Vatican sides with Brazilian bishop against mother and doctors and of raped 9-year-old

[BurtWorm]

Holy shit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7930380.stm

Vatican backs abortion row bishop



Cardinal Re said the attack on Brazil's Catholic Church was unjustified

A senior Vatican cleric has defended the excommunication in Brazil of the mother and doctors of a young girl who had an abortion with their help.

The nine-year-old had conceived twins after alleged abuse by her stepfather.

Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re told Italian paper La Stampa that the twins "had the right to live" and attacks on Brazil's Catholic Church were unfair.

It comes a day after Brazil's president criticised the Brazilian archbishop who excommunicated the people involved.

Brazil only permits abortions in cases of rape or health risks to the mother.

Doctors said the girl's case met both these conditions, but the Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho said the law of God was above any human law.

He said the excommunication would apply to the child's mother and the doctors, but not to the girl because of her age.

[Blue_Tires]

1. of course no excommunication for the kiddie incest rapist

but let's be honest: the church higher-ups get turned on by these kind of stories...

[kanrok]

7. Actually, those who commit rape

are automatically excommunicated.

I suppose it would help if you understood what excommunication is. It's an ominous-sounding word, frequently misunderstood, even by practicing Catholics.

Once a person is "excommunicated" they are no longer able to enjoy the benefits of their faith (partaking in sacraments like being married in the church, etc).

But an excommunication is always "fixed" by absolution.

Excommunication is a "medicinal" penalty. It is intended for the correction of the sinner. Once the excommunicant is absolved, he or she is then able to re-join the faith in its entirety.

You may disagree with the Bishop's decision, but it is in conformance with Canon Law.

For those interested, here is a link to a detailed description of all things "excommunication":

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

[Blue_Tires]

10. ok...thanks for the clarification..

[kanrok]

11. My pleasure

Have a great weekend.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. No, it's not automatic, and he hasn't been excommunicated yet

Church excommunicates mother of 9-year-old rape victim – but not accused rapist
...
The controversy represents a PR nightmare for the Vatican. The unnamed girl's mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday's emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody. Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious".

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/church-excommunicates-mother-of-9yearold-rape-victim-ndash-but-not-accused-rapist-14218389.html

[kanrok]

13. I respectfully disagree with the Archbishop

The heinous crime confers excommunication automatically.

See here:


A jure and ab homine

Excommunication is either a jure (by law) or ab homine (by judicial act of man, i.e. by a judge). The first is provided by the law itself, which declares that whosoever shall have been guilty of a definite crime will incur the penalty of excommunication. The second is inflicted by an ecclesiastical prelate, either when he issues a serious order under pain of excommunication or imposes this penalty by judicial sentence and after a criminal trial.

Latæ and Ferendæ Sententiæ

Excommunication, especially a jure, is either latæ or ferendæ sententiæ. The first is incurred as soon as the offence is committed and by reason of the offence itself (eo ipso) without intervention of any ecclesiastical judge; it is recognized in the terms used by the legislator, for instance: "the culprit will be excommunicated at once, by the fact itself ". The second is indeed foreseen by the law as a penalty, but is inflicted on the culprit only by a judicial sentence; in other words, the delinquent is rather threatened than visited with the penalty, and incurs it only when the judge has summoned him before his tribunal, declared him guilty, and punished him according to the terms of the law. It is recognized when the law contains these or similar words: "under pain of excommunication"; "the culprit will be excommunicated".

Public and occult

Excommunication ferendæ sententiæ can be public only, as it must be the object of a declaratory sentence pronounced by a judge; but excommunication latæ sententiæ may be either public or occult. It is public through the publicity of the law when it is imposed and published by ecclesiastical authority; it is public through notoriety of fact when the offence that has incurred it is known to the majority in the locality, as in the case of those who have publicly done violence to clerics, or of the purchasers of church property. On the contrary, excommunication is occult when the offence entailing it is known to no one or almost no one. The first is valid in the forum externum and consequently in the forum internum; the second is valid in the forum internum only. The practical difference is very important. He who has incurred occult excommunication should treat himself as excommunicated and be absolved as soon as possible, submitting to whatever conditions will be imposed upon him, but this only in the tribunal of conscience; he is not obliged to denounce himself to a judge nor to abstain from external acts connected with the exercise of jurisdiction, and he may ask absolution without making himself known either in confession or to the Sacred Penitentiaria. According to the teaching of Benedict XIV (De synodo, X, i, 5), "a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the forum externum, since in this tribunal no one is presumed to be excommunicated unless convicted of a crime that entails such a penalty". Public excommunication, on the other hand, is removed only by a public absolution; when it is question of simple publicity of fact (see above), the absolution, while not judicial, is nevertheless public, inasmuch as it is given to a known person and appears as an act of the forum externum.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. But that doesn't list the offences

The reference you gave doesn't list even murder, or assaults, of anyone apart from clerics. It does, however, list abortion.

[kanrok]

18. The essence of mortal sin is excommunication

As the reference indicates, there are different types of excommunication.

When one commits a mortal sin, he or she has removed him or herself from a state of grace.

He or she is effectively "excommunicated" once the act is complete.

It does not require a pronouncement by a bishop or a priest, it just is.

The type of excommunication that occurred in this case was public in nature.

Those require a public pronouncement.

Raping a child or killing another without justification are serious enough to cause immediate excommunication.

You must also bear in mind that excommunication is not the equivalent of the death penalty.

It is reversible by absolution.

That is what I learned, and that is what believe.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. You may believe it, but the archbishop doesn't

and the Vatican has backed him. I think your own revulsion for what the man did is admirable and correct; but the Catholic church has its own rules about excommunication, and rape or murder does not mean automatic excommunication - unless the victim is a senior Catholic cleric.

I've followed the canon laws through on this, to try to follow the reasoning of the archbishop: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3772798&mesg_id=3774479

[kanrok]

20. You spent a lot of time reading about this issue

I'm glad you took the time to understand.

And I don't disagree with your analysis, except on a minor point.

I go back to the practical effect of excommunication.

You get to the same place with either a private or public type.

No matter how you characterize it, murder, rape, and other types of mortal sin put you in exactly the same place as you would be if the Bishop publicly proclaimed excommunication.

The moment you commit the sin, you are excommunicated. You no longer are in "communion" with the Church.

For instance, you have lost the ability to effectively receive most sacraments.

You can still physically walk up and receive Communion, but you would be compounding the initial sin because you took Communion knowing that you committed a mortal sin.

All of this, of course, can be expiated by an effective confession.

Good job, Muriel!

[Skittles]

28. the rapist has NOT been excommunicated

[EmilyAnne]

31. So here we see that canon law is not fit for the modern world. The entire system is exposed as one

that should have no relevance today.

As modern, compassionate, thinking people we have mostly come to some very basic conclusions. It is is a bad thing for a 9 year old to be raped. It is a bad thing for the 9 year old to be forced to carry the child conceived in rape, especially when doctors have said that her uterus is too small to do so. Modern medicine now allows for a safe remedy to the situation: abortion. It would be unconscionable to publicly humiliate the 9 year old or her family who sought the abortion. In my opinion, any faith system that is on opposition to the basic humanitarian realizations of modern, compassionate, thinking people is one that needs to change or die.

[EmilyAnne]

32. And without these sacraments, isn't a person denied access to heaven?

To absolve the excommunication, would these people have to confess to the sinfulness of their actions and ask for forgiveness? Why would they do something like that? It would be a lie. They would most certainly do it again and most certainly do not regret their decision. I'm so glad they get to see the truth about this church and its vision for the family, the treatment of women and the treatment of children. Ex-Catholics they will surely remain.

[TwilightGardener]

2. As a Catholic, this just makes me sad--how the hell is a nine-year-old

supposed to carry and bear twins that are a result of rape/incest? How many layers of victimization can this little girl go through? Sick.

edit to add: if I were the girl's mother/doctor, I'd take the excommunication with a giant shrug.

[moggie]

22. If the church is going to change, the change has to come from Catholics

So I hope the very many ordinary Catholics who have expressed displeasure with the church's actions in this case are following through with that, and not just meekly carrying on as before.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. Yup, I'd be finding a more child-friendly place to worship

Suffer the little children and all that.

Too many men, without concerns for families and women, for too long. This is yet another reason that for its own health, the RCC ought to be ordaining women and married men. The hierarchy suffers from fatal tunnel-vision.

[David__77]

3. This kind of thing really is politically helpful.

This is the most basic expression of the "pro-life" movement and its so-called "culture of life."

[redqueen]

4. Very much so. (nt)

[azmouse]

5. There are plenty of other Christian churches that will welcome this mother and child.

[LiberalFighter]

6. It would be a pity if someone yanked all his teeth out.

[kanrok]

8. Would you pull out a Tiger's teeth for acting like a tiger?

Like it or not, agree with it or not, the Bishop was acting in accordance with Canon Law.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

16. I'm sorry, but that's bullshit

To defend the RCC you have to come up with these fantastical contortions. "Oh, he was just following canonical law." BULLSHIT! If I was a member of a group that considered the rape and torture of a child to be more okay than abortion, that group would no longer have the pleasure of my membership, money, support, or intellectual defense. How about you?

I can see that you're defending your faith, a faith that may mean a lot to you, but apologists such as yourself are a large part of the problem. When mainstream church members take the attitude that this asshole didn't have a choice, then the church is never forced to change or improve. In the long run, that may be a good thing because it just reinforces the notion that the RCC in particular, and religion in general, is ridiculously out of touch with the modern standard of human rights.

[kanrok]

17. Nobody is asking you to agree

The "modern" standard of human rights is in no way affected by the Church's decision to excommunicate a member of the Church.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

25. On the flipside

Based on this decision, the church doesn't give a shit about modern standards of human rights.

Keep enabling...

[kanrok]

26. Actually the church just makes these pronouncements

just to piss off atheists.

It's our little secret.

It works every time.

BTW, it appears that the Catholic Church is not excommunicating the mother or the doctor.

Read here:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/03/14/1245a40abd9e

What's your position now?

Never mind...I already know.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

27. My position sure as hell isn't going to change because of a PR move

The church threw a molested child, her mother, and the doctors under the bus, then after some bad press causes the church to act the way they should have in the first place, I'm supposed to change my opinion?

Trying to score a point against atheists at the expense of a 9 year old rape victim? Priceless...

[kanrok]

30. Gee, there's a shock.

n/t

[EvolveOrConvolve]

36. Keep digging that hole...

[kanrok]

37. IMHO, it's only a hole to you.

Keep up the good work.

Changing minds one Catholic at a time.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. That's good to see

I'd like to see Sobrinho's reaction to that.

[WhollyHeretic]

23. Doesn't mean he is any less of a vile creature. Any decent human being would not uphold that law

or defend those that did. Can you imagine what this little girl went through? And afterward she has this piece of shit telling her that her parents are going to hell and the church backed him up. Do you think a nine year old could carry twins to term?

[AngryOldDem]

41. Let's say that she does.

Most likely, she'll be rendered infertile, if she even survives the delivery. Then, when she grows up and wants to marry, she'll play hell having her marriage recognized by the Church because she can't have kids. Further, if she tries to have them through artificial means, that's also a sin.

So you tell me how compassionate and loving the Church is.

Laws -- especially those of the "canonical" variety -- have to be applied with common sense. And in this case, a little dose of God's grace, love, and mercy wouldn't hurt, either.

WWJD, indeed.

[Mollis]

9. They didn't excommunicate the girl...

but I doubt she would want to be in it anymore, anyway.
Like someone said already, I hope the mother and doctor took the excommunication and said, "Oh, well."

[moggie]

21. One of the doctors has done better than that

He's grateful for the excommunication:

Dr. Olimpio Moraes, one of the doctors involved in the procedure, said he thanked the archbishop for his excommunication because the controversy sheds light on Brazil's restrictive abortion laws. He said women in Brazil's countryside are victimized by Brazil's ban on abortion.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/03/11/brazil.rape.abortion/

[spanone]

14. i'm glad i left the catholic church....many years ago...

[PfcHammer]

33. The Preists and Pope are jealous that didn't get

9 year old tang. They are repulsive:
:puke:

[Generic Brad]

34. Sparing the girl excommunication - how Christian of them!

The Church just drips with compassion. :sarcasm:

[DemBones DemBones]

35. It was the Christian thing to do because

the girl had no choice in any of this, not in the rape, not in the abortion.

[Elidor]

38. I wonder how Brazil's catholics feel about being held to a different standard than US catholics

It seems that the infallible Voice of God is rather selective in administering such penalties.

[Toasterlad]

39. Fuck All Vatican Members With a Rusty Spike.

That evil fraud of a hateful religion can't die out fast enough.

[AngryOldDem]

40. Big surprise.

And I'm still waiting for any kind of words of denunciation for the monster who raped this girl.

This is what happens when there is only black and white, with no shades of gray -- "God's law." But, Cardinal, whatever happened to God's mercy, grace, and love?

The more they try to defend the indefensible, the more they discredit themselves. Which is just fine by me.