So are unions a good thing or a bad thing?

[serrano2008]

I've never been part of a union but also have never felt like I worked somewhere where I wasn't treated fairly.

I don't know much about the positives or negative of having a union at a company, what's the general consensus here?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Yes they are good

I wouldn't go to work without my union.

[Iggo]

2. .

:popcorn:

[Bill McBlueState]

3. It is fascinating

that this question has to be asked on a message board for Democrats.

[JSK]

21. My first reaction to this question as well.

:wtf:

The existence of unions raises pay for even non-union workers, because employers have to pay competitive wages to keep good people.

[redqueen]

27. Reagan babies?

Many who grew up during the 80's grew up hearing all the propaganda, and few or none of the facts.

[blondeatlast]

52. My thinking exactly. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Ask the people who think vaccines are a bad thing.

[originalpckelly]

5. The only downsides of a union are striking and paying dues.

On the other hand, it's better than working for minimum wage with no benefits. It depends on whether you are willing to take the risks and pay the dues, to get benefits which per month outweigh the cost of the dues. The only really bad part is striking when your hand is forced.

[el_bryanto]

6. I'd say positive

I think we need more of them.

I think it's good that you've been treated well at most of your jobs. That said, I've never been mugged, and I still see the value of having cops around.

Bryant

[billyoc]

7. Good.

[Greyhound]

8. Far preferable to no unions. n/t

[fishwax]

9. unions are only a good thing if

you like things like weekends and reasonably fair pay and safe working conditions and so on.

As for not having worked anywhere where you weren't treated fairly, that's in large part due to organized labor as well. Even those who've never worked in a place where they could join a union have benefited from the labor movement, because employers have moderated their practices in response to the potential of organized labor.

[Sinistrous]

10. As I witness the capriciousness and injustice visited on health care workers,

I can say, emphatically, that unions are good, and necessary,for the well being of workers.

[ogneopasno]

11. A good thing unless you think child labor and worker exploitation are good things. Some people do.

Weekends, overtime pay, work rules and work safety rules came about because of unions.

[Cleita]

12. When unions set the standards, non-union business must compete, which

is why you felt you were treated well in those places. Also, unions have been influential in labor legislation. Labor laws have been rolled back in the last thirty years by Republican and Republican influenced administrations because of the decline of union influence. Believe me the workplace was much better back in the fifties and sixties because of union influence and strong laws that favored labor. You could actually live off minimum wage back then, which was really a living wage. Business did not suffer from it either.

[madokie]

13. For the most part the unions are what is responsible for all the workers gains

we've had throughout the years. Unions are good, I can't say that enough, unions are good for America, for you, for me, for all of us, everyone, even the bankers, the wall street guys, I mean EVERYONE. Unions are good for US

[backscatter712]

14. I've never had the opportunity to work in a unionized place.

I'm a software engineer. Or more correctly, I am an unemployed software engineer - maybe if computer geeks weren't so smug and tried unionizing once in a while, maybe not so many of those cushy computer jobs would have been offshored to India...

Yes, unions are a good thing. The funny thing is that when I first got really involved in politics, and went to a Democratic Party meeting in a local union hall, the first thing I noticed was the American flag, the copy of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution on the wall, and the union bylaws that mention all sorts of procedures that require votes of the union members.

In other words, what is the fundamental purpose of a union? To bring a form of democracy to the workplace. In a unionized workplace, you get a vote. You get a voice in how at least some things are done in the company. Without unions, your workplace is a dictatorship.

People call unions these dirty commie-socialist things, but the truth is that because they're fundamentally democratic, they're fundamentally American.

[redqueen]

15. They are a good thing, but they can have a bad side.

Some unions get top-heavy and end up not being so much about the employees as the organization itself.

Like everything else, it's not black and white.

[skypilot]

25. They CAN have a bad side.

One downside is that you can get stuck with shitty coworkers. Some people do go into union jobs with the "No matter how much I screw up, they can't fire me" attitude. I've been stuck working with idiots like that. But still, I know that the world would turn into one giant WalMart without unions, so...

[redqueen]

26. Yep! No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

Though there can be downsides, the good FAR outweighs the bad.

[Lars39]

16. Next to your vote, the most important thing you can do to represent yourself.

The ability to organize and congregate, to have a say-so in your own life....should be guarded and revered.

[guitar man]

17. Yes, they are a good thing

And you are very fortunate to have had the jobs you have had. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 45, I have been in the work force since I was 15...30 years. In that time I have had a few great employers and a whole lot of lousy ones. I have been stabbed in the back and screwed into the ground more times than I can count by the people I have worked for. Lied to, stolen from, used and tossed out like yesterday's garbage over and over. I feel pretty fortunate to have the job I have now, the pay could use improvement but overall they have treated me pretty well,but they are definetly the exception and not the rule.

So, unions? Hell Yes!!

[WildEyedLiberal]

18. I first read your OP as "So are unicorns a good thing or bad thing"

Just thought I'd share :rofl:

[napi21]

19. They are good except, as with everything they are let get out of control.

A long time ago when we lived in Pgh. I worked for the Federal Reserve Bank, (nightturn) and my husband worked for one of the steel companies. I litterally worked my ass off for 8 hours. Constantly on my feet, walking back and forth running a high speed sorter. I made $2,800/yr. My husband would tell me about how he had to find stuff to do during the day, but not get caught loafing. When I asked why, he said we don't want the
Co. to find out they could get this job done with less people! I don't remember what he made a year, but I remember him telling me that the guy who swept the floor was making $12/hr! YES I WAS PISSED!

That co, and almost all of the steel business has been out of pgh. for many years now, and I blame part of it on the stupid and unreasonable job protection schemes the unions had.

The unions have done wonderful things for the middle class over the years, and I do hope they return in much larger numbers, but I also hope they are more closely monitored.

[Oak2004]

49. The problem is not that the unions "protect jobs"

The problem is that workers have not been able to benefit from their increased productivity with the thirty hour week (at full time pay)-- perhaps even the 20 hour week.

All of the benefit that has come from increased productivity in the last several decades (many decades -- it's been a long time since the last reduction in the work week): has gone into producing disposable crap in order to maintain demand (i.e., has gone into raping the planet. Try buying a mop that will last more than a few months before taking up space in a landfill) or has gone into the pockets of the rich. Since workers produced the surplus, they deserve to benefit from it.

[suede1]

20. Of course they are a good thing! Go to a country that doesn't allow unions, and see how well

workers are treated. I rest my case!

[YOY]

22. The concensus here is pretty much a summing up of the facts.

They are needed. They are not perfect. They need to be smart as well as look out for their members.

[Warpy]

23. I've had union jobs and non union jobs and a bad union is better than no union.

Positives include having a voice to bargain for things like improved wages, benefits and working conditions as well as insurance against having good workers fired for ageism, sexism or personal vendetta.

The negative for workers is dealing with union structure, having to go through shop stewards to resolve differences and things like that. Some folks just don't like the politics of that stuff.

For me, the positives have always vastly outweighed any negatives. All but one of my good jobs were union jobs.

The real negative is for the corporation or the bastards they hire to be bosses. They have to deal with organized workers instead of powerless individuals. They really hate having to do that.

[TBF]

24. It's worrisome to see this question posed on a democratic website. n/t

[tekisui]

33. Anyone can come along and ask a stupid question.

Notice the respondents know the answer.

[TBF]

35. You might dig a little deeper and wonder why he's asking (see his

next question down below for a clue...)

[serrano2008]

48. Geez...so sorry for seeking knowledge.

Your right, I should just spout off about how great Unions are because I'm a Democrat even though I know nothing about them. (no offense to most responders to the question)

[TBF]

56. "No offense to most responders" - heh. I'll take that as you mean to

just offend me. I have a long history of siding with workers whether they label themselves as democrats or not. YMMV, and probably does, considering the questions you're asking. If that causes you to find me offensive then I think I will be able to live with that. I know which side I'm on.

[serrano2008]

28. Thanks for the responses. So what happens if the union votes for

something that's not in the best interest of the company?

Like, fundamentally, why do employees of a company think they know more about how to run a company than the owners?

And please don't respond with "typical business suck-up talking points..." or whatever. I admit I don't know anything about it from either side, just trying to get some opinions.

[tekisui]

34. It is about collective bargaining, and the workers having a voice.

The owners have more power than most unions, so that really isn't an issue. The workers in a union are representing theirselves, and their rights NOT the company or the profit.

It is give and take, but the owners take far more than they give.

[TBF]

36. "Just trying to get some opinions?" With that question? Why

in the world would you be doing that...

"Why do employee think they know more about how to run a company than the owners?"

Unbelievable. There are other websites out there you might enjoy more.... just sayin'

[suede1]

37. If bargaining is honest on both sides then the members should force the union to not

be suicidal.

[fasttense]

39. Unions are the ONLY democratic representation in the workforce.

Every business today is a kingdom. The owner, CEO or whoever runs the company puts out direction and policy that all workers are required to follow, with very little discussion, he issues laws and edicts in the work place. With a Union, you get to vote for your leaders. If the Union does something stupid, you vote the Union leader out and get a smarter guy. You can't vote your boss out.

You may not like to hear this but most supervisors and bosses don't know what it is like to work at the lowly level of the wage slave or hourly worker. They don't know that sitting will actually make it more difficult to reach the assembly line. They don't know that throwing hundreds of boxes an hour will cause you back problems for the rest of your life. And in most cases the manager doesn't care. Do you really want to ruin your back for the rest of your life because you picked the wrong job? The Union usually knows about things like this and get the corporation to limit throwing and sitting requirements.

Have you noticed how crappy most of the Chinese made crap is? You know, the lead in kid's toys, the poison in dog food? It's because a shop with a Union would have raised a red flag about illegal acts like this. But in a non-Union Chinese shop (China's Unions are not real Unions) workers do what they are told and they have no recourse. If the Georgia shop that sent out the contaminated peanut butter had been Unionized, the poisoned food would have been caught a whole lot sooner.

You need to remember what Unions have done for you - 40 hour work week, child labor laws, safety and health regulations, sick time, time off, overtime pay, health care benefits, pensions. I could go on and on.

[ourbluenation]

40. The enemy of mgmt is labor. It takes the largest chunk out of the profits.

They want the most work for least costs and labor would typically end up with the short end of the stick. If they were treated fairly, unions would never have been needed.

Look at Fedex. Not a union shop and as a former fedexer and a person who married into a big ol pile of fedexer's they are generally pretty happy employees.

[blondeatlast]

54. See GM, Ford, Chrysler. Sometimes the unions DO know way better. nt

[Upfront]

29. Unions?

Unions are good and more needed today then in 1929. I am a retired Member of Local 12934 USWA at the Dow Corning plant in Midland Michigan. I have a pension and health benefits and only went through one three month strike in 34.6 years. Get a union if you can.

[Libertyfirst]

30. Unions are essential to human rights and human dignity. n/t

[Beregond2]

31. Certainly, there has been a lot of corruption

in unions over the years, but on balance, they are a good thing. The only reason the U.S. didn't become a communist nation in the thirties, IMO, is the unions; a fact that RWs never seem to grasp.

I've had union jobs and non-union, and having a union made everything better; and not only for the workers. Having a very clearly laid-out set of rules in place for how labor/management relations are conducted, and people you can turn to when problems arise, makes for a much smoother operation, and better relations all around.

The big problem with unions is that they are not international. When a company can simply move to a country without unions, what power do unions possess?

[tekisui]

32. It is sad you have to ask.

Of course they are a good thing. It's a no-brainer.

[mike_c]

38. I have good working conditions and a decent salary because of my union....

There is zero doubt in my mind that I'd have neither without collective bargaining. Management-- in this case the California State University and Board of Regents-- ALWAYS tries to undercut pay and benefits when we negotiate a new contract, ALWAYS. Left to their own devices, we'd have low wages and few benefits. They fight tooth and nail to reduce pay, increase workloads, and undermine other compensation. My union is the bulwark they exhaust themselves against. Collective bargaining, and the willingness to strike if necessary, is the reason we have decent salaries and other compensation for our work.

[ourbluenation]

42. Perfect example of why we need unions. Thx. n/t

[tekisui]

44. Exactly, everyone has better wages and working conditions whether they are

in a union or not, thanks to unions.

We all benefit for unions.

[last_texas_dem]

41. In my view, they are definitely a good thing

Even in many workplaces that aren't unionized, the threat that the workers would organize is what kept management in line and ensured that the company would take care of its employees. (Not to mention the number of laws on the books protecting workers that would not have come about without the struggles of union members.)

I'm willing to bet there's a definite link between the fact that the average worker has been losing ground over the last few decades and the fact that the percentage of workers who are members of unions has been falling.

[tech3149]

43. I'm old enough to have seen both sides on the union question

Unions can and generally do good. They not only provide for there members, they provide a base of compensation for non-union workers. My profession was never represented by a union but offered me the opportunity to work with union leaders. That position allowed me to see the corruption that was possible in union leadership. As in any bureaucracy, people in positions of authority will abuse their power if no one holds them to account.

The concept of self-governance works the same way in the commercial and public scenarios. If you don't hold the leaders to account, or don't have the information to do so, The process will never work.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

45. It depends on the union,

some unions are very positive, others are dysfunctional, corrupt, racist and incompetent.

[ladjf]

46. They are a good thing. But, just like Democracy itself, if the control

of the unions falls into the hands of crooks, it becomes a bad think. The obvious answer is to support unions and carefully monitor them leadership to limit criminal activity. (not an easy task)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. Each Union Is Individual So There's No Accurate Answer. Some Are Good, Some Are Bad,

it all depends on the individual union itself, its membership, and circumstances around it.

Some unions are godsends for workers whereas some others are nothing but crap that hurt the company, keep good employees down, and harbor a bunch of lazy and unmotivated people who take advantage of the union protections.

Personally, I loathed my union. I know others who loathed theirs. But I also know others as well that swear by theirs. So it all depends on each individual circumstance really.

[serrano2008]

50. Thanks, good response.

Yeah, I can see where they are definitely better for some companies than others. My work perspective has always been one where there weren't unions, and I don't see how they would have been better with unions, so that's why I'm pretty clueless about them.

Is it more difficult to move up in a company if you're in a union? Like if there is an opening for a position and 3 position equals who were under that person are vying for the position, does it automatically go to one over the other for seniority or do they look at resumes and performance and pick the best person? That's what I'm not sure about. I understand it's "equal" for everybody but there are still benefits for those who are more productive, right?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. For Any Unions I've Known Of, There's No Benefit For Productivity.

In fact, more productive members may very well be chastised by their union in some cases. That was the case with my union, where I was repeatedly harassed and threatened because I "did too much and was making them look bad".

The position (if a Union position) would go the applicant with the highest seniority who had a right (qualified) to bid for the job to begin with; even if he or she is by far the worst worker of those who applied.

It is generally a strictly seniority based system, which is why many don't appreciate being in a Union. I was thankful when I got out of mine.

[madfloridian]

53. Wow

I am really surprised.

[serrano2008]

55. Alright, thanks for the clarification.