vouchers. someone explain to me how a "private" school

[ulysses]

that accepts public funding, yet has to submit to no accountability, doesn't amount to a public school with no accountability.

[Belial]

1. huh? Are you talking about Charter Schools or Private Schools in

general?

[ulysses]

2. private schools.

Are charters considered private?

[bicentennial_baby]

3. Neither of the private schools I went to had public funding

:shrug:

[ulysses]

5. right. it's what they're pushing now. n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

10. Ah, I see

I don't agree with that, at all.

I'm also not a fan of charters or vouchers.

Private school was right for me. Public school was right for my brother. I think parents should do what they think is in the best interests of the child, if possible.

Fwiw, I went to private schools from grade 3 through 12, on MASSIVE financial aid. My parents were not wealthy.

:hi:

[AlCzervik]

26. the one my daughter goes to also gets no public funding, fine by me, i chose

private education and i sure as hell don't expect the tax payers to pick up the tab.

[Uzybone]

4. Vouchers are for payments, not funding

You may be confusing the two.

[redqueen]

6. Vouchers aren't a form of funding?

[Uzybone]

9. I guess if you want to be technical, it is funding

because the kids use public funds to pay for tuition. But I don't think we should expect any private institution that collects payments from government funds (i.e tax rebates, social security payment) to be open to government scrutiny.

And no, I do not like vouchers, I think they leech public schools.

[redqueen]

12. Of course it's funding... no technial required.

It makes hardly any difference at all if the money goes directly from the gov't to the schools or whether it passes through the student's / parents' hands first.

Are you calling accountability "scrutiny"?

[paulsby]

33. it makes all the difference

that the money goes to the parents FIRST.

because they are the locus of control, as to which school gets the money.

there is no govt. preference for one school (religious etc.) over another.

it is no more FUNDING of a private school, than the govt. giving food stamps to a person is funding a grocery store.

in both cases, again, the locus of control, as to where the money goes - is the recipient of the money - the parent or food stamp recipient NOT the school or grocery store.

[redqueen]

The other poster was talking about vouchers vs. funding,

as if they were different types of money.

It's all government money.

You're talking about something else altogether.

[paulsby]

35. well, never mind then, cheddar :) nt

[redqueen]

40. Cheddar?

:P

That makes no sense, so it made me laugh. :)

[paulsby]

43. old saturday night live routine

from wikipedia

Radner (as Litella) peered through her reading glasses and, in the character's trademark high-pitched warbly voice, read a prepared editorial addressing some public issue, becoming increasingly agitated as her statement progressed — only to discover in the middle of her commentary that she had misheard what the issue really was. A typical example:

"What is all this fuss I hear about the Supreme Court decision on a "deaf" penalty? It's terrible! Deaf people have enough problems as it is!"
When the news anchor interrupted to point out her error (eg. "that's death, Ms. Litella, not deaf"), she would crinkle her nose, usually saying, "Oh, that's very different...", and then meekly turn to the audience, saying, "Never mind." When Litella played against news anchor Chevy Chase (whom she referred to as "Cheddar Cheese"), he was somewhat sympathetic to her; but when Jane Curtin took over the anchor role she would scold Ms. Litella on the air, to which Litella would reply, "I'm sorry. It won't happen again.... bitch!".

[redqueen]

45. Heh, I had forgotten all about the way she called him Cheddar.

Thanks for the reminder. :)

[Uzybone]

36. No, Paulsby got my point exactly

and said it more eloquently than I did.

[paulsby]

44. i try. cheers nt

[ulysses]

7. mind explaining the difference?

[Riley18]

8. Vouchers come from taxpayer dollars and are what the students use as

tuition for private schools. If people want to go to private schools, they should pay for it with their own money. Vouchers take money from public schools. When the student doesn't stay in the private school, and reenters public school the funding dollars stay with the private school.

[lib_wit_it]

11. ! Vouchers are just another way of giving easy money to those who share Bush's

desire to kill off public education.

[burythehatchet]

13. Is Arne pushing vouchers?

[ulysses]

14. not that I've heard yet.

The topic was broached again elsewhere, though.

:hi:

[burythehatchet]

15. thank goodness...so far

Hope you're well, my friend. We need to meet-up soon, its been too long.

:toast:

[ulysses]

16. indeed we do.

I have a most blessed spring break coming up in a few weeks...

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Give him time

[Fleshdancer]

17. It's a ridiculous loophole

I've wondered this myself. I would also like to know the percentage of tuition the vouchers would actually cover because, in most cases, I don't believe the vouchers will be high enough to cover the full cost. Is the money returned if a child is kicked out? If not, then why and if yes, then who gets it?

[ulysses]

18. excellent questions.

From what I've seen, vouchers won't even pay half the tuition to schools one would even consider.

[KamaAina]

48. Indeed. Next up: a whole new group of "voucher schools"

that charge exactly the amount of the voucher, er, "opportunity scholarship" :puke: -- and would be to private schools like President Obama's alma mater Punahou as Wal-Mart is to Macy's. :eyes: Probably corporate-owned like Sprawl-Mart, too.

[Riley18]

19. The money stays with the private school and the kid goes back to public school.

[EFerrari]

20. I admit that I'm completely confused about what the different

terms for schools mean any more. At some point I understood about vouchers and charter schools but that was a long time ago. :blush:

[madrchsod]

22. vouchers to private schools is a union busting tactic used in chicago

i should say magnet/charter schools. vouchers have the same effect.

[paulsby]

23. private schools have an ultimate accountability

in that they need to attract students and retain them. even with vouchers (which pay only part of the cost), they have to offer significant perceived benefits to the purchaser in order to survive.

[ulysses]

25. separation from the masses alone is a perceived benefit.

Admission to a "select" school alone is a perceived benefit.

[paulsby]

27. to some

absolutely.

the point is that they sink or swim based on a marketplace.

[ulysses]

28. on what is the market based?

And if they receive public funds, what happens to the market?

[paulsby]

29. the market is based on consumers,

just like other markets.

in this case, the consumers are those who purchase education for their children.

the public funds, since they only defray part of the cost do not eliminate the market.

any more than food stamps eliminate food markets.

the consumer stil has choice as to what school he chooses with his voucher money

[ulysses]

32. how freely does a voucher recipient get to participate in that market?

What doors does a voucher for, say, $5k open for a kid from public housing?

And not to belabor the point in the OP, but why doesn't public money going to private schools come with public oversight?

[paulsby]

34. because you are misunderstanding the locus of control

the money goes to the parents FOR EDUCATION.

they choose what school (religious, secular, whatever) gets the money and THEY receive the product - their kids education.

the issue is what the money is for - the education of a student, and who gets to decide - the parent.

much like if a person gets food stamps, THEY decide which market to go to, and what foods (of those that are food stamps applicable) to buy.

[Critters2]

30. Perceived benefits...like segregation. nt

[paulsby]

37. sure

in the same sense that choosing to live in a neighborhood on the west side "segregates" you, vs. the east side.

if you choose a catholic school, quaker school, montessori school, whatever, it's the PARENT's choice.

they decide what educational choice is best for their child.

it increases parental choice.

choice: it's what's for dinner

[Critters2]

41. It's actually private schools who do the choosing.

They can choose not to accept a student. Public schools have no such choice. Public schools then become the repository for the kids your private schools don't want...or don't want around the acceptable kids.

[paulsby]

42. not really

heck, some public schools require applications, test scores, etc. my brother's high school did.

but yes, private schools can have entry criteria. the more in a given area, the more diverse the market.

but private schools can COMPETE for kids, just like kids can compete to get into private schools. some private schools can specialize in "problem kids" that some other private schools don't.

again, it creates a much more competitive marketplace.

it aint perfect.

[Critters2]

46. Bullshit. I work with public school teachers who complain

all the time about kids from the private schools who transfer in in the middle of the year after getting their ass kicked out of a private school. Now, the public school teachers have to deal with the kid's behavioral shit that the private schools couldn't handle AND with his/her adjustment to a new school. Happens all the time.

[misanthrope]

31. In this town...

...private schools will never have a hard go of it because of the traditional stigma attached to public schooling. Perceived social status is more powerful in the Deep South than those from beyond the region can ever imagine.

[paulsby]

39. that's fine

then it is up to the public schools to overcome that stigma.

i am for increasing parental choice, and individual choice in general. that holds with drug use (against the war on drugs), reproductive rights, marriage rights, and educational rights.

it's all about empowering individuals vs. the state as to who makes the decisions about their personal lives, and that of their children.

[misanthrope]

47. They can't overcome it...

...because it's not fueled by empirical data but by personal prejudice and social cachet.

[sohndrsmith]

24. they're freelancing...? n/t

[aikoaiko]

38. because you can switch to a different school if they screw up (unlike public schools)

and thats how you can hold schools accountable.