Some eye opening statistics on education

[Joe Fields]

There has been a lot of discussion, rather heated, I might add, about the need for merit pay for teachers. I've known that our system needs overhauling for years. I also believe that teachers, while not solely responsible for the current problem DO, in fact bear responsibility for a significant share of blame for our poor performance on the world stage, with regard to quality education. Here are some eye popping statistics with links. Now, I won't presume to sit here and pretend to have the answer as to how best go about it, but teachers MUST be held accountable for classroom performance in some manner.



INPUT


Currently, the United States spends 7.4 percent of its GDP on public education, second highest in the world. (Switzerland ranks #1.)

From 1995-2006, expenditures per student rose 25 percent (adjusted for inflation). Average expenditure per student is approximately 11,000 dollars.

While public school funding rose 29 percent, from 1985-2008 (adjusted for inflation), enrollment increased only 20 percent.

Student/teacher ratios have fallen to an avg. of 23 students/teacher. (middle of the pack of 23 countries surveyed. Rank: 10th. Switzerland ranked 1st, with an average of 18 students/teacher.)

Average teacher salary in the U.S.: $50,816.00 (2008 Dept. of Ed. statistics)



PERFORMANCE




From 1992-2007: Average student performance: Negligible improvement in reading, slight improvement in math abilities, slightly lower scores in the sciences. Even with the slight improvement in math scores, American 15 year olds ranked a dismal 24th out of 29 countries surveyed in mathematical performance.

Graduation rates: The U.S. ranks 16th out of 21 surveyed countries . Only 73 percent of American students graduate from High School.

The U.S. is 12th out of 21 countries surveyed in post secondary graduation rates.


CONCLUSION

We are near the top, in terms of our investment in education, but rank near the bottom in terms of outcome, when compared to other countries. Are we STILL to take the position that teachers aren't to blame for some of this? Still want to put ALL of the blame on everyone else?








http://www.oecd.org/document/34/0,3343,en_2649_39263238_35289570_1_1_1_1,00.html

http://nces.ed.gov/

[msongs]

1. school hours and days, student behaviors allowed, parental neglect etc

social and cultural values of education compared to students/schools in various states and other countries. lots of horses to beat in this matter.

our area has low test scores generally. our area has lots of non-english speaking students. our area has tests that have to be read, written, and taken in ENGLISH only even if students cannot speak, read, or write any English. wonder if that has any effect on scores and the perceived quality of teachers?

yep, lots to be said about the condition of education in this country.

Msongs

[Joe Fields]

14. no question that these are issues that must be amended to answer

the needs of each individual community. Don't read anymore into what I wrote that isn't there. I have stated numerous times in these discussions that a whole range of issues must be amended. But the MAIN issue I am addressing is the complete denial by almost every teacher on this board that they have some blame to share. All I get from here is, "it's not my fault, it's-----(fill in the blank.)

That argument has no credibility.

[roguevalley]

16. teachers are a piece of the puzzle but not the only one. Even Obama

said parents have to pull their heads out of their butts and be parents. I could only do what I could with what I had for the kids I got.

[sense]

51. excuses, not helpful

Abdicating again.

[roguevalley]

58. I taught school, k-6 for 27 years. I have been up and down the

hell hill over trying to make things better. I have battled the central office year after year for one more teacher so that my partner and I didn't have to try and fit 36 kids each into our too small and understocked rooms for a whole year. I have been a state and local officer in my union. I have done rights and been on committees and all the rest of that fucked up shit. Don't lecture me on this issue unless you can lay some bonafides on the damned table. Abdicating? You are full of it. You have no damned idea.

Edit: Why should anyone take anyone serious who won't show a profile?

[sense]

87. You are making my point

Why should you have to fight with the central office? Why should you have to deal with that many students alone? Why should it all be made so difficult for everyone, parents, students and teachers? You are clearly frustrated by the system and that is what I keep saying! The system is broken!

You can't look at my profile so you can decide which box you would put me in, so I'm irrelevant? Funny.

[roguevalley]

123. why should I? because that is education now. as for the profile, I don't put

much stock in people who hide, which almost all trolls on this forum do. Just know that if you have no profile, whether it is just a thing you want to do because you're shy or whatever, trolls on this board hide their profiles.

[sense]

125. Ok, good to know.

I'm not a troll. Just a very private person. Always have been, always will be. :-)

[ourbluenation]

69. oh please give me a big, fat break. walk a frigging mile in a teachers shoes then

we can talk. This entire merit discussion is ridiculous.

[sense]

88. I home school due to

the failure of public school. I've walked more than a mile. Get over yourself.

[Gormy Cuss]

133. Homeschooling isn't even vaguely like walking in a school teacher's shoes.

Get over yourself.

[droidamus2]

2. First question is...

Do the per student spent numbers only include what is actually spent in the classroom or does it include administrative, building and maintenance costs? It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of that money ends up in the offices and pockets of administrators which obviously wouldn't equate to better prepared students. Second question, does the average teacher salary include college and university professors or only elementary and secondary teachers. If it includes the college level I would suspect that causes the numbers to skew a little higher.

As far as improving the performance of our schools maybe it is time to look at some radical changes. Does it make sense to try to push students through the system just because they happen to be approximately the same age. Shouldn't the emphasis be on making sure each student learns the subject matter up to a reasonable level of understanding. By this I mean, how about if we structure schools so that the higher achievers can move ahead at their own speed whereas the slower learners will get the extra help and time they need to absorb the necessary learning. The current system is set up somewhat like a factory and pushes students ahead just because they are 'supposed to be in grade x if they are y years old). Obviously my suggestion makes it much more difficult to track the students and where they are in the curriculum but it would do much more to assure that every student achieves a certain level of education.

[mike_c]

3. the first rule of responsibility is that if you're accountable for problems...

...you should have authority to seek solutions. Most teachers, IMO, do not have that authority.

I do, for the most part, because I teach university courses (and my job title is professor, rather than teacher, incidentally), so I have no problems with being held accountable for my courses because-- mostly-- I get to choose what to teach and how to teach it.

Most elementary and secondary school teachers are far more constrained-- many make few decisions about curricula or teaching methods.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the need for educational reform in America, and about the relatively poor job public education does. I see it every year in my lower division biology classes. I can think of at least a dozen major policy changes I'd make to strengthen elementary and secondary education, and any foray into the educational literature will yield a few dozen more.

But teachers rarely have the flexibility to implement these, and can almost NEVER make systematic changes beyond their classrooms, where reform is most needed. So while I COMPLETELY agree about the need for reform, and I also agree that reform should be extended to teacher training and certification, I just can't bring myself to blame the folks who have the least authority to implement change. If we're going to hold teachers accountable for student success, then we have to give them whatever authority they need to implement the most successful pedagogy they can, and full responsibility (and support) for finding it. That is almost NEVER the case.

[redqueen]

8. Thank you.

Very well said.

[depakid]

12. "I see it every year in my lower division biology classes."

Just be thankful that you don't teach in the South or Lower Midwest.

To wit:

AS ALL GOOD TEACHERS KNOW, STUDENTS WILL work much harder for extra-credit points than at the assigned task. I like to take advantage of this convenient trait in my introductory course on evolution. Once my students--nonscience majors at a midwestern land-grant university-understand the basic terms, I offer additional points for answering the questions I really want them to investigate. Find a dozen differences between the skeletons of a chimpanzee and a human being, I challenge them; tell me how a human female skeleton differs anatomically from a male.

The male and female skeletons I display are exemplary in their difference, and since most students should be able to guess what that difference is if they don't already know, I usually feel confident that the final answer is a giveaway. I say "usually" because seven years ago, the first time I taught the course, I got a surprising answer that still crops up with alarming regularity. Five minutes into the lab period, a young woman announced that she could answer the question without even examining the human skeletons.

I waited silently for her to explain that the female pelvis is shaped slightly differently from the male's, with a larger opening for childbearing. That part was the giveaway. The real purpose of the exercise was to make her prove her conjecture with measurements-to translate the theory to practice. I also wanted her to explain why this sexual dimorphism--that is, this sexually determined physical difference-is not nearly so pronounced in nonhuman primates, such as chimpanzees.

She spoke: "Males have one fewer pair of ribs than females."

I was totally unprepared for her answer. My mandible dropped. After a moment's reflection, I realized she must be referring to the biblical story in which God creates Eve from one of Adam's ribs. My student was someone who believed in the literal truth of the Bible, and it was her religious belief, not her previous knowledge of human anatomy, that made her so sure of her answer. This was going to be a challenge.

<snip>

I stalled for time. "Have you actually counted the ribs?" I asked. She admitted that she had not. "Well, since this is a science class," I admonished, "let's treat your statement as a hypothesis. Now you need to test it." So off she went to the back of the room, full of confidence that God would not let her down. The breather gave me a chance to plot out what I hoped would be an enlightened, and enlightening, approach to the crisis her assumption had precipitated.
--------

Interesting article that outlines some of the more frustrating challenges some teachers (and professors) face:

https://www.msu.edu/~rootbern/evolution/darwinsrib.html

[mike_c]

29. .

:wow:

[XemaSab]

33. .

[depakid]

40. Hemmingway's cats AKA Cardicats

One of the polydactyl cats at the Ernest Hemingway House in Key West, Florida. This particular cat has 7 (2 extra) toes on each paw.
---------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydactyl_cat

Also- the original article link: http://discovermagazine.com/1995/sep/darwinsrib561
---------

Regarding the current controversy- this guy definitely deserves a raise. Call it combat pay. Or something.

[Posteritatis]

86. That's a neat article (nt)

[crimsonblue]

127. what a terrible way to teach evolution...

if you forcefully throw something into somebody's face, they aren't going to believe you. The only way you can convince creationists that evolution exists is by building the basics of micro-evolution and building from there. Starting with the whole man-monkey thing is retarded and counter-productive.

[Joe Fields]

15. so, Mike, you don't believe in personal responsibility?

Is that what I am to gather from your comment? You don't think it's a teacher's duty to give their students their best effort? You don't think it's a teacher's duty to find a way to inspire children? Don't lay this all off onto the administrators. There is plenty of blame to go around for our inadequate public education system. Teachers share some of that. But not here. Oh noes!!!!

[mike_c]

25. not without authority, no....

Let's be clear about that, because you've already begun putting words into my mouth that I didn't actually say, or even come near saying, e.g. "You don't think it's a teacher's duty to give their students their best effort?", and "You don't think it's a teacher's duty to find a way to inspire children?" If you can find those statements, or anything like them in my response, I'll accept rebuke in advance.

If you don't find them, let me clarify: I do not believe it is acceptable to make teachers responsible for student success if they don't have the authority to seek the best ways to teach and the best learning outcomes to strive for. You don't tie someone up in the trunk of a car and then blame them if the car has an accident.

Very few elementary and secondary school teachers have that authority, so it's not appropriate to hold them responsible when the system they're not given many choices about fails.

In fact, I do believe in "personal responsibility" when teachers have the necessary authority-- that's one reason that I think America still has one of the best higher education systems in the world. My colleagues and I have lots of responsibility for students success in our classes, but we also have the authority, at least much more so than most elementary and secondary teachers, to decide what to teach and how to teach it.

[Joe Fields]

34. Mike, to me that's a cop out. I strongly disagree with you.

[mike_c]

37. making people responsible for events they don't have authority to change...

...is generally called scapegoating.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. :hi:

[Joe Fields]

35. you have discounted all arguments by saying that without authority, you have no responsibility.

Hogwash. Complete hogwash. So tell me Mike, when did us progressives get a pass on personal responsibility?

[mike_c]

39. you're putting words into my mouth again....

Where did I say that "progressives get a pass on personal responsibility?" I NEVER said that.

In fact, I said "I do believe in "personal responsibility" when teachers have the necessary authority-- that's one reason that I think America still has one of the best higher education systems in the world."

[Joe Fields]

68. you keep adding that caveat, anfd that discounts your whole argument.

Since you keep saying it, then you are tacitly saying that you do not believe in personal responsibility.

[tigereye]

60. what the hell does "personal responsibility" actually mean in this context?

Teaching can be incredibly difficult - particularly for a large group. Teachers put in hours per day developing lesson plans, dealing with student issues, finding the best methods and analogies to get points across, taking work home, buying materials for kids that don't have money for them and dealing with cumbersome bureaucracy. They work hard to help kids learn and get frustrated and try to fix the problem (and many kids have different learning styles)


That sounds like responsibility to me. And he's right, what does being progressive have to do with it?

[Hannah Bell]

83. he said nothing of the sort. you're grinding your own ax & not even reading what he writes.

or maybe you read it, but your comprehension skills are poor.

[Joe Fields]

89. you both are using a circular argument.

Let me go slowly for you. Mike said that , if he has no authority, then he has no responsibility, either professionally or personally. His words, not mine. Re-read HIS post, if you can't understand that statement. That you fail to comprehend that is not my problem, but I wonder how you go through life with such limited cognitive skills. I do hope you aren't a teacher.

[Hannah Bell]

109. nope, he said this:

"the first rule of responsibility is that if you're accountable for problems you should have authority to seek solutions. Most teachers, IMO, do not have that authority."

teachers teach a mandated curriculum using mandated methods in a mandated space & time, get credentialed in the mandated way, administer mandated tests to students who are mandatorily assigned to their classrooms, using whatever materials are affordable from the budget the local taxpayers vote for them.

yet teachers are held accountable for 99% of students' success or failure.


tell me, what do *you* do for a living? i made a list of ways teachers are accountable which you didn't deign to respond to, since you're much more interested in grinding your ax & putting words in people's mouths.

let's compare the degree to which you're "responsible" for results in your workplace.

[XemaSab]

36. But the pisser with the authority given to college profs is apparent to anyone

who has even considered taking a certain plant-oriented introductory biology class at your esteemed university.

Do you want Dr. Death, the bryophyte nerd, Sgt. Mushroom, the stoner hippie who thinks God is in the plants... It's an ugly grab bag to reach into. :(

[Hannah Bell]

84. sounds like either would be well-worth the price of tuition.

[XemaSab]

96. Those are four different teachers

One of them had a reputation for being a good teacher. :P

[Hannah Bell]

111. ah. i read it as dr. death, the bryophyte nerd, & sgt mushroom, the stoner.

which of the 4 was the good one?

[XemaSab]

112. Sarge

:D

[Hannah Bell]

113. but he wasn't a stoner? so what was the sarge about?

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Administrators have a much larger impact on achievement than teachers do

They organize the buildings. They assign students. They hire and fire teachers. They place teachers in schools and in individual classrooms. They buy supplies. (Since I got none this year I don't think it is fair to hold me accountable.)

They set up the calendar and determine the school hours. They configure the bus routes. (And yes, the ride to and from school can have a huge impact on how well a child performs.) They set up lunch schedules.

They make curriculum decisions. They write curriculum. They write tests. They buy textbooks. They decide which textbooks to buy.

They set policy.

They organize and plan professional development.

They establish a dress code.

They set up attendance policies. (Do you penalize kids for missing school? Do you call parents after one absence or wait until 10?) And this is extremely important because attendance is a criteria for AYP. A school can have perfect test scores but fail to make AYP if their attendance is below 94%.

So yes we can lay 99% of this on administrators. Yes indeed.

And research agrees.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2112828
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED493288&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED493288
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED479288&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED479288
http://www.aasa.org/publications/saarticledetail.cfm?ItemNumber=4508

[Joe Fields]

70. Bullshit. They are not in the classroom. Teachers are, though.

[GreenPartyVoter]

46. And if they can't inspire the kids who refuse flat out to be reached in any way, then what?

[Joe Fields]

71. Then they aren't trying hard enough.

[GreenPartyVoter]

Because every kid's attitude can be turned around just like *snap*. If it takes

several teachers a few years to really get to such a child, then won't the first teacher who planted the seed not be rewarded simply because (s)he wasn't the teacher in charge of the child when (s)he finally blossomed? In fact, because you couldn't see measurable improvement inside this kid's head while (s)he was in this teacher's charge you might even say the teacher was a bad teacher for not producing the results you wanted when you wanted them.

Nice.

[wickerwoman]

82. What subjects have you taught?

When, where and for how long?

I'm writing a number in my secret envelope and we'll see if they match.

[Joe Fields]

90. I live in a cave and only come out once every 52 years.

I am chiseling a number on a stone tablet, to see how old you are, and how much life experience you have. We'll see if they match.

[wickerwoman]

101. That's what I thought.

Why don't you go teach for a few years and then come back and try to peddle "if the student doesn't learn, the teacher didn't try hard enough"? And of course not one of your students ever will be able to elude your obvious dedication and skill even if you have to track them across the continent and into the worst drug-addled, child raping, gangbanger hell imaginable. You will conquer autism, dyslexia, ADHD, PTSD, fetal alcohol syndrome and meth addiction on the strength of your personality alone and you'll do it for 200 kids a day and $40,000 a year. You'll shake off the bruises and laugh at the stab wounds inflicted by your cheeky sociopathic charges who turn around and sue you for physically restraining them when they attack other students with chairs. Parents will flock to support you, turning their own kids over to you for discipline when they cheat and buy papers online and they'll always, always give you the benefit of the doubt when their kid accuses you of sexually abusing him because you flunked him. School bureaucracies will throw rose petals at your feet and your principal will encourage you to throw the curriculum out the window so that you can create one which is more appealing and relevant to your students. All this can be yours. All you have to do is try hard enough.

[mike_c]

121. you do not have the slightest clue, my friend....

Have you EVER taught in a classroom? I suspect not, and if you have, you probably hated it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. You have the freedom in your college classes...

because your students are not under legal obligation to be there, nor do they have a legal right to compel you to teach them.

Schools are obliged to give students the education to which they are legally entitled. Teachers don't have the flexibility you have because they don't have the ultimate authority. They can't pick and choose who gets their services.

[mike_c]

27. that's an excellent point...

...but I don't think it changes my conviction that teachers who don't have authority to determine what to teach or how to teach it-- for whatever reason (and you've cited a good one)-- should be held responsible for the system's failure. There should be no responsibility without authority.

Two other points. As others have mentioned in this thread, students and parents have a great deal of responsibility too, and they also have authority in the realms where they have responsibility. The ultimate responsibility for learning belongs to students-- teachers cannot force them to learn, or open their heads and pour knowledge in-- and some students simply don't want to do it. Some parents don't support their learning.

Also pointed out down thread is the excellent point that public school by and large reflects the public priorities-- if people REALLY wanted better schools we'd find ways to improve education and we wouldn't need federal government mandates to accomplish it. Mediocrity in public schools is largely mandated by the public who prefers not to pay for excellence and who cannot even agree on basic standards of scholarship.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Your response suggests that primary school teachers are powerless.

Certainly they are constrained by administrators, laws and chance.

I would not agree that teachers are powerless to affect students knowledge and interest in learning for good or for ill.

I'm of two minds about merit pay. On the one hand, I think it might encourage some teachers to improve. On the other, I think it's more likely to provide incentive for teachers to cherry pick their students, and the gains made by disability advocates would be gone forever.

[mike_c]

42. not entirely powerless, perhaps...

...but not very powerful at all. Most K-12 classroom teachers have minimal authority to determine curriculum, choose their teaching methods, or set learning outcomes. That's not very powerful. I mean, I have control over all of those things in my classrooms, at least to a great degree, and teaching is still a struggle. But without any authority over the actual pedagogy? I think whomever does have that authority should accept most of the responsibility for learning outcomes. In most cases, that's parents (via voting and other influence), local politicians, state and federal bureaucrats, and school administrators.

[XemaSab]

31. If your students get mouthy

you can make them spend a whole lab dissecting genitalia. :P

[mike_c]

32. did you have a bad experience you'd like to share with the group...?

:rofl:

ZOOL 110?

[XemaSab]

38. ZOOL 110

Is the number one reason I switched majors.

Maybe you're all stoked on memorizing the circulatory system of a shark, but I personally don't care. :hide:

And I don't care about bryophytes either. :hide::hide:

[biopowertoday]

4. so you are holding them accountable based on test scores.

To you a kid is nothing more than a test score.

[Joe Fields]

17. No, to me, a kid deserves more than just a teacher who punches

a time clock.

[readmoreoften]

18. I'm sorry, but I don't know any teachers who think of it as "punching a time clock"

Just like firefighters who "punch a time clock."

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. I know both.

I like to think they are the exception and not the rule.

[Joe Fields]

67. I definitely agree that they are the exception and not the rule.

But even that little admission is a mountain that cannot be climbed here on this discussion board. It's ludicrous for anyone here to assert that teachers don't bear any responsibility, but I'm getting a shitwagon full of those types of responses.

[Joe Fields]

91. I've known a lot, and had the misfortune of trying to learn, in spite of them.

[Davis_X_Machina]

5. They're *public* schools.

That's the secret.

Public schools are not imposed by some outside agency.
They're the schools the public wants. They're the result of a series of choices, all of which could be made differently and aren't.

If we wanted better schools, we'd already have better schools. We don't actually want them, or we'd have them.

There's a constituency for mediocrity, one large enough to drive policy. There are things we as a nation would rather have than an excellent system of public education. We'd rather have our freedom, or our money, or our illusions, or our memories, or our prejudices, or our theories, or something handy to bitch about.

We have a military second to none, don't we? We want it, we pay for it, we get it.

Delivering every child to the schoolhouse door ready to learn?
Having every child grow up in a house, a neighborhood, a country, that valued education -- not worker training, not propaganda, not babysitting, education. And being willing to pay for it all??

Just like health care. We have the system we want, and don't want to admit it.

[sense]

53. I don't think it's the "public"

I think it's the ruling class.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[tonysam]

64. How Many Times Do I Have to Say Schools Aren't Businesses and Can't Be Run on Business Models?

I can't believe people here fall sucker for the Business Roundtable nonsense.

[AngryAmish]

6. It is not going to get better until we get better material to make teachers

Many teachers are too dim to do their jobs correctly. It is difficult and challenging to teach children. We can't expect better results from limited material.

[redqueen]

7. I put most of the blame on parents and the students themselves.

IMO we shouldn't punish teachers because parents don't do their jobs, or students refuse to do theirs.

Teachers are guides, not miracle workers.

[Joe Fields]

19. save it.

Teachers know going into their profession that they will have to deal with parents and hard to teach students. But then, it's much easier to blame than to inspire.

[redqueen]

21. Knowing they'll have to deal with it does not mean they can magically fix it.

If parents won't get involved and students refuse to do, what do you expect them to do? Bribe them? Put a gun to their head?

:wtf:

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. I'm not sure even that would work on some kids. :^(

[redqueen]

61. Yeah...

But I have to wonder some might respond better to some other kind of education... something more hands-on, that could get them a job and give them a sense of pride and accomplishment.

[GreenPartyVoter]

66. I think in a lot of cases that might help.

[Joe Fields]

72. I'm sick of all the piss poor excuses I'm hearing. And that's ALL I'm hearing.

:wtf: :argh: :nopity: :puke: :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

114. go sit in some classrooms. you're allowed, you know. you can even volunteer.

i'm sure you'll be able to tell the instructors how to do it better.

[tooko13]

77. yeah

Yes...blaming...just like you are doing.

[Joe Fields]

92. Damned right I'm blaming. Teachers deserve a lot of the blame.

They're the ones in the classroom dumbing down the kids.

[zomgidiftl]

135. Guess you haven't heard:

Teachers don't choose curriculum anymore, if they ever did.:crazy:

[sense]

54. of course you do

So much easier and than thinking or researching.

[Orlandodem]

9. Let's stop educating EVERY student and start educating the students

who want to be there. Get rid of the dead wood and our rankings and test scores rise. Most of the rest of the world does this. America should too.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. That's brilliant.

Like a spending freeze will help the economy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. Cool! Can I pick which children get society's benefits?

That way I can make sure they all are aimless and hopeless in your neighborhood.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. We should at least stop comparing our kids to kids in other countries

because this practice is so common in other countries.

[sense]

55. Yes, let's not look at the evidence, then it won't be real.

And we can be right!

Rah! Rah! USA! USA!

[Hannah Bell]

115. i don't think you've looked at the "evidence" very hard, or you'd know it's

a bit dubious.

different comparison groups, for starters. japanese data omits their voc track.

[Joe Fields]

73. Why? They all have to compete on the world stage as adults.

You just don't like to be judged by any standard.

:wtf:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Huh?

"Are we STILL to take the position that teachers aren't to blame for some of this? "


As long as their are polo teams in public schools in rich neighborhoods, and they can't afford textbooks in poor neighborhoods, yes.

[PufPuf23]

13. School administrators and other policy setters are more

responsible for the status quo than teachers IMO.

The results and forms of our public educational system are the product of demographics and social ills as well.

Most "solutions" such as charter schools, home schooling, vouchers, standardized testing, merit pay vs earned tenure, etc. are counter-productive to and undermining of a healthy, fair, and vibrant public school system.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. How about fines for bad parenting.

A child's parents are ultimately responsible for their education, so look to them.

What's the matter, don't believe in personal responsibility?

[Belial]

30. AMEN... (can I say that here?)

[GreenPartyVoter]

48. Seconded

[sense]

56. straw man

Back to "let's blame the parents"!

[Joe Fields]

74. how about fining people who get divorced? Or pick bad friends?

:rofl:

[ColbertWatcher]

43. Just out of curiosity OP, how well did you do in math when you were in school?

Specifically statistics?

[hfojvt]

44. not much there for performance stats

24th out of 29 in math. Yawn. So what? I am not convinced that more math is gonna be useful for the average american kid. It hasn't done me a bit of good to have a BA in the field.

Second, you are gonna blame teachers for students dropping out? Or for students not finishing college? That would only be true if it was shown that the reason kids didn't finish college was because they did not learn enough in High School to allow them to succeed in college, and a mere graduation ranking does not show that.

The expenditure side stats are interesting though.

[Joe Fields]

95. WOW. How can I argue with that logic?

[EFerrari]

45. Why the need to place blame? That's about the last way to improve

a situation like this. :shrug:

[Sancho]

49. Do your statistics include diversity?

The challenge in the US is the wide variety of situations that few other countries experience and poor conditions.

Education in the US is a state function; if you counted every "state" as a country, some would be at the world top of the list, and others below the average by a large margin.

The $11,000 average is misleading. There are large differences in support from state to state, district to district, and school to school: as low as $6,000 and over $20,000 per student.

MANY studies have demonstrated there is a small correlation between investment and success: how many $'s get to the kids instruction? In many districts, the dollars provided aren't used in the classroom.

Teachers today are better educated than ever in history, but less than half who are certified are still teaching in 5 years: conditions are too rough. Most teachers do BETTER in other careers when they leave teaching in terms of salary and rehire statistics.

By far, teachers are the lowest paid college graduates and advanced degree graduates in career salaries.

Go to your local school board and say in business like voice, "I'll guarantee that every student that I teach who passes the state test earns me $______ ; I'm the best and deserve the money!" (I've done this). They think you're crazy!

My wife has 5 degrees (4 not in education), 32 years experience teaching, and is certified in at least three areas (by testing) in three states. She is a very popular teacher and is an NCLB "A" school. She has taught kindergarten through college. How much should she make? That's the equivalent of any MD. She performs and proves it to parents who constantly want their kids in her classes. The district "offered" merit pay here! She got about $800! It's a joke. In the "real world"; you're talking about two or three times a "$50,000" salary! Beginning undergraduates in my classes graduate and make more at 23 years old with no judgement or experience. Merit pay is a farce. Either you pay what is deserved, or you hope that dedicated people are willing to teach, preach, and save the world....hmmmm....would Obama make more with his degree and sharp mind as President or a NY lawyer! Thank God that some don't just go for the bucks!

Blaming the teachers is very naive! Sorry, I've been there, done that, and have the t-shirt.

[Saboburns]

50. I'm a 20 year public school teaching vet

US public schools are little about critical thinking, or even education really.

As I see it, we teach people to stand in line quietly.

To look like everybody else.

To speak like everybody else.

To think like everybody else.

And to be good Multiple Choice test takers.

But mostly we teach people to obey authority.

And we do a WONDERFUL job of it.

[sense]

100. Yes!

A teacher willing to tell the truth! I love it!

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[Hannah Bell]

116. "And we do a WONDERFUL job of it" incarceration rates say otherwise.

[Saboburns]

132. well...

Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is that numbers of people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war, and millions have been killed because of this obedience. Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand thieves are running and robbing the country. That's our problem."

Howard Zinn, from 'Failure to Quit'

[Threedifferentones]

52. This study also does not take in to account the distribution of our investment

How many of those dollars are spent on which kids? America is fricking huge, and not very fair, which is why our numbers are so crappy

[noamnety]

81. I remember reading at one point

that Texas spent as much on one kid in one year in the "nice" areas as they do on one kid in the poverty stricken areas over the entire course of their K-12 education. The public funds were spent in a 13:1 ratio. Unbelievable. I hope they've enacted legislation to fix that - but somehow I doubt it.

In Michigan I thought they had fixed that, but somehow townships still get around it by assessing millages, with the result being that some districts spend 12-14,000 per student and others are more like 7,000. I don't have the exact numbers but it's close to a 2:1 ratio, which is outrageous - yet next to Texas seems almost equitable.

[hellbound-liberal]

57. Sorry, Joe. I don't see anything in the OP that supports your argument

And, as a teacher, I agree that we bear SOME of the responsibility for the education of our students. Teachers can and do make a difference in the lives of many of their students. However, there are many variables that are beyond our control and I don't consider it making excuses to acknowledge them. I don't care to spend the evening listing the multitude of challenges that I have seen my students facing on a daily basis, however, I can tell you from personal experience, that some of our kids are lucky just to get to school let alone be able to focus on what we are trying to teach.

[ulysses]

59. hellbound-liberal speaks my mind. n/t

[hellbound-liberal]

62. If I'm not mistaken, you teach students with learning disabilities too.

I'm sure you must also have some students in your classes who, for whatever reason, cannot grasp the concepts you are trying to get across to them. My problem with NCLB is that it is philosophically opposed to IDEA. As the population gets more diverse and as students with a wider range of challenges are included in regular education classrooms, the standards by which they and their teachers are being judged become more strict. IDEA calls for a free, APPROPRIATE public education for students with disabilities. Forcing them to meet the same standards as their non-disabled peers is not "appropriate" to their abilities or their needs. I hope Obama and Arne Duncan plan to address this conflict as they make their plans to overhaul public education.

[ulysses]

65. I do.

Interrelated, actually, but most of mine are LD. And I'm in agreement with everything you have written here.

[Joe Fields]

75. That doesn't surprise me. You don't seem too results oriented.

We spend more money on education, fall near the bottom of the pack of the rest of the industrialized world, plus have a 30 percent dropout rate, and you sit there and see no correlation? Teachers, in your mind play absolutely no part in that? If you can't even be the least bit honest, then no further discussion is warranted.

[hellbound-liberal]

120. That's a cheap shot , Joe. I expected better from you. Did you even read my post?

Here's how it began: "And, as a teacher, I agree that we bear SOME of the responsibility for the education of our students. Teachers can and do make a difference in the lives of many of their students." I don't know how you can interpret that as "Teachers, in your mind play absolutely no part in that?" I am insulted by your statement that it doesn't surprise you that I teach children with learning disabilities because I don't seem too results oriented. You obviously don't know anything about me or the field of Special Education. Tell me this, Joe, how often are Special Ed. teachers required to provide parents with a report on their child's progress? What extra forms of assessment are we required to administer in order to ensure that our students are gaining benefit from their education? What happens if this progress does not occur? For your information, special ed. teachers spend a great deal of their time monitoring and assessing their students performance. We are EXPERTS on "results-oriented education". The fact that you don't understand that makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about.

[Deja Q]

63. How much can they do, apart from beg and plead -- and even then get berated at by "parents"?

[tooko13]

76. Whoa

One of the major problems is that while the money per student has gone up...it is being spent on NCLB requirements that cost a lot of money. The problem is that since NCLB was enacted the schools have not gotten enough money to properly implement the policy...more money yes...but it is not going to the "right" places to actually assist student is reacher greater levels of achievement.

One issue with cross cultural exam is making sure that they are truly equivalent. Also, are the same types of students taking the exam in all of the different countries...do some countries load up on the wunderkinde while others may give the exam to everyone.

Statistics don't always tell the whole picture the U.S. health care system is highly touted why then do 33 countries including Cuba and Italy have lower infant mortality rates?

Think about it what do the elite have to gain by making teachers look bad...and inching closer to privatizing education so that they can really put a wedge between the haves and have nots. Also, look at the research regarding TV watching and school achievement. Parent involvement has the highest correlation with school success. Teacher quality is correlated to student success, but not nearly has high as a number of other factors. If you look at test scores for the last 35 years or so they are pretty steady in the U.S. there are many reasons for that. Are there teachers that should not be in teaching yes of course there are people like that in every career. As a former High School teacher I encourage you to take you turn at it...it is public service. Why don't you live it for four or five years and then see what you think. The average salary for a teacher is more like $42,000.

I find it funny when people say we can't solve our education problems with more money...when have we ever tried that...unfortunately, we do it with the military we out spend everyone else by a ridiculous amount and we have one of the very best military systems. If your team wants the best player or your bank wants the best CEO what do they do? Thats right they cough up the money...thats what we need to do with teacher's salaries...cough up the money. Our children are our biggest investment and the key to the future and we are not willing to spend the money necessary to ensure their greatness.

[BamaGirl]

78. I've been reading these threads and mostly the pro-merit posters

are just wrong. I'm not a teacher. I have three kids in public school in Alabama though, so I've dealt with a lot of teachers. In a state with notoriously under-performing schools. My kids are in 7,6, and 2 grade. We've had, between all of them and all these years, two bad teachers. My girls (the oldest two) are both gifted. It's all easy for my 13yo and always has been. She's an auditory learner, no disabilities or major problems. My second daughter has dysgraphia. She got stuck with two really lousy teachers <i>for her</i>. The first told me, when she was in third grade, that K was just slow and she couldn't do anything to help her. I got her outta that class real fucking quick. The second teacher, K had in fourth grade and was much more problematic. By this time there were test scores the teacher could look at and say, why can't she get her class work done in time? I think she's just lazy. Thank god that teacher left in the middle of the year. She's not lazy or dumb. Her brain works different. She's a straight A student with the highest standardized math score in her grade in the district. (And has since they starting testing in third grade.)

The interesting thing about having kids in public school is you get exposed to other people's kids and I've noticed a trend with my girls' friends. The ones who have bad grades live in households that don't value education or books. The ones with good grades are the ones that do value education and books. There's a small group of girls mine hang out with that are always loaning out the new pop fiction (Meyers, Cast, Read, etc) to other girls who parents' won't 'waste' money on books. As the proud owner of 3k+ books I really don't get that attitude, but whatever.

Our school is going to become a magnet school next year. We're supposed to get acceptance/denial letters next week. I know my girls will get in. They have high grades, high test scores, and despite engaging in political arguments with some of their teachers, good teacher rec's. They have had some great teachers. And some mediocre teachers. And two lousy teachers. But you know what the real difference is between my girls and some of their friends? Culture. What's expected of them at home. The interesting thing is looking at the economic disparity of this big group of girls. I'm a wahm. They have lots of friends who have sahm's. Most of them are really lousy students. Some of them are great students. They have poor friends whose parents work all the time but hammer how important education is and those kids do well. Unfortunately, there are just as many who don't see the value of education.

The point of all this rambling is, it is what you make of it. Culture has a helluva lot to do with it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

79. Amen! Kids who don't care who have parents who don't care are extremely

hard to reach. But according to the OP teachers should just try harder. (As if they weren't in the first place!)

[Hannah Bell]

117. it does. i taught english 3 years in a japanese public school, & the folks

holding up their system as a model don't have clue one. if y'all like classrooms of 50 kids with some sleeping, eating their lunch behind their books, reading comics, etc., while the teacher pretends he doesn't see & drones on & on, go for it.

the kids get high scores *mostly* because of family & social pressure & juku (after-school small group school), not the education system.

though the art, music, sports & after-school clubs, i thought, were superior to my memories of my experiences.

i liked that the kids cleaned their school instead of janitors, though i can't imagine that flying here.

[noamnety]

80. regarding the "increase" in public school funding

In our district, the vast majority of our expenses go to salaries, benefits, the mortgage on the building, and energy costs.

Most of our increase in costs didn't do anything directly for the kids - it was a result of not having national health care. Our health care costs have gone up so much that we had to have meetings to decide if we should all take a pay cut to cover the increase in health insurance costs, or if the people who get health insurance through the school should have to shoulder the increase themselves. (Some of us get it through our spouses' jobs, but we are paying the increase there, too - it's not like it's "free" if it's through our spouse.)

We all know what energy costs have done. For some districts, they saw their fuel costs more than double for buses.

Regardless of all that, the problems in our national education stem from a lot of things - most of which are influences outside of school, but also some are things that are happening within the schools. Some is political, like textbooks which discourage critical thinking in favor of nationalistic tripe and an avoidance of anything remotely controversial (which is usually where critical thinking occurs). Jeb Bush's law is an example: “American history shall be viewed as factual, not as constructed, shall be viewed as knowable, teachable, and testable, and shall be defined as the creation of a new nation based largely on the universal principles stated in the Declaration of Independence.” http://www.insurgentamerican.net/analysis/construction-zones/

Laws that restrict teaching evolution or require "intelligent design" to be taught are another example.

Daily recitation of the pledge is anything but encouraging critical thinking.

Outside of the classroom, we have some churches (my ex pastor for instance) preaching that rationale thought is the work of Satan. Now I know not all churches believe that, but the fact is, there's a relationship between the influence of religion in this country as compared to most industrialized countries, the number of people here who don't believe in evolution, and the skill level our kids graduate with.

On top of that is the compartmentalization of our various subjects in destructive ways (Waldorf schools have a different philosophy on this, but we don't have the freedom, as an individual public school teacher, to implement their structure).

I could go on more, but I have to get to bed so I can attend (lord help me) a day long staff meeting tomorrow.

[last_texas_dem]

85. It's easy to claim that teachers MUST be held accountable for "classroom performance"

What none of the "merit pay" lovers on this board have managed to do is present a fair and accurate method for doing so. Most of them seem to derive more satisfaction from simply whining about how stupid teachers are, how incompetent teachers are, how teachers are never held accountable for anything, how none of their teachers ever gave them the ponies they deserved, etc.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hanse]

93. Your entire argument relies on standardized tests.

And if that wasn't ignorant enough, we're talking about standardized tests comparing the U.S. to different countries with different education systems.

So you're not only relying on bad methodology, you're comparing unlike things.

Tell you what, why don't you work an extra shift at McDonalds or Starbucks or where ever it is, take some remedial courses at community college, pull your head out, and then come back here and talk to the grown ups.

[Joe Fields]

98. What's the matter? Afraid your mediocrity will show?

[last_texas_dem]

102. You're really on a roll tonight with the personal attacks, huh?

[Eryemil]

94. The dominant American culture among the lower class glorifies ignorance

Until that is addressed, there is not much hope.

[Hanse]

99. Ah, yes. Teachers and poor people. They're the problem.

[Eryemil]

103. Unfortunately when it comes to the poor that is exactly the case

Income is the root of it though there are other factors, like having two or more parents for example.

Two parent families that earn more and can spend more time with their children and better instill them with values that are conducive to learning, not to mention actually have more spare time to check homework and such. This is crucial.
Likewise, more well off families are more likely to value education as well as be able to afford better alternatives for their children in terms of schools and programs or simply live in areas with better educational systems.

I think there is very little focus placed on education in the United States.

[Hanse]

104. So poor people are ignorant. And children of single parents.

Care to work any other minorities in there? Black people maybe? Given your avatar I would think teh gays. But then again when in Rome...

[Eryemil]

105. Just my interpretation of the statistics available

Two parents (or more) families are still optimal as well.

[Hanse]

106. "interpretation" being the key word here.

[Eryemil]

107. If you want to argue otherwise then provide your own

I've indulged your insubstantial whining enough as it is.
YOU interpret the data.

http://huebler.blogspot.com/2005/09/poverty-and-educational-attainment-in_12.html

There is an undeniable link between wealth and education. That's not debatable.
But please, give me YOUR reasons why.

[Hanse]

108. I don't have to post anything more. The argument's over.

Your original post was so classist, bigoted, ignorant and hypocritical, you've shot yourself in the foot.

[redqueen]

122. Of course.

:crazy:

[Hannah Bell]

119. oh, it's in "the lower class" that happens, eh?

i wondered where you got it.

[Quantess]

110. your statistics are incomplete

You listed total spending on education in various countries and you listed USA's teacher salaries. You did not provide teacher's salaries in Britain, Holland, France, etc.

And, you failed to realize how much money goes to Special Education as per IDEA, and also the lawsuits that result as failure to comply with IDEA.

[KitSileya]

118. I think it would be obvious.

The connection between investment in education and results can be best illustrated by dragging out another system. The US uses the most money per capita in the world on health care, yet it consistently ranks in the bottom among industrialized worlds in infant mortality, maternal deaths, other types of rankings, and nearly 1/6th of the country is without health insurance. So it's obvious that this money isn't going to give the average American better health. Why do you think it's any different in education?

It's obvious that the investment in American schools aren't going to the average students in the classrooms, but are used on other things than actually providing enough resources to help a disparate group of children to learn. The standardized testing with mandated curricula and mandated teaching methods, and curtailed classroom infrastructure, is like asking doctors to only treat pneumonia, and nothing else. In areas where people have good health because of better sewage, living conditions, nutrition et.al., it doesn't matter that they don't get treatment for malaria, malnutrition, asthma, but in areas where sewage runs int he streets, where mold grows up the walls, and they don't have proper food, it can be fatal. Deciding that doctors would only be paid according to how many of their patients passed a physical would be patently unfair. But determining that teachers should be paid according to their test results is somehow fair?

[Hannah Bell]

134. thanks for the best post in the thread.

[KitSileya]

136. I must admit I was rather proud of the analogy.

And it surprises me that some can't see the similarities. But then, I am a teacher myself, and some would say I can't be objective about the issue because of it, and that I'm only interested in blaming everyone but the teachers for the way schools are today. :sarcasm:

However, I feel that I am objective. In Norway, where I teach, we are now getting the results of decades of playing rather than learning at K-9 level - a pedagogical theory that was embraced and pushed by incompetent teachers and especially the main teacher's union. They had the idiotic notion that a teacher didn't need to know the subject which she taught because she was there to guide the student rather than teach him (they were all seduced by Henri Holec and his ilk, I'm afraid) and that any education above a bachelors was unnecessary. The most important thing was for kids to enjoy being at school.

So you see, I have no problem blaming teachers when they're at fault. In the American school system, on the other hand, teachers are pretty much blameless, and while therer may be bad apples, they are not the majority, and even if they were, merit pay wouldn't be the solution.

[Hannah Bell]

137. but wait! norway supposedly has "better scores" than the us, right?

i'd be interested in hearing more.

i taught 3 years in a public school in japan, & the "better scores" thing we read in the us didn't capture the complexities of the similarities & differences - so i take those comparisons with huge doses of salt.

[mudesi]

124. I'm Looking And Looking In Your OP For ANYTHING That Correlates Performance To Teachers.....

Can't find it anywhere.

You wrote the word "CONCLUSION", but apparently you don't know what that means. I think you need to go back to school.

[crimsonblue]

126. It's the teachers. n/t

[EFerrari]

128. Yeah, it's the workers that fork over their own money to supply

their classrooms and work unpaid hours and deal with being blamed by the ignorant that are the problem. Natch.

[crimsonblue]

129. where the heck did you go to school?

the teachers at my school didn't supply much because the district supplied everything we needed. Plus, things like buying classroom supplies is tax deductible. Finally, honestly, how much can scissors and glue cost? I don't see how teachers spend more than a couple hundred of bucks a term on supplies. When you're making $60,000, $200 ain't shit.

[EFerrari]

130. You sure have a lot of excuses at your disposal. That $200 "ain't shit"

because it isn't yours, right?

This is why we lose half of new teachers in the first five years. Because people like you rationalize away their contribution. Who wants to put up with THAT for a whole career.

[crimsonblue]

131. Yes, it's the supplies that do in teachers...

it couldn't be the fact that all children are little shits and are not the perfect angels aspiring teachers imagine them to be....