Sorry......as a retired

[49jim]

teacher (9 years) and elementary school principal (22 years) and presently teaching early childhood education at local community college (5 years).......36 years in education and Merit Pay is no good.....it doesn't work....especially if it is tied to student performance....from my experience in the field....

[merh]

1. Don't be sorry.

You are not alone in your belief that merit pay doesn't work.

It is okay to disagree with the President, that's what makes our nation great, we are allowed to voice our dissent without fear of reprimand or reprisal.

[tangent90]

2. Have you developed a theory on why it doesn't work? Rewarding excellence would SEEM to be a good

thing.
(I'm not disagreeing with you, just wondering how you feel about it)

[49jim]

5. The key word

in your statement is excellence. That can be defined a thousand different ways....from district to district....classroom to classroom. I've seen some evaluations of teachers designed around a series of goals that are agreed upon between the teacher and administrator and test results are only one part. My problem is that in a classroom, the ability of students can vary substantially. If you "get" a good group of students and they test well.....you meet the goals and get the merit pay....if not, you don't get it. There is underlining unfairness in merit pay.

[tangent90]

8. Okay I get that but how does one "get" a 'good group of students'? Is it a function of

geography, ethnicity, economics...? I guess I'm asking what common denominator is found in such a group that can be measured or at least observed? I can sure grasp the truth of your comment about students' abilities varying substantially, but
what mechanism causes a radical departure from the bell curve that would be expected given a group of 40 or 50 random
subjects?

[Reader Rabbit]

10. I don't know, but kids *do* come in crops.

And it's just the luck of the draw as to what one's "crop" will be like from year to year. The bunch I had five years ago was one of the best group of kids I've ever experienced. They were brilliant, creative, and talented, and they motivated and fed off each other in the most positive and productive way imaginable. (I've saved a lot of their work, so I can sell it on eBay as soon as they become rich and famous!)

The ones I had three years ago were the laziest, most educationally-indifferent bunch of turds I've ever had to deal with. I gave up calling home by Christmas, because their parents didn't give a damn about education, either! And yet, if merit pay were the law of the land, I would have been penalized for their lack of interest and effort.

My main problem with merit pay is that it doesn't take into account that the students are thinking, breathing, feeling human beings with motivations and agendas of their own.

Hope this makes some kind of sense.

[DeschutesRiver]

72. Without opinion yet on the merits of merit based performance

But you do raise an excellent point. I can attest to the fact that all "students" come in crops. One example - I know my law school class was bright, outspoken, with quite an edge, and our professors all said they had fun with the challenge of it all. They also flat out stated the following year's entering class was so boring, dull witted, lazy and without the ability to think or live outside the box that it made them want to retire from teaching, esp coming directly after a much more creative group like us. Saud it was a daily let down to have to deal with dullards like that.

Apparently, we kept them on their toes, whereas some other classes made them quite angry with their attitudes and lack of abilities. I admit it surprised me to hear that talk - I'd just assumed that all entering classes must be the same to them, since their criteria for admission hadn't changed. I figured you have to be bright to get there mostly, so this must be how it is when people like that start living, breathing and interacting together for a large part of each day.

Besides, it didn't occur to me that they'd form opinions like that about us students. Sure, I thought we had the most fun you can have legally, but it didn't seem to me at the time that it was anything out of the ordinary for the profs. It was just us being us and then the whole thing just spun into something larger than us that had a notable life of its own. It was a really good time.

[noamnety]

106. We ran into that in my elementary/high school.

My older sister skipped a grade and moved into a class that had a number of really bright students.

My parents decided not to have me skip because my class happened to have a circle of bright kids that challenged each other. The class ahead of me was an off year and they felt it would be a step down for me to be with them. I stayed with my age group and just skipped the last couple years of high school instead. The dynamics were just randomly different from one year to the next.

[Maine-ah]

97. I'm not a teacher

my father was. My brother flunked his class too. He was a student not interested in learning the class, even with his father being the teacher.

As I look back at my years in HS, I can certainly see that some of the classes I attended had a large majority of students that couldn't give a shit, and other classes that wanted to learn. I had a difficult time through school, but I always did the best when I was surrounded by other students that wanted to learn. I always did poorly in classes where the majority didn't care.


I think merit pay is BS, and if my father was still alive, I bet he'd say the same thing.

[noamnety]

38. In large part it is random.

In one year at the same school, I can teach two sections with the same curriculum, same teaching methods, drawing from the same ethnic, geographic and economic population. In one section, I can have students who are overachievers, do all their work on time and excel at it, and in another section I can be assigned students who are generally unresponsive in discussions, don't do any homework, and have lower skills in general coming into the class. I've done an activity one hour where the kids looked like they were going through the motions or won't participate at all, and then the very next hour, same activity, the kids are enthralled - and saying things like "wow, that's amazing, wait - go back! I want to see that again!"

I've been lucky because my observations have happened to fall in the classes that seem engaged - but I'm aware the impression could have been very different, based on dumb luck.

Sometimes the determining factor might be something as seemingly invisible as "Third hour is when the remedial English class meets." If I and coworker teach social studies, and I have a third hour section and the other teacher has prep that hour, I will have at least one section that doesn't have kids with reading problems, and my test scores will artificially make me look like a better teacher.

Sometimes I get a section where a third of the kids are pulled once a week for the social worker's "group." Those are often the lowest achieving kids to start with, and when they miss 20% of my class, it has an impact on the way I can teach that section. Just having a prep first hour changes the success rate of our individual students. First hour in my school has double or triple the absence and tardy rate of all the other hours.

Think of siblings - same parents, same culture, same upraising. Sometimes one can be a wild sort with no interest in school, while the other loves studying and is a model student. Think of Bill and Roger Clinton, Jimmy and Billy Carter. You could look at one and deduce their parents (teachers) were great (deserved merit pay), and then you look only at the other and could deduce the parents don't deserve merit pay. But the parenting methods weren't really the determining factor, were they?

[YvonneCa]

71. Many ways. One would be 'well-funded district with many resources...

...and parental support' versus "under-funded school district with scarce resources where parents love and want the best for their kids, but work two/three jobs just to feed them'.

Another...private versus public schools (private schools select their students, public schools teach every child).

Another...'Squeeky-wheel teachers who complain loudly when their class is too large, has too many 'problem kids', or too many low performing kids. They end up with a different group dynamic than the teacher who quietly accepts and does his/her best to teach every child.

Another...Some states/counties/districts have higher populations of students with special needs, or English Learners, etc. who often score generally lower than states/counties/districts student populations without those needs. The assumption has been 'It must be the teachers' fault.' But one group started with a higher mountain to climb.


The list is endless.

[Ms. Toad]

103. In my case, it was a function of what I was teaching

When I was teaching, students were required to have two years of math to graduate. Many were not ready for algebra, so the school added a second level to the existing class I fondly called, "1+1=2." The class they added I fondly called "Now that you know 1+1=2, what do you do with it?" That is not much of an exaggeration. The high school textbook started with basic elementary school level arithmetic - adding, subtracting, dividing, and multiplying whole numbers. Negative numbers, exponents beyond 2, or abstract reasoning were never introduced. The applications were things like figuring out how much you should be paid for 12 hours of work at $5.75 an hour, and the textbook did not even include such concepts as deductions from your paycheck for FICA, local, state, and federal taxes. Similarly the shopping problems never dealt with sales tax, or mailing costs for mail orders.

I taught the second class, which was routinely populated with (1) kids who were really struggling to master the concepts and (2) kids who were very bright, but missed so much school (suspensions, home problems, truancy) that the few 100% papers they turned in couldn't pull the majority of 0% (missing) papers up to a passing grade. I had some of the kids in the second class several years running. The various forms of public aid the families of these kids were on complicated the picture, since they require some level of school participation. Students who had no hope of graduating and who didn't really want to be there, often stayed until they aged out of school around age 21, rather than dropping out at 16-18. These students invariably ended up in the two lower level classes that would satisfy the graduation requirement - repeatedly - since if they failed it the first time they still needed it to graduate and were not eligible for any other math class.

As you might imagine, balancing the real needs of the first group while not completely losing the interest of the second group (already bored silly with school) was a challenge. The failure rate in that class, including my personal failure rate, was routinely between 40% and 75%.

I also taught computer programming. It attracted the brighter kids in the school and it was a subject they were taking because they were interested in it. I rarely had more than one or two students fail that class in any given year.

So the class you are teaching determines a lot about whether a given class radically departs from the bell curve.

As for a given teacher's tendency to have a collection of classes that radically departs from the bell curve, that varies from school system to school system.

In many schools, longevity is rewarded with "good" classes. Newer teachers often have to put their time in teaching the classes no one else wants to teach. In my department, all teachers were assigned a minimum of at least one of the first two classes I described. To my mind, that is a much better system, since at least some of the students who are struggling will get the benefit of experienced teachers rather than always having the ones fresh out of college. Many teachers don't like it because you can never put your time in and escape from teaching the really hard classes.

In my case, I radically departed from the bell curve overall partly for reasons of my own making. Every year I had either 2 or 3 sections of the really hard classes. Although I would have had at least one every year, my consistent load was heavier than my colleagues because I was one of the few teachers who really made an effort to balance the needs of both extremes I got in the class, and to attempt to make it relevant to their lives.

I actually set up the classroom as if it were a job. Being tardy to class, bathroom passes, days they were out sick all cost them time without pay (since most of these students will not be working jobs with paid sick leave). They calculated their "paycheck" every week, including all applicable deductions using the charts real employers use. They saved up to buy things they needed, using the real costs reflected in advertisements from local papers - and including sales tax (or financing costs). I also tossed the hand work - if these students couldn't do basic arithmetic by the time they were in high school, it was a waste of time for me to keep drilling them on it. They were provided with calculators, and we focused on estimating to check the answer the calculator came up with. (Using calculators for lower level classes is fairly relatively routine, now, but at the time I implemented it in my classroom I really had to fight to be permitted to do it, and my students were forbidden from using calculators on the final standardized exam so they could be compared with all the other classes that were not permitted to use calculators). Although I was a little afraid the first year, my students routinely outperformed those of my peers on the end of the year standardized test. (My theory is that freeing them from the mind numbing hand calculations allowed them to focus on the application, so they actually learned how to figure out which calculations were needed.) Anyway, because I was "successful" (to the extent you can call the pitiful pass rate I had successful) I was "rewarded" with more.

There are other variables - but it's already a long answer.

From an educational standpoint that makes sense - if a teacher manages to have "success" in classes where success is hard to come by, that success should be shared with as many students as possible. From a personal perspective, it probably contributed to the fact that I am no longer teaching. In the hardest year, after cutting out as much as I could cut out and still feel I was providing a level of quality I could live with, I regularly put a 100 hours a week into my job. I couldn't keep that up forever, particularly combined with the emotional challenges associated with teaching classes which the majority of students resented being forced to take (and from an educational standard did not serve their needs).

[Terran]

113. A friend of mine teaches 2nd grade

and every year he tells me, "I've got such a great group of kids this year" OR "I've got a bunch of dumbs kids this year." It's just chance, and has little or nothing to do with demographics except maybe in the very long run.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Exactly. Failing students who NEED to be failed because they

cannot do the work is a sure was of NOT getting merit pay - merit pay goes to those who have the best 'success' rate. Therefore, really good teachers who have moderate success with very difficult students will never be rewarded, while average teachers in good school systems teaching priviledged kids will get the rewards - never mind that the teacher in the other school worked harder and really accomplished more.

[Joe Fields]

20. that sounds like a cop out to me.

I've managed people for many years, and often I haven't had the luxury of hiring who worked under me. It's my job to train, teach, support, evaluate and discipline, just as a teacher in a classroom, only these have been working environments. If I don't do a good job, I get fired. If I do, then I keep my job, and if I'm lucky I get a raise. Why should you be any different?

[readmoreoften]

23. Because it doesn't work like that in education.

You're not getting students to do a job for the narrow goal of performing a task for a corporation. You're trying to enrich their minds in a broader sense.

[AwakeAtLast]

26. You are managing adults

If you cannot understand that there are fundamental differences between children and adults, then I thank God you are not a teacher. If the adults you are to train, teach, support, evaluate and discipline are not working out, you get to fire them. Last I checked teachers are not able to do that.

[Gabi Hayes]

32. so...your company, uh, FIRES your under-achieving employees?

just as public schools hire their students, right, and get rid of the ones that don't cut it, right?

thank you

now go spend some time in an actual classroom before you create such ignorantly fallacious analogies

take your RW/shools-as-a-business educational model back to Ayn Rand's ghost, or someone equally in tune with reality

[Joe Fields]

39. lol you just want to protect your lazy ass.

it's a cop out and you know it. I know about the education system. you aren't fooling me one bit. where else can mediocrity succeed for an entire career, but in education? It takes hard work to be a really good teacher, and there are damned few of them around. I'm not blind.

[LanternWaste]

58. I would imagine that

I would imagine that "it takes hard work to be a really good student, and there are damned few of them around..."

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, right?

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Tell me how to hire and fire my students

and I will gladly use your model. :crazy:

[Joe Fields]

70. don't give me that crap. If you can't figure out how to be a successful teacher,

you have no business teaching. Go work on an assembly line.

On edit: Joe Clark figured it out, with almost no budget. I'm sick of excuses. Learn how to teach! The rest comes to you.

[kwassa]

75. .

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. Joe Clark? The baseball bat asshole?

He got fired. Thank God.

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you?

[eridani]

33. If they'd just let teachers lay off kids who won't perform, merit pay would be great n/t

[LanternWaste]

56. Does HR screen the applicants, and take the best from the pool that applied?

In your line of work, does HR screen the applicants and then take the best from the pool that applied? Do your trainees want the job? Do your trainees realize that if they do not perform well, their dependents may go hungry... or worse? Are the applicants adults rather than children?

Those concepts I believe, are both precise and relevant differences.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Rewarding people for excellence is fine.

And if you know of a way for that to happen with teachers I'd like to hear it.

Because standardized testing is a damn stupid idea.

The only thing it measures is the stupidity of its advocates.

[tangent90]

11. Well, it shouldn't be rocket science. We don't seem to have much trouble grading

most human endeavors based on results. Maybe standardized tests aren't the best way, but what other yardstick is anywhere close to being accurate? I don't think non-standardized tests would be an improvement, do you? I believe teachers (and cops) are criminally underpaid...which is why so few of them are worth a shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Standardized tests grade the teacher on someone else's results.

It's like paying the weatherman based on how nice the weather is.

"what other yardstick is anywhere close to being accurate?"

How about paying them based on the personal opinion of the person's superior, annual cost of living increases, and seniority. The same way it works in 99% of other jobs.

[tangent90]

15. That's a really horrid analogy...the weatherman has no control over the weather.

I think seniority is about the worst possible way to judge someone's performance...having absolutely no relation to it. It just rewards mediocrity. COL increases are fine but don't actually have anything to do with how good a job is being done and the opinions of "superiors" are always dependent on subjective judgment and job politics.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. And a teacher has little control over their student's performance on standardized tests.

What do you do for a living, tangent90?

[tangent90]

27. I am a flight instructor.

My job performance is pretty easy to evaluate...my students don't crash and kill themselves and/or others, and many of them have gone on to become fine military or commercial pilots.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. How long have you been doing it?

[tangent90]

29. Since 1964

I'm very good at it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Is that so?

Are you better at it now then when you started?

[tangent90]

34. Probably a little bit...but it's not so much "better" as "current" that matters.

I'm also a degreed aerospace engineer (you will probably not believe that at which point I will race home tearfully, assume the prenatal position and turn the electric blanket up to 9 in deference to a dis of such magnitude) and have taught many college level courses in (surprise! colleges!) and in the military.

In any case, I am decidedly not a fan of the system we've adopted the last few decades that reduces education to the lowest common denominator in the name of 'equality.'

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. No, I'll believe it.

You sound like somebody who hasn't changed much in the last 45 years.

[tangent90]

43. You would be wrong. 45 years ago I was a republican. Barry Goldwater was actually

a personal friend of mine in the early 1960s. Senator Tom Coburn also happens to be a friend of mine even though we disagree on most issues. That's fine with me, though, because I've gotten some nice hugs from him and so has President Obama.
:D

[eridani]

35. And your town requires the entire adult population to become certified pilots? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. I bet his students get ultra low insurance rates on their private planes.

Because the insurance companies are so confident in their training.

[tangent90]

45. Are you talking about hull insurance? (The equivalent of auto comprehensive)

they base their rates on certificates given by the FAA and experience. If you mean life insurance, they pay less than doctors or carpenters. I wouldn't expect you to know that, of course.

[tangent90]

44. No, of course not. Why would you ever imagine such a bizarre thing?

???????????

[eridani]

60. Because you are implying that your experience is directly comparable

--to that of K-12 teachers. Teaching is teaching, right?

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. Bingo!

[LanternWaste]

59. I imagine your students want to learn.

I imagine your students want to learn. I imagine your students pay money for their training and are adult enough to not want to waste that money by goofing on in class. I imagine many of your students have their sights set on grand yet realistic ambitions for themselves and their families. I imagine that once in the air, life and death are not meaningless concepts which could easily be fudged.

I also imagine there are not too many students of which that would be an accurate descriptor.

[Reader Rabbit]

17. In teaching, paying based on longevity *is* a form of merit pay.

Particularly when you look at the attrition rate in the profession. Huge numbers leave teaching within the first five years. Those who choose to stick it out should be rewarded.

Plus, the more experience you get, the better you teach. I have so many tricks in my tool box now that I really could have used in my first few years. And not a year goes by where I don't think, at some point, "Okay, next year I'll do it this way!" That's what makes good teachers, but sadly, it's completely unquantifiable, so longevity pay is the only equitable solution.

[Joe Fields]

21. pretzel logic, at best. Any dummy can stick it out for five years.

that has no bearing on the quality of performance.

[MadHound]

68. Well then why don't you try it?

C'mon, if any dummy can stick it out for five years surely you can do it. We need teachers in this country, so step up there and see how well you can do it. After all, you've trained underlings and employees, what's so hard about it, except for the fact that these are kids, who are wired in ways entirely different from an adult.

Five years:rofl: I'm willing to put some good money down that you couldn't last five weeks in my local middle school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. 5 hours in my inner city school

5 minutes in my classroom

And I would leave great lesson plans. Really :)

[MadHound]

89. Lesson plans? Aw you are being too kind.

I was assuming that since he had trained underlings and employees he would know all about lesson plans and such. Besides, he should have his evenings taken up with doing lesson plans for the next day, give him the true flavor of just what a teacher does:evilgrin:

I just love when people stick their foot in it and think that anybody can just step in and teach. The sad thing is that none of them actually take the time and effort to find out all that is involved in teaching, instead they just go on pontificating.

Perhaps we should give this guy something a bit easier, like doing a full blown Hunter-style lesson plan or an in-depth RMI. My guess is that he would still fail at either one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. I have a few other ideas

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5229117&mesg_id=5229117

[Reader Rabbit]

78. "Any dummy can stick it out for five years."

Given your confidence in this assertion, I can only assume you are speaking from personal experience.

[YvonneCa]

73. You are starting out with pretty low expectations...

...there. Sad.

[woo me with science]

76. Nonsense.

You can make the argument that some standardized tests don't measure what they are purporting to measure, and you can argue successfully that others are biased or irrelevant. However, in some areas they are extremely useful. For example, if you want to know who in your class of fifth graders has mastered basic arithmetic, you can hardly do better than a good standardized test to do it.

Of course there will always be exceptions to the rule...the kid who had a family crisis that morning, or who had a blistering headache. But for the most part, the tests are going to show you who knows the stuff and who doesn't. Not to mention that the kid who REALLY has it down is probably going to be able to pull through and do decently on the test even WITH a blistering headache.

[NashVegas]

40. Most Teachers Cannot Control What's In Their Classrooms

It's easier to teach a roomful of students who have their own motivations to learn than it is a roomful of kids who think school is worthless.

It's the latter group who needs great teachers more. Self-interest is going to have more teachers looking for the first group.

[Dinger]

74. Some Charter Schools Can

Public schools can't, not even a little bit.

[Dinger]

46. Merit Pay Is Fine, But It Assumes The Teacher Is

the only factor in a child's classroom performance. Parents' involvement is big, real big.

[dcindian]

50. Because each class of children are different.

In smaller schools we have good years and bad years same teachers just different outcomes.

Why would that be?

Not everyone has the same ability.


Also there are different difficulties in classes. Any teacher who takes on a hard course for students is likely to have less pay and we will end up encouraging teachers to take the easy way out.

[roguevalley]

108. if you have children that can't perform for a variety of reasons no

matter how heroic you work, then it doesn't work. It also encourages cheating. Penalizing teachers and kids who have huge factors working against their success is wrong.

[Reader Rabbit]

3. Isn't it funny how nearly 100% of teachers are against this, but...

...most people who are for it have never spent time in a public school classroom?

[Joe Fields]

22. can you back that statement up with statistics?

if not, I flat don't believe that is the case.

[readmoreoften]

24. Why don't you do your own research? You might want to start at teacher's unions

and reading white papers produced by graduate departments in the education field.

[Joe Fields]

41. you made the assertion, pal, not me.

cite the white papers.

[iamthebandfanman]

52. hes not your pal, buddy.

he shouldnt have to do anything for you.
if you dont want to learn something, then you dont have to.

guess i should doc his pay for not teaching ya eh ?

[Joe Fields]

57. don't make assertions, that can't be backed by fact, pal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. LOL!

:rofl:

[Joe Fields]

80. is that the best you can do?

I expect a better comeback from a Kansas Citian.

Look, if you can't handle the truth, then duck.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. Fuck You

and have a terrific day too. :)

[JuniperLea]

110. Whoa...

I was sent to the principal for using that language... just saying.

[Reader Rabbit]

79. Actually, *he* didn't make the assertion, *I* did.

It seems as if your teachers didn't do a very good job of teaching you to read. Or research. Or do any of your own work.

Methinks I have stumbled upon the reason for your low opinion of teachers!

[Joe Fields]

81. I know exactly who made the assertion, but they decided to stick their nose in this.

[Lost in CT]

42. I think the problem is that most people who are for it have spent

12 years in a public school classroom.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. I have been offering for years

Come and do my job for one day then I will listen to your ideas about how to improve our schools.

[Joe Fields]

82. I know all about the job of teachers.

Most of them do it with their eyes closed. How about you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. My eyes are wide open enough

to know you are an asshole.

[Zodiak]

114. Yeah, you are ignore-worthy

really ignore-worthy.

What a prick!

[Lucian]

4. I was thinking about going to school for teaching...

but if they're going to get Merit Pay, then I don't want to do it.

[49jim]

6. That shouldn't

defer you....there still would be a base salary established.......if you truly want to make a difference go for it.....it would be a while before something like this would filter down to

[mediaman007]

13. Teaching is an art form. Its not how many widgets you can build.

Its recognizing a situation and knowing which solution applies. Being a good teacher requires dedication (long hours), creativity (inventing new lessons), problem solving (never ending) and decision making (many a minute at times). On top of that one should know the curriculum, be aware of the latest trends, and have skills in personal relationships.

If a teacher is good, there is not enough money to pay them. They love the job and can't get enough.

If someone can't teach, they shouldn't stay in the profession so long that they have no other career choices.

Merit pay is useless in this situation.

[MadHound]

14. Yep, merit pay is a really foolish idea

If they want to start attracting the best and the brightest to the education field, then they need to start paying for it. Pay teachers like you would MBA's, doctors or lawyers and you will wind up with more highly skilled teachers. Right now, for the most part, our best and brightest take one look at teaching and unless they are truly driven to go into teaching they find some other profession because the pay is so bad.

Merit pay is one of the worst things you could do to the profession. Education is one of the areas I have some serious disagreements with Obama on. It seems like he wants to continue this slide of making education a two tiered system, private schools for the those who can buy their way in and public schools for all the rest. It truly concerns me the direction he is wanting to take education.

[FLyellowdog]

16. Retired after 25 yrs. of teaching...

20 in elementary and last 5 in special ed. Some personal opinions:

...The "best" teachers aren't made, they are born. Giving them merit pay as a reward is wonderful, but it won't make them better than they already are and it won't make the mediocre teachers strive to be the "best". Teaching is a field where one does what one wants and is able to do...sometimes that results in outstanding teachers and sometimes it results in only poor teachers.

...Merit pay would work only if each individual child is a part of the formula to determine "Merit" teachers. Measuring growth and improvement from one point to an appropriate outcome of EACH student is the only fair way to judge a teacher's performance. Unfortuately, no one has developed such a system. Granted, testing could be a portion of this system, but only if used for individual pupils and across measureable timelines.

...I think President Obama assumes that the field of education is smart enough to figure out how to create a workable merit pay system, but he doesn't understand the current definitions of "Merit Pay" as many administrators define it. Rewarding teachers is a good thing...just not the way we've been trying to do it for years.

I'm just saying...

[Fire1]

18. The President got thousands of posts from educators across

the country on his preliminary website, 'change.gov,' regarding the issue of merit pay. Every other post expressed this exact sentiment. Mine, included. He nor Mr. Duncan seem to understand the pitfalls of this program. Hopefully, they'll listen to the unions.

[Dinger]

47. If President Obama And arne duncan Think They (& Other Dems) Can Do Without

the support of teachers' unions, let 'em see what happens.

[Fire1]

53. The unions across this nation got him elected, for that matter.

But the Obama administration doesn't seem to want to hear from the voices of experience.

[Dinger]

107. Yes, It Does Seem That Way (nt)

[dysfunctional press]

25. the parents/home environment is too big a factor that's not even part of the official equation...

i don't necessarily think that merit pay is a good solution...but- i WOULD like to see something happen that makes it easier to get rid of the truly crappy teachers who shouldn't have been there in the first place, irregardless of unions and tenure.

[AnnInLa]

31. Retired teacher here too

who does NOT think merit pay is a good idea. Education at the local level is highly political, and if principals or supervisors are given the responsibility of determining who is a "good" teacher and who is a "bad" teacher (for money), then all of that principal's buddies and ass-kissers will get the reward money. I know this to be true, I've seen it too many times....the friends of the higher-ups get the perks, the good assignments, the good "duties," and the school union reps (I was one) get the shit-duties, the difficult students and the hard schedules. Right now principals and supervisors evaluate teachers on a regular basis, but they have to be pretty damn specific and accurate to give a teacher a bad evaluation...bad evals can be appealed to a higher-up.

We teachers do not get paid to evaluate our peers, so to add other teachers to the evaluation process is stupid. It is just not our job, and turns teachers against teachers.

And how do you judge teachers who teach Special Education, or "behavior disturbed," or off-campus "alternative classes?"

The NEA, which is not officially a union, but has union-like rights, has done more for teachers than any other entity. NEA protects our right not to be used as political footballs, and our personal rights (as workers) in the education system.....and the educational systems CANNOT stand NEA's involvement with their school personnel. This is yet ANOTHER attempt to get the "unions" out of the system. I taught for many, many years in a profession that was 95% made up of women employees....yet the principals, supervisors, and school board higher-ups were 95% men. How do you think the teachers were treated when the principals, and others had ALL the power....to hire, to fire, to transfer at will, to hand out good schedules, assignments, extra-curricular activities, and on and on and on....and the employees had no power whatsoever. NEA taught us how to change that, and for the teachers to take power so that we, on the front lines, had an EQUAL say-so in our local educational system. This new (not really new) idea of merit pay is to restore the inequality of power again, over employees who have recently realized we had RIGHTS. Bah humbug.

[tangent90]

48. Oddly enough (maybe not), another poster here agrees with you about merit pay but

for the exact opposite reason...he thinks supervisors SHOULD be the arbiters of who gets merit pay. There are some serious disconnects going on here...
:shrug:

[iamthebandfanman]

49. totally agree with you

as someone who had a mother for a teacher and was subsequently around teachers all my life..

the idea doesnt work.

you cant force a kid to learn if they dont wish to....

and then beyond that, who decides if a teacher is good or bad?

i hope not more standardized testing.

[TahitiNut]

51. Here's my 'take' on it ...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/593

:shrug:

But I only taught (high school math) for a year ... a long, long time ago.

[Dinger]

54. Mine Too : )

Thanks for posting that:)

[GeorgeGist]

55. Sorry you're still teaching ...

in my experience most principals make lousy teachers.

[goclark]

61. Excuse me........

that has not been my experience.

I was a teacher and a Principal.

That is a pretty broad brush you are using.

[GiveMeFreedom]

62. Merit Pay? My wife is a Teacher....no,no,no

My wife has been a teacher for 19 years. I am an unemployed construction worker, the union hall is full. If it was not for my wife's job, we would be homeless. She works hard, putting in long hours at home and weekends to grade tests, make lesson plans and do all the other stuff she has to do to keep her job. Her crop of kids change from year to year and so do the programs they must follow, that are mandated. Also her boss,(principal), changes more often than not and this leads to starting over again and again. She is constantly required to juggle all this and keep up to date with the demands of the boss, parents and kids.

If politicians want to institute merit pay for teachers, should not that apply to them? I know they can be voted out of office, but many have been in congress for decades and look where we are now.

I have often thought that if education want's to attract the best and the brightest, then education needs to offer the salaries that a large corporate entity would in attracting the top graduates of our academic institutions. To become a teacher costs no less than to become an engineer, yet the rewards are much different. Now I know to be licensed in each of the fields takes a different route, the original cost for that BS or BA degree is basically the same.

[upi402]

66. Hope the hall starts moving for you soon.

Thanks for letting me know how much time she spends. I always fgured they were underpaid, but didn't know about the extra hours. Seems like they never work a 40 from my side. If the wind changes direction... day off! lol

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Why are you sorry?

:shrug:

[Bill McBlueState]

69. Somehow students can tell which teachers are the good ones

In every school and academic department I've been in, it's common knowledge which people teach well and which ones don't. (And there's no obvious correlation with their students' test scores.) There has to be some way to quantify that so the best teachers can be rewarded.

[Canuckistanian]

77. There are too many variables if it's tied to student performance

In fact, it's downright DISCRIMINATORY if it's tied merely to student performance.

Such a system would GUARANTEE that privileged and academically advantaged (read WHITE) students get the teachers with the most "merit pay".

Thus ensuring that the "have-nots" get the bottom of the barrel teachers.

That's NOT the way to bring up lagging schools. It merely keeps the status quo.

Mission Accomplished.

[XemaSab]

88. And yet your post is bizarrely punctuated.

n/t

[noamnety]

92. I heard Obama on the radio yesterday

telling a restaurant worker he didn't need change back. His word choice: "We straight."

Do you think he always speaks that way? Or is it possible he engages in a bit of code-switching depending on the audience and environment?

[Midlodemocrat]

93. WTF?????

Could you be more bigoted?

[noamnety]

98. I'm guessing you didn't hear the public radio piece about it.

They did a segment about it, and why the newspaper reported opted to quote him as "We're straight" rather than quote him directly.

Why do you suppose they rewrote the quote?

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. How is that comment bigoted?

[tekisui]

94. 'Code-switching'??? What the hell are you talking about?

Do you always use right wing smear memes?

[noamnety]

99. It's a linguistic skill

Not a smear. Public radio (NPR or PRI, not sure which) did a surprisingly decent piece about his ability to relate to different groups. The callers were talking about their own experiences changing their dialect in subtle ways depending on who they were speaking to. The linguist they had on was hilarious talking about her own childhood. :)

[XemaSab]

96. I spent three and a half years in the Oakland public school system

If Barack's bilingual, that's cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics

[noamnety]

100. I would stick with AAVE

rather than referring to it as Ebonics. It's a little more accepted as a linguistic term.

Aside from that side-note, though, the concept of code-switching has strong parallels in how we write for different audiences.

There was one post in this thread (too lazy to look and see who wrote it) that was a classic example that made me laugh. They were bragging about how they always present themselves in a professional way, I think implying even on the internet, and they ended their post with "ffs." :rofl:

It was funny, but it was also a great illustration of how we do so much of that switching so automatically that we can be unaware of it - even as we are discussing it directly.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

95. I had a conversation yesterday with a new customer. He's a retired high school English teacher from

Canada. I cannot even count the amount of times he said "anyways".

[JuniperLea]

109. That's a pet peeve of mine...

I always thought that "anyways" wasn't even a word because it was verbally beaten from my vocabulary by my mother and a couple of teachers (I thank them all for this). Imagine my chagrin when I found it in the dictionary! It's very old school... I hate the word more than you can know.

Main Entry: any·ways
Pronunciation: \-ˌwāz\
Function: adverb
Date: 13th century
1 archaic : anywise dialect : to any degree at all
2chiefly dialect : anyhow , anyway

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

115. It's one of mine too. He is apparently a bright man but it was such a turn off. He used it as some

people use "you know", another "favorite" of mine, not!!!!

[WhollyHeretic]

90. Merit pay will fill the schools with dishonest and underhanded teachers

The good ones will be drummed out. The teachers who will get rewarded will be ones who "help" there students with exams or teach only to the standardized tests. The "successful" teachers under this plan will be ones who manage to avoid or force the underachievers out of their classrooms. You'll see a big jump in dropout rates. This has to be one of the dumbest ideas I've seen in regards to education.

[raccoon]

101. And encourage grade inflation. More of it, that is. nt

[OneBlueSky]

104. I just don't understand how you determine merit . . .

it certainly can't be based on student ratings of their teachers . . . and it can't be based on test results, since student populations (home and economic background, cultural differences, parental involvement, etc.) vary so much from school to school, district to district, state to state . . .

to have merit pay, someone has to determine merit, and they have to base their determination on something . . . I'm not at all sure who would do the determining, or what they would base their determinations on, that could possibly result in an equitable system . . .

[CRK7376]

105. I agree, merit pay does not work well

and should not be used in the public school system. Having 13 years of teaching experience in a rural high school I understand the ups and downs and lack of pay. I sometimes had great classes, other times students that could not care the least bit about my subject and their education. How do you determine Merit Pay based on computer generated class roster/schedules, where you have to cover 400+ years of US history to kids that don't care in one semster of 90 minute classes interupted by pep rallies, candy sales, magazine sales, year book orders, communicate with parents that will not attend requested conferences or answer phone calls about their child, and all the other issues that pop up, including a language barrier for Hispanic or other migrant populace? Just wondering. I was lucky, before leaving the teaching profession, most of my kids passed EOC tests, I would probably qualify for Merit Pay, but hated the thought of it. I was the "hard" teacher versus the lady next door that showed movies and lead discussion sessions day in and day out that also qualified as a Merit Pay teacher....different teaching styles I know, but by what measures do you qualify for Merit Pay. I'm not in favor of Merit Pay; too many variables that the teacher can not control.

[JuniperLea]

111. Sorry, as a person who went through 12 years of public schooling...

I'd like to be able to sue their smarmy asses for the education I did NOT receive.

I was routinely sent to the principal's office for arguing with teachers because they were idiots who couldn't even understand the text books. I would argue with them that the text they had us read was contradicting what they were trying to teach. It happened all of the time, to the point where my dad was furious and would challenge the teachers to have the "argument discussion" in his presence. I always won... and I mean always.

Anyone else in the school who spent that much time in detention, in the principal's office, and even in "continuation" was eventually expelled for bad behavior. But you see, my IQ raised the mean average of the school, and they dared not expel me. So when I blew up one day and told them all to fuck off, that I was going to show up in the attached continuation school for bad kids the next day, and that they were to send me all of my classwork, and that I would complete it all without instruction of any kind and at my own pace, and that they could all go fuck themselves repeatedly, they did what I said. And I lost the last little bit of respect I was hoping to cling to in this fiasco. Side note: I received straight B's that semester, without help from teachers, and a full seven weeks ahead of my class.

IMHO, teachers should be tested yearly. Not only on course study, but reading comprehension, and personality to boot.

The fuckers I knew cost me an education. Thankfully, the college professors and education professionals I met up with after that were more understanding... and clearly more intelligent.

Then, to top it off, my daughter's third grade teacher asked that all of the parents return all of the work sent home so she could record the grades again... because she had lost them. Ridiculous.

Excuse the fuck out of me if I have no sympathy. The few really good teachers I've ever encountered, in my own academic career and that of my three children, were hardly the status quo. That said, it's no surprise. It's a thankless job with horrid pay. You can't attract good people that way.

[rvablue]

116. Juniper, how do you square your assertion that you didn't get an education

with the fact that you are one of the most articulate and compelling posters on DU....and a great grammarian (is that a word?) and speller to boot.

I'm not being snarky.

But all of these skills: very good writing, composition, grammar, spelling that we have in adulthood are based on the early education we received -- I believe that's proven.

So, what do you think....and like I said, I'm not trying to be controversial, I'd like to know what you think about this?

:hi:

[JuniperLea]

117. Why, thank you! How nice of you to say...

But I attribute any prowess I may possess in that arena to being an avid, no, make that rabid, reader. This did pose some grammatical problems due to my penchant for "The Russians" and many hours spent reading 18th and 19th century European writers. To this day I struggle, but I'll never give up.

Later on, I wrote for a fanzine, and the editor (who remains a good friend) was great about how she corrected my grammar. I was already well-versed in spell-check:) She would find a nice way to repeat what I said, or wrote, back to me in the proper format.

Still later, I had a wonderful work colleague (who also remains a very good friend) that recommended me for a correspondence and compliance position. I was flabbergasted! She mentored me quite a bit, and I'll always be grateful.

Still, I feel the bulk of what I know came from reading... incessantly.

[tjwash]

112. Bwhahahahh! Post of the day!

Were you getting bored over at 4chan or something?

Horribly worded, with grammar and punctuation errors flying out of your ass, and you expect us to believe you were a teacher?

:rofl:

Good god we would be fucked if you are indicative of what is currently in charge of our public education system.