Re: the Madoff scandal; WTF is up with making comments about the victims?

[closeupready]

This guy ADMITS to a WORLD CLASS SWINDLE from THOUSANDS of people over the course of DECADES, and people here go, "oh, I know he was a crook, not saying he wasn't, but these 'victims' lol, they were morons/idiots/greedy/shame on them". And then this morning, I see a sanctimonious comment about Madoff's new home, "suffering is always sad, no matter who is suffering, cry, cry :cry: ".

Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK is wrong with some of you people? Are you really Democrats at all? Or are you just tagging along for the ride until your personal situation improves?

[AllieB]

1. Elie Wiesel, Holocaust survivor, was wiped out.

I totally agree with you. :-(

[grantcart]

5. and money from the foundations as well

[Hannah Bell]

32. his foundation - not he.

[DS1]

2. Some days people throw a "I'm more enlightened than you" contest on DU

[redqueen]

9. *Some* days?

If only.

[DS1]

12. I was being compassionate

therefore, more enlightened than you, obviously :eyes:


;)

[redqueen]

23. Well considering the fact that I'm a puritan freeptard...

DUH!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Because there were warning signs for years.

I don't know about you, but if I'm going to invest millions of dollars in somebody I'm going to do a little research.

Now if they didn't do their research, then they invested their money poorly, and I'm not particularly sympathetic to sloppy investors.

Now if they did do research, and they did suspect the guy was running a scheme, then they probably thought they were in on the scam too. Which would mean they should be facing prison too.

[closeupready]

8. Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back, Clinton should have clearly taken bin Laden

when they offered him to him. All kinds of woulda's, coulda's, shoulda's littered throughout history.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Wow.

The loony debunked freeper meme about Clinton being offered bin Laden.

Yeah, that really supports your arguments.

[closeupready]

18. I'm not on trial, and I'm not arguing before a judge.

I'm offering my opinion about the comments I've seen about the Madoff scandal over the last few weeks.

We don't agree. Fine.

[Critters2]

14. Knowing that he was chair of NASDAQ and of a reputable business school

wouldn't have seemed like research enough? This guy wasn't selling stock off the back of a truck in the K-Mart parking lot, after all. It was perfectly reasonable to think he knew what he was doing with their investments. There were knowledgable people who saw red flags (and did precious little about it, btw), but for the average investor, the Elie Wiesels of the world, who are experts in things other than Wall Street, it's not unreasonable to have trusted this criminal.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Research enough?

Holy shit, fuck no that's not enough research.

That's like saying finding out he's a Nigerian prince is a valid reason to give him your credit card number.

[marions ghost]

28. "trust"...hmmmm

or did they just know enough not to ask any questions....? In other words, like so many, they looked the other way, if they had any qualms.

Still, I think it can be argued that they are indeed fraud victims who did have every reason to "trust." But in America fraud victims don't fare well because everyone thinks they could avoid it--until it happens to them. In this case, the victims followed the leader right over the cliff.
The govt is to blame for the lack of regulation and effective controls.

This was such an amazing swindle. Brandeis University is losing their art museum and selling off their entire art collection because of Madoff. I'm sure they did not think they were taking such a risk.

[question everything]

37. I am of too minds

I like numbers, but realize that most people do not. Most people give their savings to a money mangers to handle. And someone yesterday said how she'd never heard of Maddoff. That it was their money manager who put their money there. And, of course, their periodic statements looked OK, as reported by accountants and lawyers.

On the other hand when many of them - at least, the ones interviewed by reporters - are individuals who, at the age of 50 amassed several million of dollars that they could afford to retire. And when you realize that many of us will never be able to retire, and when many seniors in their 70s and 80 are looking for any kind of work - I am ambivalent about real empathy.

[Lost in CT]

4. I agree... hindsight is twenty twenty honestly the warning signs were

for a regular investor weak to non-existant... now the SEC on the other hand should have had alarms going off.

[closeupready]

11. Yes, the SEC is clearly cupable for some of this.

n/t

[hlthe2b]

6. I think many need to believe the victims were really stupid...

so as to diminish all of our increasing sense of vulnerability.

BS, though.... anyone can be taken in by a crook when those who are tasked with regulating and exposing these crooks are asleep at the wheel or complicit. The playing field is so uneven that we are at their mercy--including those who merely trusted financial advisors with their 401Ks--hardly the big rollers in this economy.

[marions ghost]

29. Bingo

blaming the victims always makes one feel safer. Always. But it's a complete delusion.

The comparison to those who've lost money from 401-Ks is appropriate. Were these "smaller rollers" stupid to put their money in them? I don't think so.

[polichick]

7. Investors were so desperate to be a part of Madoff's special club that....

...they didn't even ask questions ~ the scam was so ridiculous that Madoff would kick people out if they dared to ask questions.

That's the truth ~ like it or not.

[closeupready]

10. Well, yeah, that's how a confidence game works, of course.

Those who have been burned before like to believe that they can smell a scam like that a mile away. I certainly feel like I would have seen it. Though again, hindsight is 20/20.

[polichick]

15. It was a nasty scam for sure, but investors played their part...

Hopefully people will think twice about desperately wanting to be part of a chosen few ~ and DO THEIR HOMEWORK.

We're all learning about doing our financial homework lately.

[Critters2]

19. You seriously think they should've suspected that a former chair of NASDAQ

was a crook? He had credentials up the yin-yang! It was the SEC's job to provide oversight. There was nothing unreasonable in investors trusting him.

[polichick]

22. NPR interviewed some of those scammed a couple of months ago...

...and they admitted there were tons of red flags ~ that they weren't allowed to ask questions of Madoff or his employees was one that bothered them. Many were even warned by their tax attorneys that the numbers didn't add up, and still they kept hoping things were okay. The show may be in the NPR archives ~ very enlightening.

(Of course, the SEC didn't do it's job either.)

[question everything]

38. Not all of them

One woman yesterday said she'd never heard of Maddoff. She, and family members put their savings in the hands of a money manager who invested their money.

[CTyankee]

40. We have to remember that many people invested with Madoff because the people they knew

and trusted did so also. So it was probably a kind of "groupthink" where you trust people you know and have known many years, people like yourselves, and everyone is "making" so much money. Looks simple now but at the time it's easy to see how this happens.

[suston96]

16. Too quick a guilty plea - too many questions unanswered......

65 billion or more disappeared and it went somewhere. Remember those movies about someone inheriting hundreds of millions if they can spend ten million in 30 days? How do you steal and get rid of 65 billion - or more so fast without anyone catching on that it was stolen?

One man going to jail doesn't answer all the questions. There are others who know....who are they?

[closeupready]

21. I completely agree about the missing money. You don't spend that

kind of money and not get noticed. From what I've read, Madoff wasn't noticed for spending like a gilded baron. He stuffed it away in Swiss bank accounts, or God knows where, but it's still out there, to a large extent. Maybe 50% or more.

[suston96]

27. I also agree that in a Ponzi scheme money goes from the right hand to the left....

....and maybe most of the cash was actually accounting transactions.

Nowadays, most people don't see their actual cash for days, weeks, even months at a time. Most transactions are done on debit cards and bank bill pay, etc.

But my God, 65 billion - and maybe much more?

That old man in that cell he is headed too will be conjoined with his secrets.

Who knew? Bernie Madoff knew. That's who.

[question everything]

39. Yes, where are the others?

Someone had to prepare the statements that went on a periodic basis to investors.

[4lbs]

20. I blame the SEC much more than I do the victims.

The SEC had a full independent investigation of Madoff that detailed his impossible to justify dealings dumped in their laps several years ago, and they didn't do anything about it.

[billyoc]

24. You can't cheat an honest man.

[NashVegas]

25. I Can Only Guess You Haven't Been Paying Attention

Madoff's investors who were new to wealth have my real sympathy. Others among his investors are known to have purposely turned a blind eye at the too-good-to-be-true returns.

[closeupready]

30. Okay, all I've seen about that is sheer, 100% speculation.

All the other things I've read and seen (Vanity Fair, 60 Minutes, CBS News) have had firsthand accounts of people who were fleeced by someone who ran a 'successful' hedge fund, but took in only those who were wealthy enough to be bothered with. Did they have suspicions? I suppose some of them did, but those are called 'suspicions' because they aren't facts, i.e., they are possibilities based upon nothing more than just simply thinking those things up. Against hindsight is 20/20 and we who were not fleeced can say, 'well, I could have spotted this scam from a mile away.'

[NashVegas]

42. Experienced Investors

Don't look for or expect 15% returns.

On May 7, 2001, Barron's ran an Erin Arvedlund article titled: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" that expressed doubts about Madoff's spectacular performance. Year in and year out, in up markets and down, he produced average annual compounded 15% returns or more for over a decade, and some of his larger multi-billion dollar-run funds never had a down year. Needless to say, he attracted investors who raved about him.

http://www.phillyimc.org/es/early-suspicions-about-bernard-madoff

You can't cheat an honest man.

[ozu]

26. Individual investors were wealthy

DUers, in general, don't believe the wealthy can be victims because in order to have gained that wealth, they had to be evil and oppress the poor.

I think that's about right.

[closeupready]

31. Who has Steve Jobs oppressed? Huh?

Or more pointedly, what about Kevin Bacon and Kyra Sedgwick - I'd like to know who THEY oppressed.

[ozu]

33. Jobs

Do you think the Chinese tech sweatshop workers who assemble his ipods and macbooks are being paid a livable wage?

Probably not. Steve Jobs is no saint.

[closeupready]

34. If you have a cite or evidence to support that claim, feel free to post it here.

Otherwise, in the absence of that, I can't say that I know either way.

[peacetalksforall]

35. It was reported that he was going to plea bargain.

Then he pled guilty and went to jail?
This means that there won't be a trial?
All those victims and we peripheral victims are not going to have answers?

Reminds me of Tim McVeigh
(Oklahoma bomber - asked for early death penalty and they gave it to him - now we 'don't know nothin').

[bkkyosemite]

36. These people were (my understanding) getting a very very high rate of return, higher than any other

venue. Wouldn't that make you suspicious. It would me. Or were they just going along with it not asking the right questions about the big differences that were obvious in their rate of returns in comparison to the market and other rates. Was is greed. Wow look what I'm making...and say nothing to not to rock the boat. Or were there those who did not understand the market but just trusted him. I think there were both.

[RB TexLa]

41. Not really. You had the former head of the NASDAQ running the thing

I'm sure the rate of return was being attributed to his knowledge of the market. I would expect someone who ran a major market to know a good bit about choosing and timing investments.

[leftofthedial]

43. they call him the greatest evil on the planet, pure evil, evil this, evil that...

it was just money. He's a capitalist. He just technically was committing "crimes," while Bear Stearns and AIG and Citicorp and B of A were technically not. They are all "evil."