just a few things regarding education.

[ulysses]

Public schools are not businesses.

Neither a student nor her parents are the teacher's "customers".

Children are not products.

Education is not "consumed".

[sandnsea]

1. And progress can be measured.

Whether it needs to be rewarded with money when measurements are achieved is another issue.

But progress CAN be measured.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. It can be measured, but constantly measuring it doesn't make it happen

and it may not be the kind of progress you actually need.

[sandnsea]

6. If you don't state the progress you need

and that you're aiming for, how the hell are parents and other community members supposed to know what you're doing in the classroom.

[ulysses]

8. my parents do know. it's in the kids' IEPs.

Those are confidential, so the community at large doesn't get to know unless the parents decide to tell the neighborhood.

[sandnsea]

13. All kids don't get an IEP

and you know it - so why distort the discussion ON PURPOSE.

[ulysses]

15. no distortion.

Just stating facts. No, most kids don't get an IEP. Then again, what's going on the classroom is available to any parent to would like to come by.

[sandnsea]

18. So the parent is responsible to measure progress

But if the progress isn't attained - they aren't allowed to insist that the progress be documented and measured for the remainder of the year. Is that it?

[ulysses]

23. wtf?

Who the hell said parents were responsible for measuring progress? I said that parents who are interested in finding out what we're doing, in addition to coming to open house, P/T conferences, etc., are welcome to stop by and see for themselves.

[sandnsea]

28. Right. And if they don't do that

then they're responsible if their kids fail. Consequently, a parent must also be responsible to measure the progress of their child, right?

[ulysses]

31. um, no.

On the other hand, is it your position that the parent bears no responsibility at all concerning the child's education?

[sandnsea]

35. um, yes.

And if the parent is responsible to measure their child's academic progress, just monitor that the child is progressing, then the teacher ought to at least be able to document what the progress ought to be and how the children are going to get there.

[ulysses]

37. you forgot to answer the question.

Is it your position that the parent bears no responsibility at all concerning the child's education?

[Mind_your_head]

47. What's an IEP

Individual Educational Performance? :shrug:

And what exactly does THAT mean/measure? *sigh*

[mitchum]

65. Individualized Education Plan

All students receiving special education services have an IEP as mandated by law.
It contains goals and objectives pertaining to the student's academic, social, behavioral, etc... progress and achievement

[Luminous Animal]

56. By fucking visiting the fucking classroom.

By having a fucking dialog with the fucking teacher. By fucking going to PTA meetings. By fucking knowing each and every day what the fucking homework is and making their fucking kids do it. By fucking knowing what the kids are learning and talking to kids about their fucking subjects. By helping their kids with their fucking homework.

[ulysses]

3. not going to deny that.

Of course progress can be measured. We do it all the time.

The question regarding merit pay is what the standard is. If a child comes to me 2, 3, even four grade levels behind in reading or math (which is the story of my professional life), is my pay docked if he's not at grade level after one year?

[sandnsea]

5. What standard would you set?

And what strategies would you use to meet standards for your students? How would you measure success?

[ulysses]

12. my standard: growth according to each child's baseline, disability,

and needs.

Strategies? How many do you want? I use a sort of grouped-phonics program (not "a says /a/" but a scripted system that chunks parts of longer words) and an oral reading fluency program in reading on a nearly daily basis with my kids, in addition to teaching them self-monitoring strategies and how to use them. This is all according to individual need, as are the math strats that I use. I have a lot of good measurement tools that I use, including curriculum-based probes.

By the way, all of this information is given to parents several times during the year, more often in some cases.

[sandnsea]

16. Great. Those are your objectives.

If you opt in to a program, write your objectives in a measurable proposal that is approved by your principal or supervisor - then why wouldn't you want a 1% raise on top of whatever else you might get.

[ulysses]

19. LOL!

If you opt in to a program, write your objectives in a measurable proposal that is approved by your principal or supervisor

If it worked that way, I'd be on board. Along with the flying pigs.

[sandnsea]

22. That's the proposal

I posted it for you.

[ulysses]

24. whose proposal?

[sandnsea]

30. The Merit Pay proposal

WTF? What do you think we're talking about?

[ulysses]

34. *whose* merit pay proposal?

Yours? Obama's? Who is it that has made this proposal in which I get to define "success" (pending superior review, of course)?

[sandnsea]

36. Posted previously

Perhaps you missed it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8258375&mesg_id=8258409

[ulysses]

38. ah, ok. but I'm not in Denver.

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

43. This is the model for the proposal

But keep being an asshat because that's soooo much better for our kids.

[ulysses]

45. my arguing with you on a website has fuck-all to do with what happens in a classroom.

As to Denver's model being the model for any national program, we'll see.

[roguevalley]

20. that's the thing. In my district, due to weak k-3, the battle is lost before they

get to me. I can't teach fifth or sixth grade to people thinking and working at 2.

[sandnsea]

26. So you would approach the district

and insist on objectives that address kids k-3 because it also affects what you're able to achieve in your classroom.

[roguevalley]

69. not in my district. they don't have teachers anywhere near policy.

that is how they are and we have tried for years. that is why my district can't attract teachers, their reputation is so bad.

[sense]

55. What about the child who comes to you way ahead?

What is your responsibility then?

[ulysses]

72. I'm a special education teacher.

I don't get kids who are way ahead.

[leftyclimber]

10. But on an individual basis, not collectively.

If a kid reading on a first-grade level advances to a third-grade level while they are in fifth grade, they are still not on "grade level." They have still made two years of progress. Those two years of progress in one year are still not measured in AYP.

Edit: university instructors better not make typos in a discussion about education.

[roody]

29. How would you measure it?

[sandnsea]

33. My kids?

I measured their annual progress through basic standards that all kids should know each year, and what I and the teacher set as goals throughout the year.

I'm responsible for that as a parent.

[roody]

49. That's great. Since you are so involved with your children,

they probably do well in school.

[sandnsea]

53. Sometimes yes, sometimes no

Depended mostly on the principal, and after that, the teacher. There was actually very little I could do to change their performance in school, except know what the teacher's expectations were and reinforce them. Parents can't tell kids anything, teacher knows everything and even if you know they misunderstood the teacher, it doesn't matter, "teacher said".

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. Every time kids don't learn, teachers get blamed.....

And nearly all the time it's the fault of parents, who allow kids to not apply themselves, to do no homework, give them texting privileges on the phone so they pay zero attention in class, etc. etc. etc.

Punishing teachers and forcing them to practically use a mallet on a kids' heads, is stupid.

It would be that much easier if parents sat down with their kid and either took her/him to a doctor to see if the child has a learning problem, and if not, took the texting messages OFF the phone and threatened them to make As or else more privileges would go.

Guaranteed the kid would start learning.

Stop punishing American teachers. The U.S. always goes after the teachers and it's not the teachers. It's the kids, and the parents, and the culture.

[tnlefty]

7. Thank you.

And I'll add before going to bed that I noticed early on, that teachers with certain temperaments and experience levels, would receive my boys in any given class along with other students with IEPs (overloading is how I referred to it) without support in the classroom.

Merit pay for them, while more than deserved, might have been viewed differently in the eyes of others.

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. Intelligence and Howard Gardner

I went on a field trip once with a 5th grade class
that had to walk around in downtown denver.

One girl, who the co-teacher who ran the class, said was slow
made an observation on the traffic.

She asked us to listen to the rhythm of the traffic and then
explained what the beat was, whereas, everyone
was blown away because what she said was true, if you
truly listened.

I had her tested and put into a music class after that.

The teacher of the class wasn't trained with Howard Gardner
thoughts or teachings.

[roody]

32. Sorry, there is no music on the test. Doesn't count.

[sandnsea]

44. There is in the music department

and if the music department decides to measure how music contributes to language, then that can be incorporated into objectives as well.

[roody]

48. The ONLY thing that counts as achievement in school today is

the standardized test score. Sorry.

[sandnsea]

52. Well that IS NOT the subject

So keep up. Sorry.

[roody]

68. I work at a program improvement school and test scores are the

only subject when achievement is discussed.

[ddeclue]

11. Ehhh.. they aren't "for profit businesses" but on the rest of this you are wrong..

There IS a product - a child's education.

There ARE customers - parents, children, and taxpayers.

Not all products are "consumed" either but nevertheless one could argue that as people die, their education dies with them and as an aggregate distributed across the national population about 1.5% of the education produced is "consumed" in this manner every year and needs to be "replaced".

Doug D.

[ulysses]

27. I said that a *child* is not a product, not that there is *no* product.

And no, they aren't "customers". Or, if they are, I'll put the tip jar on my desk tomorrow...

[ddeclue]

42. They are INDEED your customer...sorry you don't understand that point

but they are the most important customer in your entire business and if you don't get that perhaps you ought to be changing occupations to something less challenging...

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

54. Another clueless education expert.

[Mithreal]

57. The customer is always right and how may I provide you good sevice today?

The customer talk is some sort of weird business philosophy. There are few businesses any longer that put customer care above the short term bottom line despite examples to the contrary. You are not going to convince people who know the classroom that public schools should be run like businesses. The teacher is not providing a service to a student. It is a collaboration. Your metaphor is weak.

The "sorry you don't understand that" is soooo hostile. Why not elaborate and give a reasoned argument for your opinion? But it was not meant to elicit discussion, right? I am probably misreading your intent. If so, I apologize.

[eridani]

59. That is unfortunately true. It is the main reason for grade inflation

When the "customers" are unhappy with low grades, you stop giving them, and give them the "product" that they want.

[wickerwoman]

46. But education isn't "bought".

How many other products require the customers to work in tandem with the vendor to earn the product?

I could be the best damn teacher in the world and 10-20% of students aren't going to really learn from me, either because they were misplaced in my class or have no interest in the subject or have no aptitude for the subject or have no motivation to learn or are too tired, hungry, psychologically disturbed, don't speak English, driven insane by hormones, intimidated by other students, drunk or strung-out in class, glued to their mobile phones and on and on and on.

An education can't be created by the teacher alone and then "sold" to the student. That's why it's not a product. Especially since what constitutes an education for a ballerina, plumber, CEO, psychologist, mechanical engineer and tennis pro are all radically different things.

I'd like to see some of these people who think most teachers are shit sit down and create ideal educational packages for 200 individual students and then "sell" it to all of them. And then measure the success in real terms for all 200 of those plans. And then sell them to their parents. And then sell them to the taxpayers in their district. And then deal with bureaucrats complaining about how much time and money those plans cost and couldn't we cut corners somewhere?

And then start from scratch and do it all again six months later without burning out.

[southerncrone]

73. Amen to that, wickewoman!

Everybody thinks they can "fix" the education system, like a bunch of arm-chair quarterbacks.
When the truth is, most have NO IDEA what educators must deal with these days, even if they have kids in school.
EVERYTHING is the teacher's fault. NO ONE ELSE is responsible. The new mantra in education.
No wonder we are burning out like bottle rockets. :(

Edit for typos.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. And the taxpayers are not my employers

Thank gawd.

[ddeclue]

17. If you work for a public school they most certainly are.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. No they aren't

My employer is the school district.

[ddeclue]

39. Ultimately the person who employs you is the TAXPAYER..

you can be willfully ignorant about that FACT if you want to..

Without the TAXPAYER paying the bills, there IS NO school district...

have a nice day...

:crazy:

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. The taxpayer employs the school district

Sorry you don't get it.

[ulysses]

25. wrong.

[ddeclue]

41. PUBLIC SCHOOL EMPLOYEES WORK FOR THE TAXPAYER

Get over it... if there were no taxpayers, there would be no public schools because there would be nobody paying for them. ANY public servant be they a police officer, a soldier, a politician, a sewer worker, a highway engineer or a school teacher is employed by the TAXPAYER because THAT is the source of their funding.

I can be willfully STUPID and say my boss is the guy to whom I directly report or I can recognize the obvious -that my REAL boss is the customer who pays the bills. It's attitudes like this that give BAD customer service in the airline business as well - people who don't understand that the flying public is paying their bills and that they need to treat them like the real people in charge that they actually are.

:crazy:

[mudesi]

71. Wow. How Can You Be A Teacher And Be That Dumb?

:crazy:

[Ichingcarpenter]

40. Our tests don't do an educational matrix for cooperative education

Most people work better in a group and can contribute more than
they thought was possible.

IE..... the beatles..... we need to start stressing cooperative learning and make
it a part of the matrix for real learning and grading. The stress on early development
in Scandinavia is social, spacial and conceptional cognitive integration. Reading is not
the emphasis until after 2nd grade or age 7.

What is tested in this country on standardize tests made by corporate hacks
is part of the scam, that touch just 1/10th of the students potential or abilities.

The whole merit thing is bullshit, Just try to do that for the police department.


Age 5-7 need two teachers and smaller classes, this would be the fastest
result for this nation, upper grades have already been screwed up by the system, but
could be integrated into the new system but not as fast as the Padawans..

[Mithreal]

58. Good comments nt

[sohndrsmith]

50. another thing? It's the single most important thing in this country, society,

what have you. And we don't treat it with anything close to the relevance we should. Just about every single aspect of the future and how well that's going to go - for all of us - hinges on it. It (and the health/welfare of children in general) should be so much more of a priority than it is...

...that's my take on it, anyway.

[Ichingcarpenter]

51. With Standardize tests society goals are geared on neo-mat- a -tron existence

Worship of the hero as apart from the group.
Raising expectations, that individuality is more important
than communality. The Balance between individuality and
the collective has reached a point of banality in the United States.

The collective mentality that gave us the farmer revolution and their collectives,
the unions and their struggles, can only show us the path that we need to
return to which is

WE Are all in this together and must learn from each other.


I coined a new word...... neomatatron, part robot, part Neo, part human.

[Project Grudge]

60. Merit Pay

I think everyone isn't quite getting merit pay.

Why can't we measure merit by the improvements the students made? This way a teacher can get merit pay if a child is behind at an inner-city school, but improves by ___ percent over the previous year or compared to similar students. If a kid is doing well at a four-start school he or she must improve the same percentage as the inner-city school did to get the merit pay.

The merit pay isn't just for good teachers at good schools, but this way it can apply to all schools.

[EFerrari]

61. Merit pay makes no sense because it targets the wrong element.

It's not that you can't measure improvement or that teachers don't want to be graded. It's more that what's wrong with our school system is the system part, not the individual part. Improve the infrastructure and everyone will do better. Get rid of NCLB and let people teach again. Fund PE. The basics. Then, when we have a functional system again, then let's talk about "merit pay".

But talking about merit pay with NCLB still in place, with massive layoffs around the corner, with schools having to cut sports for lack of funds, let alone music or art, it sort of silly.

[Midlodemocrat]

63. It seems to me if teachers

felt that the children and parents were indeed their customers, education wouldn't be so fucked up.

I recognize that there are great teachers, but they are being lost in the voluminous swell of the terribly bad.

Not every teacher is as good as you, uly. Unfortunately.

[ulysses]

70. I view it the other way round - things are fucked up in part

because people do see themselves as my customers. That's not the relationship.

[mitchum]

64. I think of my students as clients...

my job is to be an advocate and facilitator for them

[The2ndWheel]

66. No, children are like trees

It's only after they're shredded that they become a useful product.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. Schools have no money

Many have terrible buildings, unsafe even. Teachers get little or nothing for supplies they need to teach. They pay out of pocket. Lots of schools lacktext books, and students have to share or go without. Classes are being cut, entire programs left behind.
Hard for me to think that kids with condemned school buildings, no books, no music, and in many cases no home life, do not need resources or funding or even books, they just need their teachers to face a panel of judges. Books are wothless! Class size is meaningless!
I read the other day on DU some parent all proud that they had voted to close the school library to spend the money on sports programs. Closed the library to pay for play...well, our schools should not have such choices to make. There should be books and balls and ballet enough for every child and young person, and for that matter those of all ages.
I've never taught for a living, only as a favor, but I think that if I had no books to teach from, no budget at all, and an unventilated, over crowded hot box for a classroom, I too might tend to not do my best. In fact, take the needed tools from any professional and they can not function. What is the merit of a master carpenter, if he is not allowed a hammer or saw or materials? How does that carpenter show his merit, without the tools of the trade?
Show me smaller classes, well fit with books and supplies and bugets for all areas of learning.