Raise all teacher pay to the level of a living wage

[MrScorpio]

And the extra special teachers get a little more sumptin'-sumptin' for merit

Everyone's a winner, eh?

[earthside]

1. Where ...

Where are public school teachers not making a livable wage?

[norepubsin08]

2. Tacoma Washington

after 28 years of teaching and a 5th year of teaching she only makes $60,000.00 and out of that she has to pay taxes, insurance, retirement, teacher dues, stuff for her classroom kids and continuing education.

[sufrommich]

6. Anyone who would argue that $60,000 for a 10 month year

is an insult to teachers is going to be awfully disappointed in the lack of sympathy out there.

[ogneopasno]

7. Anyone who thinks teachers don't work 12 months out of the year is an insult to teachers.

Many of them, anyway.

[sufrommich]

8. I know a lot of teachers and have 5 teachers in my

family, none of them work 12 months out of the year.

[ogneopasno]

10. Anecdotes are like opinions, of course...the teachers I know are training, researching curricula,

redesigning their classrooms, shopping for supplies, unpacking their classrooms, moving their classrooms, purging old supplies, refreshing their own class schedules, setting up their classrooms, and so on during the "off months." Vacations and off days are in there too, but it's not like they sit on their asses and drink margaritas for two straight months. Ten months of 10- to 12-hour days can grate on you after awhile, too.

Depends on what you're trying to achieve, I guess.

[Bucky]

11. I'll bet none of them works a 40 hour week, either

I'll bet none of them are truly "off" for two months in teh summer, as well. As an 11 year teacher I have had exactly one summer where I did not spend time in either summer school, professional development, or both.

We make, certainly, better than a living wage--but it's a damn sight shy of the wage that other professionals make when they put in 60 hour weeks.

[Massacure]

12. Some teachers are more dedicated than others.

I'm a college student, so my memories of high school aren't that far forgotten yet. I certainly agree that there are teachers that work ten or twelve hour days. My junior year, I had a history teacher who would assign 5-6 page papers on a monthly basis, and when they were handed back they were marked up with a lot of comments and feedback. Sometimes I would wonder how long it took her to grade all of those papers and how many purple pens she went through in the process.

On the other hand, I've had teachers would quite obviously work a 7:30-3:00 workday. I had an economics teacher my senior year who made us write a couple two page essays and it always made me feel great to turn in those essays and see the grade posted online that night. If you handed it in, you got an A; I doubt he gave them more than a quick glance. As an interesting side note, he also ran for the city council last year. I took the pleasure to vote against him, but unfortunately he won.

[norepubsin08]

23. You're absolutely right...

if you average what my wife gets paid per hour per week...it is MUCH less than other professionals.

[RobinA]

63. Errrr...no

I'm in mental health and have a Masters. I'd kill for a teacher's salary.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. I do

So do 90% of the teachers I work with.

[norepubsin08]

22. That's bullshit

First of all, their salary reflects a 190 day work year..secondly they have to continuosly get more education (post graduate) education and they have to pay for it themselves. My wife's opening salary coming out of college was 10,434.00 a year. Also their work day doesn't end at 3PM..then it's onto teacher meetings, parents conference, grading papers and lesson plans.

[uppityperson]

25. Teachers I know work 11 1/2 months a yr, same as most full time folks.

Some may get a whole month off between packing classrooms, doing continuing ed, setting up classrooms, but some full time professionals in other professions do also. Most don't get a full month off though.

Edited to add, teachers I know work longer than 8 hours a day also. Besides, if you take that $60,000 and subtract taxes, insurance, what they pay for stuff for classrooms, take home is way less.

True, there are some teachers who work 8 hours a day and take the whole 2 months off in the summer. The ones I know are ethical enough to not do that though, as the way they teach means they work longer hours and it takes a while for them to keep up with their own education and their classrooms/etc.

[Posteritatis]

50. I disbelieve. (nt)

[sufrommich]

81. Too bad. That's the trouble with teachers making the argument

that they work throughout the summer, spend long days at the school,etc.Because of the great number of teachers, most Americans,including myself, have teachers in their families. I have an aunt and uncle in California who were a teacher and a principle before they retired,a cousin in Philadelphia who teaches and 2 cousins in Michigan who teach,all of whom have summers off and manage quite comfortably. Even those who don't have teachers in their families have not only gone through the public school system, but if they're parents, have also spent years with their own children in the system.It's not as if most don't notice that the parking lots are empty after school or during summer vacation. If your going to make the argument that most teachers work ten hour days or spend the summer fixing up their classrooms, you're making those assertions to people who can see with their own eyes that that is blatantly untrue.

[cali]

90. bull. Most teachers do NOT work for 12 months

My sister certainly doesn't. My next door neighbor doesn't. The friend I just visited in AZ doesn't. Nor do any of the other teachers I know.

[pnutbutr]

104. I work for a school system

in IT. Teacher pay grade is higher than mine even if they only have a bachelors degree. Additional degrees jump them up considerably. I have never seen a teacher in a school during the summer until about two weeks before classes start. Hell, the principal is never there either. Most I have talked with get summer jobs for supplemental income. One even lives in Aruba working as a scuba instructor over the summer. So sure, many work 12 months.

[stray cat]

14. You can't live on 60,000 a year in Tacoma? So a 100,000 in NY isn't livable either I guess

[norepubsin08]

24. That's not the point...

a 28 year professional who has gotten top ratings year after year and is sought after as teacher by the incoming children's parents is worth more than that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. With All Due Respect,

60,000 a year is more than fair for her and is way beyond a living wage. I think this thread combined with many of the approval type responses within it is a huge sign of how out of touch with rational reality some here can be at times.

[crimsonblue]

72. they should choose a different line of work then..

Where I went to high school, teachers that had been at the school for 28 years lived very comfortably, because of increases in pay and pension contributions. Most times, teachers make enough money to live off of. If they wanted more money, they should have chosen a more lucrative field.

[Hannah Bell]

79. says who? compared to what?

i think most of the 50%+ of the population making less than that is probably "worth more" too.

how do you expect them to fund teacher's salaries from the public purse if *they* don't make jack shit?

[uppityperson]

27. That is gross pay. After all the deductions, maybe $40,000/yr

[Codeine]

58. That's still pretty excellent

compared to us actual working-class stiffs.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Depending on the field, that could be either over or under compensated

Many liberal arts degrees, even graduate ones are not worth much in labor market

[Joe Fields]

57. Jesus Christ, get in the real world.

The average teachers salary in the U.S. is $50,000 dollars. I make $20,000 a year. Fuck that. The teachers in Washington make plenty. I know, because I lived in the Sea-Tac area for five years in the last 15 years, and $60,000.00 is plenty.

[Hannah Bell]

76. higher than half the people working in the us today. it's a living wage.

tacoma area cost of living not particularly high.

i live nearby.

[alarimer]

84. I've been at my job 12 years and make about half that.

I will never reach 60K. That seems like a reasonable amount to me.

[MercutioATC]

3. Is a national average of $50k acceptable?

...'cause the average public teacher's salary in 2006-2007 was $51,009.

I'm not debating whether teachers should be paid more, but the "living wage" argument is ridiculous.

[norepubsin08]

26. 52K would be great but then take out

5% for retirement 8.5% for social security 1% for L and I at least 15% for Federal Taxes and 9% for state taxes..that leaves 32.5K then factor in that teachers have to pay for continuing post graduate education and for supplies for their children.

[MercutioATC]

29. Well, yeah...but everybody has those deductions.

If somebody is said to make $50k, that's gross, not net.

[norepubsin08]

31. Not everybody has to constantly buy stuff for

26-30 kids year after year...nor do they constantly have to take post graduate credits.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. You have to take post graduate classes to keep the same pay level?

[norepubsin08]

34. often yes!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. They'll lower your pay if you don't take a post graduate course? That's bizarre.

[Hannah Bell]

78. a certain number of continuing ed credits are mandated. if you don't take them,

they don't "lower your pay" - you can't keep teaching.
your credentials are no longer in good standing.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

96. Continuing ed credits wouldn't be post graduation courses necessarily would they?

[norepubsin08]

85. No you'll get no raise

which is like lower pay because of inflation

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. You don't get a cost of living adjustment to cover inflation?

[norepubsin08]

98. Lots of yes, no inflation adjustment

there are times because the school district is too cash strapped, the teachers will go 2-4 years with out a COLA.

[MercutioATC]

36. Understood, but you can't use taxes, insurance, etc. in your argument.

Yes, teaching can have additional expenses (that can be written off) as do many other professions.

[Hannah Bell]

77. everyone pays SS, L&I, federal & state taxes, etc.

teachers (in washington) get a better retirement deal than a lot of folks.

i'm for higher pay for teachers & against merit pay, but when half the population makes under 50K for fulltime work, bitching about 60K not being a living wage isn't particularly compelling.

[etherealtruth]

4. The average teacher salary in my area is $54,000/ year

Which does not provide anything close to an affluent life style, but it does provide significantly more than a living wage and is right on par with other similarly educated professionals.

As I have stated elsewhere, this does not come close to adequately compensating the truly wonderful teachers and is way too much to pay the inadequate ones.

[HereSince1628]

5. Reject Walmartization of education. Teachers should be full time with full benefits.

period.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Teachers are already considered full time and their benefits better than many

[HereSince1628]

38. Your notion that all teachers are full time is mistaken.

I'm not suggesting anything about full time teachers not teaching enough. Although in the trigger happy environment of education discussion on DU I can understand how that could happen.


I'm pointing out growing pressure and advancement of the use of part-time instructors. Instructors who, much like Walmart Employees, don't get benefits.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. I misunderstood you post. Part timers are common in college, have seen few if any in HS

[HereSince1628]

43. It's happening as districts retool for falling revenue

its especially growing in those terrible elementary "extras" like music, art and phys. ed.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. I've seen specialty teachers shared between schools. but never part time

then again nothing would surprise me these days

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

9. In my hometown starting teacher salary is about $25,000.

It is not very much for a professional job. It is not what I would consider a comfortable wage these days, especially if you are raising a family.

[uppityperson]

28. I'm not sure starting here, but friend with 12 yrs in here grosses $35,000

[stray cat]

13. Does 100,000 a year qualify as minimum wage or do you expect more

at least teachers do pretty well in NY. Tenure after 5 years - retirement with 75% pension at 55.

[ulysses]

15. how's that cost of living in NY?

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. My pension is 40%

Damn I should have taught in NY.

[Taking Our Country]

20. And give all workers citizenship and better wages

Since undocumented workers work harder than Americans. Then maybe they can do those jobs to and solve your problem with lazy teachers.

[caseymoz]

21. I suggested in my journal a system of bonuses

If teachers performed well, but it was based on a the results of a testing system that I've thought of.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/caseymoz/17

[demodonkey]

30. How many on here think $60K is too much for teachers, but no problem with $500K or more for doctors?

Yes a good doctor in the right place and time can mean the difference between life and death. But a good teacher in the right place and time can mean a young person HAVING A LIFE, or not.

You may put your brain in the hands of a neurosurgeon, but you'll put your child's brain -- and future -- in the hands of a teacher.

Is one more important than the other?

[norepubsin08]

32. Teachers deserve way more than doctor's

[Maru Kitteh]

44. Really? Would you let a physician 4 years out of high school operate on you?

Perform your digital rectal exam?

[Codeine]

59. Whichever teacher didn't explain apostrophes to you

sure as hell doesn't. :evilgrin: Just kiddin'.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

62. !

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[TwilightGardener]

35. Level of education is certainly a factor in the difference in these salaries, as is

level of responsibility. It's silly to compare doctors to teachers--the fields, the requirements, and the responsibilities are in no way comparable. I'm fine with doctors making what they make, I'm fine with teachers making an average of $50,000. As a registered nurse, I made nowhere near $50,000, btw. I don't know why teachers think they're worth more than nurses--same level of professionalism/education.

[demodonkey]

42. My parents taught, and they BOTH had equivalent number of years of education of any MD...

...or more. I don't think their hard work and study was "silly." And I happen to believe that educating a child's mind for their future is way more important than writing scripts for Cipro (or whatever overused antibiotic is in vogue these days) when the kid gets a sore throat.

BTW, nurses are the ones who bear the brunt of medical responsibilities compared to doctors. The nurse on duty is the one most likely to save your life when something goes wrong in a hospital, not the doctor.

[Maru Kitteh]

46. Bad teachers don't usually kill their charges.

Physicians have FAR more responsibility than any teacher, and then there's the matter of $12,000 to $65,000 and more in malpractice insurance cost depending on the specialty or scope of practice.

[demodonkey]

48. Bad teachers just kill their charges' chances for a good future....

...and single-payer healthcare would stop the malpractice madness. And if doctors weren't so overpaid for what they do, people might not be so inclined to sue, IMHO.

No use suing a teacher, you won't get much.

[TwilightGardener]

53. Um, not true--I'll bet we've all had at least one crappy teacher, at some point in our lives.

And yet, most of us go on to do what we were meant to do anyway, no matter what Mrs. Flugelschlugel did to us in the third grade. Teachers are important, no one is arguing that, but there's just no comparison to the impact a bad doctor can have on someone's life.

[demodonkey]

56. Well I know plenty of people who had one bad teacher and gave up...

...some very talented and intelligent people have fragile self-esteem that can be damaged forever by incidents that may seem trivial to you.

A bad teacher can destroy just as much with a few poorly-chosen words as a doctor can with slip of the scalpel. OK maybe not kill outright, but as I said a promising future can be killed leaving a tragic life of unmet promise.

[Maru Kitteh]

69. What a bunch of crap.

Perhaps you are thinking of DRAMA school.

Anybody who gives up on life and is "destroyed just as much with a few poorly-chosen words as a doctor with a slip of the scalpel" was going to be damaged and give up at some point.

You set impossible standards for teachers.

They must NEVER choose words poorly or they will WRECK, KILL, DESTROY some talented and intelligent person, dooming them to a tragic life of unmet promise, a life that would have blossomed continually and forever, it it were not for those few poorly chosen words.


Stop digging. Now.

[Maru Kitteh]

68. Fail. One bad teacher in 13 years of schooling will not "kill" a child's potential

A bad physician may put the kid in cemetery. There's a shitload of difference and you know it.

As for doctors being overpaid? I'm not an M.D., but YOU get right back to me after YOU have completed 11-16 years of higher education and residency at a cost of $200,000 or more.

[mainer]

82. Not to mention working 60 hours a week

With on-call, weekends, etc.

[TwilightGardener]

47. Yeah, any schmo can be a doctor and write prescriptions...

:wtf: Sorry, I worked side by side with doctors, and I remain very respectful of their abilities and responsibilities. I wouldn't want their job, no matter how much it paid. The simple fact is, the higher the degree level, the more difficult the skill set, and the amount of time it takes to be a fully-trained professional are often what dictates salary. A BA/BS as the standard entry level degree into a profession is not the same as 7-8 years (the last few years being very intensive). It's not going to command the same pay, nor should it. There's also the level of responsibility to consider: I survived some crummy teachers. I may not survive a crummy surgeon, or a crummy pilot, or a crummy defense attorney.

[demodonkey]

54. Well, no one is forcing you to become a medical doctor.

A teacher with a BA is not "fully trained" any more than an intern doctor is... both require (and get) more education to complete their professional schooling. In my state graduate study in mandatory to maintain teacher certification. My parents each had more than 8 years of schooling, and in my mother's case she taught other teachers on the university level. Their work was quite "intensive" and their lives were not easy. But they are still looked down on as having been "just" teachers. Neither ever hit the $60K salary mark, let alone what the lowest-paid MDs make.

And YES I DO think a lot of what doctors do can be done by "any schmo" with reasonable intelligence and some decent training. It does not take that much to analyze basic symptoms, order tests, etc. In many places nurse practitioners are taking over a lot of this basic medical stuff such as prescribing medicine for sore throats.

Oh, and since you think your life depends on them, check out what defense attorneys (especially public defenders) and pilots make -- it is not anywhere NEAR the lowest end for medical doctors, and that is plain wrong.

[TwilightGardener]

60. You seem to think teachers occupy some rarified air. In truth, many professions

and many industries require continuing education beyond entry requirements. Big fucking whoop. My husband is an Air Force officer, it's the norm for people of his rank to work on post-graduate degrees--he took civilian courses after work and received additional certifications--this is expected, not something they'll laud him for. I had to do a certain number of hours of continuing education every year, too--and many RN's are going for their master's degrees in order not to remain bedside nurses for their entire careers. And perhaps you just have a thing against doctors, but I don't think they're overpaid for what they do. Certainly there is more to to what they do, more knowledge required, than what you're giving them credit for--those nurse practitioners are working UNDER physicians, doing only the most routine aspects of practice--anything out of that narrow scope of practice gets referred to an MD. There's a time and place for both--the presence of nurse practitioners does not devalue what doctors do, same as the presence of teacher's aides in the classroom does not devalue what a teacher does.

[demodonkey]

64. No YOU seem to think doctors occupy rarified air. This is IMHO a big part of our healthcare crisis.

Doctors should be paid a decent wage, what they do is hard and important. But they are not Gods, and the sense of entitlement in this country that average doctors are somehow better than other people and need high six-figure and even seven figure salaries is definitely making it harder get to get healthcare reform. That's wrong, and it is hurting people, especially people who have no coverage under our current profit-driven health insurance-based system.

All of these professions -- teacher, pilot, defense attorney, nurse, and doctor -- should be respected similarly (again none are Gods) and paid decently but not exorbitantly.

[TwilightGardener]

66. Well, I can help my kid with his homework, I can even home-school him

if I choose, but I can't operate on him or read his radiology films or administer anesthesia or insert a coronary stent. That's why doctors are "rarified" in terms of skill set and knowledge, and teachers less so. Duh. In this country, you are free to pursue the big bucks that come with being a doctor, along with accepting the exorbitant cost and effort of med school (if you can even get IN), and being called at all hours of the day and night, and watching patients die despite your best efforts, and keeping current with all the advances in your specialty, and being at risk for malpractice, etc. It's simply market forces at work--the unusual amount of time and training and natural skill and brainpower and dedication and responsibility is what drives pay for MD's--at least in the US.

[demodonkey]

67. You just don't get it... enjoy being a nurse...

...I'm sure all the MDs who order you around appreciate your worship.

I hope you don't lose your health insurance (and some nurses in my area are losing theirs; they can't even get care in the hospitals where they work) because as I said attitudes like yours make healthcare reform harder.

Good night... :hi:

[Maru Kitteh]

71. You just don't get it, and you can't admit you have NO FUCKING CLUE

what it takes to be even a general practitioner, what they go through, the grades they have to make, the decade to decade and a half of study, the hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, the dedication, the responsibility, the overhead........... the fact that ASSHOLES expect perfect miracles from them daily but somehow NEVER seem to find the time or inclination to thank them when they get it right.........

No honest educator would compare teaching to the responsibilities of a physician, especially those with an advanced education. They know better.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

74. You want respect but you use that level of condescension. Wonderful example.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. I can assure you "any schmo" can do a lot of what teachers do.

[Hannah Bell]

80. any schmo can do a lot of what you do too.

any schmo can do a lot of what i do, what docs do, what most people do.

the system makes it expensive to become a doctor to weed people out; because it's expensive, they have to charge more...

it might work better if it were less expensive, more open, less pressured, so as to attract more folks interested in the actual work rather than the money.

there was a time in the us when doctors, except for the rich, didn't earn a lot of money.

[mainer]

83. Where do you get the idea all doctors are rich?

The average internist in rural parts of the country probably doesn't take home more than 150,000. Psychiatrists make even less. I don't know of a single internist who even approaches 500K.

You say teachers get 8 years of training. Wouldn't that put them all at PhD level?

Now compare with physicians. An internist would have to go through:

4 years undergraduate college
4 years medical school
3 years of residency

PLUS they must do CME (continuing medical education) courses every single year they are licensed to practice. For the rest of their careers.

(Getting INTO medical school is another real toughie -- medical students are the cream of their college cohorts. These are not "ordinary shmoes. These are the most accomplished students.)

They work 50-60 hours a week.
They work nights and weekends.
If they're in private practice, they must pay all the expenses of running a small business.

I'm as admiring of teachers as anyone else. But to say that they should make as much as doctors is absurd.

A site about DOCTOR SALARIES. Nope, they don't make all that much.

http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html

[Hannah Bell]

94. i think you've mistaken me for someone else.

i nowhere say "all doctors are rich"

or "teachers should make as much as doctors"

or

"teachers get 8 years training"

i think you must be talking to someone else

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

95. You are certainly right about that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. The AMA is a bigger factor.

They are essentially a trade union which strictly controls the number of doctors who are trained in this country. Their salaries are high not primarily because of education but because of an artificially-created shortage.

If the teachers union controlled who and how many people were educated as teachers, you'd see a similar phenomenon.

[TwilightGardener]

91. There's often a nursing shortage, but that raises nurse wages across

the board only minimally from year to year, except in the neediest or most expensive places, where there is often a big difference in wages (California, etc.). Nurses, no matter how much in demand, are not going to make the same as doctors, so that theory is just wrong. I doubt the AMA is deliberately choking off the supply of doctors--there is a "natural selection" at work--just the degree of difficulty getting into med school, and then going through it, getting licensed to practice--is that "artificial control", or is that maintaining high standards so that doctors are competent? Lowering standards and requirements may result in more MD's and take the pay scale down somewhat, but who the hell wants that when YOU are the one on the table getting cut open? And I don't know how you can argue that doctor pay is not in some way related to the 8+ years of college and specialized training and massive loans these folks must take out. Anyway, if any profession should be "controlling the flow", it should be the American Bar Association--there's a lot of lawyers out there. But I digress...

[mainer]

92. Doctors' wages are high? Internists make $160,000 a year.

Pediatricians make 149,000 a year. And that's on average. I don't consider that particularly high, considering the years of training, the work hours, and the responsibility.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. Yes, one is more important.

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. Clearly $500k is a lot.

But that isn't relevant to the OP's view that $60k isn't "a living wage".

The doctor's wage doesn't make the teacher's wage too little any more than the nurse's aid wage makes the teacher's wage seem like too much.

Here we go on the "how dare you compare the _________ to the __________" digression.

[mainer]

93. The only docs making $500K a year are elite surgeons

If you're going to compare the elite with the elite, then maybe you should compare elite doctors with elite teachers -- i.e., tenured full professors at top universities.

[dkf]

103. Are doctors making 500k?

Sounds high to me.

And it is...further research shows 500k is quite a bit higher than the norm. 150k for a regular doc is about right.

http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. I do earn a living wage

Didn't my first couple years but I do now.

Sheesh, it's not like we are all on minimum wage and food stamps. LOL

[Maru Kitteh]

41. "Living" wage? How about paying them like the PROFESSIONALS they are?

Minimum wage should be living wage, not teacher's pay.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

45. In my state I'd be happy to see teachers earn as much as high school football coaches

It's something like 70k vs 40k. How insane is that?

For the record, my reference is to 4A and 5A high school football coaches in the state.

[Posteritatis]

49. It'd even 'better' in university, where the coaches earn orders of magnitude more (nt)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

51. Too true!

A painful reality that is often over looked in higher education. :thumbsup:

[Posteritatis]

89. Woo, found one of the charts

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1086 ... it's a webcomic, yeah, but the figures are all sourced.

And my grad student's salary was half the one there. Whee!

[Lost in CT]

55. Um teachers (esp after the first few years) already earn well above a living wage.

Esp when you consider benefits and tenure and lets be honest here time working....

You won't become a millionaire being a teacher... (unless you invest well) but it is hardly a poverty level existence in most parts of the country.

Teacher salaries in my part of the country start at 42k and top out at 117,569 of course you can earn extra denero by tutoring or coaching...

http://www.norwalkpublicschools.org/jobs.html

[RadicalTexan]

65. Is this for real?

Where I live, a cheaper-than-the-coasts but way-more-expensive-than-the-surrounding-areas mid-sized, liberal city, if I started teaching in a public high school with no work experience, straight after getting my MA in English, I'd start at $39,000. As it was, I worked part time jobs with no benefits for two years, earning about $24,000 a year, until I finally landed an entry-level secretarial job at the local mega-university, paying $29,000. After a year and a half, due to a retirement, I was promoted to bona fide secretary, and got a bump to $34,500.

I owe $50,000 in student loans which have been in forbearance, collecting interest, because I wasn't earning enough to pay them. I get two weeks of paid vacation per year.

I don't really care to hear about how teachers are underpaid. We're all underpaid and overworked.

[crimsonblue]

70. Teachers make enough for a living wage..

at least here in Kansas they do.

[panzerfaust]

86. Better Idea: FIRE all the public school teachers

I remember:

- hours and hours of recesses and being kept after school writing on the board. Usually it was "I will not talk in class"

- being sent to the vice-principal’s office early in my 'schooling' for having gotten caught with a comic book in reading class (where everyone else was, literally, reading "Dick and Jane"). When asked why I was there, I replied “For reading in reading class.” This resulted in his using the long paddle with the holes bored into it, instead of the usual, shorter paddle without holes. The length, and the holes, made the subsequent “whacks” just that more painful.

- the many succeeding vice-principals, shop and gym teachers who later taught me how to take such “whacks” without flinching, and certainly without crying (which, sadly, only made them hit harder and harder). Again, usually for talking in class.

- Mr Dunn, the English teacher who ridiculed me one day for my mispronunciation of “Colonel” when reading aloud. It was literally “You think you are so smart, and you can’t even read the simplest words to the class." He then led the class in laughing at me.

- Mr Cromerty who, after having asked students to submit weekly lists of their reading, called me in front of the class, read out my list for the week – at the time I was really into reading, and often read up to half a dozen books a day. He then launched into a long denunciation me for lying and “making things up”, and ended up sending me to, as usual, the vice-principal’s office. Fortunately, by then we lived in another state, one that did not permit teachers to beat students with wooden boards, and, instead, I was threatened with expulsion if I continued to lie about such things. I was like – “ask me something about any of these books”, he was like “one more word, and you are expelled”. Years later, when I went to take an Evelyn Wood Speed Reading course, the instructor would not accept me, because he said it would be a waste of my time and money as the intake screening showed that I already read faster than anyone he had fully trained.

I could go on, and on, but will just conclude with the fact that I graduated from high school with: a 1.2 grade point average (D), a 99th percentile verbal SAT score, 95th percentile in math, and an abiding contempt of public schools and of public school teachers.

I believe that public schools are simply institutions of socialization to cultural norms - that is to say institutions, of repression and regimentation - and believe they should be abolished. Education should be provided by parents, by private schools, and by free access to public libraries (which are the true beacons of light, and the most important source of 'book learning' – at least they were to me).

In my twelve years of suffering, I can recall only three teachers who were worthy of the name: one of English (Miss Erickson); one of German (Herr Guertler); and the other of History (a woman whose name sadly I cannot recall). These individuals were under paid. All of the rest were overpaid, and several should have been jailed for child abuse.

This extensive experience in public schools leads me to conclude that the mean, median, and modal public school teacher is a controlling, insecure, authoritarian, incurious, mentally limited individual who lacks the training, ability, and skill to actually do anything in life.

From this it follows that I wholly agree with GBS “He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.”

Having reached the point in my life where I can no longer do, I am now, in my approaching dotage, teaching.

Oh, I still do, only not so much – and I am not, and do not expect to be, paid as much as when I was exclusively doing. But, as a teacher of medicine, I still work 12 months a year providing care, as well as teaching, in a university level one trauma center, where any brief lapse in ability, knowledge, or performance can, in a moment, quite literally cost someone their life, their mobility, their ability to speak. or even to think.

Though the word “doctor” comes from the Latin “docere” "to show, teach” by state law, if I wanted, I could not go and teach a high-school health or biology class since I am not an “educational professional” in the eyes of the public school system.

The product of public schooling is designed to be conformity, and the producers of this mindless conformity are public school teachers.

All I can say is …



… but, that is where I started.

[norepubsin08]

99. It would have been worse in a private school

they would have beat the literal shit out of you..ask me, I went to a Catholic School and can tell you horror stories that are way beyond what any public schooler had to endure.

[sense]

100. Yes!

Those are many of my memories too. I home school for academic reasons and it's the best decision we ever made! My kids love learning and are free of the constraints of school so they have plenty of time to do that 24/7. They love it! They learn what they want, when they're interested in it and to whatever depth they wish. They are far ahead of age peers in so many ways and much more mature since they've been living real life instead of school life.

[earth mom]

101. Teachers are paid a whole helluva lot better than most working folks in this country.

If they can't cut in on 50K to 60K a year, they've got a problem and need to cut back on their out of control spending or whatever the hell is causing them to bitch about being low paid.

Puhleeze.

:nopity:

[Baikonour]

102. Corporate execs get paid millions to sit in high rise offices all day, pretending to be busy.

Meanwhile, the teachers, cops, fire fighters, et al struggle. At least (most) doctors get decent pay.

Oh, I better stop. I'm getting all socialist-y.