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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 12:50 PM
Original message
You Are Friends With an Atheist
If you live in the United States, you are almost certainly friends with at least one atheist, agnostic, nonbeliever, skeptic, or unaffiliated humanist, whether you know it or not. And your friend almost certainly endures prejudice and unequal treatment, whether you know it or not. And your friend is roughly as decent, good, loyal, honest, courageous, and generous as your other friends, and you know it.

The March 2009 American Religious Identification Survey from Trinity College and the March 7, 2009, National Journal article on "Rise of the Godless" present a wealth of data. Let's look at the survey first:

When asked for their religious affiliation, 15 percent of Americans say none, but only 0.7 percent say atheist and 0.9 percent agnostic. However, when asked if they believe in God, 2.3 percent say "There is no such thing," making most of them atheists who do not like or understand the label "atheist," 4.3 percent say "There is no way to know," making most of them agnostics who don't like or understand the label "agnostic" (or, in another interpretation, atheists not quite comfortable in atheism), another 5.7 percent say "I'm not sure," making them also agnostics or atheists-lite, another 6.1 percent refuse to answer, and 12.1 percent say "there is a higher power but no personal God" making them either atheists of theists depending on whether you conceive of a "non-personal God." This leaves 69.5 percent who say "There is definitely a personal God." Chances are that all your friends are not in that 69.5 percent. Chances are that at least one of your friends is in the 18.4 percent who do not profess belief in a God or a "higher power." Chances are, in fact, that at least one of your friends is in the 12.3 percent who openly say (at least to pollsters) that they doubt or disbelieve. These people are pretty evenly spread around the United States and are not all congregated in some godless metropolis far from your unenlightened region of the country. While acceptance of atheism clearly varies drastically from place to place, its existence does not.

Most of the other data that the survey provides adds to our knowledge about that 15 percent who profess no religious affiliation, a group that, no doubt, has great overlap with the 18.4 percent who don't speak up for God or a higher power. While 52 percent of Americans are female, only 40 percent of those with no religious affiliation are female, so you are a little more likely to have a male atheist friend than a female one. Your atheist friend is also significantly more likely to be young than old. According to another pollster cited in the National Journal, 25 percent of Americans aged 18 to 29 profess no religious affiliation. Your atheist friend is a little more likely than your Christian friends to be neither married nor divorced. Your atheist friend could belong to any racial or ethnic group but is a little more likely to be of Asian heritage than a randomly selected person. Your atheist friend, if over 24 years old, is also slightly more likely than the norm to have graduated from college.

Those who get along without God are not lynched or stoned in this country, but neither do they have equal rights or acceptance. They encounter prejudice and cruelty on a personal level often. They pay taxes that support "faith based" programs and discriminatory organizations, as well as proselytization in the military, they see religion and religious based pseudo-science imposed on their children in public schools, and the stigma attached to their free-mindedness restricts their participation in public life. There are probably 20 atheists in Congress, but only one who admits it, and he won't use the word. President Obama's parents were both atheists, whether or not they used that word for it, and he got along fine without religion but would not have gone far in politics had he not adopted it.

There is a parallel in the campaign for equal rights for atheists with the campaign for equal rights for gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people, but it is inexact. The more atheists can come out of the closet, the more they will be accepted, and the more they will then be willing to come out of the closet, etc. But, unlike the myth of gay proselytization, there really is a significant danger / promise that in opening society to atheism, more people will be converted to atheism who were never atheists before. From a broad view of society this would likely be a good thing. Less religious nations than ours tend to be more charitable, less violent, less accepting of suffering at home or abroad, and less prone to war. But from the point of view of the religious proselytizer, there is a danger here that is more real than the danger the "gay agenda." A closer analogy is the danger that accepting African Americans might lead to your child marrying one. Fortunately, fewer and fewer Americans view that as a danger. But check out this statistic: A 2003 survey asked Americans what group they would not want their child to marry a member of. Twenty-seven percent said African-American, 34 percent said Muslim, and 48 percent said atheist.

The strange thing is that while there are more non-theists now in the United States than gays, Hispanics, Jews, and perhaps African Americans, there is less of a movement on their behalf. One problem is, of course, the greater stigma and prejudice. Another is that atheists look exactly like everyone else. But a movement is growing, and the relatively newly formed Secular Coalition for America (http://secular.org ) is leading the way. Seventy-five percent of secularists who voted, voted for Obama, so alliances are likely with Democrats, as opposed to Republicans. But "likely" is an overstatement, of course. Democrats are not exactly known for their courageous stands on behalf of freethinking, although they do have a tradition of standing up for some types of minorities. There is also the problem of disagreements over and misinterpretations of the agenda shared by the godless. For example, the National Journal highlights the longing to clone human beings, something I have no longing for at all.

The National Journal describes a division in the movement between "Malcolm-X type militants … and Martin Luther King-type integrationists." This makes very little sense to me, except as a description of personality types found in any human population. There is a distinction between wanting to convert the religious to atheism and wanting to create acceptance for atheists. But I see another division that, I think, is more unique to this movement and more problematic for it. That is the division between those who want to push for social acceptance and civil rights for atheists, and those who want to put more of their energy into figuring out how to live without religion, talking to each other about it, creating substitutes for churches, and debating exactly how one can be moral without a mythical daddy figure to threaten and reward you for it. A lot of people who care deeply about civil rights, including atheists, have no sense of loss over religion, but a lot of other people have more need for direct community and reassurance than for lobbying Congress. Both approaches are needed. When you find out who your atheist friend is, you can offer to help.

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suede1 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great post. K&R
Edited on Thu Mar-12-09 01:32 PM by suede1
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
114. it is a great post - and it's a vice versa thing - everyone here is truly friends with someone who
believes in a god devoutly and is a compassionate person, everyone here who is Straight is truly friends with a Gay person and may not even know it, and so on and so on... I have several friends who are Agnostic, or Atheist. I am a believer in Christ, and I'm Gay - you just cannot judge anyone's beliefs - everyone has their own perspective.


Great post!

President Obama "A WITNESS TO HISTORY" Inaugural Items www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable
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Paranoid Pessimist Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
183. Anyone interested in this issue should see "Religulous"
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 11:54 AM by Paranoid Pessimist
Bill Maher's movie, now on DVD and Pay Per View. It's funny but it is also a serious inquiry into the nature of faith and whether belief truly is a good thing.
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. I list myself as following
Agnostic Deism/Deistic Agnosticism. It confuses people.

I'm also the high priest.

TlalocW
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wizstars Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. When asked where I go to church, I usually say...
...Church of the Holy Rest, St. Mattress Cathedral...

usually gets a chuckle, and the subject moves on.

In this bible belt hell, it's just the easiest way to avoid a confrontation.
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. I'm in Tulsa
When I first moved here for a job - my boss told me the first two things that people will ask me on meeting me for the first time is, "How many kids do you have?" and "Where do you go to church?" I'm a childfree male of 36 years that doesn't attend church.

I tell people something similar - either I'm a Pillow Presbyterian or a Mattress Methodist. Although, once I made the mistake of answering honestly... http://colddaypontooning.blogspot.com/2009/02/fun-at-baptist-bible-college.html

TlalocW
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Kellen RN Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #49
89. Oklahoma City here
and I'm pretty sure that when people discover I'm an atheist it fucks them up for awhile. They just can't handle it you know... Still, nine times out of ten I have no problem sharing.

I don't often tell my patients or their families that I'm an atheist. Illness (especially the life threatening variety) tends to bring out people's inner Jesus freak and they don't need me to bring them down. It would be nice however, if people thanked me for saving their child's life as often as they thank god. Not that I do it for that reason, it would just be nice if people were as thankful for me as they were for an imaginary man in the sky.
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DUlover2909 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #89
104. Religion is stupid. Those bible thumpers should try reading philosophy.
Then they would realize how dumb they are because they can't understand it. Then get them to study physics and astronomy. After you've properly demonstrated how stupid they are, ask them, "Now, why exactly do you have confidence in your theory of the universe?"

Welcome to DU!:hi:
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sendittozoom Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #104
224. "Religion is stupid." Now there is a respectful view. Not.
Just because you are in TX, don't get it twisted. There are many people who have some sort of belief in something bigger and better than this world. We shouldn't be tagged as idiots because we see a co-existence of spirituality and science.

Where do you get YOUR confidence in YOUR theory? Can you not imagine that it's not a black and white deal? That organized religion may not be the truth but that it doesn't cancel out the Divine entirely? And, most importantly, that we can be respectful towards our respective views?
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #89
141. Well >I< thank you for what you do
and I always thank the nurses that brutalize me with needles that suck the life force from my veins and bind my very uncomfortable wounds together...
at least they give me dru--er---candy.. yeah.. candy that's it ;)

j/k, but i do always thank them.

One thing's for sure, Nursing, esp at my grandmothers home is god's work! (I'm a lapsed atheist, I couldn't keep up with the union due's)

It takes a saint to do that work, zen as I am, that isn't me.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #89
160. I had a former teacher screaming at the top of her lungs at me.

Ran into her in the American Legion when I was in my 30s. When it came out that I was an Atheist, she started screaming bloody murder. "How can you worship Satan! You're evil!"

She went on like that for several minutes. The stranger next to me shrugged his shoulders and suggested I should probably not talk to her in the future.

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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #49
110. K& R to the op - Also, Oklahoma is definitely not the best place to be atheist at
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 01:23 AM by Sarah Ibarruri
With all due respect to people who love places like that, there are an awful lot of ignorant people there, and I'm not just talking about the poor. The churchgoers, rich too, are ignoramuses. My sister lived there and boy is she glad she's no longer there.
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theblasmo Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #110
138. I'll Throw In About Oklahoma
I lost friends after I "came out" as an atheist after high school. Hell, try finding someone to date in this state who'll accept it. It might be a stretch, but I'd say atheists and gays are tied for the "who's going to hell first" prize down here, which is saying a lot for down here. We are definitely the province of the "squeezed" peoples, meaning those who are figuring out that their uber-Conservative, Evangelical views aren't quite as mainstream as they were and are fighting back all they can before they hopefully disappear.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #138
210. Liberals from right wing states like that one, are unbelievably brave
Thanks for explaining what it's like to live there as an atheist.
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
206. Tulsa here, too.
I was a Christian when I moved down here, albeit a liberal one. I've seen so many people make such a joke and travesty out of what it really should mean to be a Christian, I am now an agnostic leaning towards atheist. I cannot stand the crap I see outta the Victory and ORU crowds here. Talk about a self-serving bunch. :crazy:
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Mendocino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #43
67. Back when, I would tell people that I was an Anglican,
and I spent sunday mornings fishing.
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steelyboo Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
71. lol
Always used St. Serta of the Holy Matttress and Bedside Baptist myself :p
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #71
106. I was Landover Baptist myself. Few got it. n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
86. So... you'd like there to be something, but you're not sure that something exists?
Hey, cool with me -- at least you're not pretending there IS something to worship!

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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. I know several atheist
And several others who were raised Christan that simply just walked away from the stupidity of organized religion.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. That would be me.
:hi:
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wizstars Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
48. "Moi aussi"
:hi: Solomon!
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OKDem08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #48
101. Moi aussi
this is my first public admission of that
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
53. Ex-minister checking in
Yep. Even after graduating seminary and working for two years in a church.

I only wish I'd done it before I'd spent thousands of dollars and hours at the seminary.



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prostock69 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. When did you realize you didn't believe anymore? Just curious.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #66
185. Like many realizations, it slowly dawned on me
If you are/were a Christian (and in particular of the fundamentalist stripe) you'll be familiar with doubts. Widely acknowledged by believers, doubts about one's faith recur at various times and are often addressed directly from the pulpit as "one of Satan's tactics" or "a warning that one needs to be more prayerful" or any other faith-based solution.

My concentration during my master's degree program was philosophy and in particular what is known as apologetics or "defending the faith." During my last semester at seminary I read a lot of works by atheist philosophers and religious writings from non-Christian and other religious groups. Needless to say, this was quite mind-expanding. But like other "good" Christians, I kept my doubts at bay and soldiered on.

It was when I started working on staff at a local church that I realized the humanity behind it all. Don't get me wrong: There are some very fine people in church. But I could not find God anywhere. Oh, he was spoke of (reverently of course) and called upon to do things, but in the end all I saw was people striving to accomplish something and in the end attributing all of their successes to an invisible superbeing and blaming themselves for any failures.

One memory of my time in seminary stands out in particular. As part of research on a paper concerning the belief system of the LDS church (colloquially known as the Mormon church), I attended an LDS church service. Even though I was in my last couple of semesters and knew quite a bit, I was struck by just how "Christian" the church service was. I knew that the average Baptist layperson could walk into the church and really have no idea of the vast differences in theology. This was stunning to me. And worse of all: The church service was good, the people warm and inviting and there were families everywhere. It looked like a family's dream church. They invited me to the LDS equivalent of Sunday School and though the "false" theology was a bit more apparent there, it was still mild enough to be missed by most laypersons. Then I went to a "Men's Bible Study" with the men of the church. We met in an executive office around a large oval table and discussed their beliefs. Because I was "undercover" I didn't try to challenge them, but played the part of an interested person who wanted to know more. They were cordial, friendly and made me feel like a real heel for play-acting a part.

I came away from that experience with a deep realization that culture played the largest role in the choosing of a religion. If I had grown up in Utah, I would probably have been a young man riding a bike for the LDS church. In Iran, a Muslim. And so on. Whatever religion was the dominant one in my culture would be the true one.

In the end I knew that no god would allow such confusion when a eternity of suffering awaited a wrong decision. And I had seen that every religion I studied had the handiwork of man behind it.

There's more to it than just this, but I'm sure you don't want a thousand page de-conversion manual!


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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
143. *raises hand proudly*
Though after searching, and wandering spiritually, I find myself back at the *CORE* ideals that carpenter rabbi had.
They're GOOD ideas!

and I've found the best way to put them into practice is NOT to be "religious".

My favorite prayer lately is:

"Dear god... please protect me from your fan club"
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. You're right -- and as soon as I figure out who it is
I'm going to burn him at the stake in the name of a kind and loving God.
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Sabriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. It's me. Bring it on!
I've got my fire-retardant stake and snowsuit all ready for you.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Damn
Shoulda known
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
87. LOL!
NT!

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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
5. You seem to imply that Obama's religion is insincere
"he got along fine without religion but would not have gone far in politics had he not adopted it"

This sounds a lot like the "Obama's really a Muslim but goes to church to fool people" meme, just replacing the word "Muslim" with "not religious" but essentially the same.
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Do you disagree with the sentiment that atheists have a tougher political row to hoe?

Compared to theists?
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. No doubt they do, now about Obama...
Do you think he's a liar about his faith, like all freepers believe too, or not?
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. I wouldn't presume to know one way or the other.

I think that the OP raised a legitimate point, however.

"...he got along fine without religion but would not have gone far in politics had he not adopted it.", is not an accusation, merely an observation which is true. It passes no judgment on whether or not Obama's faith is real.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
223. that is a stretch
That is such a stretch, it is hard to know where to start.

Right wingers say that Obama is secretly a Muslim, so therefore any Democrat who questions his faith is the same as right wingers. Now, what could be wrong with that statement? lol
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. i do suspect it's insincere
but have no way of really knowing, so i gave you just da facts

of course, i suspect it's insincere in a certain sense in most people, since it's very hard to believe nonsense and most people's behavior is not consistent with actual belief (they fear death, tell dead friends' secrets, etc.) but that's a longer post
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Well I credit you with an honest answer
Edited on Thu Mar-12-09 01:35 PM by spoony
though I disagree with it. What you say is insincerity I would chalk up rather to doubt, which has its place in even a sincere belief. And I don't think that's limited to religion, either. For example in relationships with people we sincerely love we don't always act like we sincerely love them, or we question if we do. I'd say it's human nature to doubt and act contrarily sometimes; doesn't, to me, signal insincerity.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
88. If they doubt, they don't really believe. At least, not during the doubting.
NT!

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insanity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #88
178. Not true
Having doubt is an important part of having faith. Asking questions makes us stronger.
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Nydari Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
167. I do the same thing
I have a hard time understanding 'sincere' religious belief. That's not to say that I don't think it exists, I'm sure it does, its just that my default thinking doesn't assume sincerity.

Background/Disclaimer: I was raised in a Catholic-turned-Evangelical home and walked away from it in High School. I examined myself and my beliefs very closely in that period and had numerous discussions about the tenants of organized religion with people that professed to be believers. These were mostly Christians, but also those of other faiths. I found most of my questions were met with confusion and heard many responses of "I don't know". This led to a general conclusion (probably not fairly) that most religious adherents did not really know much about their chosen faith, but instead were born into it and never questioned it.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. True, but the difference is that most people here don't give a shit if he's insincere about that
Freepers throw around "secret Muslim" as though it would make Obama unfit to serve if he actually were a Muslim. I could care less whether he's a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Jew, Hindu, whatever.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
65. I thought it was very telling in the campaign
and said something about Obama's faith when he said he never saw Reverend Wright say those inflamatory things in the church. My theory was that he didn't see those things because he didn't go that much. Maybe he felt the need to go because all politicans are religious. Just a thought.
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GoCubsGo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #65
147. Well, for the last two or three years, at least...
...I could see how he might not be in church. He was spending much of his time in DC, after all. Before that, he probably spent an awful lot of time in Springfield. Not disagreeing at all with what you wrote, as I also suspect it's largely the case. But, just sayin'...
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
132. I assign no weight to professions of faith or church attendance.
When George Bush can call himself a Christian, such things have no meaning. It's immaterial to me whether Obama really is a believer or not; modern American politics demands a show of religious affiliation--usually Christian--so modern American politicians deliver.

Most of this is theater for the sake of respectability, I suspect, and even believers may be showing more faith than they actually have.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #132
149. There are also many people (myself included) that aren't religious but are "culturally Christian".
That is, the ethical messages of the New Testament are an important, if usually unconscious, part of out conception of the world even though we don't believe in the Judeo-Christian mythology. It's my opinion that the Western sense of social justice is derived from the Judeo-Christian tradition, especially the Old Testament prophets, what Nietzsche wrongfully derided as "slave morality". It certainly didn't come from the Graeco-Roman tradition.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. David
K&R

I am an atheist.

When people find out, they look at me like I just told them I eat newborn babies with a rich wine reduction.

:eyes:

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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. you don't?
please explain
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Okee-dokey
Everyone knows that us atheists eat our newborn babies with a lemon butter and garlic sauce. :)
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theblasmo Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
140. Mmmmm....Scampi Babies n/t
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. where on earth do you live? Oklahoma? Where I live, it's much more
acceptable to be an atheist/agnostic than openly religious. Good ol' Vermont.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. nobody cares where I live, really. I work with believers and aethiests
in my office. No one cares.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Would the Queen of California
live in Oklahoma?

I live in San Diego. We have the stoopids here.

For the first time in forever our county went blue this election. Even the heavy military occupation of our city couldn't make the population vote McCain. :)

But I am surrounded by religious nuts in my area- One of them greets me with "I am blessed by Jesus, it's a beautiful day to be alive" as she passes by the house. :eyes: And her son plays down here all the time -

Vermont is way more progressive than San Diego.
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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. I live in Connecticut and it causes me problems even here.
Just recently my wife mentioned at work that I was an atheist and actually got a gasp from several people. She works at a school. It is still a shocking or evil to many people. When my wife and I started dating her sister said atheists have no morals.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. if yall secede
i'm coming
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Kellen RN Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
92. In Oklahoma its better to be a born again rapist/murderer
than an atheist who saves lives.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #92
120. Of this, I have no doubt. nt
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. I once got "fired" by my therapist
when I revealed that I am an atheist.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
70. Most people I know are atheists or lip-service-only theists. But then
I live in the Northeast.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
76. I just say I don't believe in anything supernatural.
It's more accurate that specifying a disbelief in god. Of course god comes under the heading of supernatural...like demons, angels, ghosts and the Easter Bunny, so....

It just seems obvious to me that the one and only reason anything in the universe exists the way it does is because the laws of physics allowed for it when whatever situation happened to occur that enabled whatever to exist.

IOW...it exists because it can....and the situation has happened to allow it to exist.

I like this view. It means all manner of things that don't exist now could, if things come together just right, exist in the future. It also means that no mater how improbable the chance of something coming together just so....it happened if the result exists (like homo sapiens, for instance). Also it means that this moment in time (oops! you just missed it!) is merely the culmination of every little event since the Big Bang (and before).

So much more amazing than anything in scripture!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. I endorse this approach, and use it myself.
NT!

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prostock69 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #76
168. Exactly! Well put. n/t
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. Eh, I'm an atheist, always have been.
And I haven't really experienced anything negative because of it since I was a kid.

I take a lot more crap for being a woman, really.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. we've got to work on that problem too
no doubt
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'm actually married to one!!!!!
And so is she.
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
14. I know an atheist quite well. It's me. n/t
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. Nicely written.
I'm an atheist, as is my husband, and many of our friends. Much easier to be accepted in the Northeast than it was in the Midwest. It's nice to see more people talking about it, and more attention being drawn to the fact that, yes, you can lead a moral life without a religious compass, or fear of punishment. :D
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A-Long-Little-Doggie Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
59. I am in the Northeast, but I am still in the closet until my mom passes.
She is convinced that SHE is going to hell because I don't go to church. She was a bad mother, you know. :eyes: It really would hurt her if she knew for sure that I am an atheist, though I do think she suspects.

It does get hard to keep it under cover... One of my sisters sent out an email today showing her kids at the top of a mountain on their ski vacation, with the caption "Isn't this beautiful?? And GOD made it!" I really want to reply and tell her about the big bang, planets cooling, moving glaciers, and all that, but I have to STFU! And another sister sent me an "Obama is a baby-killer" email. I did reply to that one to tell her that I am pro-choice and please don't send me stuff like that any more. It took me 2 hours to write that. Lots of edits on that one!

I think being from a large Irish-Catholic family makes it a bit more difficult for me to openly state what I believe.
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Oh man... I can imagine.
I'm lucky that in my family, none of my closest relatives believes quite that strongly about the affect of my beliefs on them. :hug: for you, that's gotta be really tough.

I hear ya on wanting to say something back to the "God is the cause/source/etc. for everything" stuff...
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jmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
82. I'm in the Northeast too and my mom's praying for my soul.
She hopes God will see past my agnostic beliefs and realize I'm still a good person. I know of at least one atheist in the family but he's only admitted it to me so it can make family get togethers fun.

It always did seem sort of ironic to me that my mom's cafeteria Catholic family wants to act holier than thou but my father's family is heavy involved in a few Christian denominations (I'm related to numerous Bishops, Reverends, Pastors, etc) and my lack of faith has never been an issue for them.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #59
112. She was a bad mother, you know.
And she's going straight to hell....if hell exists....which it doesn't so you don't have to worry for her.

What IS it about religious people always having to feel guilty. I guess it starts so early one feels naked without guilt. (That would be shame, I guess. They love that too!)

I told my niece I didn't believe in god and her jaw dropped....then she proceeded to tell me the joke wasn't funny. I said, "No really! Why would I believe in a parental spook in the sky? It's childish. Grow up!" (She's just out of college) She simply could not understand how anyone could not believe some god exists. (Really...it's easy!)"But you listen to so much religious music" "I like Handel. I also like Indian music but you don't think I'm a Hindu."

But the worst was Father Ketch on a music board I used to frequent. He didn't believe me either. He just said. "No you're not. No one really is an atheist. They just say so....but they aren't." Jesus! He's a nice guy, but what a bigot! Even Strom Thurman believed blacks exist.




BTW... you should hear Handel's "Chandos Anthems". They're psalms set to music. The best choruses ever!
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #112
153. Depending on the day
I'm either an Atheist, Agnostic, Heathen, Buddhist, or Native American Spiritualist


And I also love religious music.

One of my favorite kinds of religious music is Gregorian Chants.



I believe that religion gave birth to some of the world's most beautiful music, and architecture.

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A-Long-Little-Doggie Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #112
158. I don't worry about her going to hell.
I am worried about her worrying that she was going to hell.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #59
131. I hear you!
My parents have never wrapped their head around my change of religion. Now they just choose to ignore it.

I remember when my mother hear my kids had been attending an Episcopal (catholic light) church with their other grandmother. She practically screamed "So you no longer believe in the infallability of the Pope?" while I sAt there thinking " Mom.... you don't know the half of it"

And when I did make my beliefs known a year or so later before taking my final degree, I honestly thought she was going to pass out.

Irish Catholic Moms are something else!
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A-Long-Little-Doggie Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #131
156. LOL!
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 10:03 AM by A-Long-Little-Doggie
Edit for: this should have been a response to #135. :blush:

My mom would never use the F word, though. Substitute "Jesus, Mary and Joseph" and you got it.

That video reminded me about when my parents threw me out of the house when I was 20. I went home for the summer to help out my parents and to spend time with my sisters. My mom found out from one of my sisters that I was taking birth control pills. My mom was screaming at me just like that mother, saying basically that, if I wanted to stay in her house, I had to get off the pill and go to church every Sunday. I don't think she was expecting me to say "OK", and pack up my stuff and move back into college. Oops!
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #131
171. My inlaws.
My wife's catholic grandmother prayed for my wife's lapsed soul every day until Granny passed on. She was very religious, but of that family she was the one who accepted me immediately. She actually seemed to live up the ideals of christianity.

My wife's mother however refused to talk to me for years. It finally came to a head when she phoned for my wife one day, chatted with me just long enough to realize that my wife wasn't at home and then hung up. The next day she called back and talked to my wife and told her the good news about her brother's family having a baby girl. My wife was excited about that but asked when the baby was born and then asked her mother why she hadn't just told me, the girls uncle.

Her mother unwisely told her the truth. My wife went politely ballistic and told her mother that if she couldn't accept that I was her husband then she shouldn't bother calling back. She then gave her mother a lecture on how she doesn't treat her other children's spouses like dirt and another lecture on the teachings of Jesus. Her mother didn't call for a year. I was a nicely quiet year. Peaceful you could say.

For myself, although I was thrilled at having a niece in my life, I didn't really care that my wife's mother didn't accept me or our marriage . I figured that I had a great wife and was satisfied with that. Given that we lived about 1000 miles from them, it had no impact on me. But my wife was smarter than that.

After a year they came around and realized that we were actually married.

The weird thing is that I went to a catholic university and hold a degree in philosophy as well as degrees in music and education. I know more priests than her entire family and still correspond with some of them on various academic subjects. I describe myself as a Jeffersonian Diest. I am more well read in the bible than her family is. I also drink less, don't drive drunk, haven't cheated on my wife, never been arrested, don't hit my wife, give a lot more to charity, and serve on more community boards and organizations than they do collectively.

I find the "religious" passing strange.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #59
135. I love to post this....
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #135
155. That's truly creepy
Presumably the guy's mother loves him, but he has had the audacity to think for himself and is now bumping up against her belief system. She is responding from her reptile brain.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #59
159. "Isn't this lovely. And BOG made it"
Write back next time with a picture of a pile of dog crap on the side walk or a dead baby or some war crime and the caption "Isn't this horrible. And GOD made it."

A little perspective is a wonderful thing.
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A-Long-Little-Doggie Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #159
163. Not 'til Mom passes...
But, Bog, I wish I could now!
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. It's a pity that atheism is couched in terms of being without
The word atheism means "without a belief in god."

Funny, but I like to think of it as something I have instead of something I lack.

I know there have been efforts to come up with other words to describe atheists. I think "Brights" is kind of strange, but I do like "freethinkers" even though that includes more than just atheists.

Interesting that you mentioned proselytizing and compared it to the absurd fear-mongering that surrounds homosexuality. The same thought occurred to me the other day while I was listening to the oral arguments before the California Supreme Court regarding Proposition H8.

It's ironic that whackos who might want to prevent gays and lesbians from marrying or keep gay and lesbian teachers out of the classroom for fear that their sons and daughters will be "recruited" actually have a legitimate concern when it comes to atheists.

In reality, I am a greater threat to their fragile religious beliefs than are my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

Of course, I am already subjected to a certain level of discrimination, but the affronts I face are not nearly as profound or egregious as those that gays and lesbians have to deal with.

I wonder how long it will take before they seek to rob me of my fundamental rights.



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frebrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. One of my "pet peeves"......
I consider Atheism to be freedom from "belief", definitely NOT a lack!
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ShadesOfGrey Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
73. Well said! I agree. nt
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
93. Freedom indeed! Welcome to DU, friend!
: )

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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
142. I agree - atheist is a negative label. I prefer to call myself a humanist or rationalist.
Humanist is a widely-used word. But I don't believe that humans are intrinsically more valuable than other species. Especially the great apes (chimpanzees, gorillas and orang-utans) should be given equal rights under the law. I also consider the human population to be growing unsustainably. Humans have been living on this planet for around 200 000 years, but in the last 200 years we have multiplied from 1 billion to 6,7 billion.

I prefer to call myself a rationalist. My Old Testament is "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine. My New Testament is "The Assault On Reason" by Al Gore. Please feel free to join me! :hi:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R
One of my sisters has a finger in the ear, I can't hear you attitude. Once she even pulled a face, clamped her jaw down and proclaimed, "I don't want to hear how you don't believe, I want to tell you about how I do"...the whole time managing to sound like the wounded party. I couldn't help but laugh at her - which made her feel even more the wounded victim. So I laughed harder.

She was hostile - which is a typical response from more than a few believers. A lot of times they aren't even aware that they've become hostile. To their thinking it's you that caused the problem simply by not sharing their beliefs. As if by not sharing their belief you are challenging them - their very person. So they go on the defensive and become hostile.

But to their thinking they aren't being hostile - but merely reacting to you and the perceived challenge to their very being. To them, they are just defending themselves against...well, against your very existence is what it amounts to...

The entrenched - indoctrinated - attitude that not to believe is to be relegated to the bottom on the scale of human decency. The all things good and decent spring from religion attitude , so if you don't believe in a (their) god you must be bad thinking is deeply ingrained in some people.

You hear it expressed in so many ways...Yeah, she's an atheist BUT she's still a good person....How did you learn to be moral or just or decent or good?...the assumption always being that you must be a bad person or you're not the typical (bad person) atheist. They make excuses for you - as if they need to....as if there exist a reason to excuse your being an atheist. To somehow explain it away...to mitigate it. Sometimes they even feel the need to warn people ahead of time, exampled by: "So and so is coming over - (sotto voce) she's an atheist" Like people need to prepare themselves in case I begin to morph through the evolution of mankind while seated in my chair.

It's a prejudice - nothing but...yet many who harbor that prejudice refuse to even entertain the notion that they are prejudice. They don't want to hear how the words they use expose that prejudice in them.

Instead I hear about how wounded they are...how much the victim they are.

Equal rights shouldn't be a struggle for certain groups of people...equal rights for people, period. Nothing less. Even if a majority of people have the same prejudice that should never mean their prejudice trumps equality for all.

There is no room for prejudice in equality...prejudice is a crutch that cripples us all.

A good first step would be to stop seeing me as a threat. I'm not a threat to anyone's existence or to their beliefs. Yet I must be silenced or denied public office or even a job so they can feel safe in their beliefs. So that tells me the conflict is within them and I can only offer so much understanding of that personal conflict since their conflict causes me real world problems. I won't hold someone's hand when they're slapping me across the face with the other.










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frebrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R n/t
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southernyankeebelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. I WONDER HOW MANY NON-BELIEVERS HELPED MESS
THIS COUNTRY UP WITH THE FINANCIAL STATE OF AFFAIRS? YET HOW MANY CHURCH GOING FINANCIAL MANAGERS AND BANKERS, WALL STREETS WENT TO CHURCH OFTEN? JUDGE NOT.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. Wall Street is full of one of two creatures: Religious fanatics who believe God wants them to be
rich, or Ayn Rand heartless atheists who say get what you can and party hard until you die.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. A fellow atheist madisonian?
holla!
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #36
116. party hard until you die.
That's Ayn Rand?




anyway...

Who cares. What outmoded notions.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. posting in all caps doesn't help
Actually, most financial fraud and abuse occurs in religious organizations.

Bernie Madoff targeted jewish charities, etc.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
121. Excellent point, Belle.
See, this is what bothers me about those that profess a BIG born again life in Christ. What bothers me is their behavior. Their behavior is atrocious! The steal, they fornicate with their neighbor's wife, they lie, they are envious, greedy, cruel and stingy. Yet THEY are worried to death about the behavior of someone that might be an atheist. Tell me the reasoning in this.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
137. You better believe that a lot of those asshole NEOCONS are athiests....
I am an atheist myself, but I happen to
believe that Kristol, Wolfowitz, Perle,
Greenspan and others are atheists.

Of course they USED the "believers" to
carry out their money-grubbing plans...

and it worked like a charm.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #137
165. greenspan is... but he doesn't fake it.
he was part of the ayn rand cult
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bigendian Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
28. O....M....G!!!!!!!
Organized atheism? What's next, evangelical atheists? How about a codification of laws to govern behavior?
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. political organizing, not metaphysical/ontological
we demand respect and legal protection, not that everyone believe as we do.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #39
108. Really?
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 01:13 AM by Chovexani
You could have fooled the fuck out of me. Evangelical atheists are only slightly less obnoxious than their spiritual cousins, if only because they lack the power.

Lest anyone think I'm unfairly attacking atheists, I could give a shit less what anyone believes as long as they leave me the hell alone. My ire is saved for the Dawkinsian poo flinging minority that loves to whine and throw tantrums about how stupid the rest of the world is for being believers. That poo flinging minority also has an obnoxious tendency to paint anyone who ever expressed a belief in metaphysics however minor as an irredemable woo woo or some kind of batshit insane cariacture of mouthbreathing 700 Club viewers when most Christians aren't even like that.

And then turns around and cries about being caricatured themselves.

I'm Pagan and have really had my fill of explaining to these types that every "believer" is a) not an uneducated buffoon b) not a rabid Falwellite trying to oppress them. Also, that they're playing right into the RR's divide and conquer strategy. In fact, my faith tradition actively discourages converts (yes, it is elitist, it is a mystery religion that is harsh and demanding and not meant for everyone, and if you're really meant for it, you'll take on some initiative rather than wait for someone to drop it in your lap. We do not believe our way is the One True Only Way and we are on some mission to save the world from itself).

I think that rabid vocal minority suffers from being raised in a culture where the dominant religious model in the public sphere is one of Christianity, and they react with all the baggage that comes along with that. In fairness, they're far from the only ones who fall into that pattern.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #108
124. well said
Amazing that on a thread complaining about being persecuted, the persecuted ones have to get their digs in against believers.

If people don't believe, then what is there to talk about? What is there that we all must accept? True, politicians can't run for office and say they are atheists, but they can't say they are socialists either, or fail to say "God bless the great U S of A" every two minutes.

Most people don't "believe," in my experience. They just say they do when they are polled.

I find this so odd when people talk about atheism as though it were a belief system that we must respect and have pitched at us all the time. I got pitched by an atheist the other night at a concert I played. Why? I played a traditional hymn. No mention of religion or anything just "here is a beautiful old hymn." But I have to get harangued afterward about how he "doesn't do the god thing" and why and how no one else should and what is wrong with them if they do. I said I am not really shopping for a new belief system, but thanks anyway.

I don't believe that as a group atheists are persecuted or mistreated any more than they as a group mistreat others. It certainly cannot be compared to the persecution of people of color, or GLBTQ people as the OP suggests. That trivializes bigotry and persecution to make that analogy.

No one is more obsessed with religion here than the promoters - evangelists as you say - of atheism (with apologies to those who keep their beliefs or lack of same to themselves and don't feel the urge to constantly beat up on others.)


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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #124
130. Strange that
in my 69 years no atheist has ever attempted to convert me, but the reverse is certainly true. I have never had an atheist knock on my door or call me on the phone to "join." I have had dozens of church representatives invite me to their churches. I have had hundreds of people speak of me of God and Jesus and never one who spoke to me of the benefits of atheism. It is quite one-sided if you ask me - which you didn't. ;-)

I avoid telling one side of my family that I'm atheist because it would hurt them (they love me). All they know is that I don't believe in organized churches and since I know the bible as well as they do, I can still have a conversation with them.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #130
179. Same here - never had an atheist come after me - but xtians?
You bet. Time and time again. Even my sil who agreed not to couldn't help it and eventually pulled her religious bullshit out on me.

It's as if to be tolerated, "we" (as if we are all identical and of one unit - like blacks) have to be above reproach, always better than everyone else. We aren't allowed to fall to the traps of human nature. Seems to me as a society we've decided that's not right when it comes to race and gender and sexual preference, but atheists still have to scrape and bow and defend the knuckleheads associated with them when I've yet to hear believers of any stripe go out in the public square and chastise their "fellow" knuckleheads for their behavior.

In fact, they are always quick to disassociate themselves from the knucklehead believers, yet we aren't allowed such privilege.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #179
203. interesting, that is for sure
It has to be a function of the receiver, since people's perceptions are so different. Maybe we attract - or notice - that which we resist or fear. We see what we want to see, that which reinforces our prejudices and world view.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #108
164. How is Richard Dawkins not "leaving you the hell alone"?
Because you don't like what he SAYS, how he voices his opinions? Being "left alone" means not having to ever hear anyone speak ill of your beliefs?

By making a parallel with religious fundamentalists, you'd think the big problem with religious fundamentalists was the things they SAY, rather than, oh, the things they DO, like Prop 8, like trying to deny women access to abortion, like using the military as a recruitment tool for their own religion, like abusing their tax-free status while promoting Republican politics, etc.

Please let me know when Richard Dawkins or any other atheist isn't "leaving you alone" like that.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #164
195. thank you.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #195
196. I started a new thread...
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #164
204. misrepresentation
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 04:34 PM by Two Americas
The other member did not say Richard Dawkins was bothering them. They said that people are using Dawkins to bother other people. "Bother," as in your aggressive, hostile and evangelical post right here.

I have no problem with Dawkins, and haven't said anything about my beliefs. But just as with fundies, some atheists treat everyone who objects to anything they say or do, or merely fails to share their zeal, as heretics. That was the point the other member was trying to make, I believe. I agree with them.

Some are using "atheism" as a belief system, as a replacement for religious beliefs and acting, thinking and talking just like religious zealots. That is what I see.

Moist atheists here, I think, will r4ead what I just said and have no problem with it. They will apply critical thinking skills, and see the logic in what I am saying, and take a "live and let live" attitude. They don't see the world through the lens of a titanic battle over this issue. But a few will not be able to leave it alone and will go on the attack.



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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #204
211. What the other poster said was...
My ire is saved for the Dawkinsian poo flinging minority that loves to whine and throw tantrums about how stupid the rest of the world is for being believers.

With phrases like "Dawkinsian poo" I'd say my interpretation that the poster disliked Dawkins and was bothered by him, along with anyone who quotes him online to criticize religion, isn't an unwarranted interpretation. Besides, I've heard plenty of people who complain about alleged "atheist fundamentalists" call Richard Dawkins one of these mythical beasts, so the general point stands even if by some chance it doesn't apply to this one poster.

Some are using "atheism" as a belief system, as a replacement for religious beliefs and acting, thinking and talking just like religious zealots. That is what I see.

I'm curious how one "uses" atheism as a belief system. And talking with conviction about something you think you're right about is exactly the same as religious zealotry? Even when what you think you're right about is that others are claiming more than they can know?

Someone robs a bank. The police haven't figured out who did it. Someone proposes that a Yeti robbed the bank. Someone else proposes Thomas Jefferson traveled through time using a time machine invented by Benjamin Franklin to rob the bank. A third person says the first two are crazy, further adding that when something is unknown that doesn't make all wild guesses about the right answer equally likely or equally valid.

If they're all insistent that they're correct, are the all equally zealous?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #211
216. seems pretty clear
The other member said "the Dawkinsian poo flinging minority" - I don't know how it could be more clear that they are talking about a small number of people using Dawkins. What does that have to do with your imagined "plenty of people who complain about alleged atheist fundamentalists call Richard Dawkins one of these mythical beasts.

The you say "if by some chance it doesn't apply to this one poster" that it wouldn't matter - when you reply to that one poster. Need I explain what is wrong with that illogical statement? "I may be wrong but even if I am I am still right."

You say that you are "curious how one 'uses' atheism as a belief system." So am I. It is very odd.

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it carries within it you conception of what others think, comparing that to absurd and bizarre examples. If you start with the assertion that you are being reasonable and others are crazy, that does not make it true.

Apply some logic and critical thinking skills to your arguments, especially if you are going to mock and ridicule others for not doing that, would be my suggestion. The member you are lambasting and ridiculing, in my observation here over the months, is on of the best thinkers we have here and they are running circles around you. "People who live in glass houses" comes to mind. Hope I am not getting all religiousitous on you by saying that.



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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #216
218. Unless you're saying that Dawkins is being "taken out of context"...
...or that Dawkins is being otherwise misrepresented, qualifications which have not been made anywhere in this thread, the complaints "about a small number of people using Dawkins" reflect on Dawkins as well.

Perhaps you or the original "poo flinging" poster would like to make the case for how what Dawkins has said about religion, much of which is far from kind, and much of which has earned him the moniker "atheist fundamentalist" from others, doesn't actually make him an atheist fundamentalist, but does make posters who have used his words and arguments atheist fundamentalists. Some subtle rhetorical detail about the way the words and arguments of Dawkins are wielded makes all the difference between fundamentalist and non-fundamentalist?

You say that you are "curious how one 'uses' atheism as a belief system." So am I. It is very odd.

Nice evasion. Now describe the what exactly it means for something to be "used as a belief system" rather than just restating yet again that you see atheism being used that way.

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it carries within it you conception of what others think, comparing that to absurd and bizarre examples.

You miss the point of the analogy. The absurdity is there to make the contrast of the example stark and clear, not to say the absurdity parallels some other absurdity. The point, to spell it out, is that a claim of special knowledge is not at all on the same footing as a claim that the special knowledge others claim is suspect, that it is not equally zealous to merely be loudly skeptical of zealous claims of special knowledge made by other people.

The member you are lambasting and ridiculing, in my observation here over the months, is on of the best thinkers we have here and they are running circles around you.

I'd be happy to see that other member demonstrate the skills you claim he/she has. I hope you don't mind that I don't take your claim on face value.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #218
219. huh?
You haven't refuted anything I said.

The concept of using something or someone as an excuse - claiming to be fighting in the mane of this or that - is so common that I am surprised you don't grasp it. You insist in making this about Dawkins. That doesn't refute what the other member or I am saying, it illustrates it. Dawkins is not here. Neither of the people you are arguing with have discussed Dawkins. You say that to criticize any self-defined followers of Dawkins is to attack Dawkins. How does that differ from what zealous true believers do - claim to be speaking for God or whatever? You speak for Dawkins, therefore your opinions and behavior can't be challenged without Dawkins being challenged. That is the thinking of a true believer - clearly. Your "God" is better than others "Gods" - more real or more rational or something. But it is not about Dawkins, it is about you. You are using Dawkins exactly the way all true believers use their objects of worship.

You don't know what my beliefs or lack of same may be. I haven't discussed that. But you keep trying to get into what is in essence a theological discussion, not I. That is a belief system you are promoting, and demanding that we debate and compare belief systems.

What are you promoting? What are you arguing about? Why?

You say "a claim of special knowledge is not at all on the same footing as a claim that the special knowledge others claim is suspect, that it is not equally zealous to merely be loudly skeptical of zealous claims of special knowledge made by other people."

What does that have to do with anything? Who is making "zealous claims of special knowledge" - other than you?

Can you really not see this?





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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #219
226. What am I promoting? What am I arguing about? Why?
I didn't think what I was getting at was so difficult to grasp. I guess I'll have to go slowly, in small steps.

While you seem to want to focus on who said what about whom, and are getting distracted trying incorrectly to associate every example or illustration with something that someone said previously in this thread, I'm talking about what "atheist fundamentalist" is supposed to mean.

You would agree that the meaning of "atheist fundamentalist" is relevant to this thread, wouldn't you?

Perhaps it means nothing, like calling someone a motherf*cker. "Motherf*cker" does, of course, have a literal meaning -- one who engages in sexual intercourse with their own mother -- but generally speaking when the word "motherf*cker" is tossed around, it's not a literally intended accusation of such activity. It's a generic insult. It's "poo flinging", to use the wording of another poster.

So, what's the accusation/epithet "atheistic fundamentalist" supposed to mean, exactly? Does it have a real meaning, or is it mere poo flinging, a phrase used to annoy and insult atheists?

You hinted that your own meaning of "atheistic fundamentalist" might have something to do with using atheism like a belief system, but have evaded or ignored requests to elaborate on that idea.

But it is not about Dawkins...

You're right about that.

...it is about you. You are using Dawkins exactly the way all true believers use their objects of worship.

Wow, way to miss the point, big time.

I'm curious about what "atheist fundamentalist" is supposed to mean. It was apparently very important to you that there was no confusion made between someone calling Dawkins an "atheist fundamentalist", and that label being applied to various people who post on DU who refer to Dawkins. You seem concerned that I'd misconstrued another poster that way.

This is only about Dawkins to the extent that Dawkins either is or is not a member of the set of people defined by the term "atheist fundamentalist". I'm very curious about what subtle definition of "atheist fundamentalist" excludes Dawkins, but includes other atheists who have quoted Dawkins.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying anyone in this thread called anyone else a motherf*cker. I am not myself calling anyone in this thread a motherf*cker. The term motherf*cker is being used for illustration purposes only. This disclaimer shouldn't be necessary, but sadly the reading comprehension of some members makes it necessary.

Imagine this conversation:

Alice: Dick Cheney is a motherf*cker!
Bob: Yeah! And George Bush too!
Alice: No, not George Bush.
Bob: Huh?

What's Bob confused about? He's confused about why Alice would consider Cheney a motherf*cker, but not Bush. The confusion isn't so much about either Bush or Cheney, it's about Alice, and why she'd choose to apply the epithet in one case and not in the other.

You say "a claim of special knowledge is not at all on the same footing as a claim that the special knowledge others claim is suspect, that it is not equally zealous to merely be loudly skeptical of zealous claims of special knowledge made by other people."

What does that have to do with anything? Who is making "zealous claims of special knowledge" - other than you?

Is it really all that surprising, in a conversation (which is to me, at least) about the meaning of "atheist fundamentalist", and where the idea of zealotry has also been brought up, that I'd bring in MY OWN distinctions of where I see zealotry or not, where I see "fundamentalism" and where I don't?

FOR ME part of what makes a fundamentalist a fundamentalist is claims of special knowledge. Fundamentalism and zealotry aren't merely about "insistently thinking I'm right and you're wrong", which is what, perhaps, you would like to reduce fundamentalism and zealotry to. The point of my example of the bank robbery is to illustrate how reducing zealotry to "insistently thinking I'm right and you're wrong" would result in labeling a very reasonable man zealous.

So, FOR ME, I reject the term "atheist fundamentalist" as meaningful because those accused of that, whether that group includes Dawkins or not, don't exhibit any of what I consider to be the hallmarks of fundamentalism or zealotry.

If you don't agree, then why? What makes a fundamentalist a fundamentalist, what makes a zealot a zealot? Can you define those terms in ways that make it clear who is included and who is excluded? If you really think it through, applying your own definition consistently to all manner of things about which people might have strong and vocal opinions, are you happy with the results you get? Are you sure you aren't a fundamentalist of some variety yourself if you look at how wide a net you cast by the way you use the word?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #226
227. no idea
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 02:37 PM by Two Americas
Not following what you are saying here.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you are saying here. I am struggling to see any connection between it and what I said.

I may well have missed the point.

I don't often talk about "atheist fundamentalist" - if ever - so I don't have anything to defend there.

I am saying that some, in my view, promote a belief system that they call "atheism." I am saying that some are just as rigid and zealous about that as the most rigid and zealous religious people. Therefore, it is not correct to see all who are religious as rigid and zealous, and all who are not as not rigid and not zealous.

Again - you cannot judge the individual by the group, and you cannot judge the group by the individual. That seems simple to me. Judging all religious people by what the group is or may be, or some other members of the group are, violates that principle.


Zealous - excessive fervor to do something or accomplish some end

Fundamentalism - a deep and totalistic commitment to a belief in, and strict adherence to a set of basic principles


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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #227
228. Let's turn back the hands of time to post #39 in this thread...
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 10:07 PM by Silent3
...where GillesDeleuze writes: "we demand respect and legal protection, not that everyone believe as we do."

To this, Chovexani responds in post #108: "You could have fooled the fuck out of me. Evangelical atheists are only slightly less obnoxious than their spiritual cousins, if only because they lack the power."

At this point I decided to jump in with post #164. Why? Because I think a lot of the talk I hear about "evangelical atheists" (or more typically "fundamentalist atheists") is overblown rhetoric. The words of atheists, even when they're rude, are a far cry from the deeds of Christian fundamentalists. The difference is a whole lot more than "lack of power". Go into any US fundamentalist church and you can easily find many, many people who would happily agree with the idea that the Bible should take precedence over the Constitution, who would love to impose Biblical law on everyone.

On the other hand, while there are plenty of atheists who would love to see religion just go away, you'd be hard pressed to find many who are anywhere close to wanting imposed atheism. Thinking so only comes from the all-too-common absurd message board phenomena where some people are utterly unable to distinguish merely criticizing a thing from "not allowing" anyone else to do that thing.

Zealous - excessive fervor to do something or accomplish some end

I guess that just pushes the discussion off to what's "excessive" and what isn't. I really don't think the rhetoric of many atheists on DU crosses the "excessive" line, especially when it's only words that don't have any violence, force of law, or attempts to change laws, or even desire to do any of those things, behind them.

Fundamentalism - a deep and totalistic commitment to a belief in, and strict adherence to a set of basic principles

Is a commitment to free and fair elections -- with no tolerance whatsoever for voting fraud -- election "fundamentalism"?

Is a commitment to never torturing prisoners under any circumstances anti-torture "fundamentalism"?

If these things aren't forms of fundamentalism, what's missing in the definition? This is why my definition includes the idea of claims to special knowledge, particularly when lack of evidence for that special knowledge is lauded as a virtue, when believing without evidence, or even in the face of contrary evidence, is considered a noble thing.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #228
231. ok
Edited on Tue Mar-17-09 12:24 AM by Two Americas
"Go into any US fundamentalist church and you can easily find many, many people who would happily agree with the idea that the Bible should take precedence over the Constitution, who would love to impose Biblical law on everyone."

True. But that isn't happening here, is not being promoted or defended by anyone here, and so is of no relevance to the discussion here. I think I get what you are saying - atheists are better than religious people. That is OK. You are free to hold that opinion. You may be right for all I know. Still - you cannot judge the group by the individual, and you cannot judge the individual by the group. If that is not what you are doing, then we have no disagreement.


"You'd be hard pressed to find many who are anywhere close to wanting imposed atheism."

That is not completely true. I myself want to see religion removed from the public realm. I wouldn't think of that as "imposing atheism" though. How would one impose atheism? How does one impose religion, as far as that goes.


"Is a commitment to free and fair elections -- with no tolerance whatsoever for voting fraud -- election 'fundamentalism'?"

Yes, it could be. Of course.

By the way what is "voting fraud?" I think there is little or any fraud being committed during the act of voting, despite the right wingers attempts at suggesting that there is.


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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #231
232. There's more to the world than this one thread on DU
True. But that isn't happening here, is not being promoted or defended by anyone here, and so is of no relevance to the discussion here.

Atheists, fundamentalists of various stripes, etc., are all types of people that exist out there in the real world beyond the scope of DU or this one discussion thread on DU. I don't take tossing around the label "fundamentalist" lightly because the importance of the meaning of that word is outside of the scope of people merely annoying other people by what they say in an online forum. I think it would be a bizarrely limiting constraint on forum conversation if we could only discuss the labels people try to stick on other people within the narrow scope of what's already been discussed in a particular thread.

I think I get what you are saying - atheists are better than religious people. That is OK. You are free to hold that opinion.

Not at all. Their are rotten atheists and great religious people. The basic thing I think atheists are better at than religious folk, in general, is seeing the world around them in a more rational, logical way. Even in that narrow scope, however, there are no guarantees. You could have an atheist who believes he has an invisible pet Yeti and that space aliens will get into his mind if he takes the foil wrapping off his head, and that particular atheist would hardly be a paragon of rational thought.

You may be right for all I know. Still - you cannot judge the group by the individual, and you cannot judge the individual by the group. If that is not what you are doing, then we have no disagreement.

I thank you for the courtesy of allowing that you might have been reading between the lines wrong.

That is not completely true. I myself want to see religion removed from the public realm. I wouldn't think of that as "imposing atheism" though. How would one impose atheism? How does one impose religion, as far as that goes.

Look at what communist regimes have done, particularly in the past. They closed down churches and outlawed some, if not all, religious practices. This is a favorite example brought up by people who want to say that atheists can be just as repressive as religious zealots. However, (1) I haven't met any atheists like that on DU, and outside the scope of DU the current "coming out" of atheists isn't at all typified by that kind of repressiveness by a long shot either, and (2) the communists were motivated by eliminating competition for communism, not so much by promoting atheism. The clearest, and still very current, example of that is North Korea, where Kim Jong-il and the deceased "Eternal President of the Republic" Kim Il-sung are for all practical intents and purposes worshipped as gods.

As for how religion is imposed, need you really ask? In the past there were plenty of places with imposed Christianity. Today, there's plenty of imposed Islam. In some Islamic countries you can be put to death for apostasy, for trying to leave the Islamic faith. If you don't start out Islamic, you might be barely tolerated, but you won't have all the rights that Muslims enjoy, and you may be forced to live within the constraints of Islamic law regardless of your own beliefs.

I wasn't quite so worried that I was losing sleep over it, but before Republicans fell out of power I was beginning to get a bit concerned about the inroads Fundamentalist Christians were making into the US government and military establishment. There are plenty of people in this country, as I said before, who would like to officially put the Bible ahead of the Constitution for the law of the land, who would turn public schools into religious schools, who would enforce Biblical law even to the extent of stoning homosexuals in the streets.

"Is a commitment to free and fair elections -- with no tolerance whatsoever for voting fraud -- election 'fundamentalism'?"

Yes, it could be. Of course.

By the way what is "voting fraud?" I think there is little or any fraud being committed during the act of voting, despite the right wingers attempts at suggesting that there is.

Expand the scope of your thinking to the 2000 and 2004 elections. I'm a bit insulted that you seemed to be so narrow in the scope of what you were willing to consider here that the only thing that seems to have come to mind for you is recent right-wing claims that somehow Obama's election was illegitimate.

This is getting a bit off on a tangent, but we need standardized voting systems with verifiable paper trails, improvements in voter registration procedures, and expansion of early voting programs. Things like the current election mess in Minnesota with Franken and Coleman just shouldn't happen in a modern technological society. We can and should do much, much better. People on both the right and the left have reason to be suspicious of the results of elections in our country, particularly close elections, and we'd all be better off if the reliability of our voting systems didn't offer so many reasons for people to question the validity of election results.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd guess that the only reason you were willing to consider commitment to free and fair elections a form of "fundamentalism" is that you made that evaluation while coloring your perception with the thought of right wingers arguing against the validity of Obama's election.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #232
233. thanks
Thanks for the discussion. We see this differently.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #164
208. Dawkins just wants to sell books
Is he making any money off all the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" stuff, BTW? That was his invention, wasn't it?

I'm not an atheist, but I don't have a problem with Dawkins. Certainly don't agree with his contention that I'm "delusional" for believing in God, but it's his opinion. Doesn't offend me at all.

Now Michael Newdow on the other hand.... don't get me started on that self promoting assclown.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #208
215. Dawkins was not the inventor of FSM.
That was a concept coined by Bobby Henderson in his letter to the Kansas School Board, protesting the teaching of Intelligent Design:

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #215
220. heresy!!!!
The FSM made us, we didn't make the FSM.



Hi Starry Messenger. :hug:
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #220
225. Oops! Uh-oh.
I hear the rustling of pasta coming for me now. :)

Hi Two Americas! :hug:
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #108
194. based on this experience
I find pagans to be obnoxious as those they oppose.


But then again, I find people with claims to special knowledges pretty obxnoxious in general...
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #194
221. there we go
All people in any group are to be judged by the actions of an obnoxious few?

Am I reading your message correctly? "Pagans are obnoxious."

At least the other member said some of the Dawkins followers.

This is truly humorous - arguing with zealous followers of someone who supposedly says that followers are lunatics. lol

I too find people with claims to special knowledge pretty obnoxious - such as those claiming to "know" how all of "them" are.




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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #194
230. My beef with the absurdity of many modern day pagans...
is their insistence on emphasizing the "woo woo" supernatural elements of a freaking NATURAL religion
A bunch of arrested adolescents playing at witches

They are every bit of the identity needy fools as the worst jesus fish sporting Baptists
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lob1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
63. I often tell people I'm a born-again atheist.
They have to think about that for about a half a second, and that gives me a one step headstart to get the hell out of there.
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Ishoutandscream2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
78. I do, too. Well, instead of "atheist" I say "agnostic"
I get some real looks when I say that here in red hell.
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sarah FAILIN Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #78
105. Oh, we must be neighbors. I live in red hell also!
We say agnostic because more people really don't understand it and I explain it that I'm not sure which religion flavor is the right one and if there is a God, I really don't want to piss him off by going to the wrong place ;)

The daughter has gone one step further and decided that she likes a couple of the tenets of Wicca and when people ask her she has started saying she's Wiccan. I'm going to let her explore it as long as she wants but I suspect it's just a novelty. She's never believed anything and I did take her when she was little so she would have her own choice.

This thread is kinda funny, I feel like I just came out of the closet.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
152. Q: What do you get when you cross an atheist with a Jehovah's witness?
A: Someone who knocks on your door for no reason at all.
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cilla4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
29. Golden Rule is unifying principle
I've often maintained atheism is one of the final frontiers of discrimination. Being a pagan is another "head-cocker" (you know, the look your dog gives you when you start speaking bird to her?).

I like being a Unitarian Univeralist - it fulfills my enjoyment of the social aspect of organized religion (using the term loosely) without feeling like they are raining on my parade too much. It's funny to see the reactions of some in the congregation to my pagan services (we are partially lay-led). Most really appreciate the diverse view; some won't attend those services! So there's still prejudice anywhere you look - even among the "most tolerant."

I think Obama is a UU. His grandmother had a UU memorial service in Hawaii over Christmas. I've been reading up on Bob Dylan after watching the great documentary "No Direction Home" about his early days. He went through a Christian phase. He now says he finds religion in the music. I think it's human to seek a non-material plane of truth and meaning; something that matters beyond the material. Esp. when people are in struggle or pain. Something to "cling to." Whether it's traditional Christianity - the soulful type, Kabbalah, Mother earth, or ethical living (I was raised by humanists), or none / all of the above, as long as you don't require I believe as you do, make it exclusive or require conformity, it's all good, in my view!
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
181. Why do UUs claim that everyone is a UU, even people who aren't?
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 11:49 AM by Critters2
Obama was UCC until the Repugs and Hillary types made that difficult, but he's never said anything to make one think he's UU. I was married to a UU, and got sooooo tired of the "everyone we like is a closet UU" bullshit. I was even told on more than one occasion that _I_ was a "closet UU". That kind of arrogance is one reason I never will be a UU.
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. My friends all know it.
I've told my son to pretend to believe until he gets older, because we live in the boonies and everybody's a Christian. He'll be talking about a zombie apocalypse or galaxies colliding and one of his friends will say "wouldn't God just save us?" and he says "Oh yeah. I forgot about God."
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Kellen RN Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
96. I'm getting the hell out of the bible belt as soon as I can
because I don't want to deal with that. Just don't want my kids to feel like I did growing up. I think I was in the closet with a couple of my closest friends at least until about the 11th or 12th grade for fear of them either trying to save me or them not being my friends anymore.

Thankfully my friends are good people and don't really care, but my fear seemed perfectly rational as a teenager.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
34. I sure am.
:toast:
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
38. not true
All of my friends are athiest except one. So that leaves me with 5 athiest buddies. Many people probably have no athiest buddies. I have no fundie friends.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. Try being polytheist
We catch shit form both sides.
We catch it from atheist because we are believers
We really catch it from monotheists.As bad as atheists have it at least there is no commandment saying thou shalt not be an atheist.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
62. Errrr....
What do you mean there is no commandment saying "thou shalt not be an atheist"?

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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
186. I'm assuming
...that he was talking about Exodus 20:3: "You shall have no other gods before Me." I'm not aware of any biblical passages saying "You shall have no non-gods in place of Me." Or something like that. :hi:

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thanks.
K&R
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pmorlan1 Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
46. Atheist/Agnostic here
I don't believe in god but I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I might be wrong if someone has evidence of that fact.

I once had a woman at work express shock when I told her that I was a non-believer. She said she couldn't believe it because I was so outspoken about civil rights and human rights. I was taken aback when she said that and I told her you didn't have to believe in god in order to believe in civil rights and human rights. I guess so many people involved in organized religion have been told that anyone who doesn't believe is somehow an evil person. I don't care if people believe in god. It doesn't bother me a bit except when they use god as an excuse to discriminate against others. I don't think a belief in god is bad but I do think organized religion can make it bad. Whenever the topic of religion comes up I just tell them I'm a heathen. LOL
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
94. Well, you're reasonable. It's all about the evidence.
Since there's none for any gods ever alleged to exist, I don't believe in any of them.

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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
47. It's rough. I live in Florida, and am surrounded by fundies.
I couldn't dare speak my mind when I ran for congress.

However I did open up when I spoke to a Americans United meeting.
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KathieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
79. I feel your pain. I'm in N. Central FL...fundie republicans everywhere.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #47
95. I grew up there. I could NEVER live there again.
NT!

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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
50. I am a skeptic
By that, I don't just mean that I research claims of paranormal events, alternative medicine, demon possesion, and all that - I am also a philosophical skeptic in that I owe much of my view on the world to folks like Sextus Empiricus, Michel de Montaigne, and others who are part of the tradition of Pyrrhonian skepticism. Boiled down to brass tacks, skepticism means learning how to find meaning and tranquility in life without an absolute standard of truth. At the same time, I postulate that there may well be a such thing as absolute truth, but trying to prove that it exists is another story entirely.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
51. My hubby and I are both atheists. His family has all but disowned us. But
some are right here when they say they attack with out really knowing (or caring) they attack. My m-i-l verbally attacked me in my home at the dinner table which I invited her to. She is telling the family that I "got in her face"( I have 3 witnesses) and the s-i-l is now telling people that "I am loosing it". That got back to my mom, who lives in a different state, and got her very worried about me. I'm just waiting for the day I see any of them, can't wait to ask them about my "mental illness". This all started over religion, or my lack there of.
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TheMickster Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
75. my m-i-l is a hoot too
Whenever we have family get togethers, she asks for "all the heathens to leave the room" before she does the prayer. I said o.k. but I'm taking my sweet potato casserol with me. ;P
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #75
169. Well at least she acknowledges your existence, mine doesn't anymore. The really
strange thing is we used to be really close, then out of no where she goes off on me.:shrug: Oh well I'm managing just fine with out her.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
197. I've been accused of the same when I speak up for myself with the inlaws.
My failure to stay a southern baptist sent my MIL over the edge...yet she projects it onto me. This is a woman that believes the Left Behind series are playing out right now. :eyes: I won't be alone with her anymore. When did living a rational life become a mental illness? Is this a new strategy fundies have for dealing with atheists?
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #197
205. LOL a mental illness because I DON"T hear voices?
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #205
207. Down the rabbit hole, Alice. :^)
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
52. I'm the Atheist that my friends are friends with.
I don't think I personally know any other atheists.
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penndragon69 Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
54. Here's one to throw at them.
Declare yourself a Buddhist Atheist!

If you really understand Buddhism, you know that there is no god, so a Buddhist Atheist really works!
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
55. I can tell you from personal experience that a lot of people don't know what "agnostic" means.
I used to tell people I was a "devout agnostic," but gave it up after a while when I noticed the most popular reply was "oh, that's nice."
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rambler_american Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
56. Penn Gillette on religion

Penn Gillette: "What I believe."
Morning Edition, November 21, 2005:

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond Atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The Atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-o and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
57. The majority of my close friends are athiests
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WoodyD Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
58. As usual, George Carlin got it right
as far as I'm concerned.

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!


Full text is here:

http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm

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Kellen RN Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
97. Possibly my favorite Carlin rant.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #58
122. +1 on Carlin, Woody. nt
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #58
173. That's been my sig line ever since Carlin died.
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CadenBlaker Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
60. I'm one of those friends. :)
I can happily say I am one of those friends that just so happens to be *gasp* an atheist!
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
64. Great post
I hope the trend which I think is happening that Atheists can come out and be honest about their belief or lack thereof. Maybe things are changing in this country.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
68. I'm married to one!
And he is about the most moral, honest, ethical man I know.

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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
69. I was raised Catholic but once I learned the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy, and
Santa Claus were myths, it didn't take any effort to add god to the list. I had a moment of self-doubt when I was about 12. I went to mass and tried to "get it" but then my rational side gave me a dope slap and told me I was just trying to please others.
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GoCubsGo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #69
151. Same here.
The funny thing is, I didn't actually start to really "get it" until I went to college. I went to a Jesuit school. They taught me how to think for myself. Ironically, they are the ones that turned me agnostic. I sometimes wonder if the Jesuits are really some sort of moles who are secretly trying encourage people AWAY from religious doctrine.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
72. Seeing how I AM an atheist...
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
74. After 25 years living in Wheaton, IL, Billy Graham's home base,
I can honestly say I didn't know a single other atheist other than my husband. "What church do you go to?" was without a doubt, one of the first questions in any conversation. Prosyletizing was a daily occurrence. Religiosity was/is ingrained in every aspect of life there (Wheaton College is squarely, prominently placed in the center of town).

Funny, sad, but true story: I took my car to a small local mechanic's shop with "Mechanics for Jesus" flyers advertising their meetings prominently placed. Since this is Wheaton, I know to just ignore that stuff. This guy was/is a good mechanic - family business that we trusted and they worked on everything - cars, trucks, horse trailers, scooters etc. Anyway, I came in to pick up one of our cars and there was a young woman sitting in the waiting room reading Richard Dawkins' book, "The God Delusion". I smiled and casually said, "great book!". She gasps. Literally gasps and says, "are you an atheist?!" I said I was. She jumps out of her seat and gives me a bone crushing hug. "Oh my gawd! she exclaims. "I didn't think there were any others here." She's almost crying with relief. My husband walks in at that moment and I point to him and say, "actually there's 2 of us in this town!" She runs over to him (he'd just walked in the door), and without explanation or hesitation gives him a big hug. Now this is a cute girl and my husband is giving me the big raised eyebrows as I'm laughing at her hugging him.

I explain that she's relieved to meet the two atheists in Wheaton. He smiles as our mechanic watches all of us with his most neutral, blank stare. We pay the bill, talking to this young woman as we walk out. We stand in the parking lot for more than a half hour as she's desperate for a discussion of the Dawkins book.

The fact remains that her isolation and estrangement from everyone in that town, because she was an atheist, rendered our meeting so incredible for her.

We moved in July to a smaller town farther west of Chicago. We stay pretty close to the farm here now so I haven't had a lot of interaction off the property but it will be interesting to observe the dynamics as we get to know more people.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #74
123. Great story. nt
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
77. Y'know, I grew up in a rightwing southern town. I had people shout
at me that I was going to go to hell because my religion wasn't exactly the same as theirs. During the early seventies, strangers regularly threw glass bottles at me from moving vehicles, and I'm pretty sure it was because I had long hair. Growing up, I regularly saw people scream really nasty things to women who the screamers thought just weren't pretty-looking enough. I heard more than enough people say that anybody who smoked marijuana should be shot. The first time I ever heard a racist "joke," I was in elementary school: it was vicious castration "humor." I was also in elementary school the first time anybody ever called me a "communist" -- and I was called that because I disagreed with some kid's dumb racist theories. Over the years, I heard people say there say they'd fire an employee for not being Christian, for being liberal, for supporting unions, and for all sorts of other reasons. It's certainly true folk there didn't like atheists, but that was the tip of the ice-berg: they didn't like anybody who was different. I knew one guy who really was arrested just because he had a European accent

You're preaching to the choir here. I suspect most DUers have known lots of open atheists: a number of my adolescent friends were atheists, and we had plenty of other stuff to talk about. I also suspect that quite a few of the religious folk here considered atheism carefully at one point or other: I read Russell's Why I am not a Christian when I was twelve, I read some of Marx's critique of religion as an undergraduate, and I took all that seriously

Your post illustrates, I think, one of the essential problems of modern US politics: Americans seem to think that politics is about "beliefs" rather than about organizing coalitions for meaningful change. Useful coalitions can be assembled from diverse groups that do not share "core beliefs": all that is needed is that the coalitions organize people who want to see the same change. But instead of doing that, we Americans prefer to babble about our "beliefs." For example, instead of discussing how health care decisions are made, and who makes them, and how people get to decide who will make health care decisions for them, we Americans wander off into a wilderness of abstract blather about whether or not we "believe" in gay marriage. It dissipates energy without producing results. Frankly, I don't think most people really give a rat's ass about my "beliefs," though they may welcome a "discussion" as an opportunity to express their "beliefs" -- and they are likely to take offense if I belittle their "beliefs." The same comment applies to my "nonbeliefs" and also to your "beliefs" or your "nonbeliefs." To assemble useful coalitions for meaningful change, it is necessary to avoid irrelevant discussions: all manner of technical details, about exact aims and strategies, need to be resolved, and these will create enough tension without wandering into a wilderness flame-war centering on irrelevant abstract philosophical issues. When there are legitimate public policy fights concerning, say, how to avoid using public funds to promote particular religious views, or how to ensure that science (rather than theology) is taught in public school biology classes, one needs to assemble coalitions to achieve particular ends, and these coalitions are likely to be successful only if they do not unnecessarily offend people. In many cases, one's religious views or non-religious views are irrelevant to the public policy fight

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KathieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
80. I'm an atheist, and the only other atheists I know are my "cyber friends"...
my family and friends are mostly christian, hubby is agnostic. Wish I could find a few atheist friends, but it doesn't seem to promising around here...I'm in ultra-conservative, fundie Marion County FL. :evilfrown:
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Aethertek Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
81. Stand up & be counted.
I always tell the fairytale believers that I hope their god does exist,... Just so I can knock him in his mouth when I die. Oh the reactions I get are so worth it.
When I feel charitable to their childlike belief though I'll simply say that if there is an afterlife we'll have to deal with whatever it is & if there is none we wont know it as our consciousness will simply end.
PS: Died once in the hospital, was on the machines for a few days, no bright lights nobody greeting me.
Grow up humans...accept your mortality, your all gonna die someday, so enjoy the ride.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #81
199. .......
"I always tell the fairytale believers that I hope their god does exist,... Just so I can knock him in his mouth when I die"

If you need help holding him down, I'll be more than happy to lend a hand! :D
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enuegii Donating Member (624 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
83. I'm sure all my friends would be fellow atheists...
if I had any friends here or if there were any other atheists around... this is Alabama, after all.

A couple of days ago, the local paper published an editorial referring to the studies mentioned in the OP bemoaning the current sad state of affairs in places like Vermont, which apparently led the states in "non-believers" or however it was phrased, while praising Alabamians for, as they put it, being "born with religion in their DNA".

Of course, I can't seem to recall the last time a Vermonter went on a tear across the state killing ten people, family and strangers alike, because he lost or was about to lose his job, either. And I think another murder/suicide here a day or two earlier. And I'm sure they were both "good Christians", too.

In fact, if you pick just about any set of statistical categories and rate them in terms of being "positive" or "negative," you would certainly find Alabama to rank very low in the former, education level, average income, lack of crime, average life-expectancy, for example, and very high in the latter, such as murder rate, poverty, divorce, and drug/alcohol addiction. Vermont, probably not so much.
But, you know, it's "God's country" here, as they like to say.

I'm looking to move...
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
84. I'm an Atheist...Swear to God.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
85. OUTSTANDING post. Wish I could give more than one rec.
I'm particularly encouraged by the younger generation being so full of atheists (aka nonbelievers, aka those with no religion). It's a very, VERY good sign!

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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
91. I don't have any religious friends.
It's hard for me to relate to people with rigidly-dogmatic morality.
Or rather it's hard for them to relate to me, I would say.


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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #91
115. You have to separate the hateful believers from the compassionate people who bend over backwards
to help out those in need every day. When people don't do that, they become judgmental and assume everyone of a certain 'type' is not someone you could ever be friends with. That's unfortunate.
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #115
118. I like to have sex with horses!
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 02:41 AM by Eryemil
Now that I got your attention.
It really has nothing to do with what you mention in your post.

It's the absolutist systems of morality encouraged by religion that puts us at odds.
This creates conflict when we discuss practically any serious subject since religious ideas are such a fundamental part of our culture.

Homosexuality is becoming more socially acceptable so many religious people seem ok with it but most of them do not arrive at that understanding through logical means from what I've seen. Even if they do they often fail to apply the same tools to many other concepts.

Sexual dynamics are a good example.

Bestiality
Incest
Polyamory
Promiscuity
Necrophilia

The average person with a dogmatic system of morality sort of short circuits when I tell them I don't believe any of them are "evil" or even necessarily objectionable.


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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #118
180. ha! you don't have to shock me to get me to read your posts.
I'm for people doing with their bodies as they feel they should, and feel we all are held accountable for our choices. If someone feels they want to be a prostitute or a total slut, it's their right and I defend it with my final breath. Who are any of us to judge what someone else feels is something they truly want to be or do. We have freedom of choice in this life even if most churches or in an equal percentage of cases, non-religious people, want to dictate what is acceptable, and sadly - they usually decide the laws. Personally, if you're not hurting anyone, you should be left the heck alone...

thanks for your post!
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #180
193. "Personally, if you're not hurting anyone, you should be left the heck alone..."
One of the most enlightened ideas floating around the humansphere!

Cheers!
:D
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #118
187. I doubt many atheists are a-ok with incest or necrophilia either
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 12:40 PM by WildEyedLiberal
You seem to imply that atheism = rejection of any moral structure at all. Most atheists I know would disagree with you - one's lack of belief in God has nothing to do with whether one thinks it's okay to fuck your sister. :eyes:

Of course, from the poster who trivialized pedophilia as an act that "isn't compatible with our cultural values," why am I not surprised?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #187
192. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sammythecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #91
198. I used to believe in God, now I don't
My morality hasn't changed in even the slightest way that I can tell.

I have many friends who believe in God and their sense of morality is just fine. I trust their sense of right and wrong.

I think it's fine to disapprove of religion, but I think it's foolish and wrong to disapprove of all people with religious beliefs. It's true there are many who are arrogant, obnoxious, ignorant, and mean, but you'll find that in any subset of people. Even atheists.

I try to "evaluate" people individually, one at a time. And if the first and only thing I learn about a person is whether or not they are a believer or unbeliever, then I still have almost no clue as to whether I'll approve of, or like, this person.
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NancyBotwin Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
98. Rational = people who can think for themselves.
The Asian heritage part cracked me up because I am asian!! Atheists all the way baby!
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Nice user name! The old theme song from 'Weeds' is very apt for this topic b/c so
much of the 'religiosity' of suburbia seems to be about conforming rather than any true spirituality. "Little boxes all the same...."


Welcome to DU! :hi:
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
99. I'm a divorced, re-married, middle-aged, non-Asian, female atheist.
After reading your post, I feel a little bit special. ;) Though I am a college graduate, so I didn't completely break the mold.

My husband is atheist too.

While I understand the 'comfort' religion gives to some, on balance, I think it has done more harm than good over the course of history.

In "Breaker Morant" (one of my all-time favorite movies-- go rent it NOW, you won't be sorry!) a 'pagan' is defined as "somebody who doesn't believe there's a divine being dispensing justice to mankind."

As for me, I don't think you have to believe in an afterlife to do good in this one.
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KTinOhio Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
102. I'm not an atheist...
...but I understand where you're coming from. I was an agnostic for about twenty years (college through late 30s), and if not for the logical impossibility of proving a negative, I might have been a full-fledged atheist.

I met my wife in 1982, and we were married four years later. She is a born-and-raised Southern Baptist from Kentucky, but she didn't go to church once in the four years we dated, so I figured she was a Baptist the same way I was a Lutheran. A dozen years later, she decided to start going to church regularly again. I went with her and the children for the sake of family togetherness, but I made it clear that I did not share Baptist beliefs. The next few years brought a series of intense arguments as she tried to bring me to her way of thinking. More than once, she stated that she didn't care if I went to hell but I wasn't going to take the children with me. My reply was that I had never misrepresented myself and that religion was never a problem in our home until she made it one. We didn't split up, but we weren't far from that point. (And in fairness, the assistant pastor of her church provided effective - and fair - counseling during our time of need.)

By then, I had decided that I wanted to return to some sort of spiritual life, but I knew I could never do it at her church. (I could say the same about at least two thirds of the churches in this country.) I checked out two local UU congregations and, while I appreciated the freedom, the lack of any real spirituality convinced me to keep looking. Soon after that, I found a very progressive Protestant (UCC) church, which I joined in 2002. I'm still a member, and I am active in service and educational activities. My wife and daughter still attend the Baptist church; my son (now 14) went with me for a while but has since decided that sleep is more important than church on Sunday morning.

So, am I a Christian? That depends on your definition. Many people would say I am not, as I do not accept most traditional Christian doctrine (e.g., the virgin birth, a physical resurrection, the trinity) or any sort of afterlife, and hold a very impersonal - almost deistic - view of God. My church is very open theologically (beliefs range from moderately evangelical to new age, so my Unitarian leanings are not at all out of place) and tolerant on social issues, and has been picketed twice for its support of same-sex relationships. But we take our mission to serve seriously, because we're all childen - metaphorically speaking, of course - of the same God. And isn't that the heart of the progressive message, even if some prefer to express the same idea in non-religious language?

Anyway, keep the faith, or lack thereof. I've spent enough time on your side of the street to know you're good folks. Any God who would condemn you for your thoughts isn't worth worrying about. It's your actions that matter.



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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
103. I'm pretty friendly with myself, so
yes, I'm friends with an atheist.

I used to care what other people think about me as an atheist, but now I don't. Personal belief systems, or the lack thereof are just that -- personal. I just wish other folks would keep their personal religious belief systems out of government affairs.

On the other hand, I have no problem with others practicing their religious rituals. In fact I'm supportive of people who have the desire or need to practice religious rituals, and I have joined them from time to time. Christmas as kid, and when my own kids were young, funerals, weddings, praying with people at public prayers, and the like. (No, I don't feel like a hypocrite. I don't lie, or pretend to be something I'm not.)

Interesting article.



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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
107. this is awesome!!!
I have friends!!! How did this happen?
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
109. say it loud, atheist and proud!


i for one certainly am, tyvm. :)

btw, i'm a little surprised by the stats in the OP - last time i checked, 7% of all Americans identified themselves as atheists;

and i was SHOCKED by how low that number was compared to Europe (where i was born and pretty much raised in).
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Onceuponalife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
111. I'm an atheist since age 18
that's 25 years. Great thread. Hopefully, I'll have time later to share more of my story.

K&R!
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
113. I am one and I live with one.
We met at a large urban Unitarian church.

I moved to a little town in East Jesus (excuse me, East Texas).

People invite us to church. I tell them I am a Unitarian and they stare uncomprehendingly. If I explain what a Unitarian is, then they stare uncomprehendingly some more.

:grr:

As a result we don't have any friends here and we have no social life.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
117. Oh, there's no doubt about it.
Even among church-goers there are enough folks who'd qualify as atheists, even if they wouldn't self-identify as such. That is, people who don't believe in anything supernatural -- no talking snake, no miracles, no risen Christ, no afterlife -- people who attend for social reasons.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
119. My only friends are my cats, and they worship Bast.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #119
175. I'm an atheist, but cat worship makes perfect sense to me. I do it every day.
:)

All Hail Bastet!
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #175
200. Meowmen
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
125. I always kinda' liked Woody Guthrie's approach to religion . . .
As Woody was being checked in to the hospital, an orderly began asking him a bunch of questions, one of which was "Religion?"

To which Woody replied "All."

"Oh, Mr. Guthrie, I can't put 'All' on the form!" the orderly exclaimed.

"Then just put 'None.'" said Woody.

not a bad way of looking at things, imo . . .
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BirminghamExaminer Donating Member (943 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
126. Try being an athiest in Alabama like me.
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BEZERKO Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. Or an atheist in Georgia like me, actually
I lived about ten years in Meriwether County, home to Warm Springs, beautiful countryside, about 30 miles from the Alabama border. Both of my parents are from Alabama. Around 2002, I started trying to get politically active. I started to meet a lot of like minded people in 2003 in the surrounding areas. A lot of the people I met in these rural areas who were active in politics are atheists, a lot of them. The hardest thing though is my family. My mom never talked about her religious inklings, my dad is straight up southern baptist. I compare it to someone who doesn't smoke and hates the smell of cigarette smoke, like me funny enough. Going to family reunions on my dad's side is like walking into the smoking section of a bar. Ugh, I'm outta here!
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sarah FAILIN Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #126
176. I'm just north of you in the city that has a church on every corner.
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 11:35 AM by sarah FAILIN
It's horrible.
Actually, one of our churches has been making the news lately for their sex sermons, lol! This place is one of those that even the kids talk about their religion... right before they sneak out to meet their friends for a kegger ;)
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droidamus2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
128. Maybe
Maybe I'm a little dense but I have no problem telling people I'm an agnostic with strong atheistic leanings and I don't really pay much attention to how they react because I don't really care. Just as I don't find the fact that they have faith all that important to me I don't find their acceptance or lack of acceptance of my atheism all that important. On the other hand I grew up in Northern California and now live in Vermont and have never been to the deep south so I might feel different when confronted with large numbers of rabid bible-thumpers (but I doubt it there problem not mine).

On a side note, as I read on another DU thread, I don't really see agnostic and atheism to be on the same philosophical line so to speak. Atheism deals with whether there is or isn't a god, whereas agnosticism deals with whether it is even possible to know if there is a god or not. So in my view from a philosophical perspective if there was a god I don't think it would be possible to prove it but in any case I don't think there is a god.
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rucognizant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
129. So0?????????
Where is the food bill proposed by ROse Delaurio???????
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
133. I am one of those friends...
Us godless heathens are not allowed to speak out at all or we will be labeled "Angry Atheist"...Yet we are told on almost a daily basis that we are scum and can look forward to burning in hell. Part of the fault lands at the feet of those who do not believe in a SkyDaddy yet they complain when someone like Richard Dawkins comes right out and shows in great detail how ridiculous "faith heads" are. They also complain when someone like Daniel Dennett uses a much more passive approach. The godless need to be proud of who they are and quit trying to make the "faith heads" happy while they continue to tear down the wall of seperation!

I understand first hand how important religion is to many people but I will no longer respect their beliefs until they start to respect mine!
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
134. Late out of the closet,
I'm an atheist, and have no problem saying so, especially to anyone who tries to inflict their fairytale beliefs on me. (which, in truth, is about the only time it really comes up.)
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pink-o Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
136. ...and I am that friend, my friends!
I'm the agnostic, the one in that pie chart. I am also out and proud, like most misfits of society who find sanctuary (ironic but apt choice of words!) in San Francisco.

We've been hearing chatter about this study for a week or so now, and it's very heartening to see. Once you have "one of those" in your family or among your close friends, it catapults the understanding--y'know: it ***humanizes*** us!
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
139. Heh
My *only* friends are aethists, as am I. It just worked out that way.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
144. Discrimination? Maybe in politics but thats a draw back to letting people decide
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 08:21 AM by stray cat
I see more job discrimination against someone overtly or annoyingly religious - becomes they may not be serious enough about a job or may annoy co-workers. I have never seen anyone discriminated against in a job hunt because of atheism - however smart people usually don't preach their religious beliefs or lack thereof on the job.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
145. The difficulty
is also in part in trying to defend a negative. I'm agnostic, although I completely reject any current version of a creator deity, and all religions. Whatever "God" may or maynot be, it's nothing we've even come to explaining. (I'm reading Jung's "Answer to Job) and I must say, Jung had some serious sapladores in his attempt to psychoanalyze the biblical Yahwah through human archetypes)

Nearly everyone grows up with the idea of some sort of deity. When those of us who don't have the mental make up to believe in "God" and I'm one of them-- deal with the majority of people who do, it can be disconcerting. Personally, I try to be polite, and I simply avoid zealots or evangelists. I do get along very well with most religious people in my life and we often have great conversations about it, they don't try to convert me, and I don't disrespect their sense of faith.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
146. I've been an Atheist since I was 17.
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 08:29 AM by Odin2005
It seems like when I tell people I don't believe in their fairly tale it leaves them flabbergasted, as if they can't comprehend a lack of belief in such fairy tales. Fortunately my (generally non-practicing but still religious) Lutheran parents don't have a problem with it though they still don't "get" it. People are pretty tolerant of non-belief here in the Upper Midwest.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
148. "This makes very little sense to me...
...except as a description of personality types found in any human population."

Well then it makes a LOT of sense to you...lol.

Seriously though, it never crosses most people's minds that I may be an atheist. And even if it comes up and I straight out tell them that I am, I suspect some or most of them don't really believe it. It's weird.

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
150. I tell people I worship at
Our Lady of the Erroneous Assumption. They look perplexed for a moment, then laugh.

Seriously, this is simply not an issue here in Canada. Nobody cares what you believe.

I am a member of the third generation of atheists in a family that is now into its fourth generation of heresy. I've become the black sheep because I've I've gone spiritual on them (through eating a a tasty homemade stew of Deep Ecology, pantheism and Zen Buddhism with a touch of Neopagan flavouring).

I have no use for organized religion, in the same way that I have no use for most hierarchic social control mechanisms. Most organized religions have more in common with politics than spirit. In the same vein, I have no use for Abrahamic monotheistic patriarchal gods. They are an expression of man's dualism and our need to dominate, and so are spiritually toxic.

But as I said, up here among God's Frozen People nobody gives a Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
154. I have a lot of self-esteem........n/t
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
157. I Think There are More Atheists Than Most Realize
the reason I say this is because most don't tell others they are atheists, unless they feel comfortable about announcing it... and usually if announced it is done so in the context of a conversation that may be dependent on that announcement. I certainly do not announce it unless asked and depending on who asks. It's my business...
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
161. I suppose I should check in.
Thanks for the word, ds. Yes, I am an atheist, more or less. I know for sure that this huge and wonderful universe, of which we have only observed a tiny fraction, was not created by some magic monkey who is particular about the foods we eat and how we sell our daughters into slavery. There is room in this universe for a power far larger and more rational than that, though I've not seen anything to suggest it.

I think I have a pretty strong code of ethics as well. I know that my time on this planet is finite and my end will be final. I love human beings, though some of them piss me off, and I know that the only shot I have at some sort of immortality comes from my contribution to the betterment of society. I choose not to defer others' relief from suffering until death, because for me it is the quality of life which makes people great and allows them to reach their greatest potential.

Most atheists, whether they know it or not, practice some variation of positivism, so we are not bereft of morals or ethical practice. If you ask me, we practice better morals and ethics, because ours derive from rational thought based upon observation, rather than coming from a pissed off shaman who is getting tired of his wife throwing the sciatic nerve of a cow in the soup.

I am a Democrat because I have seen them actually attempt to practice the values and morality that I share. I am a Democrat because I, too, am a hated minority, and I therefore have the smallest understanding of what other minorities experience. I am a Democrat because I have no intention of taking what I have with me; in fact I believe my life will have been wasted if I cannot share some of my knowledge and experience and compassion with others. I am a Democrat because I am not a criminal--or not as much of a criminal as any Republican political leader, because I do not wish to bend anyone to my religious views, and because I do not fear facts and information. I am a Democrat because I need to help, however little that is.

And, I'm a Democrat because you kids put up with my crap. So I'd like to give all of you a word of thanks for that.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
162. Excellent....!
K&R :hi:
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bobbert Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
166. Missionaries/mormons are annoying as hell
I don't want to admit I'm not a christian because then people will just try to change me. If I just leave it in the open and let them assume whatever they want, then they just leave me alone. I know many of my friends are of different religions and many are atheist, but it's really just a personal choice and there's no reason to flaunt it. It's easy to tell who the devout christians are, and I just avoid them altogether.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #166
170. Some are kind of fun to play with though....
Like the ones who say God put dinosaurs in the ground to give us fossil fuels.:eyes:
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
172. Pardoning the obvious cliche, some of my best friends are athiests or agnostics...
....or at least subscribe to no formal belief system.

All that said, I don't know where you are getting at when you say atheists don't have "equal rights" in this country. As far as I know, there are no actual laws currently on the book that infringe on any actual legal rights of atheists. I think if there were any attempts at passing any such law, any reasonable court would strike it immediately down. That type of thing just doesn't exist at this day and age. Atheists can vote, get married, assemble where they want to, or engage in any type of activity that the constitution protects.

With all this aside, I do sometimes wonder why the act of atheism is made out to be such a complexity, whether it is by critics of atheism or atheists themselves. As far as I can see, the concept of atheism is very simple and can be explained basically in one sentence: "I don't believe in God." Why then is there such an effort to go all out, write 300 page books on the topic, hold seminars, group sessions, etc. on such a simple concept. I never really understood that thinking.





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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
174. Oh, shit! Give me a f*cking break!
Those who get along without God are not lynched or stoned in this country, but neither do they have equal rights or acceptance.


We have a significant segment of the population of this country that has no right to get married or to enjoy the benefits of such unions, and Prop 8 in California recently put a stake through their hearts. And you have the goddam balls to say bullshit like this?

Get over yourself.
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
177. I know a lot of them
two friends, my brother, my niece, my nephew, my kid, her boyfriend - and they are all some of the most generous and loving people that I've ever known.

Good piece!
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Number9Dream Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
182. Historical Catholic - Long-time Agnostic - thanks DavidSwanson
I was raised Roman Catholic, confirmed etc., but by the time I entered college I was agnostic. I remember seeing "Inherit The Wind" with Spencer Tracy when I was in junior high, and it raised many questions in my young mind.
Now, I work in a small company of 13 people. I'm the only non-theist and have experienced the subtle non-acceptance mentioned in the OP.
Thanks David Swanson for this insightful post.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
184. I am an atheist
and I do not hide it from anyone. I am not usually the first to throw it out but if asked, I have no problem letting people know.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
188. Hard-Core Non-Theist here!!! K&R
Edited on Fri Mar-13-09 12:45 PM by ProudDad
All Buddhists are atheist, agnostic and non-theist, aren't we?

Thanks!
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iscooterliberally Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
189. Atheist friends
I was born and raised Catholic. I went to all Catholic schools from K though 12. I was pretty much tied up in the corner and fed Jesus with a slingshot. I now consider myself to be a Cat-lick, as in feline cats. You just haven't lived until you've had your entire face bathed by a greatful baby kitten. I don't sweat what other people believe. This is America and you can believe whatever crazy stuff you want to believe. People put too much emphasis on belief. What we actually know is far more important.
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Number9Dream Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #189
190. Welcome to DU iscooterliberally
from another ex-Catholic.
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iscooterliberally Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #190
191. Thank you
Number9Dream. It's good to be here!
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FudaFuda Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
201. Atheism, like religion, is a belief in the unprovable.
Outspoken atheists are no different to me than outspoken religious folk. All worked up over something we can't possibly KNOW or PROVE, and insisting the rest of us agree with them. What's the difference?

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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #201
209. Atheism is not a belief.
It's the absence of belief in a god or gods.

:hi:
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FudaFuda Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #209
212. No, it's the belief in the absence of gods.
It's opinion, therefore it can only be considered a belief. It is not knowledge.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #212
213. If that's what you need to believe...
...then go ahead and knock yourself out.

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #209
222. it shouldn't be
But for some it most clearly is.

There are hundreds of things we encounter every day that others believe in, and that we do not. Nothing especially remarkable or unusual about that. If we truly merely do not believe, then there would be no cause for arguing an alternative belief. claiming that one;ls beliefs are an absence of belief is simply a clever way to avoid acknowledging and defending one's beliefs.

There are all sorts of beliefs floating around out there that we run into much more frequently than we do belief in God, that are far more dangerous to oppose, and that are far more important. The whole everyone-has-a-price sell yourself on the open market belief system, the pervasive faith in materialism as an explanation for human behavior, the assumptions of self-centered motives - you refute that at your own risk. The idea that money derived from investments and rentals and the like - try telling people that this money is not earned. Try telling people that the problem of poverty represents something seriously wrong with the winners rather than the losers. Try challenging the concept of the "winner" society at all, in any way.

Hell, you can't even get people here to stop believing that the MSM is presenting reality to them, or to stop believing that they are not being brainwashed by it. 99% of what is posted at DU reflects beliefs, faith-based thinking. The subject of God hardly ever comes up, except from self-proclaimed atheists.

Why is God so important, so special for some atheists? Ask them this, and they will come back with a belief system, an elaborate theory about religion being the root of all - can I say this? - evil. If only everyone believed as we do - that religion is very important, that the only "right" way to be is to reject it all, and if only everyone saw the world as composed of two groups - the good people who do not believe in God, and the bad people who do.

That is so clearly and obviously a belief system at work for some atheists. Part of that belief system is believing they are superior, or on the right track, or holding special knowledge and wisdom merely by virtue of their attacks on religion. There is no evidence for that.



...
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-13-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
202. Atheist here, checking in.
I live in the Bay Area (CA) and don't encounter much in the way of talibornagains to get on my case about church. My students ask me what religion I am sometimes and I tell them that I'm an atheist. Sometimes they are taken aback (one exclaimed "Don't let the Big Guy hear you say that!" :)) or confused. Usually they just take it in stride or one to two will admit that they are atheists, too.
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WoodyD Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #202
214. God, guns and football
I live in rural Montana, and we own a small lakefront area and boat dock in common with five other neighbors. Occasionally we get together for maintenance of the area. A couple of years ago we were trying to schedule just such a work day. Knowing my neighbors regularly attend church, I suggested the following Saturday.

Heads turned. Jaws dropped. "Saturday? That's the (local college football team) game!"

Football easily trumped god. We scheduled the work for Sunday.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
217. It's intersting that you refer to a "mythical daddy figure to threaten and reward you for
Edited on Sat Mar-14-09 04:42 PM by Joe Chi Minh
it".

Why not "canons of behaviour originating from outside one's self", on the basis of a recognition that the very term, "intelligent design", predicates both the intelligence and purpose of a creator? The expression, "random design", is a contradiction in terms; "random pattern", not. They area a priori, ineluctable truths concerning the meanings with which we have invested those words.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
229. yes, several, one even observes x-mas
:shrug:
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