"Teacher Merit Pay": A smoke screen that obscures the objective of having a public education SYSTEM.

[TahitiNut]

Perhaps "red herring" would be a better term. :shrug: (This is a reposting.)

By framing this as an argument about teachers and their abilities, it PRESUMES that the 'problem' (at least in large part) is teachers. What this ignores is the fact that every student has MANY teachers as he/she navigates their way through the public schools. Every student, however, has far fewer parents -- but we're not testing parents, are we? Of course not. We can't get our jollies by firing parents.

By forming this UTOPIAN vision of the 'perfect teacher' we're engaging in a common form of blame-shifting that evades any problem-solving process whatsoever. In other words, it's a COP-OUT. (That 60s term is a well-grounded one, based in that era's better comprehension of dealing with problems.) Virtually ANYONE can create a Potemkin School ... and 'prove' they have the handle on what to do. Yes ... and it'll involve privatization, prayer, discarding the 'unteachables' (i.e. handicapped and behaviorally at-risk) and, even more, PAYING MORE per student. (That latter 'feature' is rarely examined in the pink glow of utopian hallucinting.)

The framing MUST refocus on the very strengths and advantages of a public school SYSTEM itself. That's the pooling of resources and coordinated efforts and community involvement. As we slice and dice that system, creating carved-out 'alternatives' and other innovative ways of crippling the system by denying funding and other resources, we are participating in the creation of the 'problem.'

The metrics for success are clear and have been clear for a long time. Student-to-teacher ratio, funding-per-student, keeping the number of empty stomachs low, and using the students themselves as 'resources.' When schools become huge, anonymizing factories and get run with POLITICAL agendas, they fail.


But trying to voice this is like pissing into the wind. STUPID people will continue to be anointed as experts in education. Strange. :eyes:


Back to our regular DU posturing. :popcorn:

[enigmatic]

1. I agree w/ this

:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

59. Me, too.

:thumbsup:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. It's predicated on a myth that there are a wealth of bad teachers out there...

screwing up the system.

And the solution to the problem is a quick, poorly thought out fix which is bound to fail.

[fed_up_mother]

11. In my opinion, there's a significant subset of bad teachers out there

Maybe only five or ten percent of the population, but that's still way too many. We were fortunate that we almost always had good to excellent teachers, but getting a lazy bum for an entire year in elementary school can be devastating to a child's education. (With bio kids, adopted kids, and a couple of foster kids going through the local school system, I've seen the interior of public schools more than I would rather have. LOL)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. In my opinion there's a significant subset...

of bad, dumb parents out there ironically blaming bad teachers.

[fed_up_mother]

23. No doubt that is also very true. :)

I've been a very, very supportive parent of probably 95% of my kids' teachers.

And I know the difference between a teacher going through a bad time in her life and a teacher who's just a lousy teacher. One of my kids' teachers was going through a miserable divorce, and it definitely affected her attitude in the classroom a bit. However, she had an excellent track record, so we could cut her some slack. We parents and the other teachers just did what we could to support her while she went through a difficult time.

However, in all those years I will admit to attempting to have two teachers removed from the classroom, and being successful in one case.

Document. Document. Document. Get your ducks in a row. Get the support of the other parents, and go through all proper channels.

[anigbrowl]

24. These conditions aren't mutually exclusive. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Yes, but I'm not calling for merit fines for parents.

Based on how bad their students do on standardized tests.

[anigbrowl]

62. Actually, we tend to subsidize good parents

in the form of educational grants for high achievers and so forth, which usually saves the parents money. I am personally fine with reviewing our system and including incentives for measurable performance improvements. It seems to me that relative academic performance is both easier and fairer to measure than some arbitrary absolute standard.

Thus, a better-than-average improvement by a group of low performing students would reflect well on their teacher, even if their absolute academic performance were still below average. In mathematical terms, I would measure the first derivative of exam scores, rather than grading teachers on the scores themselves.

[tonysam]

43. And there are "bad" employees in EVERY sector of the economy.

You CANNOT, repeat, CANNOT "measure" teacher "performance" as it is subjective. That's why "merit pay" is a load of crap.

Teachers are fired all the time, sometimes deservedly, sometimes as a result of asshole administrators. "Tenure" is nothing but a myth.

[paulsby]

45. not so much

the bad teachers as the fact that there is no INCENTIVE for being a good teacher vs. a mediocre one. as is the case in my job, fwiw. but at least in my job, there is some incentive if you are applying for specialized unit, to point to your record of achievement. with teachers, when pay is based solely on time served and (in many cases mediocre) degrees, there is no incentive to perform.

and then there is the fact that public schools are amazingly administration heavy, with a much greater %age of school funds paid towards administrators and administrating than teaching vs. most private schools.

[HelenWheels]

63. No incentive?

How about pride in a job well done and seeing kids you are teaching succeed? How about respect from your fellow teachers and parents of the kids you are teaching. Then there is always working for advancement and promotions to department heads and even (gulp) to administration.

[paulsby]

65. fine

let me rephrase.

no official or institutional incentive.

like i said, in my career, as long as you are happy where you are (not planning on transferring), there is also no incntive to outperform. heck, there is an incentive to do LESS, because it means less liability (criminal and civil).

and if a teacher's incentive to be a better teacher is to get promoted OUT of teaching, as you mention (dept. heads or admin), then that's almost a perverse incentive, from the standpoint of a student. a good teacher teaches themself right out of a position of teaching.

by that understanding, the bad teachers WON'T do this, but the good teachers will, thus disproportionately loading the teaching side with the poorer teachers.

[roguevalley]

48. merit pay will cause teachers to cheat about what they can achieve

and cause chaos. merit pay sucks.

[Cant trust em]

3. I'd be happier with two solutions

1. Higher pay for all teachers.

2. Easier ability to get rid of bad teachers.

[TahitiNut]

6. How many different teachers did you have in grades 1-12??

:eyes: What was the LONGEST time you had with a single teacher?

[Cant trust em]

10. Long enough to know the difference between a good one and a bad one.

Long enough to have my parents meet with teachers and talk with other parents who voiced similar concerns.

Are you telling me that you've never had a bad teacher? I don't think that we do ourselves any favors by hiding the truth that some people are better at their jobs than others. Some people, despite their best intentions, are not as effective getting kids to learn than others.

[TahitiNut]

12. Try reading my OM again. You're engaging in a "chase the red herring" exercise.

:shrug:

But if it floats your boat (or meets your nutritional needs), feel free.

[aikoaiko]

15. Two questions: Are some teachers better than others? Does better teaching performance matter?

If the answer is yes to both questions, I can't see how anyone, especially teachers, would be against merit pay.


Yes, I know that the devil is in the details on how one assesses teacher performance, but thats the next debate.


oops, I meant to link this to the OP, not the subthread, but its ok here if you don't mind me jumping in.

[Cant trust em]

19. It's how good teachers should be defined is the question

It shouldn't be test scores.

[aikoaiko]

25. I disagree, there is a place for standardized test scores in assessing teacher performance

But as I understand it, the way they have been used is not effective.

I'm a college professor, and I get assessed, partially, on students'scores on standardized tests of the subject matter. Its not that big a deal.

[Cant trust em]

28. OK. But it shouldn't be the only metric.

Since I'm not an educator I'm not going to get into policy details, so I'm not really married to that idea.

[aikoaiko]

30. I completely agree, standardized test scores should NOT be the only metric

:-)

[Cant trust em]

20. Are you honestly telling me that you've never seen a bad teacher?

Just answer that question.

[TahitiNut]

46. It's irrelevant.

You seem to have a serious reading comprehension problem. :shrug:

[Cant trust em]

50. No. You just want to have the discussion on your terms.

We have a disagreement and I'm not going to let you have it within your frame.

We agree on many of the structural problems that have led to poorly performing schools listed in your OP, but I don't think that we get anywhere by pretending that all teachers are great.

[fed_up_mother]

55. Never trust a teacher or any other employee who can't talk about the bad apples.

You may speculate on your own as to why.

[EFerrari]

66. But, imho, Tahiti makes a good point: to focus only on "bad apple" teachers

give you the illusion of looking globally at our classrooms without actually making you think about our classrooms in a holistic manner.

[fed_up_mother]

68. Here's something else I wrote:

I think merit has its place along with education and experience, but I wouldn't tie it to tests.

Those teachers who inspire other teachers are generally the ones whom I would reward. There's always been a group of teachers in my kids' schools that have gone above and beyond. They're energetic, bright, motivated, and very creative. They consistently inspire their students and other teachers, and they should be paid for their outstanding work, imo. Part of the evaluation of merit could be tied to test scores, but I truly think that is the least of what makes these teachers "the best."

And teachers who accept more difficult assignments should be rewarded. Call it hazard pay, if you like.

ETA - Many teachers would fight this because someone might be unfairly left out or unfairly included to which I would reply "Life is not fair. Get used to it." My husband works in a very competitive field where his creativity and hard work are generally rewarded. Sure, over the last couple of decades he's seen unfairness. Shit happens. However, it works for the most part, and those who have created the most have been rewarded the most to the benefit of employer, employee, and client.

Many are making the argument that students are not widgets on an assembly line. Very true. However, teachers aren't assembly line workers - all doing the same thing over and over. Some go above and beyond and are true leaders in their schools. They're innovative, motivating and creative and those are the kind of people we want to lead and reward precisely because our kids aren't widgets!

[Cant trust em]

69. It's part of a bigger solution, but Tahiti wouldn't even admit to that being part of it.

There's a response to one of my posts earlier where Tahiti says that the problem isn't relevant.

[EFerrari]

74. Well, I admit that in the grand scheme of things, it isn't even visible

on my own list.

Our system is so completely effed up that we lose something like half of our teachers in their first five years. The Republicans have spent the last thirty years dismantling our public school system to the point where I don't even recognize the remains. It doesn't make any sense to me to start with the issue of teacher "merit" in that context. It's like tossing a firefighter into a block of burning buildings and asking him to not only put out the fires but to improve his time. :shrug:

[Cant trust em]

Yes. It is a small part of a bigger picture

But in the terms of merit pay, I think all teachers deserve higher pay and that bad teachers need to be eliminated or worked with to improve.

I don't feel like we make any progress by pretending that everyone is great.

[anigbrowl]

80. Not if you or your offspring is stuck in a bad teacher's class

and 'bad' can cover a variety of problems, from inability to maintain classroom discipline to lack of academic or communicative ability.

[fed_up_mother]

16. I immediately never trust any teacher who doesn't know of a bad teacher

or doesn't think bad teachers are a small, but still very significant problem in the school system. It's generally a good rule of thumb to go by. YMMV.

[madfloridian]

4. They want to turn schools into corporations. This is just one way.

Children can not be manipulated that way. They are not "products".

[dcindian]

5. There should be an anti-education tax.

Make a cartoon which shows education in a bad light pay a tax and that money goes to improving education.
Make a movie showing smart kids as geeks pay a tax and that money goes to education.
Make a law which forces teaching religion in school no more tax money for you that money goes to education.

The mass media and the right wing can continue their war on education all they want but it is time to make them help change it.

[msongs]

7. merit pay is generally invalid because.....

imposing the corporate/business model in a classroom only has value if ALL the business model conditions are met:

1) Merit pay for a manager (the teacher) depends on
2) Having employees (the students) who are screened, highly qualified, and perform their duties satisfactorally,
3) and if the employees do not perform well they get counseling and if they still do not perform well
4) they are fired.

So until teachers can pre-screen student candidates and fire those who do not perform, the business model will not work.

One cannot replicate the results without replicating the conditions first.

Msongs

[aikoaiko]

9. Even your manager models is viable.

1) Merit pay for a manager (the teacher) depends on

You could think of them as a managers...

2) Having employees (the students) who are screened, highly qualified, and perform their duties satisfactorally,

students are screened. If they don't have the intellectual capacity to learn , they can sent to special ed or special schools.

3) and if the employees do not perform well they get counseling and if they still do not perform well

"counseling" happens all the time in classrooms.

4) they are fired.

Student are failed and held back.

[anigbrowl]

17. besides...

when I think of merit pay I think not of rewarding people for absolute class achievement (since weak students would hold back stronger ones, and teachers don't get to just pick the students they'd like to teach), but more based on the median relative improvement - in short, are most of the students improving this year, in line with or exceeding the average performance?

[aikoaiko]

8. I wish we'd go to longer school days and longer school years.

We can't kept cramming everything into 7 hours in 180 days.

[anigbrowl]

18. True that. I'd go for shorter holidays, more homework.

[FiveGoodMen]

52. I say we wire the little bastards up so they can still study while they're sleeping

Why the fuck should any kid enjoy any part of life?

[Cant trust em]

21. I would have hated that when I was in school.

I'm glad that I'm not a student anymore.

[aikoaiko]

29. I think it would be a tough adjustment but this school schedule that was

developed when we were much more of an agrarian society just doesn't do the job anymore.

of course, more personnel and adjusted salaries would be required.

[Cant trust em]

33. People will get used to it.

That's honestly all I have to say.

[TahitiNut]

60. I'd entertain such changes BUT NOT on a "one size fits all (grades)" assumption.

I don't believe that EVERY grade can be treated the same in terms of either hours-per-day or number of full-contact days. Nor do I believe that the entire 'educational experience' must be circumscribed by the walls of a classroom.

[anigbrowl]

13. I'm in favor of both public education and merit pay

So are some teachers: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/18/education/18pay.html

Merit pay and school choice are not magic bullets to fix the educational system, and more than indiscriminately pouring money into it - or indiscriminately cutting budgets. I grew up in Europe, where streaming is the norm, school choice is taken for granted, and there is a lot of testing, both school-run and state-run at different times. But I'm very happy with the education I got, and with the fact that it was in a public school.

I think the debates in American education often devolve into people just projecting stereotypes onto each other from opposite sides of the political fence. A pragmatic approach to overhauling education should include looking honestly at all options and being willing to give the time of day to new concepts that have been demonstrated to work elsewhere, without losing sight of the things that do work particularly well which we want to keep.

[fed_up_mother]

26. Very good points

[SemiCharmedQuark]

22. It's a big problem I had with Obama from the campaign and now.

"Merit pay" is as lazy solution to a complex problem.

[TahitiNut]

38. It's not even a "solution" ... it's a red herring.

It's a discussion that yields absolutely NO avenue to improvement in the public education system.

It's a frequent disappointment to me that I seem to fall short in posting such an OM ... where the point seems to be missed entirely as people fall for the odor of that red herring dragged in front of their noses.

Here's another clue: In discussions about "merit pay" WHO is talking about increased funding and WHO is talking about decreased funding? The strange thing is that it's well-known that funding IS the prevalent issue in improving the public education system ... but this red herring obscures the FACT that SOME are advocating even further reductions.

It's annoying that the point is quite simple but so difficult to make clear.

[paulsby]

47. except it's not a "solution"

it is simply part of the entire package, to improve our education system, and the most important element thereof- our teachers.

i am a civil servant, union member, public employee- just like teachers.

i know firsthand how few incentives there are for achievement, and in my job there are more than there are in public education.

[ColbertWatcher]

57. "Merit pay" is as lazy solution to a complex problem. QFT. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Education shouldn't be equivalent to a production line. k&r

Producing graded, stamped, and packaged little additions to the workforce who will eagerly strive to be further graded, stamped, and packaged on their way up the imaginary ladder to paradise.

[scubadude]

31. My wife's story is illustrative of what the public school system can be.

To quote part of your post:

>The metrics for success are clear and have been clear for a long time. >Student-to-teacher ratio, funding-per-student, keeping the number of empty >stomachs low, and using the students themselves as 'resources.' When schools >become huge, anonymizing factories and get run with POLITICAL agendas, they >fail.

My wife's experience shows how good and bad it can be with public schools.

One was from a low income rural school system with about 500 kids, the other was from a high income suburban school with several thousand kids. I don't know that your huge schools argument works. At least not it this situation.

School funding here is based on property taxes.

Her experience was that in the high income area, kids came to school ready to learn, with a respect for discipline, and full bellies. Although there were several children who were mentally or physically challenged in each class, they were the minority and each one was attended to by an aide. She was treated by the children humanely, as were all the teachers, and there were almost no discipline problems. The funding for the school was off the chart, the classrooms were chock full of state of the art hardware, software and supplies. The building was modern and comfortable, heated in the winter and cooled in the summer. Further, most of the children's parents had college degrees and came to their parent teacher conferences. Class size was around 20 kids in a class.

Guess what, the kids scored very high on their state wide standardized achievement tests.

The kids from the very low income area came to school hungry, with many of them getting free or reduced cost lunches because their parents couldn't pay for them. Other more experienced teachers would transfer the "bad" students into my wife's class, with one of the students actually saying to her "They transferred me into the retard class". In my wife's class, most of the kids had mental and or physical problems, and there were 3 aids in the entire school, spread out for the 125 special ed kids. The children treated my wife terribly, shouting and cussing at her regularly, and the discipline problems were off the chart. The funding for the school was in the toilet. My wife had to bring in her own supplies, which included such items as a VCR, chalk, lab supplies (science teacher). There were almost no computers anywhere in the school except the computer lab, which to be used had to be signed out months ahead of time. The building was very old and falling apart, freezing cold in the winter and sweltering hot in the summer. Very few of the kids parents had college degrees, and many of them couldn't speak English. Only 3 of the 140 students parents showed up for parent teachers conference. Class size was around 30 to 35 kids in a class... Can you imagine a class where 35 kids of this nature were being controlled by one teacher, most of the time with no aides and no backup from the Dean?


Guess what, the kids scored very poorly on their state wide standardized achievement tests.

It the high income area the average teachers pay was in the mid $80,000 range and the low income area the pay was in the $40,000 range.

Under a merit pay system you'd be screwed in either scenario.

You cannot make the kids scores in the high income area any higher. They were already at the apex, though the teachers pay was already very high.

Without huge change you cannot make many of the kid's scores in my wife's class in the low income area any higher. Many of them could not speak English (some couldn't write their names) and were reading at a low grade school level while in high school. Many of them were already involved in the juvenile justice system. These kids need more than a teacher to improve their performance. They need food, medical attention, safe homes, and caring parents, and a change in society.

Going back to your post, in this case the large factory school was much better than it's smaller rural counterpart.

It is very sad to say that many of these children are trapped by their situations. Teachers alone cannot be expected to fix the entire country's problems.

Scuba

[fed_up_mother]

34. Very good post.

More funding and better teachers will not necessarily make drastic improvements.

On the other hand, with more funding and better teachers at least "the school" can perform to its optimum ability. That's all we can expect.

[NOW tense]

32. Merit pay has some unintended consequences.

Have you ever thought of why some schools in open enrollment areas are never very good? Perhaps it is from the segregation that naturally occurs when there is open enrollment. Everyone with the means to move their kids to the best school do. What ends up is all of the poor kids who on average test lower stay at a few schools. Where do you think the best teachers are going to go? I would go to the best school if I were a good teacher. Parents are involved with their kids, average higher scores, and the separation between rich and poor gets wider.

[HereSince1628]

35. A smoke screen to obscure that learning is an individual measure

Americans have the fuckingly stupid idea that "education" is a commodity to be purchased. It requires no active participation of a stupid fucking learner. All non-learning is the fault of a teacher.


How then is it that we blame stupid fucking fat people for being fucking obese?

Why not blame their stupidly incompetent meal preparers (yes mother, that means you!), drug store candy sellers, grocery store potato chip sellers, diet advisors, athletic coaches, primary physicians etc. etc. etc.?

Every fucking body knows that too many calories make FAT!

How the hell is individual caloric intake seen as a personal matter, and that individual academic performance is blamed on every fucking body EXCEPT the lazy ass that will not adapt their study behaviors to their personal study needs?

WTF is going on today??????????????????????/

[SemiCharmedQuark]

39. So...you blame the failure of schools on the students?

Are students in poor districts just inherently lazier than students in wealthier districts?

[Lost in CT]

41. No I wouldn't say lazier... though they may not have the work ethic role models

that wealthier students are exposed to.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

44. What do you mean by "work ethic role models"?

Wealthier students have parents who work harder than poor students?

[Lost in CT]

51. Yes... wealthier students tend to have at least one parent fully employed

often both. Their parents tend to have college degrees. They tend not to have an absent father or a parent in jail. They tend not to have exposure to someone on SSI disability or public assistance.

So yes wealthier students have greater exposure to positive role models and much less exposure to negative role models.

That is one of the invisible advantages (like parents that read for pleasure) that wealthier students enjoy.

Reality isn't fair you know.

(And of course a caveat these are generalizations and most poor people are very hard working indeed. But that doesn't change the culture differences between the upper middle classes and the truly poor)

[HereSince1628]

67. At the college level, ethnic differences in performance aren't so much laziness

as they are a consequence of a sense of culturally imbedded norms.

Students from HS on Milwaukee's westside include good students and bad students. The good students never appear in my classroom because my college targets low performing students and provides them something very akin to a final opportunity for Higher Education.

The HS of the westside of Milwaukee, under the influence of Howard Fuller, have shifted toward "direct instruction."
Direct instruction is a teaching method whose guiding philosophy is that students cannot learn by themselves. They are entrained to consider school to be akin to a job. When you punch in you do your job. When you punch out you put your job behind you. Students entrained to the notion that education requires no effort/homework/independent investment will fail in Higher Education settings. College education, even at 5th tier colleges of last resort assumes that students can, and must, learn during study episodes of self-study.

For Milwaukee and one college I have VERY statistically significant evidence to suggest that the Westside Milwaukee schools ill-prepare students for Higher Ed. The results show racial bias. I don't think that bias is intentionally a matter of hating blacks and/or hispanics. I think it is a consequence of public school orientation that ill-prepares students for the demands of higher ed.

I think Obama's notion of post-HS education for everyone is going to be SEVERELY challenged by prevailing cultural and socio-economic attitudes about the learner-centric demands of education.




Students trained to believe that they cannot learn material through self-study are LOST when they enter higher education.

[Lost in CT]

71. "Students trained to believe that they cannot learn material through self-study are LOST"

"when they enter higher education."

They are also lost when the reach the workplace...

Such schooling is cruel.

[HereSince1628]

75. Unfortunately, that philosophy guides Milwaukee school improvement.

Think about that.

A guiding philosophy, proferred by a black community leader-Howard Fuller, that targets lower socio-economic students of science with pedogocial perfudy.

[HereSince1628]

64. Yes, and no, This is the problem, and I think you've somewhat overread that.

I teach at a college in western Milwaukee run by the School Sisters of Notre Dame (SSND). SSND are also responsible for the creation of a Milwaukee High School that is ranked 25th from the bottom of ALL HS in the ENTIRE(!!!!)United States. Not surprisingly graduates of that bottom American HS _regularly_ appear in my college classroom.

During the spring semester my course enrollments include a bias toward Milwaukee westside enrollments. This is due to special progam targeted at "midtown" students who require busing to get to the campus I teach at.

Over 5 years the unit exam performance of students from Milwaukee west side High Schools is 13-20% lower than students enrolled from Milwaukee suburbs and "out" state peers enrolled in the fall term. Resolution of this distinction is possible because enrollment from the "midtown campus" (Milwaukee westside) is biased to occur in the spring term.

As part of an on-going study I have ensured that these students get the exact same instruction and exactly the same assessments. The students from Milwaukee west side HS are, in fact, statistically poorer in performance than the performance of students from HS located elsewhere in the state.

I've done nothing unusual in providing both semesters the same curriculum. I am required by my academic division to use the same discovery-based teaching methodologies in both semesters. The results show statistically significant differences between performance of students enrolled in the two semesters. "D" statistics between ethnic/and culturally distinct enrollment cohorts show significant differences. The disparity in performance is independent of instruction methods and assessment tools--students from Milwaukee West Side students perform in the lower half of their classes.

Now, you should know that the High Schools on the westside of Milwaukee operate under the philosophy of "direct teaching." That philosophy has as its central tenet the notion that students cannot come to understand information through independent study. Science assumes that understanding CAN and MUST be gained by methods that are independent of an instructor.

The assumption of the SSND in the Division of Science and Health that I teach in is that COLLEGE students are, in fact, capable of discovery and self education.

Upon intersection, these two governing assumptions crash and burn.

I have statistically significant data, over many years that show that preparation of westside Milwaukee students is inadequate to meet the demands of collge programs (nursing, dietetics, and occupational therapy) that assume that college students can succeed using "student centered" "problem based" methods assumed availalable to all college students via "independent learning."

[TahitiNut]

40. I share that ire.

One of the things I find especially annoying is the "home schooling" cult ... where parents are apparently willing to invest a significant amount of time and effort into education BUT ONLY FOR THEIR OWN KID. What a fucking waste! Not only are they HOARDING (instead of acting in a communitarian way) but they're also ignoring the synergy between students in a public education system that is part and parcel of the educational (and social) experience.

When I was in school, I tutored lower grades. Even when it wasn't a formal arrangement, we assisted each other in homework and studies. It's a FACT that students themselves are also "teachers" ... a 'resource' in the public education system. Yet it seems that the 'solutions' being peddled are almost always about DECREASING the resources ... or partitioning them in ways that prohibit sharing. That's just fucking batshit STUPID.

[HereSince1628]

73. A problem I have encountered with home-schooled kids attempting college

Keep in mind that I teach at a "college of last resort." Kids who show up in my classroom generally cannot get in to other college classrooms.

Modern "best methods" assume that people can learn thru peer interaction. Homeschooled kids get LITTLE peer interaction in academic settings. Frankly, they tend to be dysfunctional in laboratory, guided inquiry, and inter-teaching activities.

They have learned that they are the special object, the apple of the eye, of their parent's affection. These students frequently are "spoiled" to the degree that they cannot engage in an activity in which they "share" perspectives. They know their perspective, just like all the perspectives they shared with their home-schooling parent, is correct. They anger quickly upon being questioned, and frequently withdrawl from groups in which their ideas are critiqued.

[TahitiNut]

77. Yup. Indeed, if an education system is to prepare us for 'real' life ...

... then some emphasis on learning through peer interaction is absolutely essential. While I'm not a fan of the manner in which it's implemented, the "case study method" employed by the ELITE colleges of law and business place this aptitude at the highest order.

In "real" life, anything more than a journeyman level of skill will rapidly bring one to the point of realizing there's no 'teacher' to turn to when the tasks get tough. You're "it." But learning does not stop ... and cannot stop. While we have the myth of the "self-made man" or the autonomous 'expert,' such a creature doesn't really exist. EVERYONE contributes as both 'teacher' and 'student' in any Learning Community ... which is the only community that will survive over time.

[HereSince1628]

78. Unfortunately, within some subpopulations of our country the idea that learing is continuous

is NOT a belief.

For many reasons survival supplants on-going development. Within the "Hoods" of western Milwaukee, survival is more immediate than cultural reinforcement of life-long learning.

It's beyond sad. It is tragic. I've given my life to helping the kids of that place have a chance at higer ed. But the reality is I contact only hundreds of the hundreds of thousands who scrape by on the westside of Milwaukee.

[paulsby]

49. lol

there are tons of people (i argued with one about two weeks ago) who CLAIM EXACTLY what you say they don't - that obesity is NOT the fault of the individual, but is the fault of genetics, etc.

in the VAST majority of cases, obesity is caused by behavior, but don't tell that to some people. it's blaming the victim.

[HereSince1628]

53. If Americans are given an excuse from personal accountability, most will choose that

rather than being held personally accountable.

Our capitalist predelictions bias our interpretation of results.

[paulsby]

54. i agree about the excuse making

god knows i argue with it all the time.

[Waiting For Everyman]

36. I agree, TH.

I think it's tying teacher-pay to the system's failed design. Teachers can't change that. Actually it's a trojan horse of an idea, which will inevitably lower most salaries regardless of the teachers' merits.

It's a simplistic solution to a complex problem - it's a mistake. And another mistake won't help matters. It'll probably drive out the remaining good teachers.

(And btw I don't have kids in school anymore, it's just my opinion.)

[ColbertWatcher]

37. Yeah! KICK AND REC! Thank you for posting this! n/t

[tonysam]

42. The Crux of the Problem is People Who Push "Merit Pay" Schemes

believe schools can be run on a business model, but they CANNOT. Schools are not a "business"; they are not there to make a profit, and besides, kids are not widgets or keystrokes and their progress hinges on many things, most of which are out of teachers' control and therefore cannot be meaningfully measured.

"Merit pay" is another con in order to undercut not only the unions, but also the framework of civil service jobs. School district pay scales are on the "step" system, which is the most fair system. Pay is based on years of service and education, both of which can be measured, not on something as subjective and actually non-existent as "merit."

[fed_up_mother]

58. Education, service and merit can all be measured.

Education and service can be measured with the most accuracy, but the fact that merit can't be measured "as" accurately doesn't mean that its measurement should not have a place.

There are great teachers out there who inspire their students and other teachers, as well. They should be recognized and rewarded.

As for as civil service jobs - God forbid that we should compare teachers to the local idiots who - cough cough - work at our local Department of Motor Vehicles. UGH

[ColbertWatcher]

61. Exactly. There is a belief that government can be run as a business.

I'd like to know what Obama thinks about the idea that governments can be run like businesses.

Considering that he was in Chicago when the mayor at the time of the deadly heat wave (Daley) was known for trying to trying to run the city like a business.

Daley was able to worm his way out of any responsibility, but it didn't work out too well for the 700 people who died. I wonder what Obama thinks of the "government = business" model and whether it worked out for Chicago that summer?

[anigbrowl]

79. I don't think the step system is fair at all

It can be a component in a larger system, but it can also be a major disincentive for new teachers, as well as being exploited by those who are good at interpersonal politics to the detriment of those who are more academically focused.

[BlooInBloo]

70. There are 3 main components to the education problem...

In alphabetical order, they are:

Government/Funding
Parents
Teachers

They're about equally large pieces of the problem-pie.

[Mithreal]

72. Enthusiastic K&R nt

[LanternWaste]

76. I imagine that merit pay for teacher's would be...

I imagine that subjective merit pay for the amount of 'good' students a teacher 'produces' would be as unworkable as would merit pay for the amount of criminals a law enforcement officer takes in every night be...

[TahitiNut]

81. Have you noticed ...

... that EVERY proponent of "merit pay" on DU obsesses on the 'demerit pay'?? The OCD runs amok - and the sound of axes being ground makes discussion almost impossible. Nowhere is there an estimate of impact, personnel replacement, or relative contribution to making needed improvements. None. Nada. Posturing. The gross mismanagement of public education systems is addressed, not by firing those who've committed the mismanagement, but by punishing those who do the actual work.

Sound familiar?

It's stunningly similar to the 'solutions' proposed by the scapegoating mob who want to punish union workers in the auto industry, even though their TOTAL labor costs are less than 9% of the price of an American car. Yet this rabid mob can't even pause to wipe the foam from their lips as they target the most visible people who are actually responsible for absolutely EVERYTHING that's RIGHT with our public schools! Unfuckingreal.

[ulysses]

82. there *are* bad teachers out there.

I've had some and worked with some. Retired on-the-job, never should have been there in the first place, the wrestling coach who became my sophomore year history teacher...sure, they're there.

They're not legion, though, and they're hardly the defining problem in the schools, as you point out. Some of what I was going to post here has already been said, but this just struck me.

It's always amused me that, when pressed for specifics, those most vocally abusive of teachers find fault in the schools with excessive teaching to the test, poor curricula, etc. In other words, not the things *we* do, but the things district admins and politicians do. Yet, in order to solve these problems, they propose turning the determination of our salaries over to those very same folks who caused the problems in the first place.

Given two things, I'd be happy enough with a merit pay system; if it were fairly structured (measuring student progress from baseline, not achievement of a standardized canon, but good luck with that one in this age), and if it were partnered with a much more comprehensive plan to address the problems that put holes in the educational careers of a lot of kids before they even hit the school door.

[TahitiNut]

84. The conceptual framing of such discussions has been hijacked, imho.

By focusing on the skills and aptitudes of the work force itself, people are co-opted into an 'overseer' perspective -- unthinkingly allying with administration. Yet the problems in public education are mostly a creation of inept administration and a demonization of 'big government' (for tax purposes) that has steadily eroded the resourcing and funding available to the core cadre delivering the services needed.

Indeed, even in the funding, costs for conditions that interfere with public education are characterized as 'school costs' instead of what they're rightfully attributable to. For example, safety and security in some schools should rightfully be funded out of law enforcement and public safety, NOT 'education.' Likewise, providing assistance in nutrition (breakfast and lunch subsidies) should rightfully be regarded as a public welfare cost, not an education cost. In these ways, the public education system is unfairly burdened and funding eroded. It's dishonest, imho. Of all of the issues I can think of, 'bad' teachers falls far, far down the list. Sure -- they exist. But if it weren't for the fact that we also have many EXCELLENT teachers, we'd never notice the poor ones in comparison.

[MichiganVote]

83. "Saving" a system by targeting the employees as either Gods or Bad actors is silly.

The education system is composed of millions of employees who assist kids all through the country. It has never replaced parents and it never will. Schools are a conduit for education, not a "make up" test for parents.

So wise up America, the problems with education are in our homes...not our schools.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. I've seen it already.

Offer to throw a bone to good teachers, and the first reaction is to toss kids with disabilities out to give each teacher a leg up on the competition.

It ignores the fact that the competition has thrown out all her underperforming students too.

Someone upthread observed that the logic must presuppose the presence of large numbers of poor teachers. I find the "I could do it if I didn't have all these substandard kids" even worse.

The fact that children with disabilities are going to get trampled in the scramble is the best argument against merit pay.