State takes 'Ax Men' logs-Illegal Logging Tipped off by History Channel Show

[RamboLiberal]

The state Department of Natural Resources has seized more than two dozen logs it says a timber crew featured on the History Channel's reality show "Ax Men" salvaged illegally.

DNR officers served a search warrant Friday on S&S Aqua Logging to retrieve timber the company had pulled from the Hoquiam River without a permit, said the agency's chief enforcement officer, Larry Raedel.

Officers were tipped off after watching the popular series, which chronicles the lives of Pacific Northwest timber cutters, including a father-son team from Aberdeen-based S&S Aqua Logging.

DNR officials discovered that the company did not have a permit from DNR or from the state Department of Fish and Wildlife to salvage those logs from the riverbed.

"These are valuable materials that belong to the public, and this looks like theft, plain and simple," said state Public Lands Commissioner Peter Goldmark.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/403666_axmen14.html

:rofl: History channel needs to change their name - they no longer show history shows.

[Hannah Bell]

1. This reminds me of how old-growth in Seattle's Ravenna Park was lost

to timber thieves in the Depression.

People need good-paying work again.

[Thothmes]

2. Logging use to be a good paying job

Don't know what its like now. My father logged for 36 years and grandfather for 44 years.

[roguevalley]

16. one of my dad's regrets having only logging as a career option. he broke every

bone in his body doing it for his family. Worked 6am to 9pm every day for years. he was my hero.

[Thothmes]

41. My old man broke several bones over the course of

his working life. He always told me when I was young that he logged because that was about all a guy could do with an 8th grade education. Worked real hard at making sure that I didnt go to work in the woods.

[Craftsman]

3. These were already downed trees

Shame, they should have gotten the permits, they were salvaging alreay downed logs not cutting trees.

[Thothmes]

6. Wonder how many boats ripped open their bottoms on those

submerged logs.

[Squatch]

43. Not many...since the Hoquiam is basically only navigable by whitewater kayaks

or other such small craft

[XemaSab]

9. Coarse wood, also known as instream woody material, is critical for instream structure

which is in turn critical for salmon habitat.

I'm working on a project right now to install coarse wood in the Sacramento River, and if someone comes and cuts out the PUBLIC'S logs paid for with PUBLIC money and tries to sell them, I am going to be really pissed.

[ixion]

4. bureaucracy run amok

I mean really. Chances are the trees they salvaged would have become waste. It would have been a waste of a tree. If anything bureaucratic was to happen, I'd like to see a program to help companies like this, rather than prosecute them. They help save trees wasted by big logging companies (a.k.a. Scum of the Earth).

In this sense, the argument about 'public' materials is BS. The government gleefully gives public resources to large energy companies, and I don't see the DNR making a fuss about that.

[Hannah Bell]

5. you have a point with the corp give-aways. there's an argument to be

made that dnr exists mainly to facilitate such transfers of public resources to corps.

[Thothmes]

7. You mean the companies

that provided all of the lumber that most of the houses in the United States are built of. Most of the books and newspapers are printed on. Most of the furniture is made of. If there was no demand for lumber, then there would no one logging the trees.

[tabasco]

8. Same companies that deforested West Viginia from 70% to 30% forest cover

blighting the landscape and causing devastating floods.

Then, they (companies like Cherry River) happily sold the clear cut, constantly burning wasteland to the government, which became the Monongahela National Forest.

Now they screech about how the environmentalists won't let them make a living.

[L. Coyote]

11. Logging towns in the West are named after Michigan towns because they stipped the trees

there first, then moved west for more trees. Now the mountains are near bare around Detroit, Oregon, etc.

[Thothmes]

18. take a good look at the the georgrapy

around the Cascade mountains in Oregon. They dont look bare to me. Yes there are signs of clear cutting. But they have not clear cut in the National forests of Oregon and Washington for the last 20 years.

[L. Coyote]

38. I do every day, out the window. I also fly over the region. Clear cutting continues.

Check out Google Earth, keeping in mind trees grow back even if not like before.

[Thothmes]

42. Federal Land or State Land

Clear cutting in the National Forests have been severely curtailed since the late 80s or early 90s.

[L. Coyote]

46. All lands. Just look in Google Earth.

[Thothmes]

17. The same companies

that provided the logs and lumber to build our houses, our books, our newspaper, our toilet paper, Lets put those people out of business.
We can use adobed and sticks to build our homes, papyrus for our books and corn cobs for toilet paper. No demand, no logging.

[slay]

28. Thothmes is a shill for the logging industry

I guarantee it.

[XemaSab]

39. I am the one making the big claims about the ecological value of instream woody material

yet I am the one who used to work for Pacific Lumber.

Irony. :D

[Thothmes]

40. Havent worked in the logging industry since 1964.

[tabasco]

47. Who suggested that?

You re just making shit up.

It has been proven that logging companies will engage in unsustainable, destructive practices if not controlled.

Yet, they screech how environmentalists won't let them make a living.

Any more ignorant comments from you?

[Webster Green]

12. See post #9

They probably really trash the river or stream with their removal activities.

Those trees have become part of an ecosystem. Their removal would naturally be destructive to that system.

[truedelphi]

13. People do not yet understand how convoluted the

Bureaucratic inter-weave happens to be.

How totally inefficent, with no systems analyst aboard for oversight.

I monitered a Open SPaces Marsh for one winter. You could not dump trash south of the railway tracks, as the Fish and Game people had somehow determined (correctly) that the debris dumped there would wash into the marsh and then into the Bay.

But if you dumped on the north side of the RR tracks, just inches from the protected area, no one gave a rat's ass. Even though the debris still ended up in the marsh and in the Bay.

This experience really gave me an insight into how inefficient all these costly agencies are.

[geek tragedy]

14. Nothing goes to waste in nature. n/t

[formercia]

10. Aberdeen-based S&S Aqua Logging.

is now History.

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Good riddance. n/t

[slay]

15. Fuck loggers. If they can't find a better way to survive than by killing

all our trees then our govenment needs to stop them. Have yall ever watched that Ax-Men show? Some of the most horrible, greedy, sick people you'll ever see. They try to come across as "good ol boys" but really come across as mean, unintelligent, land rapers.

[Thothmes]

19. Ya, lets send all of these people to hell

They rape our land. Of course If you didnt need a house made out of wood, or read a book made out of paper or wipe you fat ass made out paper we would not need to log. Of course if we didnt need to mine coal, so lets fuck all of those men that went into these mines. We dont need oil, so lets fuck all of those men that work the oil rigs. We dont need automobiles, so lets fuck all of those people that mine the iron ore, the limestone, and build the automobiles. These people are rapeist of our environment. Of coure, if you dont live in a house made of wood, read a book, wipe your fat ass with paper, drive an automobile made of steel, you are perfectly free to condemn these men for trying to make a living providing you with the products that they produce.

[slay]

21. Recycling? Hello?

Ok genius, time to edumacate your ass. LOL. Listen - I'm not saying wood is not needed at all, but the way we go about acquiring it is pretty fucked up. Oh and my ass is not fat. Nice try though. And if you try really really REALLY hard, maybe one day you'll be a good little troll all talking bout "fucking all those men" just like a big boy! :P :P

[Thothmes]

23. Your statement was "fuck loggers"

these men have families they support, they go to work every day in a very dangerous industrial environment, they pay taxes, they get their kids educated, they are generally good upstanding members of the communities that they are members of and the only think you can say about them is "fuck loggers". you tell me who is the ass. Its one think to argue about the harvesting policies on public lands as far as forest products are concened,
it is totally a different issue to condemn those people that go to work every day, to provide you with those materials that make our find very useful in your pitiful life.

[slay]

27. And I stand by that statement - Nazi's had families to support too

So your statement has little bearing on reality. You obviously have some kind of personal problem with me so I will add you as only my second ever person to my ignore list. Good job! *You have been added to slay's ignore list*

Oh and you are DEFINITELY the ass. Ass. :P

[Thothmes]

35. Stupid is forever.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. Specifically, which natural resources rules do you disagree with?

I find it interesting that harvesting a crop which takes a year to grow is okay, but one that takes 40 years to grow... not.

It is simply a big plant. It absolutely can be grown and harvested sustainably and without damage to the ecosystem. Modern forestry does far less damage to soils and habitat than just about any other form of agriculture I can think of.

[Squatch]

44. So...what's your house made out of?

[RollWithIt]

20. Uh, the guy pulled them from the bottom of a river... they were already down?

Just pointing that out.

[Parker CA]

22. I think this point is either not understood or is being skipped over before

the outrage ensues. This particular "company," for anyone who has not watched this show is literally a father and son on a very rudimentary barge with a winch, who hook a long rope to the exposed logs and then haul them out of the water. Sometimes one of them dives in with scuba gear and attaches the rope so they can more easily pull these logs out.

They are not destroying any live trees, rather, salvaging old logs that have been submerged in the rivers they operate on. They remove them and turn them into pieces of furniture or sell them to companies that make musical instruments because the wood is aged perfectly after having been underwater for so many years.

Perhaps if people understood more of the story or has seen clips of their work on the show they would not react with such outrage and suggest these people are so terrible.

My $.02, and yes, I've seen the show.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. A) they are destroying habitat. B) they are stealing

Washington loggers operate under fairly strict forest management rules, which include not disturbing fish bearing streams within 200 feet of the shore... the riparian management zone.

These assholes have really pissed off the legitimate forestry companies in this area (I live about 20 miles as the crow flies from where these jackasses dredged the river) because they give the honest ones a bad name.

The DNR does give permits to people to remove logs from rivers which pose a risk of causing flooding. That is not the case with these guys, they are just thieves who both know that they'd never be given permission to take these trees and don't care not about the damage they cause, and they're being defended by ignorant people who only know of logging by watching the sympathetic portrayal given by TV.

They do far more damage to the ecosystem than any normal logger ever does.

[Parker CA]

26. The show never made mention of these guys dredging the rivers they work in. It shows them

on a flat bottom barge simply pulling logs out of the water. If this is illegal, it's their bad, but from what the show has depicted, the damage to the environment seems hardly comparable to clear cutting blocks of acerage.

I'd be curious to see some local links of the coverage if you have any, because it sounds like there is more to the issue than the show covers, which is not entirely surprising.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. It's only not comparable because it's not visible. The damage can be inestimably worse.

I'll give you a link to a local discussion board, I don't know if there are any locally written articles in the local paper yet.

http://www.graysharbortalk.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/8417/Ax_Men.html#Post8417

[Parker CA]

33. Some interesting comments, and I'll definitely follow for a very local

perspective. Thanks for this!

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. Here's a link to the local paper's article

http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2009/03/14/local_news/01news.txt

[Parker CA]

37. Sounds like the owner is facing quite a few charges. Good and informative article.

[Garbo 2004]

34. The Seattle article in the OP makes reference to both the illegality and the environmental impact.

"We determined that this outfit was taking logs that were submerged in the mud," Raedel said.

"They were taking it illegally."

Greg Hueckel, Fish and Wildlife's habitat programs director, said logs in the river belong to the state.

Logs provide a key function for rivers in trapping sediment, harboring insects and other food for fish and creating pools and riffles where fish can rest.

"They are part of the functioning ecosystem, so removing the log would be like removing part of the bed," he said.

Hueckel said his agency does grant permits to remove logs but typically in situations where flooding causes log jams. It's unlikely that a permit would be granted for timber harvest, he said. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/403666_axmen14.html

[XemaSab]

25. As I said above

down logs and coarse wood provide essential habitat values in stream environments.

/consultant :hide:

[RetiredTrotskyite]

45. You'd Think..

that government agencies would use resources to go after people who really break the law. So two guys haul wood which is IN the RIVER and it is fashioned into furniture and musical instruments. I fail to see how this would hurt anyone. I didn't see the show but I do know times are difficult and I can only applaud those who try to make an honest living.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. What they do isn't "logging" it is stealing. n/t

[DeschutesRiver]

48. It was theft, pure and simple, and they knew it - but in this day and age

it is not only the Wall Street blowhards who think it is okay to do a crime, talk about it, and continue to behave that way because there are simply no consequences for the majority of those out there bolding committing crimes.

They were professional loggers. Period. You can't even log on private land without the necessary state permits obtained prior to commencing logging, more less decide you are going to salvage logs or anything else from public waters without gaining permission to do so first. I haven't met a logger yet that doesn't know that simple fact. Whether anyone likes those rules or not, they are in place already and it is no secret to loggers. What is next - hey, look at all that unused wood over there in that city park? Let's go get us some...

We have used many loggers to selectively log for over 30 years - and it is not an easy job for them. I respect the good ones immensely, but am not so clueless as to assume they are all upstanding. As matter of absolute fact, we know and know of some of the logging outfits on Ax Men and have logged in the some of the areas covered by this History Channel special over the years. In fact, we almost hired one of them until during the bidding process, it became clear that they worked hard to earn that bad reputation of being a bunch of liars, cheats and thieves. Let's just say through opportune timing, we discovered a scam in the early planning stages, and immediately found great outfit to replace them. But you'd never guess that from the flattering coverage and exposure they are getting from being on this special. Their reputation out there is so bad that many hope they don't survive this downturn and are out of business permenantly. There are many other honest loggers out there that should be taking the place of this outfit - I'd like to see them take their place on that show. Shouldn't be showcasing the badly behaved of an otherwise good bunch.

And if you know much about logging, you can see horrific safety violations in almost every episode - if they were logging on my land, they'd have been asked to leave. We used to watch it last year open mouthed about some of the scenes, but we realised most people wouldn't have a clue that real decent loggers don't do some of the stunts we saw pulled on that show.