Where did the sudden need to "fix" schools come from?

[ColbertWatcher]

And why is the only solution "merit" pay for teachers?

No one is carrying torches and pitchforks to fire all those engineers whose bridges have fallen down lately.

So, who is pushing this sudden interest in fixing schools using a "business is better" model all over the GOP-controlled media?

Who will benefit if this succeeds?

Anyone want to take a guess?

[anigbrowl]

1. Guess you weren't paying attention during the election campaign

I seem to remember quite a bit of discussion about it during the primaries, because people will pissed off with how low a priority education had under Bush.

[masuki bance]

2. Who will benefit? Good teachers.

[EFerrari]

7. Evidence?

[ColbertWatcher]

8. Only teachers who can play the system would benefit from this "fix." n/t

[tonysam]

50. Truer Word Was Never Spoken.

There might be more backstabbers, liars, and brownnosers per square inch in education than in any other field.

[ColbertWatcher]

53. I would guess that politics and show business are not far behind. n/t

[JCMach1]

140. Exactly right...

[Joe Fields]

173. Where have you been? While there are plenty of hard working

teachers who inspire their students, a large segment have been playing the system for years, shortchanging kids by punching a time clock and doing just enough to keep drawing a check. Where's the fairness in that?

[tjwash]

22. Heh...you mean the best ass-kissers will benefit.

Just like in the corporate world.

[FiveGoodMen]

23. Don't count on that.

A lot can go wrong in trying to decide who's good.

[dcindian]

84. Of course they won't

There is a limit to the funds available so merit pay will just be distribution of smaller pay for all.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

90. Teachers don't benefit from merit pay

[masuki bance]

109. "Too many supporters of my party have resisted the idea

"Too many supporters of my party have resisted the idea of rewarding excellence in teaching with extra pay, even though we know it can make a difference in the classroom,"

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

111. Sorry, but I come from a family of teachers, merit pay won't work

It is FAR too political of a job.

[masuki bance]

113. Politics is the human condition

Politics are any social relations involving authority or power.

It is not something that can be removed.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

114. And that's why merit pay will never work

[masuki bance]

123. Your argument is that merit pay does not work for human beings.

I believe you may be in a very small minority on this subject.

[damntexdem]

3. Fixing schools? The fact that our K-12 education system stinks.

What, if anything, could accomplish that is another matter. But our K-12 education IS a disgrace and needs a fix.

[ColbertWatcher]

4. You're assuming "merit" pay would fix schools. n/t

[damonm]

179. And you get this from...

"What, if anything, could accomplish that(fixing schools) is another matter. But our K-12 education IS a disgrace and needs a fix",
how, exactly? Where does DTD mention word one about merit pay?

[ColbertWatcher]

181. DTD may not have mentioned it, but the OP certainly did. n/t

[damonm]

190. Stipulated - but your question in said OP

was "why the sudden need to 'fix' schools?"
DTD answered that question, without saying a word about merit pay - YOU brought it up in the OP, and then accused DTD of assuming merit pay would do the deed, when s/he hadn't said a thing about it.
That's what had me shaking my head.

[ColbertWatcher]

205. OK, allow DTD to argue his/her own point then.

That way I won't get confused.

[seabeyond]

18. we have good schools in amarillo. have paid attention for a decade

now with kids in te system. you are in denton. i would imagine you have good schools to. specifically what is the bitch, the stink???

[Hannah Bell]

5. Same place every previous push to "fix" them has come from: the ruling class.

Different day, same shit, 100 years of it.

The masses get herded into the pens of the masters' devising.

[ColbertWatcher]

13. I want to know who will interview neil Bush and ask him how he would benefit?

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Neil-Bush-Company.html

http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/30099

And what other private, for-profit corporations will take over government contracts for education the way Blackwater did for defense.

Oh, does anyone know how that privatization experiment of New Orleans' school district is going?

[PassingFair]

You said it, Hannah....

"It is known, to the force of a single pound weight, what the engine will do; but, not all the calculators of the National Debt can tell me the capacity for good or evil, for love or hatred, for patriotism or discontent, for the decomposition of virtue into vice, or the reverse, at any single moment in the soul of one of these its quiet servants, with the composed faces and the regulated actions."

--Charles Dickens "Hard Times"

[sense]

142. This is what we got from the ruling class:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

It's a huge problem and the ruling class doesn't want to change this.. they want their system to continue to produce good Wal-Mart drones.

[EFerrari]

6. It's sexy and you can sell it. n/t

[Deja Q]

9. Oh, the school system has been broken for some time.

Metal detectors, students allowed to wear whatever clothing containing nonsense or profane slogans, allowing bullies free reign ("boys will be boys").

I thought things were bad enough 22 years ago. From what I've learned since my day in high school, even what I lived through is comparative paradise. Which is truly a horrific thing to say.


At one point, if your shoelace was partly untied or if you were caught chewing gum you'd get your wrist slapped with a ruler. These days one can... fuck it, we've all read modern day news. In short, the tables have turned and the extremism is now on the other side. And it's got to stop.

"Business is better" does not apply to schools. Just as politics and religion don't belong in schools. Education is about getting educated. Not peer playtime, getting pregnant, bullying, or anything else. It's as simple as that.

And while some claim we're falling behind and we're in a "competitive global market", is it really about educated students or is it about lowering costs to virtual-slavery levels? Or something else altogether...

Sorry for the tangents. Nothing is ever so simple. Usually.


On edit: Sorry that I didn't include merit pay. I don't think merit pay is an answer, or even relevant to the whole of the problem (which is the school's inability to do much, or the teacher's, or the parents'...)

[ColbertWatcher]

21. It is broken and merit pay won't solve the problem. n/t

[leftofthedial]

10. the need comes from 100 years of repukes relentlessly breaking them.

merit pay and standardized testing are 180-degrees WRONG approaches.

[ColbertWatcher]

17. THANK YOU!

The GOP is trying to sell their "fix" for education what they've sold to the FDA.

[EFerrari]

26. Our schools really DO need a ton of TLC and this isn't the way to go.

:(

[ColbertWatcher]

56. Exactly, so why is the GOP-controlled media pushing it? n/t

[EFerrari]

60. What are they saying? I don't watch them. I need these last ten brain cells.

[ColbertWatcher]

63. They're pushing the "merit" based crap on forums first.

Where the trial balloon's failure would not be as public.

[EFerrari]

66. This was a really stupid meme to put out there. It's just going to feed

their destructive crap.

[ColbertWatcher]

70. But, that's what the GOP is looking to do.

The GOP-controlled media ignored the financial collapse they created until it was clear who would be inheriting it.

This looks to be just more of the same crap, but on a longer time scale.

[paulsby]

29. rubbish

not everything is a partisan issue.

repub parents want good education for their kids, too.

as for standardized testing - how else do you determine what a kid has learned, and their capabilities, when comparing vastly different schools (public vs. private, different districts, etc.)

i went to a private school that was very difficult in grading. my senior year, i went to a public high school and saw that B's and A's were essentially handed out.

iow, my "b" at one school was much more difficult than my "b" at another school.

but when i applied to college, i got to take standardized tests (Achievement tests, and SAT's) that provided an OBJECTIVE measure.

my GPA at private school would have meant i wouldn't have gotten into the school i wanted, NOT because i was underqualified, but because i was competing against public school kids whose B's and A's meant something DIFFERENT.

at least standardized tests can be part of the equation, an objective metric.

now, when it comes to fundy repubs who want to teach "intelligent design" in science classes, i can agree with you , that THAT is a bunch of crap.

otoh, there are also some on the left who have done some ridiculous things with schools too (i am reminded of the seattle public schools recent rescinding of their rather ridiculous definition of "racism" that was anything but valid).

here's a pop quiz? who was the last president to send their kid to public school in DC?

answer: carter.

that should tell you something.

the "public schools are doing just fine, but i'm not sending MY kid there" philosophy.

[seabeyond]

57. i sent kids to private for 6 yrs. pulled them out, public were ahead in all subjects, academically

much tougher. better education in the public. better standards. the private allowed teacher without certificate and it was evident in some of the teachers. i have been so pleased with the kids academic studies in public schools as opposed to the private.

as for the republican parents wanting good education for their children, then it means they get off their ass and demand it of the children. the opportunities to learn are offered to the children. the children has to take responsibility if they are willing to accept the offer. i see many kids in my kids schools that are a weight on the system. the school and adm try various things with these children, and without parental support, the school cannot make a child learn.

[Thothmes]

100. Everyones experiences are different

Mine was the opposite. took the kid out of public school and sent him to a parochial school. He had gone to 2 years at a parochial kindergarden.
He met all of the first grade graduation requirements the day we planned to enroll him. School rules as they were would not allow him to enroll in second grade. We decided it was a waste of time to have the kid sit in a class room and relearn everything that he had already mastered. Sent him to a parochial elementary school. All personnel there, including the Nuns held teaching creditals issued by the State of Virginia. In high school all teaching staff had Virginia teaching certificates and masters degrees in the subjects they taught. This included the Jesuit priests that taught there.
Best money I ever spent. Kid got an excellent educations.

[Critters2]

117. repub parents want good education for their kids, too.

They don't want good PUBLIC education, though. The repugs have been trying to destroy public schools for at least a generation now. NCLB is the latest effort, not the first.

[sense]

143. Exactly right.

Dumb us all down and they'll stay in control. Simple.

[seabeyond]

148. that is so stupid. are you saying schools have total control over the upbringing of kids and parent

has no part in their children's lives once in the system. what parent doing half their job would allow a child to be dumb down. what parent hands their child over to system and then backs off educating their own child. the school is just part of a child's education, it had better damn well not be the only education that child receives. if a family does nothing within the home, where is the motivation and incentive a kid needs. they are going to simply excel, being kids, without any reinforcement from parent?

what parent would allow a child to be dumb down?

a parent not doing their job.

millions upon millions have been thru the public school systems and are successful, viable, responsible adults and to reduce all the public school has accomplished and all the people that have gone thru it to you meager comment is just truly stupid.

[sense]

160. Wow!

Could you read before commenting? Do some research? Have a clue?

Schools are dumbed down. Teaching to the test is not educating. Why do we rate so poorly when compared to other countries if our system is so great?

"What parent would allow a child to be dumb down?" Look around. It happens all day, every day.

Public school was never intended to educate the masses, it was set up by the rich to turn the lesser folk into compliant, non-thinking, non-complaining drones. Wal-mart employees.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[seabeyond]

167. you really do chose the soame old tired argument as the repugs so they could make school a corporate

enterprise.

not only have i dont the research, i have also done the field experience. teaching to the test is bad. every teacher and adm i have talked to does not like, agree, or want the tak test. not a one. they are not the one to demand it but the are the ones that have had to implement it in the schools. have you been a participant in this system. watched the schools over the years trying to balance teaching to a god damn test that govt forced on them, yet keeping the other course to keep a well balanced student? they do all kinds of things addressing this issue and i cannot believe my children were lucky enough to be in the only schools where teachers and adm recognize and find solutions for this.

the very teachers you are bitching about are the very teachers fighting for their students in doing something about these tests.

you might want to look at our social structure over the last cou
""What parent would allow a child to be dumb down?" Look around. It happens all day, every day. "... exactly my point. parenting. nothing to do with teachers. teachers cannot cure this. our system cannot cure this. it must come from both society and but most parents, teaching kids smart is the desire, not being proud of dumb. but really that is a social issue, not an educational issue.

and your last statement about intent of public school is so exactly what my knee jerk, fox news watching, macho, manly man, limbaugh listening brother says, and is just pure, unadultered bullshit.

[sense]

172. Dumbing down happens in the schools

every day, all day. I've been in the schools for years and tried desperately to work with them. Most of the teachers we encountered just wanted to teach the curriculum they planned, not the children they had. My child entered school reading at a 3rd grade level, the teachers knew that and refused to give him anything remotely challenging. He was denied teaching for 4 years! He was bullied, humiliated and ostracized, and that was just by the teachers.

We home school for academic reasons, because the system is broken. If you've had a better experience I think that's great, but it does not negate ours. Nor that of all the other kids who are not getting an education.

I think your knee jerk response and accusations reek. You don't know the first thing about me and trying to put me in the fox box so you can paint me with the stupid brush is ridiculous.
I wouldn't watch fox or be anything like your unfortunate brother and find your hysteria completely uncalled for and unsubstantiated.

We are all individuals with different experiences. Because mine is not the same as yours doesn't make it any less valid.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[seabeyond]

177. my knee jerk response and accusation? i have yet to put down your choice, or sons education

in homeschooling, adn you continually make comments that is a total across the board, ridiculous and uncredited comments about public schools.... yet it is my knee jerk responses you have issue with

lol lol

uh hu

[sense]

194. who's posts are you reading and attributing to me?

Oh, you're not reading them, just reacting to one word or portion of a sentence. ok.

[Ilsa]

11. When Bush* was selected, it became obvious.

Even though he largely attended private schools after age 14 (something like that), most people blame public schools for illiteracy and word mangling as bad as Dumbya's.

[jobycom]

12. From Reagan breaking them.

[ColbertWatcher]

51. All America's problems can be traced back to some GOPer holding progress back. n/t

[madfloridian]

14. It has been a drive to turn schools into corporations....by the corporate lobbyists.

For years now.

They needed to destroy the public school image before they could privatize it.

They has done a damn fine job of it.

[ColbertWatcher]

25. "destroy the public school image" Yup.

You notice which schools are depicted in Hollywood movies these days? And how they are depicted?

<i>School of Rock</i>, that dumbass movie with Jack Cultist Black was about a private school?

WTF!?

And then there was that movie with the "Hi, I'm a Mac" guy--about how anyone can make a school better than the ones around now?

And I thought Hollywood was run by liberals. :sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

15. until we "fix" parents, nothiing we do in schools will work. n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

74. If by "fix" you mean something akin to what others have suggested for Octomom ...

... well, that's outside the mission of the public schools.

:P

[dcindian]

87. we should introduce merit pay for parents.

Your kid does well in school you get full tax deduction if not then what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[seabeyond]

93. clever. something might actually be done with an incentive like that. sure teachers

could appreciate too.

[sense]

164. stupid

Merit pay for parents should be dependent on what parents do, not on what schools and teachers do. How does that make any sense? I'll be punished when teachers fail?

[seabeyond]

171. first, it was said in jest. second... my kids get easy A's, they are in advanced classes

all the kids in these advanced classes are getting A's. then the teacher teaches a class that doesnt have the serious student and these same teachers that have classes with all A's now have a handful of students that arent getting A's. B's, or C's... but D's and F's.... and this is a teacher failing. or students that do not take studies seriously. and it is the teacher that instills this behavior? and not the parent? for real...????

not even.

you dont even try to not be bias.

[sense]

174. My experience says otherwise

I'm very involved and have seen far too much of what happens in school. All the kids in the advanced classes are getting A's? Ever heard of grade inflation? It's rampant and you've illustrated it perfectly.

We home school because our schools failed miserably to educate. My son entered kinder reading at a 3rd grade level and ready for algebra. In four years he learned next to nothing at school because the teachers only taught the curriculum they planned, not the students they had. Our state requires that every student be taught at their rate and level of learning, yet that very seldom happens.

My experience is not negated by yours. My son has three years of college credit, speaks six languages, has a black belt in Karate and absolutely loves learning above all else. He's 18. Tell me he could get any of that in school.

[seabeyond]

176. good for your son, as i have patted both him and you on the back many times now.

and i say this sincerely, i am glad it was all you and he wanted it to be.

the kids in the advanced courses are there for a reason. they are there cause they push themselves, are motivated, and do the work. they get the grades accordingly for the effort they put out, bully for them.

but there you are to tear them down.

shameful

[sense]

192. I'm not looking for pats and it wasn't all me!

Read what I said. Our public school system failed us and fails many.

I get that the kids involved in the advanced classes generally belong there, and generally do well, but if a c is average, then it's still means that the average student, among all those great ones, in that class should still should get a c. Not all of them did equally well. It's impossible with all those individuals to have performed at the exact, same level. I'm not tearing them down at all.

The system is broken. It's supposed to be there for all and it's not even trying!!!! Shame on you for thinking I'm denigrating the kids.

I did forget to add, in this post, that I don't take credit for what my son has accomplished. I didn't teach him most of what he knows. I provided the time and resources (many of them free) so that he could learn what he wanted, when he was interested in it, in as much depth as he desired. The same choices adults have. I think we don't give kids enough credit for what they can do, when provided with a choice outside of the norm. They want to learn and we get in their way. Not all the time or every time.... in general, in public schools that are dumbed down. Public schools MUST be there for all the students or none. They don't get to pick and choose who to provide an education to.

[Uzybone]

16. You must live in a good neighbourhood

If you lived in an urban neighbourhood you wouldn't be asking this question. There is nothing sudden about it.

[ColbertWatcher]

27. What I meant by sudden was the GOP-controlled media's suden interest.

Sorry about the confusion.

[Hansel]

129. That's for sure. I worked in community organizing

in the inner city in the 1970's and the schools were horrible at that time. That was before there was much gang activity in the area.

[paulsby]

19. strawman

i am not aware of anybody who says merit pay is the ONLY solution.

many people think merit pay will improve the overall quality of teaching by incentivizing performance, but nobody says it's the "only solution"

and the reason why so many people think we need to fix schools is

1) we underperform many other industrialized nation
2) in many respects, spending more money per student has NOT resulted in better results
3) we have had decades of admin top heavy public schools. compare the ratio of admin to teachers at many public schools vs. private schools
4) the overemphasis on teacher's certificate and other pieces of paper that exclude teachers with valuable skills from teaching assignments vs. private schools that are much more flexible in this regard. for example, at my private elementary school, one of our teachers was an absolutely brilliant and effective teacher, with a Phd, but he couldn't have taught in most public schools because he didn't have a teaching certificate.

[readmoreoften]

24. Apparently it is the FIRST solution, because it's the first place the administration went.

You have to stretch to call his use of the word ONLY as indication of a strawman argument. Merit-pay itself, on the other hand, is a straw man.

[paulsby]

31. well, no

do you understand the concept of multifactorial approaches?

just because it's the first "fix" the admin went with in no way logically applies that it is THE SOLUTION

that is simply not a valid argument.

and how can "merit-pay itself" be a strawman?

i don't think you understand the meaning of the word.

[FiveGoodMen]

30. "improve the overall quality of teaching by incentivizing performance"

That's pretty much what we have with NCLB.

You get the overwhelming need to reduce the entire process to a number. That ruins education. Has been for some time now.

Merit pay sounds like a good idea.

[paulsby]

38. except that's not what it is.

it's PART of the equation.

NOBODY is claiming it's THE SOLUTION, or it will "fix" our (somewhat) disfunctional public ed system.

i saw both worlds - public and private school.

i saw private school teachers paid LESS than their public school counterparts, who were far better teachers, better prepared, more knowledgeable etc. for instance.

part of the reason they chose private schools was the more flexible approach to teaching, and the fact that they would be judged on their performance, not merely how many pieces of paper they had, and their years on. the former encourages teacher diploma mills, for instance, and plenty of honest teachers agree that much in the teacher's certification process is about "in group" stuff and not actually helping people become better teachers.

considering how we keep throwing more and more money per student at education, with diminishing (or even fewer) returns, i hardly see how a program set up to incentivize performance is a prob.

let's give it a try. and kudos to obama

[FiveGoodMen]

45. "it's PART of the equation"

For the reason I already mentioned, I think it's a bad part of the equation.

[paulsby]

48. we can

agree to disagree on that. i just take umbrage (lol i love umbrage! :) ) with the false notion that people are claiming that merit pay is the grand unifying solution to all our worries.

and it's a dessert topping too!

[ColbertWatcher]

72. "let's give it a try" No.

"Merit" pay does not look like it will do any good. Get rid of it.

The whole idea that something should be "given a try" is how the GOP sold Dumbass.

[paulsby]

77. riiiiight

so you are equating it with bush, to show your derision?

yawn.

obama is doin' the right thing here. props to him

[ColbertWatcher]

81. That's one example.

"Give privatization a try" is as old as Enron.

[paulsby]

83. except merit pay

has exactly zero to do with privatization.

or am i missing your point?

[ColbertWatcher]

86. Privatization is a slippery slope. "Merit" pay is a part of the equation. n/t

[paulsby]

92. that's bull

spare me the odious slippery slope arguments.

yup, better not legalize medical marijuana, that's a slippery slope to distributing meth to schoolkids TOO!

privatization means something.

vouchers, for instance, is at least fractionally related to privatization

there is EXACTLY zero privatization aspects of merit pay.

it is still a 100% public school paying its teachers through tax dollars.

what part of it is slouching towards privatization?

or is that just a debate tactic to pretend that a public school paying it's public employees extra pay for exceptional service from the public coffers is somehow (insert evil music here!!) PRIVATIZATION?

right. that's logical (rolls eyes)

[ColbertWatcher]

103. Now, now, now. You know full well that any attack on public schools ...

... is an attempt to privatize them.

Stay focused. "Merit" pay undermines confidence in public school teachers.

And you know it.

[Two Americas]

110. of course it is

First you falsely characterized what the other member said - privatization is the slippery slope, and merit pay is congruent with privatization thinking. They did not say that merit pay was a slippery slope to privatization. I do not see how anyone can call themselves a Democrat and not see privatization of all kinds as a slippery slope.

Any attack on public institutions advances privatization - that is the entire reason why the right wing does attack public institutions.

Blaming the teachers is no different than blaming the UAW workers for the plight of the auto companies. The idea is to cripple the people doing the work, and to line the pockets of the few. That is what the right wing is always trying to do.

There is no evidence that teachers are at fault. However there is much evidence that they are called to do much more then they once did, in much worse conditions, with much less support, and with collapsing budgets and crumbling infrastructure.

Teaching is singularly inappropriate to force into as a "sell your talent on the open market" model. The whole notion of "getting your money's worth" from public education is death to the survival of public education, to the spirit and purpose of public education, and the death or sever crippling of public education is a goal of the privatization movement.


...

[paulsby]

158. utter rubbish

"privatization is the slippery slope, and merit pay is congruent with privatization thinking. They did not say that merit pay was a slippery slope to privatization. I do not see how anyone can call themselves a Democrat and not see privatization of all kinds as a slippery slope."

merit pay has nothing to do with privatization.

it simply means recognizing employees for their achievements by paying them more.

that has exactly ZERO to do with privatization.

"Any attack on public institutions advances privatization"

except merit pay isn't an attack on public institutions.

it's an attempt to improve a public institution.

so, in fact, it's the exact opposite of an attack.

you are truly through the friggin' looking glass.

i got it now.

recognizing employees with additional pay, for achievement is tantamount to an ATTACK ON PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS!! :)

[Zodiak]

184. If they were serious about giving anything a "try"

They would try to come up with a fair way to measure teacher performance BEFORE putting teeth to it by using it for merit pay....or using it to defund schools through NCLB.

First you come up with a fair metric, THEN you apply that metric. Why does it have to be all at once?

Meanwhile, while they test different metrics, increase pay across the board and take education seriously for all parties involved.

[ColbertWatcher]

187. Using the word "try" is the GOP's attempt at populism.

Remember, they pulled that crap when they suggested Dumbass be "given a try" even though he had no experience.

[Zodiak]

193. Which is exactly why you counter that argument with....

"fine, let's TRY to come up with a metric and test it over a number of years, and if it proves to be a good metric that all can agree on, then we can TRY putting teeth to it"

Forcing all of this change of policy at once in the absence of any hard data is not trying, it is punitive.

Hard data first, then we decide action.

[ColbertWatcher]

195. I'm so glad science is back "in vogue!" n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

61. That reminds me of something ...

... a while back a list of "dog whistles" created by Frank Luntz was published online and I copy/pasted it onto the Truthiness Encyclopedia for safe keeping: http://www.wikiality.com/Dr._Frank_Luntz#Words_That_Frank_Has_Discovered_to_Describe_Americans

Sure enough, he had "incentive" and "reform" on the list of "good" (Republican) words and "union," "waste" and "welfare" was on his list of words to describe liberals.

I guess he can finally update it to add "merit" for his "conservative words" and "quota" to his list of "liberal words."

[paulsby]

79. so what does that mean in regards to obama?

is he a stealth republican (oh noes!) for his support of merit pay?

this is fascinating.

[ColbertWatcher]

89. Falling for GOP tactics does not make anyone a GOP.

The twisting of the word "merit" as a wedge for privatization has fooled many people.

Just look at this thread!

[paulsby]

94. merit means exactly what it means

merit

paying people for increased performance is paying them based on merit.;

this isn't some kind of evil rightwing spin machine jargon.

but i guess obama is just not as smart as you and is falling for the evul GOP tactics.

god forbid we pay people extra for better performance.

[ColbertWatcher]

99. Sorry, whenever we got lawyers involved no one word can mean the same thing ...

... to two different people.

Remember, the GOP was able to find lawyers who tried to redefine what the word "torture" meant.

This is not to mean that I'm bashing lawyers, I just don't think we should allow these types of policies without absolute clarity.

I know what you mean by "merit," but that doesn't mean in 12 years it will be interpreted in the same fashion.

[masuki bance]

136. That's a pretty good argument for not

doing anything about anything. You never know what "they" will do with it in a dozen years.

[ColbertWatcher]

139. It's an argument to be careful with language.

We need to make sure that whatever new "reforms" are introduced are handled better than the first bank bailout.

[Thothmes]

102. IMO, this is a smoke screen by Obama

it sound good to the masses. But he has to know that a strongly Democratic Congress, one that owes a lot to the staunch support of teachers unions is not going to support this part of his program.

[ColbertWatcher]

106. I hope you're correct and I hope this portion fails. n/t

[paulsby]

159. well then good for obama

i don't like the fact that the dems are beholden to the teacher's unions, and props to obama for doing what's right, independent of what the unions want.

fwiw, i AM a union member. i don't pretend for one second that my union advocates for the public good. we advocate for OUR benefit, often our lowest common denominators.

i think it may very well be true that many dems will not support this part of the program.

imo, that reflects badly on them.

dems and repubs both have their groups they are beholden to, and sometimes that means doing their bidding over what is best for the common good.

i believe obama cares more about doing what is right, and what WORKS vs. what a given interest group wants for their own perceived benefit.

[ColbertWatcher]

37. Not necessarily a strawman.

I'm asking about those who do claim "merit" pay is the only solution, not that everyone says it is.

1) we underperform many other industrialized nation
2) in many respects, spending more money per student has NOT resulted in better results
3) we have had decades of admin top heavy public schools. compare the ratio of admin to teachers at many public schools vs. private schools
4) the overemphasis on teacher's certificate and other pieces of paper that exclude teachers with valuable skills from teaching assignments vs. private schools that are much more flexible in this regard.

It seems to me that #2 & #3 in your example are related. The increase in spending may be to pay for more administrators.

for example, at my private elementary school, one of our teachers was an absolutely brilliant and effective teacher, with a Phd, but he couldn't have taught in most public schools because he didn't have a teaching certificate.

I disagree about your assessment of the teachers' certification. To require a license is to merely ask for the applicant to pass a test of some sort.

The PhD at the elementary school in your example sounds like a moran. Pass the test or get the fuck out of the class. I would expect nothing less of a lawyer, a doctor or any other professional.

[paulsby]

43. who ARE these people?

i've been debating this for years. i haven't met any (in any area of the political spectrum) who believe merit pay is THE solution in and of itself.

most think it will be more or less (or not at all) effective as PART of a plan to improve public education.


"t seems to me that #2 & #3 in your example are related. The increase in spending may be to pay for more administrators."

i agree. and this is largely again, a union issue (i say as a union member) - the proliferation of admin jobs.

"I disagree about your assessment of the teachers' certification. To require a license is to merely ask for the applicant to pass a test of some sort."

i'm all for competency tests, in the area the teacher is teaching. note that teachers unions generally OPPOSE this.

were you aware of that?

[ColbertWatcher]

58. Actually California had an example where you're wrong.

Just recently, a California court (could have been the state Supremes; I don't remember exactly) ruled that anyone "teaching" in a "homeschool" had to pass a certification.

And I don't remember the unions opposing that ruling.

So, "generally"? No.

[paulsby]

76. i was strongly against that ruling

fwiw.

but you are right, that's an example.

[ColbertWatcher]

85. Why were you against it? (I agreed with the first ruling) n/t

[paulsby]

88. it's a violation of parental rights.

it was also a thinly veiled attempt by teachers unions to reign in all those evil homeschoolin' parents.

california has a pretty good history of being extremely hostile to the rights of parents to educate their kids.

[ColbertWatcher]

98. It is not a violation of a parent's "right."

Just as it is not a violation of a parent's "right" to require them to be a licensed surgeon before operating on their own child.

Emergency first aid is one thing, but no one is allowed to cut open another person, perform a medical procedure and call their home a "hospital" just because they claim the "right" to call themselves a "doctor."

[paulsby]

101. absurd analogy

teaching is not rocket science, nort is it surgery.

and no need for quotes around "right"

[ColbertWatcher]

105. Teachers are professionals just as doctors and lawyers are. n/t

[Lost in CT]

118. The professional part is teaching three dozen of someone elses children...

not teaching your own child... We don't require a medical degree to put on a band-aid or give a child cough syrup...

[ColbertWatcher]

125. But, we do require a license to perform surgery.

On anyone--including one's own child.

If someone wants to refer to him/herself as a teacher because they keep their child home and out of the public schools, that person is trying to equate what he/she does to what teachers do.

And, these types of people believe they do not have to be licensed.

[Lost in CT]

133. Well that is silly... homeschooling is different than being a teacher...nt

[ColbertWatcher]

141. If someone wants government money for having a "school" in their house ...

... because they will be "teaching" their children, then there's really no difference.

But, this thread has redefined silly.

[sense]

162. Baloney!

You have no idea!

These types of people! What crap. People are individuals.

Comparing teachers to surgeons is ludicrous.

[ColbertWatcher]

182. I'm comparing professionals to professionals. n/t

[sense]

188. a teacher's education is not equivalent to a surgeon's.

[ColbertWatcher]

189. A teacher's job is as important as a surgeon's. n/t

[sense]

197. I didn't argue that.

[sense]

163. Children do not belong to the state.

We have the right to educate our children as we see fit. If we screw that up, then clearly that will be our problem and I will take responsibility for mine!

[ColbertWatcher]

183. Excellent.

But, if one wants to call oneself a "teacher" then get a license.

[sense]

186. I don't need a license to provide an education for my children

I'm their facilitator and not their sole teacher. A license doesn't make you a good teacher, you simply passed a dumbed down test. The majority of the teacher certification tests are written at a tenth grade level. Look at the studies.

[ColbertWatcher]

191. No, but you do need a license to call yourself a "teacher." n/t

[sense]

200. Only if I want to teach other people's children

I taught my child to read. Therefor I teach, which makes me a teacher.

Not relevant.

The argument is not about this.

[ColbertWatcher]

204. Sorry, I disagree. By your logic anyone who twitters is a writer. n/t

[Kajsa]

147. Thank You!

"the overemphasis on teacher's certificate and other pieces of paper that exclude teachers with valuable skills from teaching assignments".

I have experienced that firsthand, having a CA Single Subject Credential in English and a CLAD certification.

NCLB doesn't work and it's NOT helping our students.
When Special Day students are required to take the
SAME tests as the general student population, you
know things are screwed up!

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like President Obama is going to scrap NCLB.

:(

[The_Casual_Observer]

20. It's a newly discovered source of potential profit by somebody.

[treestar]

28. It is not sudden because for the past 8 years there has

been an affirmative attempt to crash the schools. Conservatives hate public schools. It's too much guvmint, you see.

[ColbertWatcher]

40. I have said for a while now that despite the Dems winning the White House ...

... and more seats in Congress, the GOP still controls the media, the courts and education.

[treestar]

157. Hopefully, the internets will help make the media more and more

irrelevant. The right wing corporate blowhards can't dominate in the same way.

We can push the idea that they are "entertainers" - comedian Rush Lamebaugh comes to mind.

[Riley18]

32. We already have a national group for teachers. If they want to give "merit"

pay then they should use the National Board Certification standards for teachers. The teachers who undertake this certification are certified by their peers in all areas that they teach. In Florida we used to get a 10% bonus each year after we certified, but this school year we are still waiting. I would not want to be judged on my students' test scores, but believe I could be judged on my own merit.

[ColbertWatcher]

49. "I would not want to be judged on my students' test scores"

A DUer posted a thread a while back comparing "merit" pay for teachers to "merit" pay for dentists. Saying, essentially, that "merit" pay for teachers would be like paying dentists on how few cavities their patients had.

I thought it was a brilliant argument!

[Catshrink]

33. A better "target" would be parents who don't do their jobs.

Turn off the TV, video games, cell phone. Don't allow your child to amp up on energy drinks and junk food. Insist your child go to bed at a reasonable hour. Don't take your child out of school for discretionary family vacations so that your child gets the impression that school isn't important. (I don't mean funerals, graduations, and the like.) When a teacher calls home to discuss behavior and/or academics, listen. Don't tell me "Oh my child would never do that. You must be lying because you don't like him/her." Your kid doesn't walk on water and I wouldn't be wasting my time calling home if there wasn't something we needed to talk about.

[seabeyond]

41. make him do homework, check on progress, make school and academics a priority... i dont get it

kids have been in different schools. poor school. rich poor schools. and the schools and teachers and adm has always been kick ass... it isnt the schools that need the work. it is the parenting that has to be addressed or no matter what is done with schools will FAIL

[Catshrink]

112. Exactly.

[hvn_nbr_2]

34. I think it began in the 1950s. The catchphrase was "Why Johnnie can't read."

But the 1950s is as far back as my memory goes. It probably really goes back to the Renaissance. Before the Renaissance (i.e., in the Dark Ages), the catchphrase probably was, "Why does Gianni want to read?"

[stray cat]

35. Competency for jobs requires more than most of our students learn compared to the world

if people can not read, write or think- no one will hire them over immigrants who can do all three.

I for one can't afford to hire someone with for all practical purposes a 3rd grade education compared to our historical competency of the education worldwide.

[steelmania75]

36. Our educational system is terrible.

[seabeyond]

44. not the schools my boys are going to. they are ahead of what we did in my day

and learn more. i dont get this. please tell me why you think the schools are terrible

[Posteritatis]

96. The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data' (nt)

[spin]

39. I would suggest moving education into the current century...

Students today are very computer literate.

We need to develop computer programs to teach or aid in teaching subjects. These programs would let students learn at their own pace.

One of my grandchildren had a difficult time in middle school so he attended summer school. The school system used computer programs in the summer school. He actually enjoyed attending school and zipped through the lessons. He viewed them as a computer game to defeat.

[JuniperLea]

42. The bridges were too old

It's not the engineers' fault.

Our schools are ridiculous! It's about time someone started the conversation again on how to fix them.

You'd probably be surprised at the letters and resumes I get from COLLEGE students looking to join our intern program. Many of these youngsters could have used a good teacher back in grades 3 - 5 when most of us were learning how to spell and construct sentences. And these are the students who are willing to go the extra mile to get ahead! It's horrific to think that these kids are our future!

[ColbertWatcher]

64. (Shh! I know it's not the engineers' fault!)

I was using that as an example of how wrong it is to blame teachers for the state of the educational system.

(Don't tell anyone!)

[JuniperLea]

104. (ok!)

(our little secret) ;)

[BlooInBloo]

46. Funny how teachers want accountability for everybody... except themselves...

Who benefits from THAT, I wonder?

[Johonny]

52. Who exactly doesn't want to be paid based on merit?

[ColbertWatcher]

55. You're assuming that teachers are not accountable at all.

And that this "merit" pay bullshit would be the first instance of "accountability.

Ha, ha, I caught you!

[tonysam]

47. From the Same Boobs

who want privatization of schools or run public schools on a business model.

It's an old refrain. Cries for "fixing" schools have gone on for decades.

[ColbertWatcher]

54. True.

I just want to know what's behind this latest manifestation of "private always performs better than public" bullshit.

[Hannah Bell]

69. it's all the same manifestation: continuation of previous policy with new spin.

Bush pumping $$ into merit pay
by Michael Hirsch

Nov 2, 2006 5:25 PM

The Bush administration is proceeding with a national teacher-pay plan based exclusively on student test scores. Dubbed the Teacher Incentive Fund, the Bush administration has said it would announce 16 grants totaling $42 million which will be disbursed by the federal Department of Education to the states — all before the Nov. 7 elections.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5233485&mesg_id=5233485

[ColbertWatcher]

71. And there it is. A GOP-created "fix" to a problem created by the GOP.

Privatization for the sake of privatization.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. The last round of testing made tons for Bush Bros!

Maybe this one will too, in the spirit of bi-partisanship...

Actually, the whole thing is a ruse, a attempt to look like they support accountability while they let criminals go free and the destroyers of our economy take giant bonuses for 'performance'. Bonuses paid with tax dollars.
They go around screaming that they demand a meritocracy, because they know there is no such thing. Where is the merit in the media, in government? Do they test out the losers in Congress? Was Bush in office due to merit?
They are using teachers and children as props to distract from the card up their sleeve, from the shill in the house, the stooge in the ranks.

[ColbertWatcher]

75. Beautifully put! Well said! BRA-VO! n/t

[EFerrari]

62. Maybe a more focused question is, how did saving our schools turn into

beating up on teachers? :shrug:

[Two Americas]

65. indeed

And what is going on around here? Every right wing talking point about public education is being posted.

[EFerrari]

68. Some of us seem to fall for them every time. But in fairness,

if your whole experience was of our schools after 1980 and all you ever experienced was Congress betraying our school system and if your kids walked into those rooms and were not helped, then it wouldn't be too difficult to fall into blaming teachers and not see the whole disgusting picture of the rapine against our schools.

[Two Americas]

91. that makes we wonder

That makes we wonder if people may not have to re-learn many lessons the hard way, and if we might not have a much bigger re-building job ahead of us than we think, and if things might not have to get a lot worse before people understand what needs to be done.

[EFerrari]

95. Maybe one of the most harmful effects of the last 30 years

has been on our memory and attention span.

If we need to learn hard lessons anew, we're in luck because they're coming right up. :(

[ColbertWatcher]

67. True. But, the connection to the failure of "merit" pay is not very strong in your ...

... version.

It's almost as if the GOP-controlled media treats school administrators like CEOs: untouchable, above criticism, sacred, safe from scrutiny.

The conversation about the bankers failing has become a discussion about why people who've lost their jobs created this economic mess instead of finding out how corporate executives gamed the system.

It's starting to look as though America may claim to like an underdog, except when we need someone to blame.

[EFerrari]

73. But it's not school administrators that are treated like CEOs at all.

It's the collusion between the feds, the states and the right wing that gets a pass. I doubt you'll find a principal that thinks his/her school is too much supported or funded. But I'm sure you'll find lots of elected @ssholes and wingers that have all kinds of reasons to continue to try to kill our schools. This last insult to the teaching profession is just that, the last in a thirty year war on public education.

You can't fix our schools by adding yet another burden to teachers in other words and that's what this merit pay idea is.

[ColbertWatcher]

78. I guess I should have said ...

... the sanctity of the job of administrator is similar to that of a CEO.

The CEO's (school administrator's) job is protected at all costs, while the worker's (teacher's) is cut.

Look at what the UAW accepted from Ford today: a pay cut for workers. But, the CEO's job? Not even discussed.

[EFerrari]

80. Yep. Gotcha. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

119. It's a political reality

If you want to invest more money in failing inner city schools then you have to throw bones to the moderates like merit pay so that they can go back to their constituents and say that they fixed education without just "throwing money at the problem".

[ColbertWatcher]

131. I think you've stumbled on the problem.

The GOP-controlled media has reduced the solutions to complex problems (like education) to slogans and clichés.

Such as "throwing money at the problem."

If ever there was a bumper sticker for the GOP's anti-government philosophy that's it.

By accusing anyone who tries to improve public education in this country of "throwing money at the problem," the GOP ends the opportunity to have a rational conversation before one can even start.

So, instead of "increase the budget wisely by including accountability in the solution," the "discussion" has become "why are liberals taxing and spending America into debt?" Or "liberals want to prop up unions." And on and on while ignoring the lack of accountability from the GOP-privatization "solution" and liberals spend their time wondering how an important topic was sidetracked again.

"Throwing bones" to so-called moderates is just another way to say we need to be bipartisan with GOPers unwilling to consider moving toward a middle-ground.

Keep corporations out of public education; they never do what's in the public's best interests. Look at what Neil Bush did (here and here) with his opportunity. We need to do what works. And that means giving the professionals the tools to do their job and getting the fuck out of the way so they can do it.

Allowing private corporations to have a hand in education reform will make schools in the US look like Walter Reed. And, I'm sure Naomi Klein will have another chapter for Shock Doctrine.

[Hippo_Tron]

155. The problem is that we can't change attitudes overnight

I think Obama's plan is realistic and on the whole a good thing. It will not solve a lot of fundamental problems but I don't see how those problems can be solved overnight.

[ColbertWatcher]

156. True. But we need to start moving in the right direction.

By replacing the opinions of corporate/private interests and political and/or superstitious ideologues with the opinions of persons directly involved in the classroom can we stop going in the wrong direction.

Once those influences are no longer allowed to influence education in the US can we begin to go in the correct direction to solving these fundamental problems.

[ddeclue]

82. We've had one bridge fall recently so what are you talking about?

Signed,

The Engineers...

:P

[ColbertWatcher]

107. (Please check post #64) n/t

[KamaAina]

97. Or all those investment bankers whose Dow Jones has fallen down lately

I'd rather bail out the teachers.

[ColbertWatcher]

108. A little perspective. Thank you. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

115. Merit pay is one of many solutions Obama is proposing to fix our education system

It is not the "only solution" that he is proposing. And anybody with a pulse knows that our education system has problems that need fixing.

[akwapez]

116. Maybe w/ better schools the bridges wouldn't be falling n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

126. LOL! Good one! n/t

[Lorien]

120. Are you suggesting that our educational system is "just fine"?

Because when a significant portion of the population don't believe in evolution, can't find France on a map (and don't know that Paris isn't a country), and think that Fox News is, well, "news", then I'd say that there's a problem that needs to be fixed.

The other day an acquaintance was talking about the Great Depression that happened "back in the 1880s". I said "you mean the one that occurred in this Nation in 1929, correct"? He just said "That's when it was? OK, whatever". :eyes:

[seabeyond]

121. but i dont blame the schools. my niece and her friend wasn't sure the difference of mexico and new

mexico and we live in friggin texas. i had a 7 and 9 yr old listening to these two high school kids and their mouth dropped open. shocked i tell you that they didn't know new mexico was the state right next door and mexico the country down below.

that has NOTHING to do with the school. it has everything to do with our house that reads, the expectation is to learn, we sit at the table every night and talk everything, four different magazine delivered for kids to read..... they have to THINK. they are not allow to parrot, they have to think. critical think demanded.

and her house where the parents are proud they never read a book. school isn't a priority or thought. academics are not respected. i get lectured because i dont let my kids be kids cause i let them read adult level books.

[ColbertWatcher]

127. I am suggesting that "merit" pay will not solve the problems ...

... damaging our educational system.

[MellowDem]

122. When we decided to ignore poverty...

And underperforming schools will generally continue to underperform. You can throw all the money and "incentives" or "merit pay" you want at these schools, if they're located in low income areas, not much will change. The home environment and parental influence is the largest part of educational success. But we continue to ignore it.

You can't improve schools without improving the communities around them.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

124. And that is a part of Obamas education plan unless i'm wrong

Try to find his speech from September i think it was where he talked about education

I might try to find it myself now that i think about it and post it as a thread of its own to let people see part of his plan

[ColbertWatcher]

128. "You can't improve schools without improving the communities around them." QFT n/t

[Odin2005]

130. The public education system is broken beyond redemption.

Between idiots who think it's all about test scores and schools filled will mediocre teachers because of low pay to some schools being chronically underfunded to school district councils being stuffed with power-hungry twits and ideologues saying that "Evolution is just a theory" the system is a mess. I know I'll be flamed for saying this but the teachers' unions don't have clean hands either, some seem to be more concerned about protecting mediocre teachers more then anything. And most teachers I had when I was going to school WERE mediocre, buffoons that gave out extra work as collective punishment and did little to keep order in the classroom.

[ColbertWatcher]

132. I think you should provide some proof for your claims.

the teachers' unions don't have clean hands either,

some seem to be more concerned about protecting mediocre teachers

more then anything.

And most teachers I had when I was going to school WERE mediocre, buffoons

You can start by showing any statistical evidence to back up those three (CORRECTION) four
claims.

that gave out extra work as collective punishment and did little to keep order in the classroom.

And try explaining why this anecdote should be taken seriously.

[Odin2005]

134. I'm just going by my own experiences in school. I don't claim to speak for everybody.

But I'll be frank and say that my experiences have not endeared to to teachers.

[seabeyond]

150. and what about the smart ass kids that think they know everything, dont take the opportunity to

learn, are to damn lazy to do the work and then bitch about the mediocre teacher being the one responsible for their lack of education

your discription of school is simply wrong from the experience my children are having. i do not see that at all. not even a little or kinda. i do see kids that embrace being stupid, proud to be stupid, and not doing ther work in the class, but i think that is a parental issue and really not much to do with system or teachers.

[sense]

166. Because it's not your experience it's not true?

The kids I know who think it's cool to be stupid learned that from their peers in school. Not at home. School peers, unfortunately, have much more influence on kids than their parents do. Another problem with our system.

[seabeyond]

169. School peers, unfortunately, have much more influence on kids than their parents do.

another one i cannot believe we allow society and others to take from us as parents. i cannot believe we throw up our hands and say, i give, you can have our children, i am powerless.

not even

not kinda

not sorta

my parents hands down had the most influence with me. did i do everything they wanted their way. no. a lot but not all. but they were always with me. they were the ones i wanted to impress, hands down. same with hubby. peers are a factor, but only a factor. same with social pressure, tv, internet. just a factor. the foundation we give our children, our connection with our children, way outweigh either of the two.

all one has to do is believe... lol, and do the work.

that saying of yours, i hate it the most.

disney channel likes to convince our children that their peers have more influence and they dont want to be or hear from parent... i teach my kids that it doesnt have to be that way. and we decided that we wont allow them to condition us... we dont like being conditioned.

[sense]

175. That saying of mine?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

If you're talking about the fact that peers have more influence than parents.... that is a fact. Read the research. It doesn't mean all peers and all parents, but the majority.

You don't like being conditioned. That is what schools are for.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

If you have more influence in your children's live I salute you. I applaud you. I do too. That doesn't mean that we're the norm.

[seabeyond]

178. whether it is a norm or not, it does not have to be and that is what i have said from beginning

it is the parenting.... schooling, educating, academics is not parenting and cannot replace it. you reinforced what i say from the beginning.

and one can only be conditioned if they allow. no schools cannot condition if a child is taught what it is, what it feels like, then it doesnt matter if it is school, society, peers or parent./.... a child feels conditioning, they will reject it.

that is what a parent does.

[seabeyond]

170. now sense, i just read at least 5 of your posts addressing me. 5 responses and not one bash to home

schooling. not once did i feel the need to bash your choice on homeschooling, belittling your decision to homeschool, point out the defects of homeschooling, and there are many. but there was not a desire at all to make less a parents choice to homeschool is suggest your child lacked at all. i have faith and confidence that your ability to read your child, their need, and provide is valid.

my point with your post is your unreasonable attack on the system without any desire what so ever to consider the whole picture. to tear down the public school system wont hurt my child, it wont hurt the rich, but it will devastate our child that need it most. it is not the answer. and it is what repugs want so bad....

you are promoting their agenda, and you are doing it unfairly and selfishly.

[sense]

180. I was only responding to your post and explaining my position.

I was not saying, ever, that you, specifically bashed home schooling, simply that it's a valid choice that is summarily dismissed by far too many because they don't really know what it is. They're simply believing NEA and teacher talking points. They are basing what they say on air.

There are many defects to home schooling when done by people who are really trying to keep their children isolated and uneducated. I agree.

If done with an entirely different goal, there are easily no negatives. Except that our children (as a group) will be far ahead most of their publicly schooled peers, as studies routinely show.

The public school system is broken. I don't suggest that the repugs have any good ideas. What they want is never what I want. The model for schools that would work and provide an education for all at their level and rate of learning are not even being considered. That sucks.

[ColbertWatcher]

185. (Don't mean to interrupt, but ...) This is an awesome post! Thank you! n/t

[sense]

165. Absolutely Right

We need to start over with something that makes sense for this century and gets rid of the corruption.

[FrenchieCat]

135. You were obviously not an Obama supporter.

[ColbertWatcher]

138. Yes, I admit that at some point in my life prior to today I did not support Obama.

Please don't try to turn a conversation about education in the US into a contest to see who supports Obama the most.

"Merit" pay does nothing to help teachers or students.

[omega minimo]

137. fascists

[EFerrari]

144. R US. When the Republicans went for our schools

they threw a wrench into our ability to build community. Even a smart guy like Obama is thinking about a teacher and not about a community. We're going to need to stay in power for forty years before we can begin to undo the damage these fascists have done to the way we think about ourselves. :grr:

[omega minimo]

145. Too late?

Michele Rhea :scared: :puke:

[Critters2]

146. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[ColbertWatcher]

153. "We're going to need to stay in power for forty years" Yup.

We need to get the GOP out of schools, the courts and communications/media before we can begin to end the slide toward GOP fascism.

[Freddie Stubbs]

149. The President brought up the issue in a speech he gave earlier this week

[ieoeja]

151. Overseas schools are doing better. They do not use merit pay.

Therefore we should copy what they are doing and ... wait. Something here doesn't make any sense.

[ieoeja]

152. John Adams became famous for fighting this meme in the '50s or '60s.

King George III appointed a man to the highest court in the colonies who was an outspoken critic of public education (yes, Rush, there really was public education even before the US was founded, you lying sack of shit).

This judge said he wanted to replace public education with private institutes because they were "failing". John Adams led the fight to keep public education alive.

Decades later when everyone was safely in the grave, private correspondence emerged showing that the judge really wanted to shut down the public schools because they were working TOO well. Educated people wouldn't shutup and do as instructed by their "betters".

Wonder what we'll see on this subject should those presidential librarires ever become declassified...?

[ColbertWatcher]

154. Fascinating. Thank you for posting this. n/t

[jbnow]

161. Obama spoke at NEA convention in 2007 and 2008. Merit pay

was part of both of those speeches.

2007

So let's make a promise right now that if you're a teacher or a principal doing the hard work of educating our children, we will reward that work with the salary increase that you deserve. If you're willing to teach in a high-need subject like math or science or special education, we'll pay you even more.

If you're willing to take on more responsibilities like mentoring, we'll pay you more.

And if you excel at helping your students achieve success, your success will be valued and rewarded as well. Here's the key: we can find new ways to increase pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them and not based on some arbitrary test score. That's how we're going to close the achievement gap that exists in this country and that's how we're going to start treating teachers like the professionals you are.

2008

And when our educators succeed I will not just talk about how great they are, I will reward them for their greatness with better pay across the board
and more support. Under my plan districts will be able to design
programs to give educators who serve as mentors to new teachers the
salaries that they have earned. We will be able to reward those who
teach in under served areas, they take on that added responsibility. And
if teachers learn new skills that serve their students better or they
consistently excel in the classroom, that work can be valued and
rewarded as well. In some places we have already seen that it is
possible to find new ways to increase teacher pay that are developed
with teachers, not imposed on teachers. Now I know this wasn't
necessarily the most popular part of my speech last year but I said it
then and I say it again today because that is what I believe, now I will
always be an honest partner to you in the white house.

It's not his only solution but it sure is one he has believed in. I hope he lives up to letting teachers be a big part of determining the "how" of this

Whatever you think of his policies it's good that he didn't hide his intent from those that would care most.
He spoke of merit pay to teachers, a year ago he told Wall Street that they needed new and more regulation, before that he went to Detroit and told
auto executives

I know these are difficult times for automakers, and I know that not all of the industry's problems are of its own making.

But we have to be honest about how we arrived at this point.

and then told them about the part that was of their own making.

After the speeches people said things like "Well he know the NEA won't support him" or no chance in MI and unions would go to Edwards and Wall street goes republican so he had nothing to loose.

He also talked about these educational things at length in town halls when it came up. It has always been a big deal with him

[JCMach1]

168. Politicians and the Media decide every 10-20 years that Johnny Can't Read

[lib2DaBone]

196. Everybody and their 'Friggin Brother has their hands in the schools...

FCAT..No Child Left Behind, Hours of Study , hours of Learning..... WTF?

Everybody is a friggin expert when it comes to the school systems.

Every $2 dollar politician from here to California and back can't wait to get their fingers in the pie and prove how self rightous they are......

How about letting the teachers...TEACH. Get the Bureaucrats out of the schools and leave the kids alone.

Get the Wingnuts out of the schools, get the wingnuts out of the classrooms.... and let our teachers do what they are trained to do!

Such a simple plan.. almost impossible to do..because of cheap politicians at every level. (IMHO)

[Dinger]

199. That's It In A Nutshell

Are you a teacher?:)

[Iggo]

198. It came from church. (n/t)

[tangent90]

201. Maybe bonus pay for excellence isn't the answer but schools have gone to shit

the last 25 or so years. SOMETHING must be done.

[JerseygirlCT]

202. Because our kids aren't being educated as well as they need to be

because there are vast differences in the education some children get as compared to others.

Because we've been sliding along for too long, giving education some lip service and not really looking at it.

And because unlike a bridge, you cannot just leave our education system alone and expect it to thrive, or even live. It's less an institution and more a living organism. Our kids need attention. Because we'd be much better off with a much better educated populace tomorrow.

[lib2DaBone]

203. True. Our Kids are NOT being educated like they should....

Take my advice.. there are far too many "cooks in the pot" when it comes to education.

Someone... should step up to the plate and fund all these programs for education. "Someone" should stop messing with education. Fund education and stop playing politics.


For your information... 76% of school age kids are eating Federally Funded Breakfast at school. They eat lunch at school.. and they might not get dinner at home.

Recently, funding has been cut off for medications for kids that are ADHD, Bi-polar and Diabetic.

So everyone here on DU may have an idea... what should we do? Ideas welcome...