Charter schools are a tip of the hat to deregulation supporters.

[madfloridian]

Charter schools are the future of our country now. The president has said so, and Arne Duncan has been one of their greatest proponents. The students who go there will have their state money sent with them, the traditional public schools will have to operate with less. Yet more will be demanded of the public schools, as the vitriolic statements start about how bad they are, how failed they are.

There is no way now to convince people of the fact that when you starve schools of resources, they will eventually fail. That appears to be the desired result at this time.

Most of us who have been or were in the teaching profession for many years know that the charter schools will be free of the rules and regulations that govern the public schools. They in most cases will have to produce results, and many in Florida have not done that.

Charter schools are in effect deregulated public schools operated with public school money. Just as our financial institutions are crashing around us in large part because of deregulatory failures...we will embark on the school system that embraces it.

“Charter public schools are given freedom from some rules and regulations that traditional public schools have to follow, and in return for that freedom, they are held to a higher level of accountability….When a traditional school fails, it gets more money from the state. When a charter school fails, it closes. Now, that is accountability.”

Freedom with accountability succeeds: capitalism in the market place; expression in the arts; discourse in the press and politics. Rigid regulation burdens the soul and can break the spirit. Teachers do not go into education to comply with federal and state regulations and complete paperwork.
Parent Power

Deregulation and capitalism in the school system, so no "rigid regulation burdens the soul and can break the spirit."

More on the topic of the deregulation of public schools by sending the money to charter schools.

Deregulation and Charter School Swindles

by Gary K. Clabaugh Ed. D.
Professor of Education, La Salle University

Competition

Two main ideas inform the charter school movement. The first is that competition is an essential ingredient in school improvement. Charters are said to provide that.

The trouble with this argument is that competition doesn't select the best, only the most popular. McDonald's doesn't produce the best-tasting or most-nutritious food, for instance, but its heart attack specials certainly are popular. A second-rate school might prove similarly competitive if it provides a tawdry but reassuring education to the children of the low-information crowd. Fearful your kids will discover you are an ignoramus? Send them to Alpha Charter where they will never learn to doubt.

Deregulation

The second main idea behind charters is that state directives are strangling public school innovations. That's why charters are exempted from many regulations restricting the operations of traditional public schools. The trouble is that deregulation creates opportunities for mountebanks to pilfer the public purse, abuse children, and the like. As a matter of fact, to the extent that charter operators have freedom of action, the confidence tricksters and bunko artists among them find opportunities for fraud and misuse of public funds. What is more, the politicians (and/or their relatives) who push charters often end up feeding at the charter school trough themselves.

Be sure at the link by the professor to read the part entitled Deregulation Writ Large. He speaks of the failure of some of the deregulated financial institutions.

What's the common element in both of these financial debacles? Deregulation. What is at the heart of the charter school movement? Deregulation

Here is a little bit about the deregulated schools in New Orleans. This is from a blog wanting to save public schools, so they might have a point of view.

Deregulation, New Orleans Schools, and the Kindness of Strangers

In the meantime, the small change merchants of greed have come to New Orleans and other urban centers, where charter schools are replacing most of the public schools that were blown up by natural disasters (Katrina) and by manmade disasters (NCLB). These bottom-feeding greed merchants of the ed industry have been handed the schools to exercise their marketing savvy and their business acumen, where oversight of accounting practices (test scores) are non-existent and protection of consumers (children and parents) is nowhere to be found. And, of course, due process and decent benefits for workers (teachers) is a thing of the past.

As reported in the Times-Picayune, edu-entrepeneurs are out canvassing the Wal-Mart parking lots around New Orleans looking for families with children of school age, preferably non-poor 6th graders without learning difficulties or other special needs. And no one wants fourth graders or eighth graders in particular, since children in these grades have to take the high-stakes LEAP test, and where the peristaltic bulges of failed children are the largest. (See chart from the Times-Picayune).

It is an interesting column, lots more at the link.

Here is a column by Derrick Z. Jackson in a San Francisco school blog.

Charter schools: another deregulation flop

Charter schools: another deregulation flop
Here's a good review, albeit not new, of the book "The Charter School Dust-Up" mentioned in the previous post. It's from the Boston Globe and sums up the book's conclusion that charter schools are not doing better than traditional public schools. They're just another fad, not a miracle.


Published on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 by the Boston Globe
Charter Schools' Troubled Waters
by Derrick Z. Jackson

Despite promising us a compass, charter schools have hit another shoal. More evidence says they are no better than public schools.

"Proponents of charter schools have a deregulationist view of education that says the marketplace leads to better schools," Lawrence Mishel, president of the nonprofit, nonpartisan Economic Policy Institute, said over the telephone. "The facts of the matter suggest that this view is without merit."

continue reading...

Mishel and three other university researchers from Columbia and Stanford universities are authors of the forthcoming book "The Charter School Dust-Up." The researchers reviewed federal data and the results from 19 studies in 11 states and the District of Columbia. They found that charter school students, on the whole, "have the same or lower scores than other public school students in nearly every demographic category."

And here is more on deregulation from Oklahoma this month.

Senate bill deregulates state schools

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The Oklahoma Senate has passed a bill to allow 20 percent of public schools to operate as charter schools, free of many current state mandates.

Sen. John Ford’s School District Empowerment program now goes to the House for consideration.

Ford, R-Bartlesville, said his bill seeks to restore local control to Oklahoma schools. Schools would be deregulated over five years, beginning with next year in districts where schools have been identified by the Board of Education as in need of improvement.

Democratic opponents said the bill will eliminate reforms from a landmark 1990 school act pushed through by Republican Gov. Henry Bellmon and a Democratic Legislature.

I taught in several schools over my 30 plus years. Some were excellent, with great family participation, others were not. I saw this effect happening in the last school in which I taught. It was once one of the best schools in the city, a neighborhood school which thrived. Then the neighborhood changed as times changed. No one kept up the resources the school needed.

Their resources were going to charter, magnet, choice schools. Those resources included guidance counselors, reading teachers, roving teachers to help us cope with the new students who were not proficient in English. It would be weeks apart before we got help in translating, and we usually had the neighbors scour for someone local to translate.

As I said in another thread, I realize the deed is done. We are going to have more and more charter schools. I know few teachers who approve of this step, the step to give free traders their competition and choice...and the step to cut down regulation.

It won't matter, but I think we should still speak up and give our views.

[msongs]

1. charters are a scam to skim resources and keep the kiddie riff raff back in the regular schools nt

[sense]

4. Yea, you two have your

own private little rant here. Don't let reality interfere. Be sure you don't listen to anyone else's ideas.... that could puncture the bubble you're living in.

[madfloridian]

8. I gave views of respected people. Don't put my opinions down.

Feel free to have your own.

[sense]

9. I've been trying.

You don't listen. Go back to the forums you were in today. Many people tried to talk to you, to have a real discussion, and you just kept screaming the same thing back at them every time they posted! You all hate teachers. You all hate all the unions!

I'm probably just wrong in thinking that you wanted any discussion. I should have believed you when you showed us that.

[madfloridian]

10. So all the people I quoted were wrong? You can discuss but I can't?

I back up my opinions with other views from those who know more about it than I do.

I do have a right.

[sense]

11. You're still not listening.

I was wrong. You don't want discussion at all. You just want to talk at people.

You certainly have a right to do that, I'll just quit assuming your questions aren't rhetorical.

[madfloridian]

12. Are you listening to my opinions?

I have a good background in education, I quoted those with a good background.

Sorry you feel that way about me. A few here do respect me and my views.

[sense]

16. I would really suggest you go back over today... really read your posts and the

people who responded to you.

I'd like to respect everyone. It would be easier if people read the entire post, thought about it with an open mind and realized that not everyone is out to get them and there may be some other people out there who might know a little something too.

But, then again, I'm assuming far too much when I think everyone on here is here to have a real discussion. That was silly of me. Lumping you all together.

[madfloridian]

19. The people who responded to me started with the premise

that public schools and public school teachers are inherently flawed. I start with the premise that they are not inherently flawed.

You are really upset with me because I have a point of view and argue for it.

I think President Obama could have handled the education thing better this week.

Did you know you don't have to read my posts?

[sense]

25. No, I thought I was being forced to read your posts.

No one was starting from that premise. This is usually where, it appears you stop reading, and start your next repeat. You were putting those words in their writing over and over. The public school system is flawed and there are flawed teachers. You kept insisting over and over that "everyone" except you was expressing that every school and every teacher was flawed. That isn't true.

I'm not remotely upset with you. I'm simply thinking that you spend a lot of time arguing without being as effective as you could be.

You're beginning with a false premise that the school system isn't flawed and then declaring everyone else is lying about their experiences or just too stupid to understand. Not in those words, but that is your message. You keep repeating yourself over and over and not addressing the things that other people add to the conversation. It's much easier for people to listen to you if you listen to them, with an open mind, and read and consider their entire post, not just one or two random words you read that set you off.

I think President Obama is a lot smarter than you think and a lot more subtle in most of the things he's doing and a lot of people are jumping on him before he can show the details of any of his plans. We all need to be patient. It took a long time for us to get in the position we're in and it's not going to be fixed immediately. Wait for the details. Wait to see the follow through. This is not George Bush we're talking about...... this is an intelligent, rational, logical, ethical, truly good person who cares about others.

[madfloridian]

31. You are entitled to your opinion.

I think Obama is brilliant. I also think that he will probably end Medicare and Social Security as we know it.

More on that later.

[tonysam]

104. When It Comes to Education Issues, Obama is NOT "Smart," He is a Neoliberal,

and I wish to hell Joe Biden, who is married to a teacher, would knock some sense into him.

You know something? Even the President of the United States can be wrong on some issues. I just don't blindly follow him, and I do know something about educational issues.

[Sancho]

263. Hmmm....I have to disagree with one thing here, and I've been following....

When I read Audacity of Hope a year ago, I thought that Obama's view of education was naive compared to some other places where he had more experience. I thought his choice of Secretary of Education was also done with less thoughtfulness than some other appointments. His science cabinet won a nobel prize, etc...Linda Darling-Hammonds was on board, and some others were available.

I have to agree with Madfloridian on this one (and we don't always agree); the basic premise that charter schools are used as a gop / fundamentalist trick to undermine public education is correct. The fact that charter schools won't fix perceived flaws in public schooling today is well-documented.

DU has lots of folks who have given in to the propaganda that teachers/schools are "bad". Even though there are individual cases everywhere, the biggest issue with schools today is keeping the best teachers (who leave in droves), and poorly supported classrooms that are simply overcrowded and underfunded.

You can see all the teachers being laid off this year. If you had a math or science degree and were in demand for a stable job; if you had good verbal skills and could work for a local lawyer for more money as an office assistant; or if you had just taken a gun away from a 2nd grader (my wife did this last year), you would also think that the place of work and support were the problem - not the good teachers who are well-trained, dedicated, and caught in a crazy system.

Overall, there is no reason to spend a penny on charter schools.

[raccoon]

266. In 2001, a woman told me there was a conspiracy against the public schools.

At the time, I thought she was :tinfoilhat:

I decided she was right some years ago.

[sense]

304. delete. double post

[sense]

305. Contradiction and clarification

"DU has lots of folks who have given in to the propaganda that teachers/schools are "bad". Even though there are individual cases everywhere, the biggest issue with schools today is keeping the best teachers (who leave in droves), and poorly supported classrooms that are simply overcrowded and underfunded."

********************

The first sentence contradicts the second one.

No one is saying that ALL teachers and/or ALL schools are bad. They're simply saying over, and over, and over that the system is broken. There are bad teachers and there are bad schools. It's not possible that anyone knows all the teachers and all the schools and can certify that all are good. That would be ridiculous. Quit trying to put words in other people's writing!

Assuming will make you wrong more often than not.

[Sancho]

323. The system is not broken...by all objective historical measures it is good.

The typical teacher is better educated than ever. Schools are teaching a more complex curriculum to all types of kids well. The system is highjacked by politicians who want to make a profit, special interests who use it for white flight and other discriminatory efforts. I repeat, LOTS OF FOLKS have given in to the propaganda! That is true. The individual cases of problems are much more administrative and lack of fair resources than anything else. The system is not broken (you have given in to the propaganda). Compared to 30, 50, or 70 years ago, there are more opportunities, better standards, and better prepared teachers than ever before. IF we can keep the propaganda promoters from stealing the money - this very rich nation could easily support an education system that could change the history of mankind!

No contradiction is evident. Perhaps you don't get it.

"Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still."

Teachers and schools in the US are not respected and supported because of those (maybe you're one) who go off as critics without seriously looking at the facts.

[sense]

334. propaganda

You don't see the contradiction in what you just wrote?

*******

"DU has lots of folks who have given in to the propaganda that teachers/schools are "bad". Even though there are individual cases everywhere, the biggest issue with schools today is keeping the best teachers (who leave in droves), and poorly supported classrooms that are simply overcrowded and underfunded."

********

You said the biggest issue with schools today is that the best teachers are leaving in droves and the classrooms are poorly supported, overcrowded and underfunded! That doesn't sound broken to you?

My children and I were in the school system. They failed to educate my child grade, after grade, after grade. Schools group children by age and declare that everyone of the same age must "learn" the same thing. That's ridiculous! Each and every child learns at their own rate. Age has nothing to do with it. My child entered kinder reading at a 3rd grade level, ready for algebra and they refused to "teach" him anything except addition and subtraction for the first 3 years! That's abuse!

You would be insane if that's what you were forced to do for 6 hours a day for years.

Millions of people can tell you ways that schools failed them and their children because they don't use the practices that have been proven to best facilitate learning. There have been scientific studies that definitively show that the practices used in most schools today aren't what works best, they're what works best for the admin. and teachers. Schools are for children, yet doing the best for our children is not the focus.

I'm not advocating for private schools or any other type you might object to. I'm advocating that the public schools need to use the best methods, not ignore the studies and continue doing what doesn't work. That doesn't mean the methods they're using don't work for some, it just means we are not doing the best we can for most.

[Sancho]

376. No, the system is not "broken" - but back to the point

What's broken are politics and controllers who use propaganda to get support for bad ideas that disrupt the system. My grandparents, parents, wife, siblings and kids were all products of public schools from the poorest rural communities in the deep south. And 100% are college graduates with doctorates, MD's, and you name it. I've taught in recent years in small towns in SC and GA and FL. There are great teachers and good learning going on...even under difficult conditions. Good teaching is not as "magic" as you may think, and most universities are well-aware how to train good teachers. There are lots of good methods that good teachers know and have experience with using - but most of the "bad" that you see is a result of misplaced manipulations of a few who want to either do away with public education or else drive some social value agenda.

IF your kids were abused by a paced and scripted curriculum that drilled math facts, then it's your fault because NONE of the teachers in any program I've ever seen would teach that way unless the district wasn't making them. The best teachers didn't like teaching that way and sometimes leave instead of fighting. And the motivation for that forced march! You (or other parents) didn't raise hell and vote for someone who would get rid of a "my dear aunt sally" standardized test that was the target of the principal. Public schools used to belong to you! Now they belong to some corporation that makes a profit and lets you do the job at home while paying for both!?!

Millions of church goers now realize that they were duped for supporting torture and war and other awful things. We can debate how "bad" schools are or what part is "bad" and likely won't get anywhere. I don't think the military is broken if they are ordered into a stupid war. It's the ones doing the ordering that are the problem!

------------------------------ Onward to the point of Charter Schools -----------------

Now, the original post was about charter schools. Charter schools are a way to dupe YOU into letting someone else offer you a lick and a promise, get you to do the work (likely sometimes well and sometimes poorly), and leaving the dollars and policies to those who want to steal it. It's not the teachers nor the idea of "good schools" that is "broken". The problem is simple to fix. Just stop falling for the propaganda. If the exact money was in the hands of front-line teachers and reasonable parents without interference, there would not be a need to have charter schools; at least not the way that charter schools are set up now. I think Obama has not really applied himself to this issue or he would realize that Charters are not the solution, so he has also fallen for a mistaken idea. No one is an expert at everything, but it's interesting that Obama was successful at Harvard when he went to a wide variety of schools overseas, in Hawaii, and living in several homes away from his parents. Someone in addition to his mother was a good teacher to Obama! We just don't know the details, but he learned to think critically and value education, so I can live with the little mistakes if he gets it right by the end of his second term! I will do what I can to fight the fight here in Florida.

---------whew-----------------

BTW, I have written and published pre-school readiness tests and taught math at all levels. Kindergarten students (age 5) aren't developmentally ready for "algebra" except some simple concepts like ordering unless they are entering kindergarten at age 7! (See Piaget). I've analyzed tests from thousands of 4, 5, and 6 year old students. You'd be hard pressed to find more than a couple that were ready for "algebra". Their physical brains are wired for it yet. Some 8 year old third graders can handle beginning algebraic concepts, and most 3rd grade curriculums have those, but I don't want to debate what "algebra" is...

Age has LOTS to do with learning, no matter the ability of the child. I've also given what you'd call "IQ" tests to young children in order to find gifted and precocious ones. Again, you can have all kinds of "talents" and "abilities" that are amazing, but age (maturity) is always a factor in a child's learning. (Adults have maturation also!)

You need to get more involved with the issues in the schools we have, and not let someone steal the money for evil purposes. That's my take on it, so I hope that makes sense.

[sense]

404. You sound like part of the problem....

First, you failed to address what I wrote about, because you don't want to acknowledge that what I pointed out is correct.

Then you changed the subject and accused me of thinking teaching was magic. That's a huge stretch. I'm happy that school worked for your family. That does not negate our experience with school and the many teachers involved in refusing to educate my son.

You then state that if teachers and school failed my son it's my fault. Have you lost your mind? I was in the schools fighting for my son for 4 years. They system is broken and no amount of weird accusations by you can make that a lie.

I've studied child development too, and just because there is a norm or an average doesn't mean that's where every kid fits. My kindergarten son, at age five was ready for algebra. I would not expect most to be where he was, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't exist or that he isn't who he is. You seem to be making an enormous amount of assumptions. He was doing addition and subtraction before he was two. That's not the norm either, but it doesn't mean that kids like him don't exist.

Just because the schools you've seen appear to work, doesn't mean that all schools or all teachers are working. It doesn't even mean they were working for all the students. If you really think that the small sampling you've seen can be extrapolated to mean that schools aren't broken, that is sad. You shouldn't be teaching if you're not able to get that simple fact.

I pulled my son out of a public language immersion school when he was 8 and had finished 5th grade and we home schooled. Home schooling isn't what you think it is either. It has nothing to do with kids sitting around the kitchen table with mom and a bible! He's 18, he speaks 6 languages and has 3 years of college credit. He's enrolled in one of the most academically rigorous colleges in the US and he's doing very well.

When you generalize and base things only on your experience or the things you think you know, you do a disservice to everyone and you lose out on learning. You've accused me of so many ridiculous things based on air. You are like the many of the teacher's we've had trouble with. Kids don't fit neatly into a box any more than we do.

[Sancho]

414. time too quit auguing with you...good luck

[sense]

415. too?

You make my points perfectly!

[Sancho]

416. You seem to be overly critical and off the target of charter schools...

and that's why it's not worth my time to debate any more with you... if you are looking for grammar and spelling on a blog at 3am, go for it. You are too smart for me!

If you want to PM me, I'd like to see any evidence of a 2 year old doing the math you suggest if any exists! That would be interesting and worth my while.

I've seen fifth graders make a perfect score on the SAT (quant); and I've seen elementary age kids in college calculus. Those are pretty rare cases and would explain why a child was bored.

As I said, good luck to you, enjoy the home schooling and charter school.

[sense]

428. right.....

You won't address the issues you claim to be disputing, yet continue to spew myth.

My one year old doing the math, at less than two, was obviously doing it in his head. Toddlers don't generally write well. No proof is necessary, just an open mind. Here's a link you might want to check out. hoagiesgifted.org

Plenty of info there.

I'm sorry I didn't tape him as we drove down the road doing math to entertain ourselves. Kids are capable of a lot more than we give them credit for. Granted, my child is very gifted, but believing that what he did isn't possible is a big part of the problem with teachers. The most toxic of his teachers didn't believe that gifted children exist, despite having the principal override her and move my son up two grades. She's still teaching and abusing the brightest.

No matter the intelligence of the student, public schools are required to teach them, not use them as mini-teachers and bore them into submission.

We don't use charter schools, but if there was a local one that worked, we'd have tried it. I was forced to home school by an incompetent, uninterested school district. It did turn out to be the best decision we ever made.

I'm not remotely off topic, I was responding to your ridiculous assertion that the public school system isn't broken! You may not be able to see that, because you're in it. That doesn't make the rest of us wrong.

[Sancho]

431. I'll wait for your pm...

best

[Maat]

26. I agree with what you've said, Sense.

That's the way it appears to me.

Beloved Daughter attends a charter school (we homeschool; technically, it's independent study). We meet monthly with a credentialed teacher. My daughter's done wonderfully with this program. It's been a lifesaver. I will fight until my dying breath to keep her school going. They serve just as many kids as any other school. Because of the success with it, I'm going to fully support it. It works well for a variety of people for a variety of reasons, including children on strict diets due to juvenile diabetes, etc.

If there are those who will not listen and appreciate a successful alternative, then that's not our problem.

Homeschoolers ... come join us over in our homeschooling group here on DU.

[madfloridian]

29. Couldn't it still be done in a separate class in a public school?

I would think we would all be free to have opinions. Homeschoolers who came to my class by fifth grade were well-prepared educationally.

[Maat]

46. As a matter of fact ...

our charter is a public school, our charter has optional regular classes, AND some of our local schools have great independent study programs.

The line is blurring.

I honor your service to the community, and the various options out there. Our local district is giving the parents different options.

[Doremus]

237. My DD attended online schools also. One was administered by the local school district.

The other was a charter school.

The only difference was the local district required some in-school time at a special lab they had set up.

More public schools are offering innovative programs to reach kids that would have fallen through the cracks before. I'm glad the charter was there when we needed it but even more hopeful that the local district is making strides in the right direction.

For students who have no special needs that the local schools are unable to meet, I agree with the OP in all respects.

[sense]

33. Thanks, I will!

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maat]

116. What an insulting, B.S. reply.

Please inform yourself. The only difference between my daughter's charter school and any other school is who the mid-level managers are. My daughter's charter is a non-profit, and the staff reports to the head of the non-profit (a "principal"), whereas the typical school has a regular principal (no additional titles involved). All report to the school board. All of the schools are open to all students, with a vast array of programs involving total homeschooling to one-, two-, three- and four-day attendance. Some are programs in which the kids attend five days per week.

The money is being used very efficiently, and, as a result, there are many options for all families. Budgets are carefully planned, with the kids benefiting immensely.

Please see Noamnety's post below.

Have a nice day, as I will not be responding to you in the future, as I will not be reading your posts.

[Sancho]

417. There's nothing wrong with any kind of special accommodation, including at home...

We have dealt with special people in our house (including a type I diabetic!), gifted, and foster kids with all kinds of issues. I've seen public schools designed and funded for almost anyone.

The issue is one of destroying public schools for all by skimming the resources and letting a corporate takeover of the entire education process. Charter schools and vouchers are currently a vehicle used to privatize, segregate, and literally steal.

I don't think educators are generally against "alternatives". I think that "alternatives" should be consistent with progressive values. There are some out there that play on your desire for something that works well for you to dupe you into a system that is bad for all in the end. I have no idea about your circumstances in your school district, but in Florida and many states, there is a serious movement to dismantle public education. The original post suggests that there is a danger of that happening with this particular Education Secretary.

I agree with the post.

[elleng]

5. You have a lot of 'kiddie riff raff' in your schools?

.

[ColbertWatcher]

2. Charter schools will be considered an experiement.

How long should we give them before we demand our resources be pulled out the "Iraq of Education"?

[leftstreet]

6. ouch

the "Iraq of Education"

Nice!
Says it all.

[ColbertWatcher]

13. Thank you.

I can see proponents of charter schools using the same reasoning and excuses the warmongers used to first invade, then stay in Iraq.

At some point we had to accept that the Iraq invasion was a failure, and so we must in terms of privatization.

Get out now.

[elleng]

48. Charters are not privatisation; they are an optional type of public education.

I'm sure there's an Iraq war analogy here somewhere (!) but I can't think of it at the moment.

[ColbertWatcher]

83. Charters (as I understand them) are on the way toward privatization and ...

... away from public schools.

We can stop pretending that they're not.

[tonysam]

105. They are a Middle Step by the Privatizers to Undercut Public Ed Altogether.

A few charters are good, but a lot of them are lousy, and in any case, charter schools are promoted by people who have the erroneous idea schools are businesses and should be run on a competitive business model.

These privatizers start with a false premise and work their way from that false premise.

[proud2BlibKansan]

354. They are privatized in my state

Who runs the charters where you are?

[Joe Fields]

408. That is a false statement. Charter schools are NOT privatized in Missouri.

Why would you say that, or do you just not know what you are talking about?

The state of Missouri has public, private and charter schools. Charter schools are not private. It is true that some, not many private schools applied to the state to become charter schools, but the charter schools aren't private. Please get your facts straight.

[Luminous Animal]

411. KIPP, a private administration corporation

runs 1 school in Missouri.

[mzteris]

440. How much does it cost to run a KIPP school?

The level of per-pupil funding for KIPP schools varies greatly across the country, due to widely divergent funding allocations at the state and local level.

As primarily public charter schools, KIPP schools typically receive 60 to 90 percent of the operational revenue and none of the capital expenditure revenue of district schools.

It costs additional money than is allocated to operate a KIPP school in order to pay for the extended day, week, and year. KIPP estimates this additional cost at roughly $1,100 to $1,500 per student. This additional money pays for the extended schedule, staff salaries, and annual field trips. For example, KIPP teachers typically earn 15 to 20 percent more in salary than traditional public school teachers for this extra time.

In addition, as primarily charter schools, a majority of KIPP schools incur additional costs in non-core education areas such as facilities and busing, which district schools traditionally do not incur. This also increases the level of per-pupil spending at KIPP.

Since charter schools receive less public dollars than a traditional public school, KIPP spends the same or less per student than most (if not all) urban districts spend on average even with additional fundraising. For example, the KIPP schools in New York City spend less per-pupil educating their students than the average New York City middle school per-pupil expenditures. One of the ways that KIPP schools do this is by being relatively lean on administrative costs.

[Luminous Animal]

443. Thank you KIPP spokesmodel for that commercial break.

Long on PR, short on verifiable facts.

[mzteris]

466. Work hard. Be nice.

"Today, 66 KIPP schools in 20 states enroll more than 16,000 students, and the network has expanded to include elementary and high schools as well as middle schools. (KIPP’s goal is to have 100 schools and 25,000 students by 2011.) In every city, KIPP students surpass district and citywide performance. In New York last year, for example, 94 percent of KIPP eighth-graders scored at or above grade level on the state math test—and 78 percent did the same on the English test—while in the city as a whole, those numbers were 60 percent and 43 percent, respectively. In fact, in many cities—including New York, Washington, Baltimore, San Jose, and New Orleans—the top-performing public middle school is now a KIPP school. It’s worth noting, too, that KIPP’s impact reaches far beyond its own network of schools, as scores of other charter schools across the country now emulate the KIPP model."


****


High quality public education for all children.
Work hard. Be nice.

New York Post - "Smarter Charter Kids - Scoring Above Students At Nearby Public Schools"

By Carl Campanile
July 20, 2006

Charter schools in the city are vastly outperforming public schools in their neighborhoods, according to a bombshell state report obtained by The Post.

The just-released study by state Education Department found students in 11 of 16 city charter schools outscored kids in nearby public schools on the state's fourth-grade English and math exams in 2005.

The academic gap widens in the upper grades, the report said, with kids in five of six upper-grade charter schools faring better on eighth-grade English and math exams.

. . .In the upper grades, students at the KIPP Academy Charter in The Bronx are the class of the field - 71.4 percent passed the eighth-grade English exam and 91.6 percent passed the math test.

At nearby IS 162 in the Bronx, just 20.8 percent passed the eighth-grade English exam and 33.2 percent passed the math test. And that was one of the better public middle schools in the area.

[proud2BlibKansan]

418. Some charter schools are run by private corporations in MO

I say that because I do know how the system works.

I take it you don't understand the difference between a private school and a privatized charter school.

[mzteris]

439. Missouri Revised Statutes

Missouri Revised Statutes
Chapter 160
Schools--General Provisions
Section 160.400

August 28, 2008


Charter schools, defined, St. Louis City and Kansas City school districts--sponsors--use of public school buildings--organization of charter schools--affiliations with college or university--criminal background check required.

160.400. 1. A charter school is an independent public school.

2. Charter schools may be operated only in a metropolitan school district or in an urban school district containing most or all of a city with a population greater than three hundred fifty thousand inhabitants and may be sponsored by any of the following:

(1) The school board of the district;

(2) A public four-year college or university with its primary campus in the school district or in a county adjacent to the county in which the district is located, with an approved teacher education program that meets regional or national standards of accreditation;

(3) A community college located in the district; or

(4) Any private four-year college or university located in a city not within a county with an enrollment of at least one thousand students, and with an approved teacher preparation program.

3. The mayor of a city not within a county may request a sponsor under subdivision (2), (3), or (4) of subsection 2 of this section to consider sponsoring a workplace charter school, which is defined for purposes of sections 160.400 to 160.420 as a charter school with the ability to target prospective students whose parent or parents are employed in a business district, as defined in the charter, which is located in the city.

4. No sponsor shall receive from an applicant for a charter school any fee of any type for the consideration of a charter, nor may a sponsor condition its consideration of a charter on the promise of future payment of any kind.

5. The charter school shall be a Missouri nonprofit corporation incorporated pursuant to chapter 355, RSMo. The charter provided for herein shall constitute a contract between the sponsor and the charter school.

6. As a nonprofit corporation incorporated pursuant to chapter 355, RSMo, the charter school shall select the method for election of officers pursuant to section 355.326, RSMo, based on the class of corporation selected. Meetings of the governing board of the charter school shall be subject to the provisions of sections 610.010 to 610.030, RSMo, the open meetings law.

7. A sponsor of a charter school, its agents and employees are not liable for any acts or omissions of a charter school that it sponsors, including acts or omissions relating to the charter submitted by the charter school, the operation of the charter school and the performance of the charter school.

8. A charter school may affiliate with a four-year college or university, including a private college or university, or a community college as otherwise specified in subsection 2 of this section when its charter is granted by a sponsor other than such college, university or community college. Affiliation status recognizes a relationship between the charter school and the college or university for purposes of teacher training and staff development, curriculum and assessment development, use of physical facilities owned by or rented on behalf of the college or university, and other similar purposes. The primary campus of the college or university must be located within the county in which the school district lies wherein the charter school is located or in a county adjacent to the county in which the district is located. A university, college or community college may not charge or accept a fee for affiliation status.

9. The expenses associated with sponsorship of charter schools shall be defrayed by the department of elementary and secondary education retaining one and five-tenths percent of the amount of state and local funding allocated to the charter school under section 160.415, not to exceed one hundred twenty-five thousand dollars, adjusted for inflation. Such amount shall not be withheld when the sponsor is a school district or the state board of education. The department of elementary and secondary education shall remit the retained funds for each charter school to the school's sponsor, provided the sponsor remains in good standing by fulfilling its sponsorship obligations under sections 160.400 to 160.420 and 167.349, RSMo, with regard to each charter school it sponsors.

10. No university, college or community college shall grant a charter to a nonprofit corporation if an employee of the university, college or community college is a member of the corporation's board of directors.

11. No sponsor shall grant a charter under sections 160.400 to 160.420 and 167.349, RSMo, without ensuring that a criminal background check and child abuse registry check are conducted for all members of the governing board of the charter schools or the incorporators of the charter school if initial directors are not named in the articles of incorporation, nor shall a sponsor renew a charter without ensuring a criminal background check and child abuse registry check are conducted for each member of the governing board of the charter school.

12. No member of the governing board of a charter school shall hold any office or employment from the board or the charter school while serving as a member, nor shall the member have any substantial interest, as defined in section 105.450, RSMo, in any entity employed by or contracting with the board. No board member shall be an employee of a company that provides substantial services to the charter school. All members of the governing board of the charter school shall be considered decision-making public servants as defined in section 105.450, RSMo, for the purposes of the financial disclosure requirements contained in sections 105.483, 105.485, 105.487, and 105.489, RSMo.

13. A sponsor shall provide timely submission to the state board of education of all data necessary to demonstrate that the sponsor is in material compliance with all requirements of sections 160.400 to 160.420 and 167.349, RSMo.

14. The state board of education shall ensure each sponsor is in compliance with all requirements under sections 160.400 to 160.420 and 167.349, RSMo, for each charter school sponsored by any sponsor. The state board shall notify each sponsor of the standards for sponsorship of charter schools, delineating both what is mandated by statute and what best practices dictate. The state board, after a public hearing, may require remedial action for a sponsor that it finds has not fulfilled its obligations of sponsorship, such remedial actions including withholding the sponsor's funding and suspending for a period of up to one year the sponsor's authority to sponsor a school that it currently sponsors or to sponsor any additional school. If the state board removes the authority to sponsor a currently operating charter school, the state board shall become the interim sponsor of the school for a period of up to three years until the school finds a new sponsor or until the charter contract period lapses.

[proud2BlibKansan]

447. KIPP is a private corporation, as you have already been told,

and they have a school in KC at 18 and Prospect.

We also have had a couple Edison schools.

Better go tell them they are breaking the statute you posted.

[mzteris]

465. Who is their "sponsor" maybe?

I don't know - it seems Missouri does a lot of things that they say they don't do. Haven't you been complaining about the system ever since I met you?

BTW - do you think KIPP has a pretty good working model?

[Sancho]

419. Yes, when you open the door for well-meaning alternatives...

originally you "chartered" teachers for a special school or purpose, that made some sense. Unfortunately, hot-shots who want to make a profit, right-wingers who have a hidden agenda, and some who want to dismantle or privatize schools are waiting for the chance to jump in.

As soon as the charter or voucher system is available, some of them quickly become set up and controlled by corporations and political groups set up to take advantage of the opportunity. That is the plan and the reason that Jeb and W both poured money into charters and vouchers.

It is a way to highjack the schools. We need to put a stop to destroying our schools, and get behind a healthy system.

[elleng]

3. "Deregulation," as you call it, is GOOD for education.

Teachers, students, parents, administrators should be free to extemporize; that's how we ALL learn.

[madfloridian]

7. I presented my view and backed it up.

You have every right to present yours.

[EFerrari]

85. Right. We're all going to learn what it's like when you suck education dry

and re-segregate our schools. What a great lesson that'll be. Sort of like cutting off your nose to see what happens to your face.

[Iris]

154. or like having a food supply without enough government oversight.

When will people learn?


There was a move to establish a charter school in my area and one of my neighbors went to the presentation. The presentation given by the company that would run the school was full of grammatical and spelling errors.

[EFerrari]

156. Oh, brother. n/t

[MadHound]

92. Really,

So we should deregulate, and let charter schools hand pick their students. OK, more segregation. What about content, what if you go to a charter school that implements intelligent design and discards evolution. Gotta love that deregulation. Learning disabled kids? Well, instead of mainstreaming them, which has been shown time and again to work wonders, instead these kids get institutionalized in a separate program, just like the "bad ol' days". Not to mention that we'll have charter schools that pay less to their faculty, less for infrastructure, ignore ADA and IDEA, oh yeah, deregulation is sooo good for education.

So it's OK for us to have a two tier system of education, just so long as your kid gets in the top tier, right?

[MattBaggins]

99. Deregulation was the greatest thing to ever happen to the banks

and will clearly save the school system.

[checks-n-balances]

148. Where's your sarcasm emoticon?

Otherwise, you can't be serious!

[Two Americas]

126. learn what?

What exactly would we learn from this?

[mzteris]

14. how much personal

first hand knowledge/experience do you have with Charter Schools?

[madfloridian]

15. Enough to be able to give an opinion.

You know what they say about opinions.....everybody else here has one..:eyes:

There is no reason for me not to have a well-reasoned, well-researched post about it.

[mzteris]

34. oh you can have an opinion - but

I'ma wondering how much hands-on, in person, up-close-and-personal experience you actually have?

See, people keep making comments about Charter schools and homeschooling when they have absolutely NO experience in actually doing or dealing with these institutions, and it's rrreeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllllyyyyyyyyyyy annoying. Especially when they keep "casting asparagus" and they don't have the first clue what they're really talking about.

"Researching" a topic in the abstract is NOT the same thing as actually having experienced a thing, ya know?

[madfloridian]

44. My last ten years of teaching...

I saw kids shoved out of charter, magnet, choice schools because they were not bright enough, smart enough, and did not produce enough.

They came back to us heartbroken and feeling inadequate.

[The Backlash Cometh]

89. I can believe this. Curtis Elementary had some strict rules.

If you could meet their requirements, all was good. But if you couldn't, you were out. No one ever asked what happened to the kids or families who couldn't keep up with their restrictions.

[Maat]

51. I get your point, Mzteris, and appreciate it.

See you over at our homeschooling group (some of go through charter or other schools; some of us don't) - all independent-study/homeschoolers are welcome!

I'm done with reading negative posts about charter schools - it's like talking to a wall.

The fact is ... they are here to stay.

[madfloridian]

55. Yes, they are phasing out public schools.

Charters are here to stay.

[Maat]

64. I doubt the conventional classroom is going away.

So, they'll both be there!

[Hannah Bell]

81. it will, & it will be folks like you who brought on the war of all against all.

the destruction of universal education is proceeding apace by dividing people into little interest groups; once sufficiently divided, the funding is removed, & kids get the education their parents' income supports.

the future of us education = mexico.

[Maat]

113. What an insulting, B.S. reply.

Please inform yourself. The only difference between my daughter's charter school and any other school is who the mid-level managers are. My daughter's charter is a non-profit, and the staff reports to the head of the non-profit (a "principal"), whereas the typical school has a regular principal (no additional titles involved). All report to the school board. All of the schools are open to all students, with a vast array of programs involving total homeschooling to one-, two-, three- and four-day attendance. Some are programs in which the kids attend five days per week.

The money is being used very efficiently, and, as a result, there are many options for all families. Budgets are carefully planned, with the kids benefiting immensely.

Please see Noamnety's post below.

Have a nice day, as I will not be responding to you in the future, as I will not be reading your posts.

[madfloridian]

123. Below you called this thread ignorant. I consider that insulting...very much so.

.

[Maat]

137. Funny, I consider much of what you've said to be insulting.

I didn't call this thread "ignorant;" I merely stated that certain responses reflected ignorance.

[mzteris]

184. you're not only insulting, but - uh -

well, let's just say you seem to know absolutely nothing about the subject other than from an "opinion" POV.

[Luminous Animal]

131. What is the name of that non-profit? (n/t)

[Maat]

136. Many charter schools are non-profits.

My particular charter school's name is irrevelant.

[Luminous Animal]

149. Indeed. Your reluctance to supply

the name of the non-profit corporation that administers your school bars me from an informed opinion.

I hope you are teaching your children better than this.

[Maat]

203. My reluctance has nothing to do with my ability to teach.

As I said before, the name of my particular school is not required to successfully inform oneself about the issue.

Have a nice day; I no longer will be responding to your posts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

361. You are not being asked for the name of the school

You were asked for the name of the non-profit corporation that administers your school. That is not an unreasonable request. There are a handful of corporations running these charters. And each has several charters in many different cities all over the country. WHy are you reluctant to offer the name? :shrug:

[mzteris]

373. not really P2B

Most charters are run locally - not run by "national corporations". Only a very few Charters are run that way. (Approx 1/5 according to one poster on here. lol)

If I told you the name of the non-profit boards that run the two schools my son's attended then you'd "know" where he went to school.

[mzteris]

380. P.S. not that I'd care if YOU knew, but

the GP, well? :shrug:

So, for instance, imagine a Charter School that specializes in - er - Special Ed. A school where you could do all those wonderful innovative things you've always wanted to do but the bureaucracy wouldn't LET you. Imagine that any kid with needs could attend - at NO COST TO THEM! and get the kind of education and services that typically on the rich can afford. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

[proud2BlibKansan]

401. Sorry but I got to go with Mad on this one

We have charters in our district. At least a dozen. And TWO are good. The rest suck money from the public schools while doing a piss poor job of 'educating'. They also don't accept many sped kids. And this time of year they start kicking kids out so they don't have to test them. (Our state tests are in April.) So those kids get bounced back into our district schools just in time to have to take the test but too late for us to prepare them.

I also can't see a charter specializing in sped because that concept excludes too many kids without disabilities.

[mzteris]

423. Why not a charter specializing in sped?

it meets a need not met by a traditional school (well, not as well as you could do it). It's not about "exclusion" it's about meeting the needs of kids who are already being "excluded", you know?

Do you dislike schools for the Deaf? Or for the Blind? Do you think they could do those things in a mainstream school? No.

Don't you think you could do a better job without the bureaucracy? I'm pretty sure you could. Seriously, I think it's a great idea, you should think about it.

As for Charter's "bouncing kids" - huh - well, I don't know about your state's laws regarding Charters, they can only be as good as the law is set up to allow them to be (or in some cases be as bad as the law allows them to be). The ones with which I'm familiar definitely DO NOT do that. Again, don't paint them ALL with the sins of the few. You know as well as I that there is bad and good in every single system out there.

[noamnety]

441. There are charters specializing in kids with disabilities - over 70 of them.

There are at least 20 focused on meeting the needs of kids with autism. CDCH is an example of one: http://www.cdch.org/foundation/index.html

At one of the schools - and this highlights what many of us were saying about schools not being able to pick and chose their students - one of the founders of the school set it up to serve the needs of her son when he was diagnosed as autistic - but he's not enrolled because he didn't win one of the slots in the school's lottery. So he's being home schooled.

[proud2BlibKansan]

446. They need to serve ALL of our kids and not just a few

We need to focus our resources on improving our public schools instead of creating alternatives.

[mzteris]

448. you really don't understand the concept, do you?

I mean - are you just being - I dunno - "loyal" or something? All other things aside, don't you think that a school devoted to the needs of a special needs population would be GOOD FOR THEM? And, then, in the end, good for the community and for all others, too?

I KNOW you have better ideas than what you're allowed to do. I KNOW that you've been bitching the entire time you've been teaching about the absolutely STUPIDITY of the administration and their limited knowledge/experience/(?intelligence? :) ) I KNOW that you could do a better job than what the system has "designed". So why would you be reluctant to reach those kids who keep getting short shrift due to a system of inequality and ineptitude and designed to meet the needs of the "many" - and meet few if any!

Seriously, I KNOW you're "anti-Charter" (and for the life of me, I really really don't understand you guys' logic here, but whatever about that topic) but you must admit that a PROGRAM DESIGNED FOR THOSE KIDS would be a very good THING! Pretend it was your school district doing the designing - don't you think it would be beneficial to all concerned? I don't see how it could NOT be the best education possible for kids who need it.

And again, I point you to deaf/blind schools -should THOSE schools be abolished as well and all of those children mainstreamed?

[proud2BlibKansan]

449. Actually there are a good number of special educators who believe it is not right

to segregate deaf/blind kids into schools that serve only deaf/blind kids. I am not an expert in serving those kids so I don't really have an opinion about those schools but no, I don't think kids should be segregated according to their disabilities. I have spent my career serving mainly kids with LD, MR and ED and I do not think they would have been better served in special schools because they need to be with non disabled peers as much as possible.

Research has consistently supported as much mainstreaming as possible, even for deaf/blind kids. The more time they can spend with non disabled peers the better.

I have consistently complained since the beginning of my career that the people who run our schools don't pay attention to the researchers and experts who know how to run our schools. We learn one thing in college and enter a completely different reality when we join the workforce of employed teachers. It's beyond frustrating.

Finally for the umpteenth time, I oppose charter schools because they take resources from public schools. In my state, charters are only allowed in TWO school districts. How fair is it to take money from kids in other school districts to run an experiment (that is largely failing) in only two districts?

[mzteris]

467. I have consistently complained since

the beginning of my career that the people who run our schools don't pay attention to the researchers and experts who know how to run our schools.

My point exactly, P2BL . . .

Charters don't take money from other districts. . . They get a PORTION of the money that the gov't allots per child, the rest of that portion goes to the school that they would have attended, so in essence, the PS is getting MORE MONEY PER STUDENT to spend . . .

[noamnety]

205. With all due respect, you are out of line here.

Hounding someone to post personal details on a public forum about where their children go to school is inappropriate - and I hope you are teaching your children better than to post their personal details online.

[proud2BlibKansan]

362. With all due respect, go back and read that post again

No one asked for the name of the school.

[mzteris]

187. what does it matter?

They ARE non-profits and transparent AND answerable to the School Board and accountable to educational standards.

What's not to get here?

Charters are able to "DO" things that traditional schools cannot - or won't - do.

[Maat]

204. You are quite correct, Mzteris.

"Charters are able to 'do' things that traditional schools cannot - or won't - do."

I couldn't agree more.

[Hannah Bell]

221. nope, a lot of the "management corps" of the putative not-for-profit charters *are* for profit.

& 10% of charters per se are as well.

[mzteris]

226. source?n/t

[Hannah Bell]

240. For-profit management of public schools takes two general forms:

the management of explicitly public schools by for-profit entities under contract to local school districts, and the operation of public charter schools by for-profit companies, either holding the charter directly or under contract to outside organizations holding those charters.

While there are examples of for-profit firms contracting to manage regular public schools, it is the rise of charter schools and the opportunities they have provided for-profit companies to market their services as charter-school managers that largely appear to be driving the industry's growth.

The exact size of the for-profit, charter-school management industry is not definitively known. The Center for Education Research, Analysis, and Innovation (CERAI) has identified a total of 21 major companies managing 285 schools across the nation. Of those 285 schools, 213 are identified as charter schools operated under contracts with public school districts (Molnar, Morales, Vander Wyst, 2000).

Silber, senior vice president and research analyst for Gerard Klauer Mattison in New York, estimates that for-profit companies manage 15% to 20% of the nation's charter schools (personal communication, February 1, 2001). Silber tracks the activities of Edison Schools and other publicly held education companies, and also watches firms that are considered likely candidates to go public.

The pro-charter Center for Education Reform has counted 2,073 charter schools enrolling 518,609 students nationwide (Center for Education Reform, 2000); based on Silber's estimate, that would put the number of schools run by for-profit companies at between 300 and 400 nationwide.

In one state, Michigan, with an extensive charter school program, for-profit companies operate or hold contracts with 72% of charter schools, evaluators of that state's program report (Horn & Miron, 2000). The evaluators estimate that the for-profit schools account for 80% of charter school enrollment in the state.

The same study, and various news reports, also estimates that 10% of charter schools nationwide have contracts with for-profit school management companies. The precise source of these data points, however, is not clear.

In a widely circulated 1999 forecast, Merrill Lynch predicted that for-profit companies may control as much as 10 % of public funds used for Kindergarten through 12th-grade education within 10 to 15 years (Moe, 1999).

Education Policy Analysis Archives 2001

http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v9n15.html


"Some states allow home schools or distance-learning facilities and for-profit companies to apply for charters, while others prohibit these types of schools. For-profit corporations such as Edison and Tesserac operate about 10 percent of the nation's charter schools and are especially popular in Massachusetts and Arizona."

http://www.ed.gov/pubs/Roadmap/ch1.html. 1998


Additionally, some are supposedly "non-profit," but in fact funnel public money to private management firms:

Ohio Federation of Teachers, AFT, AFL-CIO

(March 27, 2008) By a letter sent to the IRS today, that federal agency is being asked to examine whether charter schools managed by the for-profit corporation White Hat Management, Inc. and its affiliates can be properly registered as 501(c)(3) tax-exempt entities under federal law.

The schools at issue are managed by for-profit entities operating under the name “White Hat” and typically use the brand names “Life Skills Centers” and “Hope Academies.” White Hat affiliates operate charter school chains in Ohio, Arizona and Florida. At least 25 of the Ohio schools claim on reports filed with the Ohio Auditor of State that they have been qualified as tax exempt under Section 501(c)(3). Others claim that they have applied for such status.

The letter and attached documents sent to the IRS provide evidence that these schools are dominated and controlled by the White Hat for-profit entities, and are not qualified for 501(c)(3) status. The documents show that the schools were organized by White Hat to appear as if they comply with state and federal law, but actually operate as “pass throughs,” channeling 95 percent or more of all revenue to White Hat.

“White Hat-managed charter schools in Ohio receive about $84 million annually in taxpayer dollars. But neither Ohio law nor federal tax laws allow a for-profit operator to dominate or control what should be independently governed non-profit entities,” said Mooney.

http://oh.aft.org/index.cfm?action=article&articleID=4f1f04e7-4fa9-464e-992c-8657d6c46322

[mzteris]

278. most of your sources are

grossly out of date. Also, what percentage of charters as a whole are you talking about? Have you done ANY research on the all of the very successful ones out there, or would that spoil your pre-conceived notion?

White Hat IS a non-profit, btw, not only funding 97% of all start-up costs, but 100% of operating costs. Though, it does appear that their financial management could use improvement. I dunno that much about them and not really inclined to go off on a tangent about one organization. One bad apple does not mean the whole system is bad.



One other point, different states/school districts have different regs. From what I understand, Ohio's are particularly bad and NOT indicative of most states.

[Hannah Bell]

291. I gave you three quite legitimate sources, one from 2008.

You give me rationalization & spin.

[mzteris]

296. and two from when?

and they're from where? Maybe you should broaden your parameters a bit.


Rationalization? More like being rational - try it sometime.

[Hannah Bell]

308. 1998, 2001, 2008. Because of the "deregulation" aspect, it's harder to get good national data

on charters -

another red flag.

The 2001 data has ~10% for-profit with an added 10% managed by for-profit cos = 20% essentially for-profit. In at least two states, Michigan & Ohio, *most* charters are for profit.

[mzteris]

310. 10%. Two states. data 10 years old -

yeah it's obvious - ALL Charters are soooooooooooo awful.

[Hannah Bell]

321. 20%, when you add the "privatization at a distance" of management corps.

2009 - 2001 = 8 years.

data on % for-profit co's was national, not for "two states". The two states mentioned were two states where something like 75% of charters are for profit.

your reading/math need work.

[mzteris]

322. nah - since most of what you're posting is

pure biased BS, it doesn't really matter since the numbers aren't indicative of reality anyway.

[Hannah Bell]

337. Let's review the facts, shall we? I made an assertion. You asked for a source.

I gave you 3, quite legitimate ones.

You said they were too old & Ohio was a special case.

I reminded you the sources were 1998, 2001, 2008, & 2001 is not so old.

You made a bunch of new assertions about the data.

I said your assertions were obviously erroneous, per the data, using simple math skills like 2009-2001 = 8 years, not 10.

You now say so what, they're all "biased."


Here's one of them:

Education Policy Analysis Archives
Volume 9 Number 15 April 24, 2001 ISSN 1068-2341
A peer-reviewed scholarly journal
Editor: Gene V Glass, College of Education
Arizona State University


Here's another: US Dept. of Education Publications


Here's another: Ohio Federation of Teachers



You don't like the sources? I can make the same points with others:

Dayton Daily News

Union challenges charter school tax status
By Megan Gildow | Friday, March 28, 2008, 10:46 AM

The Ohio Federation of Teachers has asked the IRS to investigate the tax-exempt status of several charter schools, including Life Skills Center-Middletown, according to a press release from the union.

White Hat Management, an Akron-based for-profit company, is Ohio’s largest charter school operator and runs the Life Skills, Hope Academy and the Ohio Distance and Electronic Learning Academy schools. It also operates community schools in Arizona and Florida...

The union is alleging that the schools turn over 95 percent of their state aid to White Hat, giving the for-profit company control over the school to manage it for higher profits and that the governing boards are not independent of the management companies.



Here. "Charter School News"

http://www.uscharterschools.org/cs/n/view/cs_bmsg/6027

Teachers' Union Asks IRS to Examine Non-profit Status of White Hat Management in Ohio

The Ohio Federation of Teachers has asked the Internal Revenue Service to examine the non-profit status of charter schools managed by White Hat Management. Lisa Zellner of the OFT said that a ruling against the White Hat charter schools would force the company to pay taxes "like the rest of us," and possibly jeopardize their standing, because state law requires all charter schools to be nonprofit.

The OFT complaint states: that "contrary to the impression created by the term 'community schools,' as charter schools are also known, the White Hat schools did not spring from community or parent involvement. Parents and community activists did not create governing authorities that, in turn, chose a management company from a variety of alternative operators.

Instead, documentation suggests that White Hat negotiated with the state about the creation of the schools, set up the separate corporate school entities, and also handpicked the board members, many of whom serve on a number of Hope Academy or Life Skills Centers Boards."




Walmartization of Education.

[mzteris]

341. narrow and outdated.

Yeah. That's what I said. . . .

one note samba anyone?

[Hannah Bell]

345. one note is all you've got.

Fact is, a big chunk of charters are profit-making ventures either up-front or through the subterfuge of "management companies".

You want to deny the fact cause it cuts into your nice story about charters being mostly composed of parents running their own "public" schools with teachers & administrators.

1/5 of charters is a big chunk.

[Hannah Bell]

347. Governor acts to cut funding for schools

For-profit charters a target
By Denise Smith Amos • [e-mail] • March 7, 2009

Gov. Ted Strickland said he wants to take all profit motives out of public education.

He recently proposed forcing out the for-profit education management companies that run nearly a third of Ohio's charter schools.

This is in addition to plans to cut funds for most charter schools by 20 to 22 percent and to lop off 70 percent of virtual-charter-school funds.

Charter schools are public schools run independently of school boards or districts. All are technically nonprofit, but many are run by for-profit companies.

Nearly three-quarters of Ohio's for-profit-run charter schools earned the state's lowest report card ratings last year: "academic watch" or "academic emergency."

And nearly two-thirds of the state's charter high schools failed to graduate half or more of their seniors.

Yet enrollment and funding for charter schools continue their decade-long growth.

Ohio spent $586 million last year on charter schools, including $290 million on schools run by for-profit entities.

In the Cincinnati area, 7,000 attend two dozen charter schools, 10 of which are run by for-profit companies, including Sabis, National Heritage Academies and White Hat.

White Hat Management is Ohio's largest for-profit management company, having received more than $370 million in state payments over the past four years.

According to state data, 27 of White Hat's 31 schools in Ohio were rated "academic watch" or "emergency." none was rated "effective," "excellent" or "excellent with distinction."

For-profit charter schools spend more than double what public schools spend on administrative costs, but 19 percent less on instruction compared to public schools, according to Andy Jewell, researcher for the Ohio Education Association and a public education coalition.

Compared to nonprofit charter operators, for-profit managers spend 68 percent more on administrative costs and 13 percent less on instruction, he said.

"Management company fees ... can be as much as 30 to 40 percent" of school funds, said April Willis, president of Eagle Eye Services, a West Chester company that provides services to charter schools but doesn't manage them...

Charter school proponents say Strickland should not generalize about for-profit charter schools.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090307/NEWS0102/903070346

[mzteris]

349. Ohio is only one state. Please look around. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

400. mmm, i've been looking around & posting links. everytime i do, you say

it's "only one state," it's "biased," it's "too old".

[mzteris]

433. really?

So you've looked at programs all over the country? I must have missed that. I see you referencing only a handful and concentrating on those few "corporate run" entities.

Take a look at the local run, true non-profit ones. Don't kill a working program because some shysters found a way to abuse it. Fix the loopholes, don't destroy what is and can be good for our kids and our communities.

[mzteris]

348. ooooooo - a BIG CHUNK -

1/5 huh? Talk about math . . . lol

How much personal experience have you had with Charters? How much research outside of your own little backyard have you done? Do you know anything at all about well-run systems? Do you really believe that they all suck? Do you really believe that one-size-fits all?

Charters - MOST Charters - the overwhelming MAJORITY of Charters ARE run by parents and local communities and teachers for the benefit of all the children in the community who CHOOSE to attend.

It offers the benefits of a "PRIVATE" school without the associated cost. How is THAT discriminatory and undemocratic?

Just because Ohio's system sucks (seems like a lot of your political system sucks) does NOT mean that Charters, in and of themselves, are BAD.

Please broaden your horizons. Stop generalizing and looking just for the "BAD" to support your cause. I readily admit some Charters shouldn't be in business. But I also recognize that the PS system is broken and needs fixin' and yes, I am doing my part to help that as well.

My very long post outlining MY experience was deleted (because it evidently was too embarassing for some . . . ) in a nutshell

I have had and do have first-hand up-close-and-personal experience with Public Schools, Charter Schools, Homeschooling, and Magnet schools... in more than one state, district, town, etc. . .

[Hannah Bell]

360. Math: 10% up-front for profit + 10% for-profit "management = 20%

20% = 1/5.

20/100 = 5

[mzteris]

366. 1/5 versus 4/5th's . . .

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Hannah Bell]

368. oh, now the math is ok, but 20% *isn't* "a big chunk." i see.

keep shifting the arguments.

i'll leave it to readers to determine whether 20% is significant.

[mzteris]

372. no - I was saying 20% (1/5) ISN"T a "big chunk"

all along - and it's not.

[Hannah Bell]

391. ah, 1 out of 5 in for-profit schools isn't a big chunk? i see.

well, i'll leave it to observers to make up their own minds about it.

also to make up their own minds as to whether that was your original argument.

[mzteris]

424. yeah, it isn't. and yeah, it was.

If you had appropriate reading skills, I'm sure you would've seen that. lol

[Hannah Bell]

451. go & read the first post in the thread, ms "appropriate reading skills, lol".

trust the -------- to go to the personal every time.

i'll let the readers decide whether 20% is a big chunk of for-profit schools. not to mention the "not for profit" CMOs that are privatized.

not to mention that the major charter school organizations are funded by walmart, & the leadership trained by walmart.

i don't doubt that they pay people to do rapid response to critics, either.

[mzteris]

468. broad brush much ?. . .

and as I recall, the personal attacks started from yall's side, chica.

People on DU know me, and you are????? - I'm a mom who has done all the things I've said I've done. I'm not a troll.I'm not a paid operative. Why don't you come visit us in the hs forum? Or do you think we're all just trolls? Really?

You are a piece of work and really not worth my time anymore. You have nothing of substance to say, and nothing to constructive to add to the conversation.

Can you say "ignore" feature?

[Hannah Bell]

219. your daughter's school isn't the only one in the country, but you can't see it.

cause you can't see the bigger picture apart from your own interest.

read my post, don't, i couldn't care less.

people who announce they're putting others on ignore are drama queens. just do it, if you find other perspectives so threatening.

[MattBaggins]

100. They will both be here

good to see you so happy that we will have run down versions of existing systems for the colored folks.

[Maat]

112. What an insulting, B.S. reply.

Please inform yourself. The only difference between my daughter's charter school and any other school is who the mid-level managers are. My daughter's charter is a non-profit, and the staff reports to the head of the non-profit (a "principal"), whereas the typical school has a regular principal (no additional titles involved). All report to the school board. All of the schools are open to all students, with a vast array of programs involving total homeschooling to one-, two-, three- and four-day attendance. Some are programs in which the kids attend five days per week.

The money is being used very efficiently, and, as a result, there are many options for all families. Budgets are carefully planned, with the kids benefiting immensely.

Please see Noamnety's post below.

Have a nice day, as I will not be responding to you in the future, as I will not be reading your posts.

[Hannah Bell]

222. hey, you used the same post twice! form posting, new twist.

[mzteris]

182. for god's sake - CHARTERS ARE

PUBLIC SCHOOLS!!

[madfloridian]

190. No, not entirely.

They really are not.

[mzteris]

199. really? Just how are they "not". . . n/t

[Greyskye]

269. Yes, they are - here are the links to prove it yet again...

OMG. We get it that Florida has problems with what they call charter schools, but how many times do you have to be informed that Florida is not the entire country? I know this is at least the 3rd time I've done so in threads that you've started.

From the California State Web site:

http://www.cde.ca.gov/sp/cs/re/qandasec1mar04.asp

Q.1 What is a charter school?

A charter school is a public school that provides instruction in any combination of grades, kindergarten through grade twelve. Parents, teachers, or community members may initiate a charter petition, which is typically presented to and approved by a local school district governing board. The law also allows, under certain circumstances, for county boards of education and the State Board of Education to be charter authorizing entities.

Specific goals and operating procedures for a charter school are detailed in the agreement between the charter authorizing entity and the charter developer. A charter school is exempted from many of the statutes and regulations that apply to school districts. Students enroll in charter schools on a voluntary basis.


Q.2 Are charter schools part of the public school system?

Yes. Charter schools are under the jurisdiction of the Public School System, as specified in California Education Code (EC) Section 47615.

Jumping up and down with your fingers in your ears proclaiming otherwise doesn't make it so.

[Hannah Bell]

295. Ohio "has problems" too. So does Michigan. So do most states.

Ohio:

The portion of charter school students proficient in math ranged from 23 to 40 percentage points lower than the level of math-proficient students among competing traditional schools. In terms of reading proficiency, charter school students were 15 to 25 percentage points below the competing schools. Charter schools students were also less proficient in science, writing and citizenship in each of the three grade levels.

▫ Proficiency rates for students attending for-profit charter schools were below the overall charter school proficiency levels in 10 of the 15 tests.

▫ Only a single charter school was rated as academically excellent on the 2003-2004 Local Report Card. Forty-six were placed in academic emergency.

Teacher Data

On the whole, charter school teachers are less qualified, lower paid and have larger class sizes than do traditional public school teachers.

▫ Only 31 percent of charter school teachers are highly qualified compared to 93 percent of traditional public school teachers.

▫ Nearly half, 45 percent, of charter school teachers are employed on the basis of a long-term substitute license. Only 2.4 percent of traditional school teachers are so employed.

* Traditional public school teachers are paid an average salary of $48,315. At 29,856, the average salary for a charter school teacher is about 60 percent of the average salary earned by traditional school teachers.

▫ While school districts across Ohio saw an overall increase in class sizes for the first time in eight years during the 2003-2004 school year, charter schools operated by for-profit management companies had class sizes that on average remained ten students larger than traditional public schools.


▫ This year, traditional school districts will receive $3,210 per student in state funding. Charter schools will receive $6,762 per student.

▫ This year, $56 million will be diverted from academically effective and excellent traditional school districts to charter schools.



Who profits from charter schools? Social scientists often subscribe to the principle known as Occam’s razor. Which essentially means that the simplest, most obvious explanation for a phenomenon is also the best explanation until proven inadequate. If charter schools do not perform well academically, if charter schools employ less qualified, lower paid teachers, if charter schools pose a serious drain on education funding, then the only individuals who profit from charter schools are those who profit financially.

As David Brennan, founder of White Hat Management, observed:
“Education is first, last and always a business. If it’s run like a business it can be done profitably.” Brennan, salon.com (May 24, 2000)

“I don’t do things that don’t make money. I just don’t think it’s right.” Brennan, Education Week (May 22, 2002)


Mr. Brennan profits from charter schools. Unfortunately, few others do.

http://www.cps-k12.org/schools/charter/OEABulletin.pdf

[Greyskye]

299. Fine. Fix the problems in THOSE states

Sounds like Ohio, Florida and Michigan are truly messed up.

Fix their problems, instead of putting out the lie that all charter schools everywhere have those same issues.

[Hannah Bell]

306. Some charter schools in all states have problems, just like some regular schools in all states do.

Charter school avocates, rather than fixing problematic public schools, used the problems to justify setting up deregulated schools, siphoning public dollars to fund them, & opening the door to privatization & profit-making.

It's a planned march on the existence of universal publicly funded free education.

Supporters may not be aware of it, but that's what it is.

And just like the gleeful fools who jumped on the deregulation/401K bandwagon, when the whole thing proves out, they'll wind up with both more & less than they bargained for, crying for someone to lock up the crooks & restore their fortunes.

[Greyskye]

313. Yes, I admit it. I'm an ignorant tool.

Yep. I'm an idiot. My wife the teacher is an idiot. Her parents, both retired career public school teachers are idiots. We're all blinded, and are working for the downfall of the public education system.

Never mind that we're all opposed to privatization.

Never mind that my in-laws were School Union members.

Never mind that not once have I stated that I'm against public schools.

Never mind that my wife has spent countless thankless hours as a school board member.

Never mind that you can't be "siphoning public dollars" to charter schools in California when the dollars are are going to a public school by definition.

But since I have first hand knowledge of a Public Charter School system that is NOT for profit, that's NOT religious, that accepts students from the huge waiting list via a lottery system, that IS free to the students, that DOES have accredited teachers, that DOES have a low student/teacher ratio...

...I'm a ignorant dupe.

Nice to know where we stand.

[Hannah Bell]

319. You're focused on one school you like. I'm focused on the destruction

of the right to free, universal public education.


Your story is the same as lots of parents:

I like my kid's school, I'm a good liberal, some of my best friends are teachers/union members, don't bother me with the bigger picture.

[Greyskye]

324. I FREAKING GET THE BIGGER PICTURE!

I get (and have REPEATEDLY stated) that I understand that schools, public, charter, public charter or otherwise are broken around the country.

I can say the same thing about you in reverse. You see that charter schools near you are doing a disservice to the children - and don't bother you with the facts that PUBLIC charter schools elsewhere are doing a good job that should be encouraged.

The charter school model that I am familiar with is free to the public.

In all the times in all the threads that I've stated that I can see the 'anti-charter' point of view, and understand what you are dealing with, I have yet to have the same courtesy returned. And that tells me a lot.

Have a nice day.

[Hannah Bell]

330. They're "broken around the country," eh? That's the bigger picture?

Aren't you the guy who doesn't like broad brushes?


Nope, the bigger picture is the millions & billions Wal-mart, Bill Gates, the DuPonts & other actors are spending to sell you that meme.

Because they "care".

uh-huh.

[Greyskye]

335. You're quite the selective reader

"Broken around the country" is different then "all charter schools are bad".

"Broken around the country" is acknowledging that there are problems in some states in the US.

"All charter schools are bad" (which is the characterization throughout this thread) is broadbrush.

And bringing it closer to home, the charter school system that I'm familiar with has no corporate sponsors.





I won't bother holding my breath for any of y'all to admit that there might be some charters in the country that aren't evil neo-con plots against the public school system. :banghead:

[Hannah Bell]

338. Link me to where someone says "all charter schools are bad."

I think you suffer from the syndrome you decry.

[Greyskye]

355. You want anti-charter broad brush?

Not the exact words, but you knew I was paraphrasing, right?




charters are a scam to skim resources and keep the kiddie riff raff back in the regular schools
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5257631


Overall, there is no reason to spend a penny on charter schools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5263802


Charters (as I understand them) are on the way toward privatization and away from public schools.
We can stop pretending that they're not.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5258282


They are a Middle Step by the Privatizers to Undercut Public Ed Altogether.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5258979


They (charter schools) really are not (public).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5261443


Charter school avocates (sic), rather than fixing problematic public schools, used the problems to justify setting up deregulated schools, siphoning public dollars to fund them, & opening the door to privatization & profit-making.

It's a planned march on the existence of universal publicly funded free education.

Supporters may not be aware of it, but that's what it is.

And just like the gleeful fools who jumped on the deregulation/401K bandwagon, when the whole thing proves out, they'll wind up with both more & less than they bargained for, crying for someone to lock up the crooks & restore their fortunes.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5268072 (hey, wait - that's you!)



These are some truly bizarro statements that *you* made - look pretty broad brush to me...
Did you know *all* public schools are run by the teachers, who tell the principals, administrators, state & feds what to do?

Did you know they purposefully construct classrooms so no one can see in or get in?

Did you know *all* public schools hold parent-teacher conferences where the entire faculty attends one student's conference & gangs up to mock the parents?

Did you know teachers are *never* observed, that they themselves have the power to dictate that policy?

I know it's so, because it happened to a charter school advocate here, & she tells me it happens "everywhere;" the reports she gets on her charter school email list tell her so.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5268476



it's not the regulations, cause charters don't have to follow them.

it must be just that they get government funds.

but the line gets kind of blurred when the funds go to profit-making or religious entities.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5262841 (oh wait, that's *you* again!)



ON ZEUS'S MOTHER, THEY ARE NOT! (public, that is)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5263490



i have no children, i don't want to pay for your kids' school.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5258217 (wait, that's you again. Must be nice to not have a real stake in this debate. :eyes:



Charter schools are a flip of The Finger to public schools
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5258083


Charter schools are a privatization tool, and those who support them are the enemies of public education.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5259762


Charter Schools are Fraud
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5260881

[Hannah Bell]

402. mm, do you understand the distinction between saying "the charter school movement

is funded & founded by corporate interests trying to undermine & privatize public education" & "all charter schools (in regard to the quality of education they provide) are bad"?


The first is a claim having to do with a fairly small & identifiable group of people. It doesn't take much to support the claim, we can look at funders (e.g. walmart), we can look at the history & publications of proponents (e.g. heritage), we can look at statements made on the record. This is not a broad-brush claim.


The second is, & it's ridiculous. I'm sure there are plenty of good charter schools, educationally speaking. Just as there are plenty of good public schools.


Which is why it's irritating to see posters use it to claim public schools are "failing our children" or to see the Detroit system held up like it was representative of public schools generally, or to see wild claims like teachers & administrators are taking money & lying "Everywhere".

Or the crazy claims that teachers are in charge of schools, dictate that they will "never" be observed, have schools built so their classrooms can't be observed, & gang up on parents to make fun of them.

[Hannah Bell]

314. California:

Charter School Fraud in California

State educators are seeking criminal charges against the executives of a charter school operation after an audit found they had misused at least $25.6 million in public education money, including $2.6 million for personal expenses.

The audit found that executives of the now-closed California Charter Academy used public funds to pay for personal watercrafts, travel, health spa visits, Disney-related merchandise and more. Two employees even paid their income taxes with $42,000 in school funds.

From 1999 until it went out of business last year, the California Charter Academy was THE STATE's LARGEST charter school operation, with more than 4,557 students in kindergarten through 12th grade, and more than 7,000 adults enrolled.

http://brockton.massteacher.org/charter_schools/california_csfraud.html



When Charters Close, Public Schools Foot the Bill

Tuesday, Dec. 4, 2007 | Spending scandals brought down Children's Conservation Academy, a City Heights charter school shuttered in 2007, only two years after it opened. A year earlier, A. Phillip Randolph Leadership Academy dissolved, with questions swirling around its finances. Its closure echoed that of Jola Community Charter School, a girls' charter that sunk two months after opening in 2005.

These schools and two other closed charters owe more than $300,000 to San Diego Unified School District in unpaid fees and property taxes. None have repaid the district. School staff doubts they ever will.

Closures also have an emotional cost. Shut-downs are sometimes abrupt, with little advance notice for parents, stranded children, and even teachers, who scramble to find jobs long after most schools have hired. When Randolph Leadership Academy in San Diego dissolved, some graduates found their diplomas had gone void because the school never sought accreditation, said Peter Rivera, program manager in the district's Office of School Choice. Others couldn't retrieve transcripts to prove they had attended.

http://voiceofsandiego.org/articles/2007/12/04/news/01charter120407.txt


Expect Increase Scrutiny of the Federal Charter School Program

Both Senator John McCain and Senator Barack Obama have stated their support for public charter schools...No matter who wins the election, charter schools will receive more attention, if not more money.

...In 2004, ED's CSP report found subrecipient accountability lacking due to uneven and absent data from the States. In 2005, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) reviewed ED's role in charter school accountability and recommended that ED improve its fiscal and programmatic oversight.

In particular, GAO highlighted previous Office of Inspector General (OIG) findings and recommendations that ED more closely monitor the timeliness of receipt of federal funds by charter schools.

In 2006, WestEd assessed the dissemination program in section 5204(f)(6) and found, generally, inadequate data on program implementation and considerable structural challenges to successful program dissemination.

Of all forms of criticism, however, little is as attention grabbing as a bad newspaper headline. A simple Internet search makes the point.

"Two Sentenced in Charter School Scam," Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN), May 25, 2006;

"Ohio Auditor Questions Charter School Oversight," Education Week, July 20, 2006.

"District's Ex-Charter Schools Chief Admits Fraud," Washington Post, August 10, 2007;

"Charter Schools Owe Texas $26M for Overstated Admissions Numbers," The Dallas Morning News, September 9, 2008;

And the list goes on.

[Greyskye]

320. "now closed"

The charter schools that I'm familiar with are accountable to the school districts that they are chartered through. They are held accountable on both the education and financial fronts. The charter is reviewed regularly to ensure that all standards are being upheld.

You can find negative examples in every single industry about anything.

My only beef is the ridiculous wide brush that every charter school across the country is being tarred with. :grr:

[Hannah Bell]

327. How many years were they open? Yes, you can find negative reports about everything.

Tell it to the charter school supporters on this thread using the same broad brush.

Did you know *all* public schools are run by the teachers, who tell the principals, administrators, state & feds what to do?

Did you know they purposefully construct classrooms so no one can see in or get in?

Did you know *all* public schools hold parent-teacher conferences where the entire faculty attends one student's conference & gangs up to mock the parents?

Did you know teachers are *never* observed, that they themselves have the power to dictate that policy?

I know it's so, because it happened to a charter school advocate here, & she tells me it happens "everywhere;" the reports she gets on her charter school email list tell her so.



Tend to your own house.

[Greyskye]

331. I'll tend to my house if you get the hell out of my yard.

How much do you know about charter schools in California?

Because *none* of your supposed email list "facts" are true in this school district.

Your facts are coming second and third hand through an unattributed anonymous source. Next you'll be telling me that you used Wikipedia to source your thesis. :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

342. I'm not in your yard, I'm in DU. The sources linked weren't anonymous.

You're just making stuff up.

The sources are identified.

The reports can easily be verified through other news reports on the web.


The audit of California Charter Academy is linked.


You're just making stuff up. Seems to be a pattern.

[Greyskye]

364. Talk about making stuff up!

"Tend to your own house." Your words to me.

Here is your post that I was replying to. Show me the links whereof you speak:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5257625#5268476

In fact, there is no link, simply this rather bizarre assertion:
"I know it's so, because it happened to a charter school advocate here, & she tells me it happens "everywhere;" the reports she gets on her charter school email list tell her so."

Okayyyyyy...... :eyes: Yeah, you sure backed up that argument! :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

398. Poor reading comprehension.

Here's the succession of posts:

California: Hannah Bell Mar-16-09 03:25 PM #314

I link some information about problems in California.


"now closed" Greyskye Mar-16-09 03:33 PM #320

You tell me the schools are closed now, & there are problems everywhere, why tar charters with the broad brush.


How many years were they open? Yes, you can find negative reports about everything. Hannah Bell Mar-16-09 03:44 PM #327

I say sure, everything has problems, so why do charter supporters use the broad brush on public schools, like the person ON THIS THREAD who said x, y, z. Tend your own garden.


I'll tend to my house if you get the hell out of my yard. Greyskye Mar-16-09 03:51 PM #331

You tell me I've used anonymous sources.


I'm not in your yard, I'm in DU. The sources linked weren't anonymous. Hannah Bell Mar-16-09 04:23 PM #342

I tell you they're not anonymous, referring to post #314


Talk about making stuff up! Greyskye

You tell me i'm making stuff up. Apparently referring to post #327 & failing to comprehend I was referring to comments made by one of the charter school posters ON THIS THREAD.


It seems the mods have been busy deleting posts, the post I referred to is gone, as is a lot of other stuff. Sorry I can't "prove" it to you.

[Greyskye]

371. 2008 California Charter School Results:

http://www.edsource.org/assets/files/CharterSchoolPR_08.pdf

June 19, 2008

Do Charter Schools Perform Better Than Traditional Public Schools?
EdSource Study Says…It Depends
Report Shows That, After Adjusting For Student Background and School Size, Charter
Middle and High Schools Achieve Higher API Scores; Elementary Charters Score Lower
Mountain View, CA— A study released today by EdSource, an independent, not-for-profit
research organization, found that California charter schools statewide outperformed traditional
public schools at the middle and high school levels on the 2007 Growth API, after adjusting for
school size and student demographics. At the elementary level, traditional public schools scored
higher.
In a key difference from recently released studies by other groups reporting on charter school
performance, EdSource’s “California’s Charter Schools: 2008 Performance Update” controlled
for school size and student background. This ensured that achievement differences took into
account charters’ much smaller average size and differences in student demographics such as
parental education levels or English learner status. Controlling for these factors enabled the
EdSource research team to compare schools on more of an “apples to apples” basis.
EdSource evaluated data for every public school in California that had 2006-07 data on
performance, including California’s Academic Performance Index (API), Adequate Yearly
Progress (AYP), California Standards Tests (CST), the California High School Exit Exam
(CAHSEE, for high schools only), and that had a School Characteristics Index (SCI) score — a
total of 383 charter schools and 7,079 traditional public schools.
After applying these controls on a statewide basis, the researchers found several statistically
significant results:
• Charter elementary schools had lower API scores than traditional public
elementary schools primarily because of lower math scores. After adjusting for
school size and student background, charter elementary schools scored an average of
nine points lower on California’s 2007 Growth API than traditional public elementary
schools. This was primarily due to lower scores on the CST in mathematics. However,
when nonclassroom-based charters, such as home-schooling networks and independent
study programs, were excluded from the analysis, EdSource found no statistically
meaningful difference between charter elementary schools’ and their traditional
counterparts’ API scores.
• Charter middle schools showed substantially higher performance than traditional
public middle schools on all measures. After adjusting for school size and student
background, charter middle schools scored 45 points higher on the 2007 Growth API
than traditional public middle schools. AYP and CST scores were also substantially
higher for these charter schools than for traditional schools.
• Charter high schools demonstrated higher overall performance than traditional
public high schools, but math scores were lower in charter high schools. Charter
high schools scored an average of 14 points higher on the 2007 Growth API than
traditional public high schools, after adjusting for school size and student background.
Charter high schools had lower mathematics scores than traditional public high schools;
however, when nonclassroom-based charters, such as independent study programs,
were removed from the analysis, charters scored higher than traditional schools on all
measures.
In 2007, EdSource released a California charter school performance report and found similar
results in charter elementary, middle, and high schools across the state. The 2007 report did not
contain district-level data.
“We’re seeing a trend,” said Brian Edwards, a Senior Policy Analyst at EdSource. “Charter
middle and high schools continue to do well as a group, and we believe their continued success
isn’t a coincidence. These schools are doing something right, and California would be well
served to find out exactly what it is.”
The researchers also found that, in general, schools run by charter management organizations
(CMOs), such as Green Dot Public Schools, Aspire Public Schools, and the Knowledge is
Power Program (KIPP), fared better than non-CMO charters. Performance differentials were
especially large at the middle school level. After adjusting for school size and student
characteristics, CMO middle schools scored an average of 73 points higher on the 2007 Growth
API than non-CMO charters.
CMO-run schools also performed better than traditional public schools at all grade levels. After
adjusting for schools’ size and student characteristics, CMO middle schools scored an average
of 98 points higher on the 2007 Growth API than their traditional public school counterparts.
“CMO-run schools continue to do well and achieve strong results with students facing
substantial challenges,” said Eric Crane, senior research associate at WestEd and co-author of
the report. “Unlike other charters, CMO-run schools fare better than traditional public schools at
every level.”
The study also found that most charters satisfied specific state-mandated performance
requirements as a condition for charter school renewal; however, some charters were renewed
under more ambiguous criteria. Since 2005, Assembly Bill 1137 has required that charter
schools applying for renewal meet specific API targets or the charter-granting agency must
determine that the school’s performance is at least equal to the performance of the schools the
charter students would have otherwise attended. EdSource found that of 164 charter schools
renewed since the performance requirements took effect: 134 met the specific API
requirements, 11 were exempt from state requirements because they were held accountable by
alternative measures, and 19 appear to have been renewed under the “comparable
performance” criterion. It seems no schools were closed permanently because of failure to meet
state benchmarks.
“With the increased presence of charter school options for California students, it’s important
charters are held accountable for meeting state standards,” said Trish Williams, Executive
Director of EdSource. “We need to continue to examine closely which charter schools are doing
well, with what types of students, under what conditions or structures, and using what strategies
or practices. Remember that charter schools are exempt from most school regulations under the
theory that increased school flexibility will generate better academic outcomes for students.
Charters that are meeting this promise to improve student achievement should be viewed as
exemplars, but those that aren’t doing well need to be held accountable for their performance,
including revocation of their charter when appropriate.”
The full text of “California’s Charter Schools: 2008 Performance Update” is available online at
www.EdSource.org.
###
About EdSource
EdSource is an independent, impartial, not-for-profit organization whose sole mission is to
clarify complex education issues and to promote thoughtful decisions about public school
improvement. EdSource does not advocate or lobby and has developed a solid reputation since
1977 as a credible and respected source of information on California’s K-14 education policy
and school reform issues.

[Hannah Bell]

405. Let me tell you why this is not an "independent" study.

First, the study was funded by:

"Reed Hastings, to support independent, impartial research and reporting on California charter school performance and related policy issues."

http://www.edsource.org/about_funders.html

Reed Hastings is a well-known charter school advocate & funder who's had his political run-ins with the California ed system.

"Hastings is active in educational philanthropy and politics<19> and one of the issues Hastings most strongly advocates is charter schools, publicly funded elementary or secondary schools that have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools, in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each school's charter"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Hastings

He's on Microsoft's board, & EdSource is also funded by Gates foundation. Gates is another well-heeled charter school proponent & funder.

So is the Hewlett foundation.

the waltons (walmart) have funded reed hastings' "aspire" charter schools.

p. 6 http://www.educationsector.org/usr_doc/CTDWalton.pdf

The "independent" study you're touting was funded by super-rich proponents of charter schools to create data to steer public policy in their chosen direction.

[Luminous Animal]

407. Not mentioned in the EdSource report is that

many charter schools lose as much as 60% of their students in middle and high schools to public schools. While there has been no comprehensive study done as to the reasons why, cursory studies indicate that students were unable to keep up with the extra course work. This is de facto weeding and will result in higher test scores.

[Hannah Bell]

412. More on Reed Hastings:

"The researchers also found that, in general, schools run by charter management organizations
(CMOs), such as Green Dot Public Schools, Aspire Public Schools, and the Knowledge is
Power Program (KIPP), fared better than non-CMO charters. Performance differentials were
especially large at the middle school level. After adjusting for school size and student
characteristics, CMO middle schools scored an average of 73 points higher on the 2007 Growth
API than non-CMO charters."


"Aspire Public Schools" Reed Hastings, founder.

He funds the study evaluating his own CMO. Nice.

[Hannah Bell]

223. nope, public schools aren't run for profit.

[mzteris]

227. neither are most charters. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

235. 10 percent plus are, however. and some higher percent are run at one remove by profit-making

management companies.

what does "public" mean to you?

it's not the regulations, cause charters don't have to follow them.

it must be just that they get government funds.

but the line gets kind of blurred when the funds go to profit-making or religious entities.

i don't see the clear case for "public" you & your buds keep posting.

[mzteris]

279. Charters must still follow state/district/city school-board

guidelines. And you need to check your "profit-making" accusations. . .

Oh I totally hate religious schools. I think they're an abomination.


Charters are open to all. There is no tuition. I'd say that alone makes it "public". . .


Wiki: Charter schools are elementary or secondary schools in the United States that receive public money but have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each school's charter.<1>

While charter schools provide an alternative to other public schools, they are part of the public education system and are not allowed to charge tuition. Where space at a charter school is limited, admission is frequently allocated by lottery based admissions. Some charter schools provide a curriculum that specializes in a certain field-- e.g. arts, mathematics, etc. Others attempt to provide a better and more efficient general education than nearby public schools.

[Hannah Bell]

420. charters don't have to follow all the regulations. it's their selling point.

some charters are open to all; some aren't.

[mzteris]

430. they still have to meet standards,

they just have different methodologies for getting there.

That is NOT the same as "deregulated", now is it?

edit to add: Please provide an example of "Charters not open to all" . . . is it a targeted group traditionally underserved by traditional schools, by chance?

[Hannah Bell]

450. i've provided plenty of documentation on this thread, only to be told by you it

was old, biased, or a special case. why would i bother again?

charters don't have to meet the same regulations public schools do. that is their supposed selling point. your supporters on this thread admit it & celebrate it. you want to play word games, i'm not interested.

loosening regulations = "deregulation".

[mzteris]

460. forget it, I guess you refuse to read and comprehend anything

that doesn't fit your preconceived notion.

It's not "loosening regulations" - it's slightly different regulations, but still held to the same standard. How is that "looser"?

[Luminous Animal]

253. ON ZEUS'S MOTHER, THEY ARE NOT!

I'm pretty sure I just won that argument with my brilliant use of more caps than my opponent.

[Greyskye]

275. Too bad the facts don't care how many caps you post in.

http://www.cde.ca.gov/sp/cs/re/qandasec1mar04.asp (California Government web page)

Charter schools vary per state. In California, charter schools are absolutely, positively, public.

Here, I'll even copy and paste for you so you don't even have to click the link:

Q.1 What is a charter school?

A charter school is a public school that provides instruction in any combination of grades, kindergarten through grade twelve. Parents, teachers, or community members may initiate a charter petition, which is typically presented to and approved by a local school district governing board. The law also allows, under certain circumstances, for county boards of education and the State Board of Education to be charter authorizing entities.

Specific goals and operating procedures for a charter school are detailed in the agreement between the charter authorizing entity and the charter developer. A charter school is exempted from many of the statutes and regulations that apply to school districts. Students enroll in charter schools on a voluntary basis.

back to top
Q.2 Are charter schools part of the public school system?

Yes. Charter schools are under the jurisdiction of the Public School System, as specified in California Education Code (EC) Section 47615.

[Luminous Animal]

283. Some private management companies

operating public schools in California:

KIPP: http://www.kipp.org/09/schools/list.cfm

ASPIRE: http://www.aspirepublicschools.org/

LEADERSHIP PUBLIC SCHOOLS: http://www.leadps.org/

From the San Francisco Business Times touting how much venture capitalists and business leaders love charter schools: http://www.kipp.org/08/pressdetail.cfm?a=538

[Greyskye]

287. And non/not-for-profit as well.

I'm not familiar with those, so I looked.

KIPP: http://www.kipp.org/01/
KIPP origins

KIPP began in 1994 when two teachers, Mike Feinberg and Dave Levin, launched a fifth-grade public school program in inner-city Houston, TX, after completing their commitment to Teach For America. In 1995, Feinberg remained in Houston to lead KIPP Academy Middle School, and Levin returned home to New York City to establish KIPP Academy in the South Bronx. These two original KIPP Academies became the starting place for a growing network of schools that are transforming the lives of students in under-resourced communities, and redefining the notion of what is possible in public education.

Since their founding, the two original KIPP Academies have sustained track records of high student achievement. While fewer than one in five low-income students attend college nationally, KIPP’s college matriculation rate stands at more than 80 percent for students who complete the eighth grade at KIPP. In 2007, nearly 95 percent of KIPP alumni went on to college-preparatory high schools; collectively, they have earned millions of dollars in scholarships and financial aid since 2000.

Learn more about KIPP’s student achievement by exploring the KIPP school results


KIPP schools

There are currently 66 KIPP public schools in 19 states and the District of Columbia enrolling more than 16,000 students. Across the KIPP network, 65 of the existing 66 schools are charter schools. The majority of KIPP schools (more than 85 percent) are middle schools designed to serve fifth through eighth grade students. The remaining schools include seven high schools, six pre-kindergarten/elementary schools, and one pre-kindergarten through eighth grade school.

Over 90 percent of KIPP students are African American or Hispanic/Latino, and more than 80 percent of KIPP students are eligible for the federal free and reduced-price meals program. Students are accepted regardless of prior academic record, conduct, or socioeconomic background.

Learn more about the unique approach and core philosophies that help to define a KIPP school

KIPP Foundation

In 2000, Doris and Don Fisher, co-founders of Gap Inc., formed a unique partnership with Feinberg and Levin to replicate the success of the two original KIPP Academies through the non-profit KIPP Foundation. The KIPP Foundation focuses its efforts on recruiting, training, and supporting outstanding leaders to open new, locally run KIPP schools in high-need communities. The KIPP Foundation does not manage KIPP schools, but is responsible for supporting and monitoring school quality across the network. Each KIPP school is run independently by a KIPP-trained school leader and local board of directors.

Non-profit, excellent diversity and college attendance records. Sounds pretty good - it sure doesn't match with the stereotypes in the OP.


ASPIRE
http://www.aspirepublicschools.org/?q=faq

Again, a PUBLIC Charter school. Their website isn't as complete as some others, but I sure don't see anything damning. Do you object that they receive private donations?

LEADERSHIP PUBLIC SCHOOLS: http://www.leadps.org/about_us.html

About Us

Leadership Public Schools ("LPS") is a not-for-profit organization founded in 2002 to serve a diverse student body throughout the Bay Area. The LPS network of outstanding public charter high schools are located in Richmond, Oakland, Hayward, and San Jose and serve over 1,400 students.

LPS is led by Dr. Louise Waters and supported by a board of directors and advisory board of experienced educators, business people, and community leaders. Our schools serve ethnically and economically diverse student bodies and are located in or near low-income urban neighborhoods. LPS schools provide a caring and supportive environment in which every student is known and respected by the entire faculty and administration.. High expectations are coupled with strong support, providing students with the motivation and resources to succeed.

Student Profile

* 69% qualify for free/reduced federal lunch
* 83% will be first-generation college students
* 30% are English Language Learners

Student Demographics
66% Hispanic or Latino 17% African American 6% White (Non Hispanic)
8% Asian 3% Pacific Islander 1% America Indian

What an elitist organization! :eyes:

From the last link:

KIPP Bay Area receives 22 percent of its $20 million budget from philanthropy to run seven schools that will serve 1,800 students this fall.

Aspire’s annual budget is $56 million, and most of that comes from government. It only accepts philanthropy to open new schools, and businesses donate up to 15 percent of that money, though Shalvey is starting to see more businesses get involved.

OK, if you don't want this, can you go back in time and make it so that Prop 13 didn't pass here in California a couple decades ago? That reduced our education funding so much that all of our public schools are now underfunded. That would be a big help in getting California out of the financial hole we're in right now. Thanks for the help, we could sure use it!

[Luminous Animal]

406. So you admit that public funds are supporting private organizations

to run schools. And by a quirk by design in the law, those schools are allowed to be labeled as public schools. When the social security privatizers succeed in destroying social security, they'll sell it by defining it as a public program.


By the way, posting PR from a corporation receiving public funds for their livelihood is weak justification for your argument.

[mzteris]

277. you're an embarrassment to the hs'ing community -

please quit telling people you did.

:eyes:

FYI - I WAS YELLING!!! Sometimes people just become outraged at ignorance and hatred, you know?

[Luminous Animal]

409. Given that I have proved that

many, if not most, charters are run by private organizations, who's the embarrassment now?

[mzteris]

429. actually, you haven't . . .

you really need to stop believing your own propaganda. :eyes:

typo

[Luminous Animal]

445. WTF! I've provided links to the private corproations.

that explicitly state that they are running charter schools. Do you think they are lying? And kumbaya over the fact that they are non-profits reveals ignorance. Kaiser is non-profit, too, but still manages to rip off the public to an extra-ordinary extent.

[mzteris]

459. i'ts not many, and it's most definitely not "most. " n/t

[vadawg]

17. Heres the deal, i want the best school for my kids,

thats one of the reasons we moved from the city to the country, much better school. Even if i have to pay for their education i will, they are my priority, your childrens education isnt as important to me as my kids, thats what it all boils down to.

[madfloridian]

21. That is your right.

.

[vadawg]

28. just a thought, what if i want my kids to have a religious schooling

shouldnt i get help or a refund from my property taxes if theres not a public school that fits my needs.

[madfloridian]

30. Come to Florida and my property taxes will pay for your kids to go to religious school.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3408

[vadawg]

35. good, pretty soon im going to have to start looking into schools for my kids

so i would like to find a good school.

[madfloridian]

41. Well, you can use my property tax to send your kids to religious school

even though I don't like the idea. That's just the way it is here. The courts have ruled it unconstitutional, but Florida does it anyway.

[vadawg]

45. Im not trying to start a fight with you just interested in why you object to religious schools

is it just on principle or another reason, personally if we are to have all public education then theres gonna have to be some accommodation made for parents who want a catholic etc etc education for their kids.

[madfloridian]

53. Because I don't think religious schools should be funded with public money.

while public schools are dying out.

I am surprised you think it is okay.

There should be no mixing of religion and public schools.

But the option is there for you in Florida.

[vadawg]

59. why should you be surprised, theres lots of parents who fristance want their kids to have catholic

catholic education, why shouldnt they have the option to send their children to a publicly funded catholic schools, or mormon schools etc, as long as they meet the guidelines etc i dont see a problem with it. Otherwise i would like to see a credit etc if a parent has to send their kids to a private religious school.

[madfloridian]

60. I don't want my tax money going to religious schools, catholic or otherwise.

that is not separation of church and state.

[vadawg]

66. not sure how the church and state thing would come a cropper

especially if the government didnt actually decide the schools, but rather the parents did, i dont see what the problem is with parents deciding what schools their kids should attend and how the schools should be run, isnt a big part of the problem that all the power has been taken away from the local level. PS i dont want my taxes going to the arts but i accept it as part of living in this society, i figure if the taxes went to schools that parents wanted it would be the same.

[Hannah Bell]

80. i have no children, i don't want to pay for your kids' school.

pay for it yourself.

[MadHound]

94. How clear does the Constitution have to be for you?

Church and state are separate. Religious institutions aren't taxed under that rubric, and therefore religious institutions shouldn't receive money under the same rubric. The only reason that we're currently paying government money out to religious institutions is because of the influence of RW fundies and their government sycophants (Bush's funding faith based charities, etc.).

A big part of the problem is the fact that the public has way too much control of what goes on in education. They get to decide how much money the district gets for infrastructure, how much money that teachers get paid, what the curriculum is, what books are bought, etc. etc., on down the line. The school board is composed of ordinary citizens, most of whom have know clue about how education works, what is involved in teaching, what pedagogy is (most are like "peda what?). Many school board members have their own political agendas, many of which are quite radical. Witness the concerted effort by RW fundies to get members on the boards around the country.

Oh, and I suggest that you talk to some professors in college science departments around the country, who are getting a wave of students, raised in religious schools that explicitly don't teach evolution. These students come in ill prepared for the science workload in college, yet wanting to major in scientific areas. These students fail miserably, all due to the fact that evolution is one of the large building blocks in areas like biology, medicine, environmental studies, etc. etc. across the board.

Sorry, but I believe that we need to stick to the Constitution, and keep church and state separate. We've seen the damage that happens when we shred the Constitution, we don't need to shred it anymore.

[bvar22]

103. I have no problem with your kids going to a religious school.....

...as long as YOUR CHURCH pays for it.

[MessiahRp]

132. And while we're at it...

This is my own PERSONAL opinion...

States should not certify diplomas from any Christian Schools that do not at least teach certain curriculum required subjects INCLUDING science. Otherwise we're saying, "sure brainwash your children about religion and ignore basic sciences and yeah we'll let you into a state run University even though you lack any education on a subject that regular students have to take tests on to gain entry".

That's my personal belief.

And no I don't think public money should EVER be used to indoctrinate children to a particular religious point of view. It complete works against the separation of church and state and severely damages the whole freedom of religion value our country is supposed to have since most of the taxpayer money is redirected to Christian churches and not other religious beliefs.

Rp

[MattBaggins]

102. Can you make it so that they only get credit from the parents that send their kids

and only that money or is it ok for them to get some of my money as well? if it's all right with you I don't want my money being used to teach kids that some invisible creature in the sky wanted Columbus to find the new world, so he could kill the savages.

[Fire1]

171. I take offense to that remark.

[Fire1]

170. Mad, public education is not dying out in affluent districts, not

by a long shot.

[Morning Dew]

196. no, there won't have to be an accomodation.

If you want your child to have a religious education, then do so... but you pay for it yourself.

If you don't think the police force is good enough for you, you don't ask for some accomodation so you can have your own personal bodyguard or some such silliness. Likewise, with the fire department.

For the common good, we, as a people, make certain provisions for our citizens. If these aren't adequate for you, you may add to them on your own dime.

[The Backlash Cometh]

91. Private religious school in the Orlando area:

Let's see, a mother of a five year old told me her son was molested by another five year old and when she went to complain and ask for the boy's expulsion, because, apparently, he had done this before to another kid, the reply was that she could leave, instead. It seems that the boy was the child to a powerful family -- Get use to that about Florida. Money talks, especially in private school. Though, this may just be a private school, not a religious one.

But there was a religious, private school where a sports team got carried away and hazed a player, causing brain damage. The mother discovered that the school's lawyer was related to someone in the administration and she got the run-around. She finally had to get a personal lawyer and feels her child got blackballed in other sports opportunities because she fought back. That's the thing about private schools. They have networks into just about everything. It's worse than dealing with the mob. Atleast the mob gives back to the community. That's what they tell me.

[The Backlash Cometh]

90. Something is wrong with that. Seems like it breaks the Constitution

Believe me, there are some schools around where I live which are strictly catering to the GOP. A few years back, I called and got a recording talking about an event that involved Oliver North. I thought to myself, what a clever way to scare off anyone who isn't GOP material.

[Luminous Animal]

52. I rarely drive... I want my money back...

I don't use schools at all. I want my money back. I've never called the fire department. I want my money back.

[vadawg]

62. Okay and that makes sense why, im advocating for public funding for religious schools in the public

sector if parents want it, whats wrong with parents being able to decide what kind of school their child attends. this idea that parents should just accept what we are told is damnright scarey.

[Luminous Animal]

70. Because of the establishment clause in the Constitution...

the government should not be in the business of funding religious education. Even though there is a preponderance of Christians in this country, our government is secular and it serves secular interests. There is nothing stopping parent's from providing religious instruction or a religious education... just not on the government's dime.

[vadawg]

73. okay so what about a tax credit or god forbid vouchers so parents can send their children to

religious schools, if not i can understand people homeschooling or going private.

[Luminous Animal]

77. Tax credit and vouchers

are government funding. Again, running afoul of the establishment clause.

If parent's want to give their children an education outside of a secular government education, then they will have to use their own resources.

Quite simply, our government is secular. It is not in the business to provide religious instruction. It provides a secular education. Those who wish to eschew the secular education that it provides, may access other options. It is no more complicated than that.

[noamnety]

114. That misses the point of public funding of education

when I pay my taxes, it's for the common welfare of the community - schools, firefighters, roads, public transportation, all of that.

I don't get a tax refund because my my house caught fire but I put it out myself.
I don't get a tax refund because I didn't use public transportation.
I don't get a tax refund because I don't have kids and didn't enroll the nonexistent offspring in a public school.
I don't get a tax refund because I went to a private doctor and paid for vaccines instead of using the country health department.
I don't get a tax refund because I work out at home instead of using the fancy community center built by tax payer dollars.
I don't get a tax refund because I watch a baseball game at a family gathering instead of watching a game at the tax-funded city stadium.

Tax dollars for education aren't there to fund your own personal use of the school - they are to fund the system so everyone has access to it as a community resource.

[Sancho]

264. You forgot the post office, military, courts, and roads.....

to single out education as something to avoid paying for makes no sense.

Do you get to customize your fire trucks to put out fires consistent with your choice of building?
Do you make roads narrow because you drive a sports car?
Do you staff health departments with acupuncturists because that's your choice of health care?

Spending public dollars on charter schools is a bad idea. Usually parent advocates are using resources for their own convenience; but many others are privatizing for profit, segregating, and taking resources away from the public mission.

[madfloridian]

63. Heh heh, good points indeed.

No one would ever do that, though. They need those services. :hi:

[amandabeech]

72. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is in your way.

You'll have to overturn solid legal precedent to get a property tax refund on that basis.

With taxes, everybody pays and there is no exemption for any religious reasons.

[MadHound]

93. No, because it benefits everybody to have a well educated populace

Your position reminds me of the assholes around here who came out and defeated a bond issue that would have built a desperately needed middle school, stating that since they didn't have kids, they didn't want to pay anymore. Thus the local middle school/high school combined building continues to burst at the seems, all due to short sighted, money grubbing fools like yourself.

[Iris]

155. bingo. I'd just be happy to have a populace that knows how to use apostrophes correctly.

[noamnety]

281. Local bonds are an example of inequitable solutions

Bond issues are a way to bypass EQUITABLE funding for schools. Richer communities can build better facilities through local taxes, while students in poorer communities get left in the dust.

This is one of the reasons people look to charters in poorer areas - because we see how institutionalized racism/classism promotes inequity - even if the people promoting the bond issues won't admit it.

It's hypocritical to argue that you oppose charters because you support more equitable education - while fighting for that inequitable funding, and calling people assholes if they don't support inequitable funding.

I would support bond issues if the money went into a big pot that was added to the state budget - and then was distributed equitably among ALL students in the state. Would you support that?

[MattBaggins]

101. Can the parents of rejected kids

go to your precious charter school doors and refuse to leave until their kids get accepted in?

[noamnety]

202. Why would they be rejected? (nt)

[MattBaggins]

208. You want to tell me that charter schools

will take a mix of all students that apply? You feel confident that they won't take just the upper half and leave the disadvantaged kids behind? Will charter schools have a requirement to mirror the local community in diversity?

[noamnety]

212. Yep, that sums it up well.

They accept ALL students who are eligible to attend public schools. The only reason we would/could reject your student is if they'd been expelled from a public school and are ineligible to attend ANY public school in our state.

Once a school has reached capacity (you can't physically fit more students in a building than fire codes will allow), new enrollments are handled by a lottery system. If your student is a high achiever, guess what? The lottery system doesn't care. Our school isn't filled to capacity, so we've never had to resort to that. If you want in, you are in. If your parents can't volunteer their time at all, whatever, you are still in. We hope they will at least make it to concerts and recitals. But if they can't, you're still in.

Charter schools have no quota system for race - like ANY public school. Your thinking shows a double standard, unless you are a vocal critic of traditional neighborhood schools because of their segregated demographics.

In our highly segregated area, it would be grounds for grave concern if we required our applicants to be as segregated as the neighborhood our school is in - we strive NOT to mirror our local community in its (lack of) diversity. We're a title one school, by the way, so the level of poverty also doesn't mirror our local community - the kids we serve are significantly poorer than the community we are in.

Elsewhere I posted national stats for charter school demographics compared to traditional neighborhood schools.

[MattBaggins]

215. So your charter school is some kind of testament to fairness

but will we that mirrored across the nation or will some areas get McDonalds while other areas get 4 star schools?

Nice try to play some smoke and mirror antics with the diversity question but I feel that it still stands. If a charter system decides to open it's doors in NYC will there be guarantees in place that ensure there will be schools opened in Harlem?

[noamnety]

216. There already are multiple charter schools in Harlem.

I'm not sure why you think diversity in charter schools is "smoke and mirrors" when we serve a higher percentage of minority students than traditional public schools.

Perhaps you are asking this question of the wrong schools.

[MattBaggins]

218. Where is the publically funded (not charter school supporters) research that proves

the claim that charter schools serve more minority/disadvantaged children?

[noamnety]

224. It's from the department of justice link already cited.

I admire your tenacity in not allowing facts to get in the way of your preconceived notions.

There's a NYT article related to this:

"When state legislators in North Carolina were debating charter schools two years ago, some feared a re-emergence of the white-flight academies that had sprouted in the South a generation earlier in response to school desegregation. So lawmakers threw in a clause requiring the schools to ''reasonably reflect'' the demographics of the school districts they serve.

Today, at least 22 of the state's 60 charter schools appear to violate the diversity clause, according to estimates, but for reasons no one had expected. All but one are more than 85 percent black, populated mostly by children whose parents wanted to flee failing schools and enroll them in small academies that have unusual freedom to pick their own curriculums and staffs, bypassing local bureaucracies."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B01EEDD103CF930A15751C1A96E958260

Now some folks here seem to be outraged because the kids opting into charters are primarily black. My challenge to them is to give an honest answer as to why they think that population is opting out of traditional public schools. Perhaps refusing to acknowledge institutional racism and forcing people to pretend it doesn't exist doesn't actually create a system of equity.

Meanwhile, in our persistent efforts to render racist elements of our system invisible, we never ask why the standard of equity is "reflecting the demographics of the districts they serve" - even when those demographics demonstrate obvious racist patterns.

[MattBaggins]

228. Hey asshole if you don't mind keep your lips tightly pursed if you

fell that sudden urge to sputter out stupid comments about people's tenacity.

If you don't mind I will take a report from Bushes DOJ with the same gigantic grain of salt i use when I hear about a Bush EPA report. Or a Bush WMD report for that matter.

[noamnety]

236. I'll continue to admire your tenacity

as long as you continue to find reasons to reject the statistics on charter school demographics, no matter where they come from.

I get the feeling no source will meet your fluid standards, if the stats don't say what you want to hear. I have yet to see you produce national data from ANY source on student demographics. Why's that?

[MattBaggins]

243. I'm not trying to sell the privatization of our schools

as the best thing since sliced bread. You need to answer my concerns and sell me on the idea. You need to convince me that experimenting with educations of my children is a good idea.

[noamnety]

245. I don't "need" to do anything on demand for you. (nt)

[Hannah Bell]

257. lightweight.

[CaptJasHook]

268. In Portland Public Schools admission is run on a lottery system.

Students apply to up to 3 schools of their choice (including any tax-payer funded charter school). They are put into a lottery system and names are pulled at random. It is a bit of an anxiety producing system, but it is fair.

It still does not address other issues of poverty, like transportation, communication and Parent Teacher Organizations.

[mzteris]

302. absolutely I will tell you that.

Maybe not all charters in every single district/state - I don't know the circumstances of every single one - but I'm here to tell you that the vast majority of which I'm aware of DO operate that way.

And let's face it, "public schools" in affluent communities?? Well, they have their OWN method of discrimination and favoritism, don't they?

[No.23]

78. I've done all three: public, charter and homeschool.

When my daughter was in public school, I was a volunteer in her class. And when she was in a magnet school, I volunteered my time in her class as well. Obviously, I'm now volunteering my time 100% of the time as her homeschooler.

Here's what I noticed from my personal experience.

The parents who voluntarily sent their kids to the magnet school were A LOT more involved in the school's programs and activities. The comparison was night and day.

That, to me, says volumes about one significant difference between the two.

[Maat]

139. Please join us over in the DU Homeschooling Group.

The groups includes both those who homeschool individually and those who go through charter schools (and private schools).

Welcome!

[No.23]

246. Ok.

I'll be happy to do that soon.

Thanks for the invite.

[Maat]

280. Oh, I think that you have to donate a small amount to the site ...

to post on the groups. I'll check out whether or not it is true. It's worth it, though, because we do support each other.

[mzteris]

303. Yeah, funny how those of with experience in ALL

of these areas "know less" than somebody whose only had experience with one of them.

Welcome to DU. Don't let the narrow-minded/ill-informed ones get you down.

[LWolf]

211. We all do.

If you want the best educational opportunity for your kids, start getting active in the efforts to heal the system.

Charter schools further degrade the system and help the right wing's privatization agenda.

They create tiers of opportunity; inequity.

Care enough about all students to refuse to enable that inequity.

[Two Americas]

18. good defense of public education

Thanks for defending public education.

I can't get used to the fact that this is controversial among Democrats, and that people here are defending the right wing agenda on this. Libertarians in "progressive" clothing will be the death of the Democratic party if this trend continues, because their ideas are certain to leave the majority of the people behind, and to cause worsening conditions for the people at the same time.

The public overwhelming rejected Reaganomics, privatization, de-regulation, trickle down and the whole rotten mess in the last election. The libertarians among us may win in the battle for the control of the party, but the people will not support that and will not be fooled about that for very much longer. There is going to be Hell to pay, and the day of reckoning is racing toward us.



....

[madfloridian]

20. I notice that my right to have an opinion is questioned.

I find that very odd.

Nice post. I too feel that it is odd it is controversial among Democrats. :hi:

[sense]

36. No one has questioned your right to have an opinion....

You keep saying that too....

I really don't get it. I must be a slow learner... or not have the magic pen or something.... All these things you accuse others of..... very puzzling.

[Two Americas]

124. yes

I see that, too.

Of course, mention that, and then the next tactic is to suggest you are imagining things. Then we will play the
"accused of accusing" game - "how dare you accuse me of accusing you of not knowing what you are talking about?"

[Greyskye]

270. No, your right to your own FACTS is being questioned

When you keep claiming that charter schools are "not public schools" despite evidence to the contrary, THAT gets questioned.

We get it that charters seem to be messed up in Florida. Why do you paint the entire country with your broad brush? How much do you know about charter schools in states other than Florida? Do you have any idea of how charters work in California, for example?

[Telly Savalas]

22. If a school is nonprofit and taxpayer funded with free tuition,

doesn't that make it fall under the umbrella of "public education"?

[madfloridian]

24. One would think so, but not really.

They call them public schools, but usually they are partnerships with a business or other group. One of our first charter schools here was for SLD children, and I believe Publix partnered with a group of parents. It really did sound like a good idea to get them out of public school, but in the end they were running wild without trained teachers.

There are good charter schools, but they are not under the same rules.

[elleng]

38. Usually they are NOT business partnerships.

The partnership is between admin, teachers, and families.

[Hannah Bell]

82. "For-profit corporations such as Edison... operate about 10% of the nation's charter schools"

"Charter applicants may include local school districts, institutions of higher education, non-profit corporations, and, in some states, for-profit corporations. Wisconsin, California, Michigan, and Arizona allow for-profit corporations to operate charter schools."

"In Michigan, seventy-five per cent of charter schools are run by for-profit companies...At the ten schools run by one company, Charter School Administrative Services, 62 per cent of teachers are uncertified. This same company received 42 million dollars from the state of Michigan last year. This is money that did NOT go to the public schools. And that's just one company, running ten schools. There are 215 charter schools in Michigan."

"Boston-based Advantage Schools Inc., a corporation specializing in for-profit schooling, has contracted to run charter schools in New Jersey, Arizona, and North Carolina.

The Education Development Corporation was planning in the summer of 1997 to manage nine nonsectarian charter schools in Michigan, using cost-cutting measures employed in Christian schools"

"Two of Massachusetts' 15 charter schools (the Lowell and Worcester Charter Schools) are co- operated by for-profit entrepreneur Chris Whittle's company, the Edison Project."


"Between 1998 and 2000 a Boston-based company named Advantage Schools saw its revenue increase from $4 million to approximately $60 million.<4>. Between 1995 and 2000 the Edison Schools' yearly revenues grew from $12 million to $217 million. In 2000 Edison Schools projected that by 2006 it would manage about 423 schools with 260,000 students, giving it revenue of $1.8 billion.<4>"

[Telly Savalas]

67. If the business is making money off it, then it's not nonprofit.

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but in Kansas City, Missouri, the schools were so bad that they lost state accreditation nine years ago and have made minimal progress towards getting it back. Are parents supposed to make their kids pawns in a political game and wait around for a decade in the hopes that an incompetent school board and administration might make incremental improvements?

The charter school my kid goes to is sponsored by a state university. Nobody's making a buck off it.

The KC Public School District has chronic and systemic problems. While there are some good teachers and staff, on the whole it's been failing the children. If you think there are simple reforms that can be made to the KCPSD, then you're welcome to move up here and implement them. In the meantime, I'll send my child to a school where she'll get a good education.

If there weren't charter schools in KCMO, I'd move to the suburbs and put my kid in a public school there.

[MadHound]

95. I've got a suggestion for you

You despise the make up of the current school board, well then, run for it yourself, be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

When you get in there, rework the funding formula in such a way that it will bring in more money.

More money=better schools.

[noamnety]

128. That response is elitest.

You're implying that people living in poverty stricken neighborhoods with corresponding lower quality schools have a moral obligation to keep their students in the underperforming schools unless they have the resources to serve on a school board.

As I am sure you are aware, many of the parents in those neighborhoods are already stretched to their limit either working multiple jobs if they can get them, or don't have the resources lying about to hire babysitters to watch their kids while they go take on additional community responsibilities.

Meanwhile, those in more affluent neighborhoods are allowed to keep their kids in the better schools without having any sort of moral obligations placed on them in return for that privilege.

Those with the least resources are given additional moral and financial responsibilities in order to "earn" the right to an equal education.

That's an example of institutional racism/classism.

[MadHound]

138. So you're stating that it's racist/classist for me to suggest the poster runs for the school board,

Yet you don't find it racist/classist that the is pulling their child out of public school and putting them in charter school. Alrighty then, you have a skewed notion of what is racist/classist.

I fully understand what people in those neighborhoods are going through, having lived in such a neighborhood myself for a number of years. I also know that one of the ways to improve those sorts of neighborhoods is to get involved in the political process. I've seen the benefits of pursuing this solution time and again, better funded schools, cleaner neighborhoods, safer neighborhoods, more caring neighborhoods. All brought to you by people who decided to get involved in our political process. Yet you decry anybody who suggests that people pursue that solution because it is racist/classist? Gee, what do you suggest, that people simply take the shit that they're getting without any response at all? How fucking racist/classist is that?

This person has the money to put their child in charter school, I'm assuming that they have the money to run for school board, at least the seed money to start such a campaign. Now all that is needed is the political talent and the will to run.

I've heard a lot of stupid, ignorant things on these boards, but yours probably takes the cake. Your suggestion that seizing the levers of power, the levers of our democratic process and use them to one's advantage is not racist/classist. It is how things are done in this country, how wrongs are righted, how justice is administered. What, I suppose that you find Obama to be racist/classist since he did the same thing that I suggested, take over the levers of power and use them for good:eyes:

[noamnety]

140. Yes.

I am very clearly stating that I think it is racist/classist to demand that people in poverty stricken areas have an obligation to perform community service in order to get access to the SAME level of education that folks in richer areas get without that additional obligation.

I thought that was clear the first time.

A suggestion to run for a political position - by itself - isn't a problem. The notion that those living in poor areas incur that additional moral obligation if they want equal rights to equal services is upholding institutional racism.

They should have the same right to the same quality of education regardless of where they live. Anyone who argues that they should have to jump through additional hoops to earn equal rights needs to reexamine their notions of equity.

This is a great example of unexamined privilege, I think, where the institutional racism is so accepted that it becomes invisible, and what we think of as equitable, in fact isn't, because we are unable to acknowledge how the system is working out in the real world. So - to be clear - I am not calling you a racist or classist. I am stating that this notion is inherently upholding racism/classism, and in a way that you likely haven't fully examined.

[MadHound]

143. Then I must say this with all sincerity, you're nuggin' futs.

How the hell do you think that the folks in the rich part of town got their issues addressed? Oh, yeah, by running for office.

This isn't institutional racism, because frankly this is how our country works, from the school board all the way up to President. If you don't like what is going on in your neighborhood and if all other methods of addressing the issue are unsuccessful, then you run for office. Geez, how the hell do you think we fought some of the civil rights battles. Sure, civil disobedience got our foot in the door, but then we had to actually go out, run for office, and become the change that we wanted to see. What, you think John Lewis should have not run for office, just because members of his constituency deserved, but didn't have equal access to government programs? You think that was racist? You think that it was racist, my former city councilwoman, to run for office because she saw her constituents not getting their share of city services? Yeah, whatever.

The notion is not racist, nor classist, it is how our country works, has worked, will always worked, and if you think that is racist/classist, then quite frankly you must think that the entire democratic system in this country is racist/classist.

Yes, it would be nice if everything was divided equally, all people got the facilities and services they needed from their government without having to lift a finger, and that might even happen in magical fairy land. The problem is that we live in reality, and the reality of the matter is that if you want to procure the goods and services that you think your community needs, whether you're rich, poor or somewhere in between then you have to go out and get them, nobody is going to hand them to you. If you're going to sit on your ass and kvetch that having to do your civic duty is somehow racist/classist, then you're going to get bypassed and you will get nothing.

[noamnety]

144. This doesn't demonstrate an understanding of institutional racism:

"This isn't institutional racism, because frankly this is how our country works."


----------
This: "How the hell do you think that the folks in the rich part of town got their issues addressed? Oh, yeah, by running for office."

That doesn't reflect reality - where most rich people in fact have not run for office. Nor does it address institutional classism and racism - the reason why more rich people than poor are able to run for office and get elected:

[MadHound]

145. So what is your solution?

Sitting on your ass, carping about how things should be in your magical fairy land, or dealing with reality and going out and actually doing something, namely going out and seizing the levers of power for your own good?

[noamnety]

152. No magic fairy land here.

If I were in magic fairyland, I would believe that the public education system - based on residency - is not inherently racist, classist, and segregated.

Magic fairyland is seeing one district that is 80% black and underfunded for generations, and another district right next door, within easy commuting distance, that is 97% white and well funded for generations, and telling the black kids "you can't come to our white school because you don't live here" and believing that's equitable and nonracist.

Magic fairyland is living through generations of not allowing black people to run for office, not allowing black people to live outside of certain neighborhoods, denying federal housing loans to anyone moving into a mixed neighborhood, job discrimination, exclusion from the best schools, and corporate environmental racism that gave white folks good profits and gave black folks lead poisoning - and then looking at the resulting mess of that and believing that the problems in black communities are caused by poor black folks unwilling to run for public office.

The situation in Detroit was caused by those in power, which was the rich white men, whether they were in public office or in corporations. Trying to flip that around to say that the kids in Detroit have a moral obligation to stay in classrooms that don't even all have electricity until "They" can fix it, when they aren't the ones who broke it in the first place, and they don't have the tax base to fix it because of generational poverty caused by white people, is white/class privilege at its finest.

Actually, white/class privilege at its finest is honestly believing that the reason the middle class/rich white kids have the advantages in education that they have now over inner city black kids is because their parents were more responsible and all were more willing to serve in public office. That's not the history of our country; that's magic fairy land.

"This isn't institutional racism, because frankly this is how our country works." :eyes:

[MadHound]

265. Again, you haven't offered up any other solution than what I proposed

Why not? Oh, that's right, because running for office is how things get done in this country.

I also noticed that now you've made this a strictly race issue, despite the fact there are literally hundreds of rural, mostly white districts, whose schools are in dire shape also.

That's OK, keep doing nothing but kvetching and complaining, we'll do the heavy lifting for you and sully our hands by getting involved in the political process.

[noamnety]

272. Thank you for admitting

that there are schools that are in dire shape, and that this corresponds to the demographics they serve.

Up to now, I think the charter school opponents have been unwilling to admit that the traditional public school system is not equitable.

[MadHound]

276. Again, you have offered up another solution to counter the one I proposed earlier

As far as admitting traditional public school systems aren't equitable, well d'uh, where have you been. Teachers, parents, administrators and other concerned individuals and groups have been complaining about this problem for years and decades, where were you?

So what is your solution to this? Please don't tell me that it is charter schools, you have no idea what you're stepping into if you say that is the solution.

[Hannah Bell]

225. the rich folk run the town. some run for office, some have jobs in the town gov't -

they get what they want by controlling the politics in a network of mutual self-interest.
state & national politics are just a bigger network.

if you're an adult & don't understand that...more education is in order.

as it is, you're being herded into the "solutions" they want for the "problem" they create.

the solution is in their interest more than any of yours.

[elleng]

37. Yes, exactly;

any other suggestion is simply incorrect.

[Two Americas]

125. public education

Public education is such a foundation stone of our national community, such a bulwark of democracy, such a counter balance to wealth and privilege, such an essential component of anything that we could even vaguely call "liberal," that I am surprised that there is any confusion among Democrats about what it is, and about its value.

When you call it "nonprofit and taxpayer funded with free tuition" - although that is of course accurate, and those are features of public education - you are describing it with the language, using the concepts of the "free market" libertarians and Reaganomics defenders.

Public education is an equal chance for all children, regardless of circumstances of birth. Public education is the commitment of people to their community. Public education is the glue that holds communities together. Public education is the great leveler. Public education is the greatest strength of our country.



....

[noamnety]

233. Can we agree that while this is a nice ideal:

"Public education is an equal chance for all children, regardless of circumstances of birth. Public education is the commitment of people to their community. Public education is the glue that holds communities together. Public education is the great leveler."

It doesn't reflect reality?

[Two Americas]

271. yes and no

That depends. If you mean that the ideal has not been reached, then yes, what you say is true.

If you mean that there is something wrong with the ideal, and it is time to abandon or weaken or change it, then I say no.

It is not clear which of those you are saying. "Doesn't reflect reality" could mean either.

...

[elleng]

32. Charter schools ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS,

Unfortunately, opponents bring this red herring to the table.

Everyone must UNDERSTAND the difference between ECONOMIC deregulation and minimizing the burdens of school administration rules in day to day work in classrooms.

'In the United States and in Pennsylvania, the stagflation (high unemployment and high inflation) of the 1970s precipitated a three-decade experiment in economic deregulation. Financial markets, labor markets, and individual industries were all deregulated, and policies that protected vulnerable workers (the unemployed, the low-wage earner, the welfare recipient) were all weakened.

The rationalization for deregulation was that policies and institutions that helped rescue the economy from the Great Depression were now obsolete, part of the problem rather than part of the solution. The promise of deregulation was that it would restore prosperity for all, replacing a high “misery index” (defined as the unemployment rate plus the rate of inflation) with a new era of prosperity.'

http://www.stateofworkingpa.com/SWP08/swp08_failure.html

[Two Americas]

127. what red herring?

Your post makes no sense.

[elleng]

23. I disagree with the assertion that a basis for the charter school movement is/was that

'competition is an essential ingredient in school improvement,' and that 'charters provide that.'

It sounds like a facile formula with little substance behind it. Instead,

'The charter school idea in the United States was originated by Ray Budde,<4> a professor at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and embraced by Albert Shanker, President of the American Federation of Teachers, in 1988 when he called for the reform of the public schools by establishing "charter schools" or "schools of choice". At the time, a few schools (which were not called charter schools but embodied some of their principles) already existed, such as H-B Woodlawn. As originally conceived, the ideal model of a charter school was as a legally and financially autonomous public school (without tuition, religious affiliation, or selective student admissions) that would operate much like a private business – free from many state laws and district regulations, and accountable more for student outcomes rather than for processes or inputs (such as Carnegie Units and teacher certification requirements).'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school

Those who assert that 'competition' was an important element in establishing the charter school movement seem to be confusing this movement with advocates for 'choice' within school districts as a basis to expect that schools will IMPROVE if they have to compete with others. For example,

'Edison Schools was widely hailed at the beginning of the 21st century as the leader in what "school reformers" saw as the promising new privatization trend. Edison claimed that it could run public schools for less money than school districts could, and that it would improve student achievement while making a profit for its shareholders. Edison attracted ideological support from backers of privatization and school vouchers, including the Wall Street Journal<1> and the Hoover Institution. <2>' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison_Schools

This comparison does nothing to clarify the relevant issue (how best to educate), but to confuse (who should OWN education.)

[madfloridian]

27. Edison schools...interesting story about them.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1030-02.htm

"Published on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 by the Toronto Globe & Mail
For-Profit U.S. Schools Sell Off Their Textbooks
by Doug Saunders

Students already have to worry about exams, essay deadlines and staying awake through math class. In Philadelphia, they have a new worry: What if your school becomes a victim of the stock market meltdown?

Facing an educational crisis last year, the city handed 20 of its worst-off high schools, in some of the most abject slums in the country, to a private, for-profit company called Edison Schools Inc. Now, those institutions appear to be going the way of Enron, Tyco and WorldCom.

Edison, a high-flying firm that was the first school-management company traded on a stock exchange, promised to provide computers, books and new curriculums, and to raise test scores. In exchange, the school board would give the company $881 (U.S.) a student.

Then came the crash. Over the summer, Edison's shares slid from the year's high of $21.68 to less than a dollar on the Nasdaq Stock Market. (The company traded yesterday at about 50 cents.)

In the classroom, this has had some bizarre effects.

Days before classes were to begin in September, trucks arrived to take away most of the textbooks, computers, lab supplies and musical instruments the company had provided -- Edison had to sell them off for cash. Many students were left with decades-old books and no equipment."

I have a lot on Edison schools on my other computer, but too late tonight.

[elleng]

40. 'A lot' on Edison schools is not necessary.

People must not be confused between public education and something else.

[madfloridian]

42. I'm not. I just know about Edison>

Not confused at all.

[elleng]

50. You may not be confused about Edison,

but your discussion generally confuses charter and private, which lends itself to a confused dialogue.

[madfloridian]

54. Then many educators are likewise confused. I have more to quote later.

[elleng]

58. Educators and others may indeed be confused; that's life.

.

[madfloridian]

61. Well, glad you are not confused and can keep the rest of us informed

of the error of our ways.

[Iris]

157. how is it a private school? I thought they were hired to run public schools.

[Hannah Bell]

229. Edison runs quite a number of charter schools & receives federal funding for doing so.

For-profit charters are legal in a number of states, & for-profit charter "management" is legal in more.

You're confused if you think "public" is synonymous with not-for-profit, or that public funds aren't being used to produce private profit.

[KamaAina]

357. Ruh-roh, Rorge!

Off-and-on DUer funkybutt is involved with a neighborhood association in NOLA whose charter school is run by, you guessed it, Edison. I tried to warn her about something like this at the time; Edison wasn't exactly a rock of financial stability even before the widespread crash last year. This would be really, really bad, because her neighborhood, Broadmoor, has pretty much served as the model for the burgeoning neighborhood-based rebuilding movement citywide, and has attracted attention from the Bush-Clinton initiative, Harvard, and the city of Portland, Ore., among others. For its neighborhood school to have a "Going Out of Business" sign in its window would just be downright ugly.

[KamaAina]

426. Turns out that article is from 2002

I saw the words "Edison" and "crash" and immediately feared the worst. This is probably one of the articles I found when I started researching them in the first place, so as to tell funk "No! Don't do it!".

You mentioned you had more Edison stuff. Anything a little more current?

[OmahaBlueDog]

43. Charter Schools are the bridge to tax payer funded religous schools

This is an excerpt from a reprinted WSJ article by Wally Reemelin.

<<The NEA’s openly avowed goal today: “To tap the legal, political and
economic powers of the U.S. Congress. We want...sufficiant clout roam the halls of Congress and collect votes to reorder the priorities of the United states of America.” Democratic candidates see only the NEA’s lavish contributions and teams of political organizers. Meanwhile, the NEA fights the voucher system because it will offer real education to the poor and the lower middle class, which cannot afford to take their children out of the jungles of public education and enroll them in private schools. And it has good reason to: The voucher system will break the NEA’s power over public education. That, of course, is what matters to the NEA. And Johnny who cannot read, remains the victim. There is one subject about which the people of this country are much in agreement—America’s public schools are awful.

~snip~

Amid the overwhelming agreement found in the surveys, there remains an
important question: Why has the NEA resisted charter schools and school
choice over the years? It is about power and the agenda rather than education?>>

http://placertaxpayers.org/taxtalkpage3-4.pdf

Then, there are our friends on the Religous right. This from a 2007 Baptist Press article:

<<Despite opposition from much -- if not most -- of their base, leaders of the National Education Association are aggressively advancing the homosexual agenda in public schools.>>

http://www.baptistpress.com/bpnews.asp?id=26127

..and this, from WorldNetDaily.com

<<Since 1988, the National Education Association has maintained the position that "home-schooling programs cannot provide the student with a comprehensive education experience." This, despite the fact that home-schoolers consistently outperform their public school counterparts in standardized tests. The NEA is one of the largest and most powerful unions in the United States. >>

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=13540

My conclusion is that Charter Schools are an appealing means to accomplish the end of breaking the NEA. By "appealing", I mean that it creates the appearance to parents that their children will gain the advantages of a high-performance private school, and will dispense with the frustrating bureaucracy and politics of traditional public schools.

As you, MadFloridian point out, Charters haven't been universal successes (they haven't all been failures, either). North Lauderdale, Florida, for example, has not had the stunning success with their charter schools as say, for example, their wealthier cousins in West Pines.

http://cbs4.com/topstories/Broward.News.North.2.396830.html

<<North Lauderdale Academy High was credited as the nation's first city-run charter high school and Broward County's first charter school to close.

City officials made the decision to shutter it during Spring Break last April. When the school year ended, the high school closed. It was 8 years old. Cause of death: Declining enrollment.

~snip~

Academically, the school struggled. In 2004, it became Broward's only charter school to receive two consecutive F's on the FCAT. The school underwent a makeover, and the next year, it received a C. And another C the year it closed. >>

http://susanohanian.org/show_atrocities.html?id=7034

The root cause of charter school support has nothing to do with choice or achievement or grades. It is simply the notion that conservatives don't want their kids in the same schools as the rest of us. It is the notion that the public schools have become dominated by a liberal agenda .. as the writer quoted the website for " Alliance for Separation of School and State":

<<Compromise is not possible: Some want prayer in school, some want condoms. Printing prayers on condoms satisfies nobody. Communities are split>>

So we will continue to see support for any means of allowing parents to get vouchers (the new twist on the old tuition tax credit concept floated back in the late 70s/early 80s) to get funds and students out of public schools, weaken the NEA, and open the door to vouchers that can eventually be used at religous schools.

[sense]

47. Eveything is a bridge. Let's not put the cart before

the horse so often. Sometimes one thing is just one thing... if it turns out to be different then let's whine.

[OmahaBlueDog]

57. If we put the cart before the horse, we'd have a helluva time crossing the bridge

}(

[madfloridian]

65. LOL

[OmahaBlueDog]

68. On a more serious note...

Here is a ringing endorsement from a few years back from The Heritage Foundation (that should give you pause right there) of charters:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Education/wm622.cfm

Now, here is a really arduous WP interview on the same study that explains why Hoxby's claims are somewhat overstated:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18571-2004Nov2.html

Flash forward to today. Here is an article from the UnionLeader:

<<The study, conducted for the Boston Foundation by Harvard and MIT scholars, found that students in Boston charter schools significantly outperformed their counterparts who were left trapped in the regular Boston public schools. Charter schools are public schools freed from bureaucratic regulations, and in which teachers are not unionized.>>

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?articleId=07afd244-01e9-4ef7-877c-a364dc201e63&headline=Bureaucrats'+bane%3A+Charter+schools+work

..and a far more succinct criticism of the study results.

<<Harvard graduates don't grow on trees. These schools have faculties drawn from the most selective colleges - faculties that are highly atypical of the public school teachers. >>

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/eduwonkette/2009/01/the_boston_pilotcharter_school.html

[madfloridian]

146. And Walmart is the biggest single investor in charter schools. "Replace public schools"

http://normsnotes2.blogspot.com/2009/02/charter-schools-and-attack-on-public.html

"The Walton Family Foundation of Wal-Mart is the single biggest investor in charter schools in the United States, giving $50 million a year to support them.21 The Waltons specialize in giving money to opponents of public education. “Empowering parents to choose among competing schools,” said John Walton, son of Wal-Mart’s founder, “will catalyze improvement across the entire K–12 education system.”22 According to a National Committee for Responsive Philanthropy (NCRP) report, “Some critics argue that it is the beginning of the ‘Wal-Martization’ of education, and a move to for-profit schooling, from which the family could potentially financially benefit. John Walton owned 240,000 shares of Tesseract Group Inc. (formerly known as Education Alternatives Inc.), which is a for-profit company that develops/manages charter and private schools as well as public schools.”23 Wal-Mart is a notorious union-busting firm, famous for keeping its health-care costs down by discouraging unhealthy people from working at its stores, paying extremely low wages with poor benefits, and violating child labor laws. The company has reportedly looted more than $1 billion in economic development subsidies from state and local governments.24 Its so-called philanthropy seems also to be geared to the looting of public treasuries.

As for a coordinated effort, the private incursion into public schools is being pushed by a band of jackals grouped around Bill Gates and the $2 billion that his Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation have sunk into the education “reform” movement. The foundation funded a 2006 study by the New Commission on the Skills of the American Workforce called Tough Choices or Tough Times, “signed by a bipartisan collection of prominent politicians, businesspeople, and urban school superintendents,” which

"called for a series of measures including: (a) replacing public schools with what the report called “contract schools,” which would be charter schools writ large; (b) eliminating nearly all the powers of local school boards—their role would be to write and sign the authorizing agreements for the contract schools; (c) eliminating teacher pensions and slashing health benefits; and (d) forcing all 10th graders to take a high school exit examination based on 12th grade skills, and terminating the education of those who failed (i.e., throwing millions of students out into the streets as they turn 16).25

http://normsnotes2.blogspot.com/2009/02/charter-schools-and-attack-on-public.html

[Luminous Animal]

151. Damn! That is a great article...

I wish I had read it before I spent hours of research to refute noamnety's "6 Myths" propaganda.

[madfloridian]

164. You should post that as a separate post.

Walmart heading the charter school effort.

[Hannah Bell]

230. don't forget that nice bill gates everyone loves so much.

charter schools, genetically engineered food, monsanto partnerships, doomsday seed vaults, he's such a selfless philanthropist.

[madfloridian]

49. Thanks for your post. Revealing.

I have a lot more, but getting late. Very good points. :hi:

[madfloridian]

56. A few years ago, few would have supported taking money from public schools

and putting them in danger.

Now it seems fine.

[elleng]

69. "There you go again."

CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

[Luminous Animal]

76. Some are, some aren't...

educate yourself. Some are publicly funded but with that public funding hire private for-profit and "non-profit" private sector management companies to administrate them. And no matter how many times anyone will say otherwise, charter schools are selective and they will weed out "problem" children and kick them back to traditional public schools because charter schools have a mandate to deliver a specific result and kids who might mess up that result are squeezed out one way or another.

When I interviewed with my daughter at an entirely public funded charter school in San Francisco, I was told that I was required to commit to a specific set of hours per month volunteering and a specific set of personal fund-raising goals (with the implicit message that any short fall would come from my own pocket) in order for my daughter to be considered for admittance. Since I was homeschooling at the time, the level of commitment was well within my reach. My daughter's best friend was attending the school at the time, which is why we interviewed in the first place, and her parent's had no difficulty maintaining the standards of commitment either. That is, until her parent's circumstances changed. They split up and the dad took off. That left only one parent to fill the volunteer hours. Because the mom was now on her own, she started taking on overtime at work and she started to fall short on her volunteer hours; also, she started falling short on her fund-raising requirements. The administration, in their quest to fulfill the requirements of their charter, started hounding the daughter (age 12) to put pressure on her mother. At first they would quietly confront her between classes, then they started pulling her from classes for private meetings at the principals office. (An aside, the mother, during all of this, was in regular communication with the administration asking for more time to stabilize her situation.) Ultimately, what it boiled down to was that the administration was humiliating a 12 year old girl in order to squeeze her out of the school. And they succeeded. She asked her mom to take her out. Funny thing, our daughter was on the waiting list, when they had successfully browbeaten her best friend to leave, we got the call..., "Congratulations! We have an opening!"

Er, thanks but no thanks.

[madmom]

109. BUT.. did they give her a cheese sandwich? Humiliation is humiliation right?

[noamnety]

209. You know this is being done by traditional public schools, right?

"charter schools are selective and they will weed out "problem" children and kick them back to traditional public schools because charter schools have a mandate to deliver a specific result and kids who might mess up that result are squeezed out one way or another."

Under NCLB, traditional public schools have an incentive to push out lower performing students. They do that in a variety of ways. Sometimes the way they do it is to push students out of their schools and into the charter schools. Shocking, eh? :eyes:

"Before NCLB became federal law, New York State was already experimenting with an accountability system based on high-stakes testing. The result is over 160,000 high school age students pushed out of school since 1997, in violation of their legal right to literacy, support, and educational services.

In recent months, Chancellor Klein has acknowledged this scandal and pledged to put an end to push-outs. There is little doubt, however, now that the City is threatened with the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars in NCLB funding if test scores do not improve, that administrators will be under more pressure than ever to push out struggling students."

http://pubadvocate.nyc.gov/policy/speeches_4_14_04.html

"Ivins and Dubose show how Paige assured high test scores at the 10th grade level. In cold blood, he kept 9th graders with lower test scores from entering 10th grade. The result was a large-scale dropout rate of 9th graders and artificially higher scores by the 10th graders who remained. This was a case of “cooking the books” that brings to mind Enron, another Houston enterprise. Still worse, thousands of 15-year-olds were pushed out of school with little hope of ever finding a job. " -- from Houston Public Schools, paraphrased from houston chronicle: http://transitional.pww.org/index.php/article/articleview/5681/

This is not an argument unique to charter schools; it's an argument against NCLB.

[Luminous Animal]

252. Witness what havoc is wrought...

When you pit one school against another. Do you not see the machinations of the Republican agenda in this? NCLB is designed to undermine the public school system. Charter schools are touted as a superior alternative. The corporatists worked for decades to set the "business model" stage to pit parent against parent, school against school, so we are all fighting for the crumbs. The free market manchurians have contrived to bring some liberals on board and, given the negative response on this board towards public education and teachers, I agree with the OP that we are witnessing the destruction of public education.

Deregulation of the public school system will result in the same unmanageable morass that we are witnessing with a deregulated financial market.

We, like the freepers, are unwilling to fight for the institutions that would make us a great Democracy.

[Hannah Bell]

422. A *lot* of liberals on board.

Thinking they're fighting for "freedom" & "choice".

[Hannah Bell]

84. 10% are "for-profit" "public" schools. And more are for-profit sub-rosa:

"By Ohio law, charter schools are nonprofits. But about half the charter schools are managed by for-profit companies which pay the bills and pocket any profits.

For-profit charter school managers took in $291 million in state funds last year, according to an Ohio Education Association study. The biggest charter manager in Ohio, White Hat Management Co. of Akron, received $84 million for its Ohio schools, which include its Life Skills Centers and Riverside Academy in the Cincinnati region."

http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com/2009/01/05/cincy-enquirier-for-profit-charter-schools-money-dont-mix/


"The Enquirier piece has a very nice chart on the righthand sidebar with financial info on the state’s charters.

But those numbers aren’t that easy to come by. And in fact, we know that, when asked, for-profit charter executives like Rod Coker of White Hat Management, outright lie about how much money the companies make.

Well, you say, stop being so hard, Jill - they serve kids no one else will serve.

...So, if only the assertion that that these for-profits actually “served” all the kids was true:

Ohio has about 332 charter schools serving 82,000 students and spending $608 million in state funds. Two-thirds received low ratings last year in state report cards.

Too bad the Republican-majority statehouse, in August 2005, abolished legislative oversight of charters, eh? And I haven’t even mentioned Wilson Willard, the charter school operator who “faces sentencing for using school funds on home improvements.”

[omega minimo]

71. Charter schools are a flip of The Finger to public schools

and public school students. And teach to the test fascists are taking over (see Michele Rhea)

[sense]

74. right.....

I think you've forgotten that bush is gone....

the fascists are gone.. it's a new day.

[omega minimo]

75. the fascists have been using school boards to infiltrate govt for quite a while

what makes you think they're "gone"

[October]

106. That's why this liberal, non-religious family left our public school

It's nuts! Board members, parents, and teachers here all lean to the right!!! Teach to the test, introduce new tests to take earlier in the year to determine what we need to learn for the more important test in March/April. Omg

PSSA test in PA freaks them out, so add the TERRA NOVA in the fall to test for the test! All they do now is test!

I'm supposed to wait for the school board et al to end the politics?

We've had embezzlement, scandal, every day math, etc. for 15 years!

How can I support this mess? It was long ago taken over by republican wannabe politicians.

Our teachers are older, well paid and still miserable. My guess is that most don't like the system either. (I have 2 relatives who teach in PA and NJ.)

We're a union family, but have nothing in common with our conservative teachers in this district.

Charter school saved us. It also allows for my child to pursue his chosen art: ballet.

[sense]

142. My mind was on bush/federal/leadership

I was simply saying that the enabler was gone, that the fascists will have a much harder time getting their way, that there is hope, that we should not all rush to judge so early in the game.

I agree that the schools are broken, the entire system is broken. Absolutely. We were in it, now we home school for academic reasons. Home schooling saved our son and he did recover from the damage public school did. My other son will probably never go to school because it's going to take so long to fix the problems, if that's even possible.

Guess I should quit posting earlier in the day. :-)

[omega minimo]

178. the enablers have been in power for quite some time. It wasn't about W. It's not early in "the game"

[October]

207. sorry

Didn't mean to hijack your response. I got carried away. There is no one answer. We need options. Public schools cannot do it all.

We also home school for academic and lifestyle reasons - via cyber school. We have tremendous support and oversight!

I know many do well in public school, but I am so thankful we have this option!

[omega minimo]

255. we need to follow the public funds

:bounce: :wtf:

[October]

273. OK

Nevermind on edit....

[omega minimo]

176. We already see the effects

this has on local government, student attitudes and aptitudes, young adult communication skills (or lack of) and "if it's not in the script I'm a moron" work force........... we need more decades of that crap not be :scared: sh**less about the world being created for all of us?

Thank you for your story. They are making the choices unavoidable.

[bvar22]

108. the fascists have also been using Corporate Money....

....to infiltrate the Democratic Party for quite a while.
They have been successful.

SEE: Blue Dogs, DLC, New Dems

[omega minimo]

175. aye & corpo "Total Quality Management" euphemistic BS, branding/marketing, bogus numbers, mi$u$e of

[Hannah Bell]

79. the future face of us education = mexico.

[quaker bill]

86. Looking for the magic bullet

We have spent decades looking for the magic bullet that will make education efficient, automatic, and most importantly, cheap. Charters, vouchers, new programs, new administration, new tests and accountabilty measures, have all been offered as means to "improve" the schools. It is all premised on the notion that we are actually spending enough money to obtain better results than what we are observing.

There is no competent and well structured study to indicate that this is the case. The entire movement is based on anectdotal micro-studies that compare a tiny pile of apples to a tiny pile of oranges and then attempt to tease results of national scope from limited and scientifically flawed data. In general the error in measurement swamps the difference in means reducing the "p" number to a level that would be laughably low in virtually any other scientific endeavor. Yet on this sort of sloppy science we base policy, locally, regionally and nationally.

Why do we do this? Because there is an intentional bias toward any answer that rationalizes our failure to properly fund the schools by finding anything or any person or group thereof as responsible for any lack of good results observed. We have reached the defacto conclusion that there simply has to be a cheap way to do this, we simply have not discovered it yet.

The truth, on the other hand is as clear, simple, and easy to find as the kids wandering around your house. Kids benefit from the time and resources spent on them, the more time and resources you spend toward their development, the better the results (within certain but fairly high limits).

Why do kids from higher socio-economic situations do on average and nationwide, consistently better? Because more time and resources are available and are spent on them. Having raised a pair of them, I can state from personal experience that there is no cheap answer to this problem. Having kids is an expensive proposition, there is no other way to obtain good results. Privatization, deregulation, competition, merit pay, high stakes tests, etc... ad nauseum are all tools of rationalization seeking the cheap way out.

When you brought kids into the world, you in fact signed on to an 18 to 22 year mortgage, the payments are steep and can adjust upward at any moment. Attempting to deny this with studies and various BS will never take us anywhere. Sucking it up and paying the bill is the only answer. Personally, I chose to move to a better neighborhood, where they would in fact tax me enough to pay for good schools. We collectively need to stop making excuses, seeking scapegoats, and simply fund the damn schools.

[The Backlash Cometh]

87. MadFloridian: Check to see who is behind the construction of these schools

and you'll understand why they're popular. It's not about their effectiveness, it's about giving the Tallahassee connected good ole boys an easy grasp at public money. Check out their lawyers, too. And you'll find the closest thing to organized crime that we have in Florida. Just an opinion.

Oh, and I think these people have the power to block searches to certain articles in the newspapers. Anyone in the newspaper business ever heard of this practice?

[The Backlash Cometh]

88. There is one Charter School that I participated in that worked.

Curtis Elementary in Clearwater. I think that's what it was called. You could only get in by lottery. It required that a parent or representative of the family attend the PTA meetings, which, I believe, were held once a month. If you missed three in a year, your kid was expelled. Also, every family had to volunteer time.

Now, this was a good school, and it all works. But, I think this kind of school is the exception, not the norm.

[madfloridian]

110. Good point...and who will pay for the school they will be sent back to attend?

If state money keeps on going elsewhere.

You are right, there are several good magnet schools around here. BUT you produce or else. Good idea, but what to do with the ones who don't meet the criteria. They go back to public schools which are more deprived of funding.

A circle.

[The Backlash Cometh]

163. It was a difficult situation to meet their standards.

But, parent involvement is the key to success for kids. How do you do that when both parents are working? I don't know.

[MadHound]

96. Charter schools are another step along the path creating a two tier education system

The higher tier will be made up of magnet, private, charter and other private, private/public partnerships. The schools will siphon money off of public schools and siphon money off of parents. They won't be required to take in all students, and won't be held to the same standards as public schools. These will be the schools of the elites.

Then there will be public schools, which will continue to lambasted as failures, while their money and resources are siphoned off by the top tier schools. The public school system will remain in place to provide a substandard education to those who are disabled, poor, or otherwise not allowed in the top tier schools.

This is inherently un-American, yet it's amazing how many so called liberals and progressives are all in favor of this. What a shame.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

97. There is another tier you're not taking into account. Public schools whose money per child

is higher due to the wealth of the community. When I moved up here a little over 20 years ago, I looked at the SAT scores and per child spending for each district in my county, an affluent county outside of NYC. The school districts in the wealthier areas of the county had higher SAT scores and more money spent on each child per year than the other districts. In wealthier areas 90+% of the students went on to college, whereas in the least wealthy districts that figure was about 70%.

That inequity has to be corrected.

[October]

274. Excellent point

Everyone's attacking charter schools -- and the truth is that there is an ongoing struggle for less affluent communities trying to get funding to match nearby districts.

Talk about two-tiers! At least two!

[nichomachus]

107. Deregulation is wonderful -- over the short term

It shows splendid results in the first months and years. Then, all hell breaks loose. Witness:

Banks

Food production safety

Airlines

All of those boomed when first deregulated . . . not so much today.

[noamnety]

111. I teach in a charter school.

Here are the false assumptions I've seen in this thread and others:

1. Myth: Charter schools compete with public schools.
Reality: Charter schools are public schools.

2. Myth: Public charter schools take away dollars from public neighborhood schools because the kids' funding goes with the kids to the other school.
Reality: The tax dollars remain in the public schools. Therefore, this argument boils down to the belief that a few larger schools (consolidation) are inherently better for the students than more smaller schools. I'm unconvinced that larger schools are automatically better schools. Smaller schools in fact foster a better sense of community. The ideal community size (for any community to run effectively with a personal touch and sense of ownership by the members of it) is somewhere in the neighborhood of 150-250. Many traditional public schools are ten times that size.

3. Myth: Charter schools exist so white kids don't have to go to school with black kids.
Reality: This is not only wrong, it's offensively wrong. I teach at a school in a highly segregated area. What we did (with intent) was locate the school inside a white area (so the white kids' parents aren't "afraid" to send their kids to school in a black impoverished neighborhood), but we put it very close to the black neighborhood near highway access, and we coordinated with that city to establish a public bus schedule based on our hours so the kids from the poorer neighborhoods have easy access to our school. The result is that the traditional public schools - which require kids by law to go to school in their (segregated) neighborhoods - are highly segregated. Our school, on the other hand, has almost an even 50/50 mix. It's one of the few schools kids can OPT to attend that truly is desegregated. Please stop trying to argue that neighborhood schools are desegregated - they aren't. They are segregated by economics and by race. The charter schools allow those boundaries to be crossed, so the "white" schools can't keep out the minority students based on their inability to afford housing in that area.

4. Myth: Charter schools don't have to follow the same regulations as other public schools.
Reality: The only regulation I know of that charter schools have more leeway on is teacher hiring. If a teacher is not certified, they have to be enrolled in a certification program. During the time they are enrolled, their job gets announced as an opening each year, and they have to recompete for it. If they drop out of the certification program, the state requires that they get fired (don't get their contract renewed). If there are other regulations they don't have to follow, please list them here - I see a lot of vague references to "they don't have to follow state law" but danged if I can figure out what those people are referring to. Which regulations are we bypassing exactly?

5: Myth: Charter schools can pick and chose their students.
Reality: No, we cannot. We can't selectively refuse entrance to a student, just like any other public school. Either they are eligible for public school or they aren't. And believe me - principals at other schools are well aware of this and take advantage of it regularly. If they have a student on the verge of being expelled, if they expel that kid, it affects their NCLB ratings. But if they can transfer the trouble-maker/underachiever to a local charter school, their records don't show a failure, it shows a "transfer."

6: Myth: Charter schools are trying to destroy unions.
Reality: Charter school employees at my school tried to join the teacher's unions; they refused to let us in. And then they continue to call us anti-union. FFS. It's like having a child who is begging for vegetables, you refuse to serve them any, and then you go around badmouthing them for being unwilling to eat vegetables.

[Maat]

115. THANK YOU!!

You expressed it so well.

If you don't mind, I'm going to refer people to your reply, and post it in our homeschooling group.

I truly appreciate you laying it out; perhaps those of us involved in charter schools will have to deal with less ignorance.

Again, thank you, and be well! Blessings to you!

[madfloridian]

118. Please do not call my post ignorant. That is uncalled for.

Some of the myths listed as reality are not always reality.

Please do your own research, and don't call someone who disagrees with you ignorant.

[Maat]

141. I wasn't referring to your post.

I was responding to Amnety's post - and complimenting her on her attempt to correct misinformation.

[noamnety]

121. Please feel free to copy it as needed.

I especially am annoyed with the claim that public schools - which restrict enrollment based on residence - are anti-racist. They aren't. They are upholding institutional racism in a very rigid way, and you'd have to be blind not to see that.

Detroit:
82% black
12% white

Nearby St. Clair Shores:
1% black
97% white

Looking at the data, the neighborhood schools are managing to enforce segregation quite well through their existing residence policies, and if desegregation was an honest concern of the people here, they'd go after those laws. But they aren't.

[Maat]

135. Exactly (n/t)!

[lutefisk]

117. Good points...and to repeat: CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS. . . nt

[Luminous Animal]

130. Except when the aren't

as Hannah Bell has pointed out with evidentiary fact of which those who keep yelling "CHARTER SCHOOL ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS" conveniently choose to ignore.

[noamnety]

134. Maybe the problem is the broad brush.

If your complaints are against for profit charter schools, then clarifying that would go a long way toward accurately describing your position.

Heck, I share many of the complaints about for profit charter schools - particularly that they are able to use tax dollars to buy equipment that is then privately owned, or facilities, and then if they shut down, we've all paid to buy their company real estate and other assets. That's not acceptable.

But you have been lumping two separate beasts together and making broad claims that aren't accurate against public nonprofit charters, so you shouldn't be surprised if people call you on that.

[Luminous Animal]

150. There are severe problems with non-profits, as well.

And pro-charter people are the ones making broad claims without providing any specifics about who is running the charters that they are championing. They are withholding information that would enable their counter-parts from making an informed argument forcing the discussion into broad claims.

[Hannah Bell]

260. yep, non-profits can be corupt little fiefdoms, with high salaries & payments to

for-profit contractors run by the principals skimming the funds.

[lutefisk]

158. I'm not "conveniently choosing to ignore" anything. Charter schools are public schools.

I despise Edison and I think business has no place in public education. There is no reason for allowing unlicensed teachers or involving for-profit companies in public charter schools any more than "traditional" schools in a particular school district. The objections used by many to dismiss anything called a charter school should and can be addressed by the states' departments of public instruction in their requirements for charter schools. In my district, the teachers are all licensed and employed by the school district and there is no for-profit involvement. I see many examples of students and families being served in ways that would not happen in the "traditional" school setting.

[Luminous Animal]

159. Saying it does not make it true.

Most charter schools are run by profit and non-profit corporations. That is, private enterprise receives public money to pay for private administration.

Let's make it easy. Administration hired by the district = public employees. Admnistration services contracted to a private supplier = private employees.

[lutefisk]

168. What's with the condescension? It's kind of offensive, really.

"Most charter schools are run by profit and non-profit corporations. That is, private enterprise receives public money to pay for private administration."
In my district, none of the schools are run by profit or non-profit corporations. Out of over 200 public charter schools in my state, I believe there is one run by a for-profit company. There might be a few others, but I don't think so. In any event, this should not be allowed as part of the public school system. Obviously in some states it's the dominant model- and well, it should be stopped.

"Let's make it easy. Administration hired by the district = public employees."
And that is exactly how charter schools work in my district (100% of the time).

"Admnistration services contracted to a private supplier = private employees."
This should not be allowed, in my opinion. Out of over 200 public charter schools in my state, I believe there is one where subcontracting takes place. There might be a few others, but I don't think so.

[noamnety]

177. My experience matches yours.

It's a bit odd to be a public employee and have someone trying to convince me that I'm not. :)

There's no corporation involved in our school, not even if people really really really want to believe that there is.

Ironically, there is more and more corporate sponsorship occurring in traditional public schools, turning our kids into captive audiences for their marketing campaigns: http://www.commercialfreechildhood.org/news/2008/08/state.htm

[Luminous Animal]

181. In your district. Do you even hear what you are saying?

In your district. This is not the case in every district. That is why I said most not all. I also refuse to make a distinction between a for-profit and a non-profit. Many HMOs and insurance companies run as non-profits. This does not mean that they do not make oodles of money. So you claim that your district is 100% public. Of course, I have no way of verifying that.

[MattBaggins]

217. Can I run for the board at a charter school?

Do you have open meetings with the public? Does your budget get examined and voted on by the community? Are you answerable to the local government?

[noamnety]

231. We might still have an opening, I've lost track.

There's not a big election because the district is not drawn in a way that allows for it - at any given point we are pulling students from between 4 to 7 counties, some come from up to an hour away. But members of the community are encouraged to join the school board. I'm not promising it's a rewarding job, though. :D

We have a good mix of people on the board - especially considering we are an art school. We have a few parents of current and graduated students, we have a financial aid specialist (director of financial aid at a local university who also has a BFA in graphics and is a piano player), the current music director for a local traditional public high school (who has served as a curriculum consultant for the same local high school), a lawyer who has cofounded a theatre, a former division head of academic services at a local university who was a professor of education and Executive Board Member for the state association for curriculum development, I could keep going, but the point is, even though I'm not always thrilled with all of their decisions, I can honestly say they are as well or better qualified than any other school board I've seen - they really have exceptional backgrounds which cover multiple diverse needs of the school - budget experts, legal experts, curriculum experts, with a passion for the arts being a common theme.

As for the other questions: We have open meetings with the public, yes. The budget is a matter of public record, of course - that's required of public schools, as you probably know. The budget gets voted on by the school board, not the community - like other public schools. By law, the funding resolutions are open to the public and we put them on our website. And yes, we are answerable to the local, state and federal government as with any public school.

[MattBaggins]

241. Except you have some problems there

with your "as you know" and "like all public schools" comments. Not all states have the same rules such as letting a budget be voted on by only the school board. So is it only parents of students of that school or can anyone in the communities come to the board and have their voices heard or even join the board and influence it? Are the parents of students in this school banned from activity in their local public schools or is it a system that allows one group to have say on both ends while everyone else is shut out from their system?

On another note; has anyone in this school ever heard of the word Science?

[noamnety]

248. Oh good grief.

Yes, the board meetings are open to the public, I've already said that.

What an odd, random question to ask about science. What are your assumptions about science classes within our school?

[MattBaggins]

249. Can anyone join the board?

Not just attend meetings but get on the board, or is it only open to parents with kids in that school?

You also avoided the second part. If a parent has a child in a charter school are they limited only to that schools board or could they be on that and the local public school's board.

You know why I am asking this so don't try to pass it off as some silly question.




The science question was just a light hearted joke in response to the focus of Arts in your description of that school. Don't take that comment seriously.

[noamnety]

250. Two of our board members have had kids in our school.

The others haven't. Sorry, I thought I was clear before that SOME of our board members were also parents of our students - implying that others were not.

I'm not sure about a conflict of interest if board members are allowed to serve on multiple school boards at once - it's not an area I've personally had a reason to look into, or one I especially care about. But we have several board members who are simultaneously current employees of traditional public schools. I do know it would be a conflict of interest for me as a teacher of our school to serve on the board of our school, since I would be voting on things like whether my hours should be cut. (I vote no!)

[Hannah Bell]

232. public schools are profit centers? cause 10% of charters are.

& more than that have for-profit management at one remove.

what does "public" mean?

[madfloridian]

119. They are deregulated public schools.

Some of your points are not reality.

[noamnety]

122. Can you be more specific?

Which regulations are they not following?

[Luminous Animal]

147. Addressing your "myths"

1. Myth: Charter schools compete with public schools.

The right wing, the political ideology most successful in catapulting the propaganda is explicit in it's goal of pitting charter schools against public education.

From the reactionary Hoover Institute...

For competition to fulfill its promise as a reform strategy, traditional public schools must feel challenged. The officials who run the schools and the teachers who helm the classrooms must feel as if their jobs and per-quisites are in jeopardy if they fail to stem enrollment losses to independent charter and private schools.

From the U.S. Department of Justice:

Public charter schools are schools authorized to provide public education with public funds, in competition with regular public schools.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/eag/227383.htm

2. Myth: Public charter schools take away dollars from public neighborhood schools because the kids' funding goes with the kids to the other school.

Public dollars are channeled not only into charter schools but into the pockets of the privately run non-profit and for-profit corporations that administer most of these schools.

3. Myth: Charter schools exist so white kids don't have to go to school with black kids.

This study reveals that racism can be a motivating factor for parents to organize a charter school.

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/4/3/0/6/p143068_index.html

This study (which supports charter schools) reveals that segregation is as much of a problem in charter schools as they are in public schools.
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:rqIpL3ijkpUJ:lpp-uerj.net/olped/documentos/ppcor/0319.pdf+charter+schools+unregulated&cd=32&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

4. Myth: Charter schools don't have to follow the same regulations as other public schools.

Actually, relaxed regulations are one cornerstone of a charters existence. How relaxed those regulations are vary wildly from state to state. Some states allow for un-credentialed teachers, no independent oversight of standardized testing, or curricular oversight.

From the U.S. Department of Justice:

They are required to comply with some but not all regulations for public schools in their state.

A major component of the right wing's charter agenda is deregulation.

Indeed, their operation as substantially unregulated institutions could prove to be a model for deregulation of other, existing public schools.
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=5699

5: Myth: Charter schools can pick and chose their students.

Here is a case where a charter school was legally allowed to bar access to a disabled child.

Avalon charter school can move disabled girl: A judge rules charter schools, with fewer resources than traditional districts, can't be required to provide all the services a severely disabled student may need, even if parents prefer the setting.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-30977762_ITM

Here is a report on a study that shows that, in Florida, charter schools are serving fewer poor and disabled students than public schools.

In 1996, charters served about the same share of these students as regular campuses. Ten years later, they trail conventional schools by 10 percentage points in enrollment of poor children and 3 percentage points in terms of the disabled.

The imbalance is more dramatic at the individual-school level. Two out of three charters taught a smaller share of disabled children last year than the average public school in their home counties, the Orlando Sentinel found.

The same held true for students who qualified for free and reduced-price meals, a traditional measure of poverty. Sixty percent of charters served a smaller portion of these children than their typical district school.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-chday1side2507mar25,0,299161.story

6: Myth: Charter schools are trying to destroy unions.

Bullshit. It is their mandate.

Union busting at NYC Charter Schools?
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2005/11/22/union_busting_at_nyc_charter_s/

One reason unions are more successful in pubic sector organizing is that governments generally refrain from the union busting tactics of the private sectors. Teachers and other public employees have the chance to vote on whether to unionize without the illegal threats and management intimidation that is the staple of private sector organizing campaigns.

But that may be about to change in New York City charter schools, where rightwing foundations are teaming up to bring modern union busting to attack teachers unions in the expanding charter schools around the city.

From Tapped reporting on specific union busting activities at KIPP charters in NY:
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=02&year=2009&base_name=unioncharter_school_showdown_i

Many charter schools, including the KIPP network, were founded specifically in opposition to union work rules. Their managers consider the ability to hire and fire teachers at will the cornerstone of their success. The KIPP schools also require uncommonly long hours, and have experienced higher than usual teacher turnover.

[noamnety]

161. I'm going to break my reply into several posts

because lengthy discussion on a bunch of topics is confusing for me to follow in one post.

1. Myth: Charter schools compete with public schools.

Your response: The right wing, the political ideology most successful in catapulting the propaganda is explicit in it's goal of pitting charter schools against public education.

From the reactionary Hoover Institute...

For competition to fulfill its promise as a reform strategy, traditional public schools must feel challenged. The officials who run the schools and the teachers who helm the classrooms must feel as if their jobs and per-quisites are in jeopardy if they fail to stem enrollment losses to independent charter and private schools.


From the U.S. Department of Justice:
Public charter schools are schools authorized to provide public education with public funds, in competition with regular public schools.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/eag/227383.htm

--------------------
My response: again, public schools are public schools. They aren't competing AGAINST public schools, they ARE public schools. I guess you could argue that any public school competes with other public schools for dollars. Some schools advertise their test scores, their athletics, scholarships, and by doing that it creates a market for people to move into their school district, which generates more revenue for that school at the expense of other public schools. Here's an example of a traditional public school making a deliberate effort to steal away students from other traditional public schools: http://www.educationreport.org/pubs/mer/article.aspx?id=10286 I'm at a loss to see how that's a different sort of competition.

[Luminous Animal]

166. Witness, boys and girls, the power of propaganda.

1. Myth: Charter schools compete with public schools.

From the U.S. Department of Justice:
"Public charter schools are schools authorized to provide public education with public funds, in competition with regular public schools."
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/eag/227383.htm

Do you think that when Cato, Heritage, and Hoover tout the benefits of pitting charter schools against public schools, that they are joking?

FYI, most charter schools are not entirely public. They work within a private/public partnership with a for profit or non-profit corporation. They are also relieved from one extent to another from regulations that giving them a head start competition-wise.

[noamnety]

169. I try to balance the heritage crap with the Woodrow Wilson crap.

(It's good to remember the philosophy behind our traditional public schools as well.)

Within Michigan, according to your second link, state universities have chartered the bulk of the charters here. From your link: "only a few states will grant charters to for-profit companies. Some states even prohibit charter holders from contracting with for-profit companies to obtain comprehensive management services."

While I have philosophical problems with for-profit education, I will point this out - again from your usdoj.gov link: "The prejudice against for-profits is unwarranted by their performance. Charter schools managed by for-profit organizations serve a far higher percentage of poor and minority students than the national average of these students (as do nonprofits). Moreover, when one compares their performance on state assessments with the average statewide performance, "the average gains for the for-profit managers relative to state gains round to 5, 6, and 8 percentage points for one-, two-, and three-year intervals."

(Sidenote - they've just said charters serve a higher percentage of minority students than traditional schools - this doesn't much support the notion that they exist so white families can enroll there without having black students around.)

Regarding the difference between nonprofit public charter schools and traditional public schools, the dept of justice has this to say: "Nonprofit" doesn't mean a firm doesn't make profits. Nonprofit firms do have revenues and costs, and therefore earn profits — but they are required to consume those profits internally rather than distributing them to investors. Government-owned school systems are no different than nonprofit charter schools in that regard."

Any school which has a rainy day fund - which includes the regular public schools in my area - have made a "profit." That doesn't mean it goes into private hands or is lining the pockets of a corporation. I think some people have misunderstood that aspect of public school funding. We try to keep a reserve for emergencies, but the reserves are still public funds.

[Luminous Animal]

173. Yes. In that regard.

Which does not mean that the private non-profit administrators of a charter school do not profit from their contract.

If a private corporation is running a school and getting paid for it, public funds are being redirected from the public sector into the private sector.

It is really not complicated.

[noamnety]

180. And if there is no corporation, no "private" administrators?

Do you still have a problem with it?

We're run like any other public school in the area - we all report to and are administered by the same exact county school district. Our finances are handled in the same way as any other public school in our county. There's no private entity for the funds to be channeled to. So you have no problem with that, right?

[Luminous Animal]

191. Because of the history of propaganda

around the word "charter school", because of the stated goals of the right wing to undermine both public education and teacher's unions with charter schools, I have an issue with its usage in any form. Public services "reformers" take the long view using words like "choice" and "accountability". They propagandize a problem into a crisis which (vioila!) only the private sector can remedy. The very use of the term "charter school" insinuates that our public school system is a failure. You can witness this pattern currently being played out with social security.

[noamnety]

214. I have no problem insinuating

that our public school system is a failure in many respects, although it's successful in others.

It's inequitable, racist, classist, and the best attempts at making it more equitable do nothing to address legacy issues. You can't give one cup of rice to a starving child, one cup of rice to a rich child, and announce they are equal now. May as well be honest about all that.

When we have massive achievement gaps among groups of students, it's hard to argue that it's a huge success.

As others have pointed out, traditional public schools are also at times teaching a curriculum that is oversighted to death, but fundamentally (pun intended) flawed.

[Luminous Animal]

259. And charter schools do nothing to change the

the right wing narrative a failing of the public school system. The success of "charter schools" is to advance propaganda... that anything is better than public schools.

Charter schools have not relieved inequity, or racism, or classism. Nor have they produced increased scholastic "results". By any scholastic measures, the best they've done are equal to public schools.

But on a propaganda scale, its been successful in demonizing teachers, unions, and a government funded social service.

[mzteris]

329. So all Charter schools everywhere

have not "relieved inequity, racism, or classism in their communities?

You have noooooooooooooo idea.

Do you think my son would be bilingual in Spanish in 4th grade in a non-Charter Public School? (And yes, Virginia, Charters ARE Public schools no matter how hard you people try to pretend like they are not!) And his classmates - some of whom began school not speaking English are now bilingual.

My son's school co-shares the school building with a traditional public school - they have basically the same population in terms of race, class, etc - and guess in which school the non-native-English speaking kids are performing better in? And guess which school had better test scores - even on some ofo the "English" tests, even though they only started teaching English literacy THIS YEAR?

We had more representives and higher "finishes" in the spelling bee, Battle ofthe Books, and the Math competition than the traditional PS program. Same building, same base population. Now, you tell me why the Charter kids performed better, eh?

The EDUCATIONAL MODEL IS DIFFERENT!

[Greyskye]

374. California 2008 data shows otherwise:

2008 Charter School Results: http://www.edsource.org/assets/files/CharterSchoolPR_08.pdf


Summary:

Charter elementary schools had lower API scores than traditional public
elementary schools primarily because of lower math scores.
After adjusting for
school size and student background, charter elementary schools scored an average of
nine points lower on California’s 2007 Growth API than traditional public elementary
schools. This was primarily due to lower scores on the CST in mathematics. However,
when nonclassroom-based charters, such as home-schooling networks and independent
study programs, were excluded from the analysis, EdSource found no statistically
meaningful difference between charter elementary schools’ and their traditional
counterparts’ API scores.

Charter middle schools showed substantially higher performance than traditional
public middle schools on all measures.
After adjusting for school size and student
background, charter middle schools scored 45 points higher on the 2007 Growth API
than traditional public middle schools. AYP and CST scores were also substantially
higher for these charter schools than for traditional schools.


Charter high schools demonstrated higher overall performance than traditional
public high schools,
but math scores were lower in charter high schools. Charter
high schools scored an average of 14 points higher on the 2007 Growth API than
traditional public high schools, after adjusting for school size and student background.
Charter high schools had lower mathematics scores than traditional public high schools;
however, when nonclassroom-based charters, such as independent study programs,
were removed from the analysis, charters scored higher than traditional schools on all
measures.

[noamnety]

162. Addressing Myth 2:

2. Myth: Public charter schools take away dollars from public neighborhood schools because the kids' funding goes with the kids to the other school.

Your response: Public dollars are channeled not only into charter schools but into the pockets of the privately run non-profit and for-profit corporations that administer most of these schools.
--------
My response:

I understand how they can get siphoned into for-profit pockets, and I've stated I have problems with for-profit institutions funded by public tax dollars. I don't understand the lining of pockets of the nonprofits - and that may reflect that the charter schools I know are chartered by public institutions. It's wrong to assume all nonprofit chartered schools are chartered by corporations. My school is chartered by a public county intermediate school district (ISD) - which handles our finances just the same as they do all the other public schools in their country. We're in their health plan and retirement plan, they do our paychecks, it's all part of the same higher level district administration.

I think you've made a valid argument for not allowing corporations to run charter schools - but not an argument against the existence of them in and of itself.

[Luminous Animal]

167. Non-profits line their own pockets.

And their is little evidence of any accountability in regards as to what they do with the public money given them. We all live in a fantasy that non-profits are always the good guys. This is simply not true. Witness, the relatives of our legislatures who run non-profits at a very good salary with government money flowing into them.

Some non-profits are simply patronage schemes.

[Maat]

206. Plus, incorporation in itself is not bad.

Public schools are shielded by the government from liability statutorily; so, any entity not so statutorily shielded usually incorporates to shield personal parties from getting sued if a kid trips on the grass.

Most non-profits are incorporated, because they do not otherwise have statutory protection.

The teachers' association is incorporated.

The California Democratic Party is incorporated.

All incorporation does is help the entity with liability, so that certain persons are liable when someone falls on the steps. It helps the entity in question get liability insurance (most insurance companies will not issue policies unless you are incorporated).

Like NoAmnety has said, if the entity is a non-profit, no one's pockets are lined; and, the accountability to the district is the same. My daughter takes the same annual tests, etc., etc.

[noamnety]

165. Addressing Myth 3:

3. Myth: Charter schools exist so white kids don't have to go to school with black kids.

Your response:

This study reveals that racism can be a motivating factor for parents to organize a charter school.

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_cita...

This study (which supports charter schools) reveals that segregation is as much of a problem in charter schools as they are in public schools.
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:rqIpL3ijkpUJ:lpp-u...

---------
My response: I read the first link, and did not see anything conclusive there. Specifically, I saw that three other factors were listed as higher ranking than race. "Regressions suggest that all four factors – teacher dissatisfaction, energetic parents, school quality and racism – influence charter enrollments, though teacher dissatisfaction has the greatest explanatory power while racism has the least."

And then this "Finally, the dummy variable for districts with percentages of white students between 30 and 60% is also positive and statistically significant at the 10% but not 5% level, suggesting that in districts with large but not overwhelming presence of minority students, parents will more likely exit to charters. ... The exiting parents may well be white---though we do not have specific data on this---thus suggesting that racism plays a role." If they don't have any data on whether the parents who left were mainly white or mainly minority, that's not the strongest study to present to make your case.

A larger unaddressed issue is one of those bits of information that is rendered invisible by the system - which is that racism plays a large part (perhaps larger?) in residential public school enrollment. The reason the Detroit schools don't have a higher white enrollment is that racism played a role in white flight. White people don't generally move to neighborhoods that are above a certain percentage nonwhite. We don't consider enrollment in traditional schools to be based on racism - heck, we all know it's just based on your address, based on where you happen to live, right? How could that be racist? But let's not kid ourselves that that input is random and independent of racism. White people don't randomly "happen" to live in white areas, while black people "happen" to live in black areas. There's a history behind that.

[Luminous Animal]

172. Ha!

I knew that you were going to mitigate the fact that racism is a factor merely because racism was the least.

Here's the results of more in depth study that indicates racism is a factor.

" As the findings of the previous three generations on white flight seem to be
robust, we continue to find similar results for charter schools as a white flight option.
Table 2 clearly shows that the degree to which school districts are segregated decreases
the percent of white students in local charter schools. That is, with a unit increase in
segregation there is almost a 37 percent decrease the percent of white students attending
the charter school. Put another way, the white enrollment goes up when school districts
are more integrated or when whites are attending schools with non-whites. Although whites are “under-enrolled in both magnet and charter schools” (Orfield et al. 2003: 18), we see that when whites do enroll in charter schools they are doing so in light of their integrated school districts."

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/7/6/7/pages107679/p107679-18.php

[noamnety]

183. 2 points

sorry for the repetition here, but it wasn't addressed in your post:

1. Charter schools enroll a disproportionately higher rate of minority students. They are disproportionately serving a minority population. That's right in your quote: "whites are under-enrolled in both magnet and charter schools."

2. Do some white kids probably enroll in public charter schools because of racism? Sure, I'd be surprised if they didn't. Folks are like that. But this doesn't address a key point I made about traditional public schools: NEWSFLASH: Many white kids are enrolled in their neighborhood schools because they moved to an area where black people don't live - this also is because of racism.

Are you going to deny that traditional public schools are highly segregated because of racism, because white people don't want their kids going to school with impoverished primarily minority students?

You have a double standard if you are only going to look to racism as a cause for segregation in charters, and you are unwilling to examine or acknowledge it in the traditional public school system.

[noamnety]

174. Addressing Myth 4

4. Myth: Charter schools don't have to follow the same regulations as other public schools.

your response:
Actually, relaxed regulations are one cornerstone of a charters existence. How relaxed those regulations are vary wildly from state to state. Some states allow for un-credentialed teachers, no independent oversight of standardized testing, or curricular oversight.

From the U.S. Department of Justice:
They are required to comply with some but not all regulations for public schools in their state.


A major component of the right wing's charter agenda is deregulation.

Indeed, their operation as substantially unregulated institutions could prove to be a model for deregulation of other, existing public schools.
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=5699

--------
my response:

I looked at the link you posted, and didn't see a list of regulations charters don't have to follow.

Here's a chart of teacher certification requirements by state for charter schools - you can see almost all states require certification. http://mb2.ecs.org/reports/Report.aspx?id=93

In some cases you can get waivers or vocational certifications, which is true in traditional public schools as well.

I don't understand your statement about independent oversight of standardized testing - can you explain what you mean there?

Curricular oversight - we have to teach to the same standards and benchmarks as any other school, and the standardized tests cover the same material in those benchmarks. What exactly are you advocating for here?

[noamnety]

201. Addressing myth 5:

5: Myth: Charter schools can pick and chose their students.

Your response:

Here is a case where a charter school was legally allowed to bar access to a disabled child.

Avalon charter school can move disabled girl: A judge rules charter schools, with fewer resources than traditional districts, can't be required to provide all the services a severely disabled student may need, even if parents prefer the setting.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-30977...

-----
My response: This isn't unique to charter schools. Similar lawsuits exist in traditional schools as well: http://www.gscschools.org/gsc/Announcements/%27State%20sued%20on%20special%20ed%20student%20separation%27.html/_top

This is an argument for or against mainstreaming disabled students and the definition of least restrictive environment, and the argument lives on in ALL public schools.

If you are eligible to enroll in a public school, you are eligible to enroll in a public charter school - there is no grade/attendance requirements beyond what any public school can legally apply.

*****************
You: Here is a report on a study that shows that, in Florida, charter schools are serving fewer poor and disabled students than public schools. ...


-------
My Response: You've chosen to focus on one state.

Nationwide, charters:

* Generally have a similar racial/ethnic distribution as all public schools
* In several states (Michigan, Minnesota, Texas, and Wisconsin) have a higher proportion of schools predominately serving students of color
* Are similar to their districts on student racial/ethnic and income- level characteristics, but a third are more likely to serve students of color and lower-income students
* Serve about the same percentage of LEP students as other public schools (12.7 percent for charter schools, compared to 11.5 percent for public schools**)
* Serve a smaller percentage of students with disabilities than public schools (8 percent for charter schools, compared to 11 percent for public schools**)
* Serve slightly fewer students eligible for free and reduced lunch than public schools (36 percent for charter schools, compared to 40 percent for public schools**)

http://www.nwrel.org/cnorse/booklets/charter/3.html

[Fire1]

179. Sorry, #1, is wrong. All charters ARE NOT PUBLIC.

[noamnety]

186. Valid point - I'm only speaking to public charters here.

Equally wrong: the folks who keep referring to charters as private.

I've addressed that distinction in several of my posts, but I should keep adding the disclaimer/distinction I guess in all my posts.

[Luminous Animal]

194. Yes, but you completely leave out

public charters that are administered by private non-profits. By the way, Edison, a private for profit corp. ran a public school here in San Francisco. Private for profit corporations are running public schools all over this country.

[noamnety]

195. I already stated I have problems with those. (nt)

[LWolf]

120. Charter schools are a privatization tool,

and those who support them are the enemies of public education.

In THIS educator's opinion.

[EFerrari]

185. May I ask you a stupid question? Are charter schools

basically a government contract to a private company and a non-union shop? I don't think I was ever clear on how they work. :blush:

[noamnety]

188. It depends on the school.

In my case, no, there's no private company involved at all. Everyone involved is a public employee, and the finances are handled by public employees who are up one level in the district hierarchy. They handle the administration and oversight for a number of traditional city districts and us. Our state reporting for NCLB goes through the county education department just like any other school.

The teachers are public employees who have met with teacher union officials on several occasions to find out how we can join, the administration is aware of this and - while they weren't thrilled about that, they certainly weren't doing anything that even bordered on union busting.

Unfortunately the teacher's unions rejected us, they won't let us join. It's my first experience where the managers were more open to letting us unionize than the union itself.

[EFerrari]

189. What were the grounds? n/t

[noamnety]

192. Good old-fashioned catch-22

They don't want charter school employees in their union because we are anti-union (because charter schools don't belong to unions).

[MattBaggins]

220. That is a perfectly sensible reason to deny you

You have one hand extended in friendship to the union while the knife is hidden behind your back in the other hand. How do they know your group isn't just going in to bust them from within?

[noamnety]

238. Oh no! You've stumbled upon our secret Agenda!

Pay hundreds of dollars in our personal salaries to a union so we can work behind the scenes to get rid of our health care, pensions, and weekends off!

We were gonna do that right after we wrecked all straight marriages. So many Agendas, so little time.

[MattBaggins]

242. I am only suggesting what they might see

I would hope that as a DUer you would never entertain such a thought; but even you have to admit there are enough stupid freeper types so drunk on the anti-union kool-aid, that they would vote in such a stupid manner.

[LWolf]

198. They CAN be.

First, you have to realize that charter schools, like everything else to do with education except for NCLB, are different in every state.

So charter schools in one state may be formed, and operated, differently than in another.

Basically, a group forms a charter, approaches the local district, and, if the local district approves the charter, they are in business.

They have to follow SOME laws and regulations. They are non-union. They can be private, for-profit organizations, like the Edison schools. They can be non-profit. They can be organized by religious groups. They can be organized by business groups.

Their charter is approved by the district they will operate in. They will have to submit a budget.

If the district sees problems happening, they can revoke the charter, or not renew the charter when it expires.

Because of the limited regulation and oversight, charter schools can be great, or they can be awful. Awful schools will eventually lose their charters.

There can also be a blurring of the separation clause, when a charter is not a "religious school" per se, but organized by a religious group including religious studies.

Of course, as an educator, I want teachers to be fully licensed. In some states, charter schools must hire credentialed teachers. In others, they don't.

I also want it to be union. That protects my profession.

The real bottom line, though, is that charter schools operate with freedoms that the rest of us don't get.

They can limit enrollment.
They can exit students who don't "fit."
Their calendars, schedules, texts, etc. are not standardized. They have the freedom to try many different things that we don't.
By their nature, they tend to attract parents who will be more active and involved, which is great. That also affects achievement.

When a charter school appears to show higher achievement, you can be sure that it's not just a different text, a different methodology, or vision. It's also the limited enrollment, and the ability to self-select students who are more likely to achieve.

I'd like to see ALL public schools be given more freedom to offer choices within a district, with district oversight. That would offer safeguards, and would offer families multiple choices to find the right "fit." As long as those opportunities are only offered to a few OUTSIDE the regular system, we've got inequity.

[EFerrari]

200. Thank you so much.

:hi:

[No.23]

261. Self-deleted.

[sendittozoom]

129. Yes, but...

parochial schools are always cited as places where the average annual cost is lower than even the lowest-funded public schools and the reasons are very simple: mandatory parental involvement and the freedom to kick kids to the curb who won't cooperate. I have absolutely no qualms about putting those caveats into public schools. Do you know how many disruptive kids (who most likely are emotionally disturbed) wreak havoc on classrooms and teachers? The amount of time needed to give extra discipline/attention to them? Even when they get expelled, it is possible for them to come back. There was a recent case in my state where two 11-year-olds sexually assaulted a fellow student and were allowed to come back! Outrageous!

[noamnety]

133. Not feasible

You can't make parental involvement mandatory because it discriminates against those with the least resources. An upper middle class stay at home parent can volunteer without it impacting his life in any meaningful way. A poor single parent working sub living wages or crazy shifts at multiple jobs - or who has health issues - doesn't have the same opportunities for volunteering. Some of my students are homeless and don't necessarily live with their parents. They are entitled to an equal education.

Likewise, emotionally disturbed kids have an equal right to education - excluding them from a free education is immoral. And I'll add there that I've had several emotionally disturbed kids in my classroom and yes it can be disruptive, but I still fully support their right to be there. They've almost all gotten way better in the four years we get them, some of them (like any other subgroup) are extremely bright and it would be a huge step backwards for us to just discard them like waste, but they do need accommodations at times.

Those who are a danger to others need to be excluded, however - I share your outrage that two students guilty of sexual assault are right back in the same school. They should be in an alternative environment.

It's cheaper, yes, to only educate the kids who are easiest to educate. It would be cheaper to only provide health care to healthy individuals, also. But that's not our job, as a society.

[ThoughtCriminal]

153. My experience - Charter Schools are Fraud

We tried it when our children were having trouble at their public school. Very quickly learned that these places make diploma mills look like M.I.T. Oh the kids liked it - passing grades with no real effort, but no real learning.

Maybe there are some good ones that actually educate their students, and maybe other states do a better job of oversight, but I would never repeat that mistake.

[lutefisk]

160. It really varies by state and school district, unfortunately.

My experience is just the opposite. Was your experience in a public charter school- one with licensed teachers employed by the school district and housed in a public school building? In my district the schools share space with a "traditional" public school and even share the same principal. The charter schools are every bit as accountable as any other school in the district.

[October]

210. Plenty of public schools are the same

I found a cyber charter with a strong curriculum. It surpassed my expectations!

Our public school district is very small, well paid, very affluent with beautiful buildings - all of which amounted to squat.

Uptight, rigid and punitive - and run by right-wing political wannabes on the board. Teachers were miserable too, yet with power and high pay. I don't get it.

[mzteris]

377. so maybe you should change your title to

"the one Charter School that we tried was 'a fraud' " instead of saying that (all) Charter Schools are Frauds, because I'm here to tell you that the two my son has attended are most definitely NOT fraudulent, they are most definitely non-profit, they serve a traditionally underserved portion of the population, they are not racist nor elitist. They are, in fact, very good schools with opportunities that my kid, the other poor kids, and the non-native-English speaking kids would never have had otherwise.

[bridgit]

193. To deregulation yes, to privatization as mentioned though to Neil Bush and they like him...

that push educational software, etc, it's part of how the wealthy stay wealthy stuffing it into each other's pockets and claiming it as a deduction < Former first lady's donation aids son also a tip of the hat to dominionist/christian fundamentalism & group think that they thought would prevail for hundreds of years to come; with the husk of what is then they hope to be a metal detected broken down TP-less public school system much easier to shutdown & chain-up closed and *thus* a further encroachment upon access & entitlements

[madfloridian]

197. More info and input from various sources about charter schools and problems arising.

Start with Arne Duncan and some very intriguing statements like increasing testing and tying student performance to teachers by databases. His very own words.

Is Arne Duncan really Margaret Spelling?

"However, based on what I have seen to date, I conclude that Obama has given President George W. Bush a third term in education policy and that Arne Duncan is the male version of Margaret Spellings. Maybe he really is Margaret Spellings without the glasses and wearing very high heels. We all know that Secretary Spellings greeted Duncan's appointment with glee. She wrote him an open letter in which she praised him as "a fellow reformer" who supports NCLB and anticipated that he would continue the work of the Bush administration. (Recall, Deborah, that the media today defines an education reformer as someone who endorses Republican principles of choice and accountability.)

Everything I have seen and learned since Duncan came to office has supported Secretary Spellings' admiring comments about Secretary Duncan. It turns out that Duncan, like the Bush administration, adores testing, charter schools, merit pay, and entrepreneurs. Part of the stimulus money, he told Sam Dillon of The New York Times, will be used so that states can develop data systems, which will enable them to tie individual student test scores to individual teachers, greasing the way for merit pay. Another part of the stimulus plan will support charters and entrepreneurs.

Duncan paid his first visit to New York City last week ("New Education Secretary Visits Brooklyn School," New York Times, Feb. 19, 2009). He did not visit a regular public school, but a charter school. Such decisions are not happenstance; they are intended to send a message. Bear in mind that the regular public schools enroll 98 percent of the city's one-million-plus students.

At the charter school, Duncan endorsed the core principles of the Bush education program. According to the account in the Times, Secretary Duncan said that "increasing the use of testing across the country should also be a spending priority." And he made this astonishing statement: "We should be able to look every second grader in the eye and say, 'You're on track, you're going to be able to go to a good college, or you're not...Right now, in too many states, quite frankly, we lie to children. We lie to them and we lie to their families."

Wow! More testing is needed. In New York City right now, students take a dozen tests a year. How many more should they take? How much of the stimulus package will be used to promote more testing across the country?"

Walmart is a major player in pushing charter schools.

Charter schools and attack on public education

"Friedman chose as his last battle before dying in 2006 to use his clout to push for the privatization of New Orleans’ public schools.4 He advocated for vouchers—government-funded certificates permitting parents to send their child to the school of their choice—but those who support his ideas have switched tracks slightly, pushing now for charter schools.

A charter school is any school that is funded publicly but governed by institutions outside the public school system. A company, a non-governmental organization, a university, or any group of people who write a charter can become autonomous from a public school board and control the budget, curriculum, and select the group of students in a school. They receive public money, and, in exchange, they set out quantifiable results that they will achieve. One quarter of charter schools are run by for-profit operators (called EMOs, Educational Management Organizations), but most are run by nonprofit entities (usually grouped under CMOs, Charter Management Organizations.)"

Now to the role of the Walton family in pushing these schools.

The Walton Family Foundation of Wal-Mart is the single biggest investor in charter schools in the United States, giving $50 million a year to support them.21 The Waltons specialize in giving money to opponents of public education. “Empowering parents to choose among competing schools,” said John Walton, son of Wal-Mart’s founder, “will catalyze improvement across the entire K–12 education system.”22 According to a National Committee for Responsive Philanthropy (NCRP) report, “Some critics argue that it is the beginning of the ‘Wal-Martization’ of education, and a move to for-profit schooling, from which the family could potentially financially benefit. John Walton owned 240,000 shares of Tesseract Group Inc. (formerly known as Education Alternatives Inc.), which is a for-profit company that develops/manages charter and private schools as well as public schools.”23 Wal-Mart is a notorious union-busting firm, famous for keeping its health-care costs down by discouraging unhealthy people from working at its stores, paying extremely low wages with poor benefits, and violating child labor laws. The company has reportedly looted more than $1 billion in economic development subsidies from state and local governments.24 Its so-called philanthropy seems also to be geared to the looting of public treasuries.

As for a coordinated effort, the private incursion into public schools is being pushed by a band of jackals grouped around Bill Gates and the $2 billion that his Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation have sunk into the education “reform” movement. The foundation funded a 2006 study by the New Commission on the Skills of the American Workforce called Tough Choices or Tough Times, “signed by a bipartisan collection of prominent politicians, businesspeople, and urban school superintendents,” which "called for a series of measures including: (a) replacing public schools with what the report called “contract schools,” which would be charter schools writ large; (b) eliminating nearly all the powers of local school boards—their role would be to write and sign the authorizing agreements for the contract schools; (c) eliminating teacher pensions and slashing health benefits; and (d) forcing all 10th graders to take a high school exit examination based on 12th grade skills, and terminating the education of those who failed (i.e., throwing millions of students out into the streets as they turn 16)"

Another definition that charter schools are deregulated.

Charter schools

"Defining charter schools is difficult given both the variety of the charter school statutes and the types of schools that have been created. Simply, charter schools are public schools that are freed from, in most cases, local and state regulations. A contract is formed when the charter school is created outlining the details of how the school will be organized and managed, what students will be taught and expected to achieve, and how success will be measured. In return for freedom, charter schools are held accountable for student performance - if the goals of the school set forth in the charter are not reached, the school's charter is not renewed."

More calls coming now for overhaul of the laws governing these schools. The pressure will be on as our new president has called for more of these schools to open.

Charter school problems surfacing

"A growing chorus of legislators and others say the law that launched the educational experiment needs an overhaul.

An Inquirer examination reveals:

The law allows little scrutiny of charters. Districts approve charters but have limited power to shut them down. The state exercises scant oversight on charter spending, which totals more than $633 million this year.

The law dictates a crazy-quilt pattern of funding for charters. Each district pays a different amount even when the students attend the same charter. For example, Philadelphia pays $8,088 per student; Jenkintown, $15,174. Cybers get the same payments as other charters even though students receive online instruction at home."

More details on funding of charter schools...and yes, they do take public money that public traditional schools used to get.

Charter school funding

"Charter schools are public schools. Like district public schools, they are funded according to enrollment (also called average daily attendance, or ADA), and receive funding from the district and the state according to the number of students attending. The ways and amounts at which charters are funded compared to their district counterparts differ dramatically in an individual state and even in individual communities within a state. Nationwide, on average, charter schools are funded at 61 percent of their district counterparts, averaging $6,585 per pupil compared to $10,771 per pupil at conventional district public schools. For more information and state-by-state funding comparisons, go to Following the Money.

Unlike traditional district schools, most charter schools do not receive funding to cover the cost of securing a facility. Conversion schools begin with established capital, namely the school and its facilities. A few states provide capital funding to start-up schools, and some start-up schools are able to take over available unused district space, but most must rely on other, independent means. Recent federal legislation provides funding to help charters with start-up costs, but the task remains imposing."

Just imagine public schools being well-funded, hiring good teachers with degrees, paying them fairly and well...and then may I quote Alfie Kohn from 1998:

I don't have the link, but the article is from 1998 from an article called Challenging Behaviorist Dogma: Myths About Money and Motivation.

To create a more democratic and collaborative workplace is not inconsistent with compensating people adequately for what they do. I am not arguing against money, which is necessary and even nice. I am arguing against (1) attributing more importance to money than it actually has, (2) pushing money into people's faces and making it more salient than it needs to be, and (3) confusing compensation with reward (the latter being unnecessary and counterproductive). The problem isn't with the dollars themselves, but with using dollars to get people to jump through hoops.

Thus, my formula for how to pay people distills the best theory, research, and practice with which I am familiar into three short sentences:

* Pay people well.

* Pay people fairly.

* Then do everything possible to take money off people's minds.

Notice that incentives, bonuses, pay-for-performance plans, and other reward systems violate the last principle by their very nature.

[LWolf]

213. Great information. I hope everyone reads it.

If the goal is to support Obama's agenda no matter what, facts won't matter.

If the goal is to shift the agenda away from privatization, then maybe they will.

:shrug:

[trudyco]

234. If Charters are so evil why do us parents clamor for them - because we are all racist???

Oh please. Even if some for-profit charter companies are making money off of the state, well if they are successful then so be it. Sure there are some states where things are getting corrupted (New Orleans, Florida - oh what a surprise!). Most are not.

The fact is that traditional schools are failing a lot of our kids. Parents are organizing to form schools that work for their kids. These schools in our state have to still do state tests which are published. If a charter school is a joke and the for-profit company that organized it is just pocketing the money (even with less than 100% funding and having to scramble for the building themselves) then it will show up in test scores. Parents will not sign up their kid there. Who would voluntarily drive their kids back and forth from a school that is a failure???

Our problem is that the school districts (so far) have been stifling the growth of them. The waiting lists are too long.

Since our state's charters are definately not religious, are filled on a first come first served (with maybe quotas for minorities, free lunch and learning disabilities), and follow the state tests just like everybody else I don't see what's wrong with charters. If it works, kids will join. If it doesn't, kids won't.

They can always go back to the local school that fails to educate them. I have had personal experience with my local that managed to have my kid go backwards in reading. Backwards! Then they told me we couldn't expect much of her because of her "profile". They said that most kids with that kind of profile in special ed just never get that far. They don't care that they are breaking the law and not providing FAPE. They take the special ed money they get and still fail to teach. Most parents can't afford to take them to court. You hear about it over and over again in the learning disabilities internet groups. It's heart rending. Parents are shocked. How can a principal, a teacher, a special ed specialist LIE? They do it everywhere in the country. There are programs out there that really work on these kids and the schools are not providing them.

We tried to get in a couple of charters after our experience but couldn't. We tried a brand new charter but it was still trying to figure out what it was doing so we left (duh! That's what parents do with failing charters!). We did homeschooling. Finally we are doing private. Our daughter is a grade ahead in reading. She's thriving. I look at the friends she still has from the local school. What a difference. Does she still have issues in academics? Yes. Is she being successful and will she go to at least Junior College? Yes. Will her friends at the local school go to junior college? Very few, if any. Many won't graduate high school. They are getting bad grades and thinking they are the failures. That's 20-25% of the class.

Traditional schools are failing our kids. Maybe not yours. Bully for you. But they are failing your kids' classmates. And that is a failure on our country's future.

Many charter schools are about parents and teachers who want to fix the failing system. I'm so happy Obama is on our side. I don't really like using private schools because they can discriminate. They can inculcate religion. I don't believe in vouchers for them (except I'm thinking maybe there should be for those kids with verified learning disabilities). I want a charter school that works for my kid. I want full funding for them, too.

[bridgit]

239. Funding for charter schools? You mean taxpayer funding? Isn't that what a public school is?

[trudyco]

379. Charter Schools ARE public schools. What's your point? They get less funding than traditional public

[bridgit]

387. They are an alternative to public schools, it's their selling point what's *your* point?

They operate under ancillary modes, receive funding up to and including faith based funding, vouchers are right there coming up behind come on - it's the privatized business of education just admit it and move on http://www.bushwatch.com/bushfaith.htm

[Hannah Bell]

392. depends on who's doing the counting.

[madfloridian]

244. Public school system would not be "failing" if they would quit defunding it.

Many public schools are about teachers who care and are devoted.

If you like charter schools, you've got them....Obama and Duncan are your guys.

I think if for one moment you would read what I wrote, it is about taking money away from public education that could be fixed if funded.

Think about it.

[trudyco]

378. I've lived it. This is public funding for public schools. It's putting

control back in (to some degree) with the parents.

Funding would help. But I've seen enough to know it won't solve all of the problems. There are GREAT teachers in traditional public schools (and I've watched them biting their tongues while their bosses lied their ass off about the fact that they did not provide an education for my child - I KNOW they knew it was wrong. But they weren't allowed to say anything). There are also GREAT teachers in public charter schools.

Money is being taken from the chokehold of schoolboards and administrators and teacher unions that have gone off on the wrong track. This is NOT taking money away from public schools. Charter schools ARE public schools. They just operate differently from what you want.

MadFloridian I really respect you but I think you are taking your personal experiences in one small part of the country and projecting it into a countrywide problem. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I guess, because you are vested in the status quo.

But for many, if not most, kids with learning differences the system doesn't work. I've talked to parents locally, in my district, in neighboring districts, across the country. Yes, we need more funding but we also need a system that works smarter. Charter schools figure it out. They don't have all the organizational overhead and inertia of the traditional school. In our state, at least, they DO have accountability. The biggest problem is that the districts are finding ways to stop the growth of successful charter schools.

I do think that there should be transportation for any child that can't afford to provide their own. That is the only thing I find uncomfortable with Charter Schools.

[Luminous Animal]

251. Because you are too fucking lazy to put the time in to improve

your public school. But all of the sudden you've got oodles of time and money to devote to your charter.


Traditional schools are not failing your kids, you, yes you, are failing traditional schools.

[mzteris]

282. and you quit because??????

:rofl:

[trudyco]

381. You must be bored and trying to inflame the conversation?

Because what you are saying is BS. What money did I devote to my charter?

Why do you assume I didn't spend hours at the traditional school?

I did volunteer to teach the first part of math two days a week at the Charter. In the Traditional Public School I also volunteered an equal 2 hours a week. I also took my kid out and had her private tutored part time when the school failed her (bringing her score up 1 grade level above in the areas we had tutored, which is why it was a joke when the IEP team claimed we "just can't expect much from a kid with her profile"). I went on almost all the field trips. Graded papers. Assisted kids in math. Made dittos. Lead reading groups. Made suggestions to the SLP based on what I learned from our private tutors. Whatever the teachers needed I did and then some.

If they aren't using the right tool to fix the problem it doesn't matter how much time you devote. It won't work. If the powers that be don't want to figure out what tool to use and how to use it, then you are never going to get anywhere. This is what parents with kids like dyslexics are finding out all over the country. The administration takes the special ed money, don't provide appropriate remediation, and then LIE when they are called on the carpet for not following Federal Law. They don't care because hardly anybody takes them to court (too much time, money and emotional trauma). In some states, too, the courts inappropriately side with the schools. NJ is infamous for that.

Go inflame some other conversation. Something you might know something about.

[Hannah Bell]

258. "How can a principal, a teacher, a special ed specialist LIE? They do it everywhere in the country."

everywhere, eh?

mighty broad brush you got.

no surprise, reading the rest of the post.


"Even if some for-profit charter companies are making money off of the state, well if they are successful then so be it."

i have a better idea, how about if they just set up a private school, & you pay for it.

[mzteris]

289. honey - I'm on boards

with people all over the country, and the stories are surprisingly similar.

Sad, really.

[Hannah Bell]

290. "honey" tells the tale.

sad, really.

[mzteris]

298. I'm a southern gal, what can I say?

It was infinitely preferable to what I was thinking. :evilgrin:

[Hannah Bell]

309. ditto, honey.

[trudyco]

386. Well I'm not Southern and I'm really disappointed you used a Repuke tactic

I tell it like it is. If you are going to rebut an argument then do so. To just turn around and attack the messenger is puerile and SOOO Republican. It means you don't have anything valid to say. Go check out those learning disability boards like LDonline. It really is similar all over the country. Then come back and make an argument.

[Hannah Bell]

389. I'm disappointed you haven't read the discussion.

[mzteris]

437. isn't it sad that people refuse to listen?

I was at first amazed, and then appalled, at the similarities of experiences from person after person, state after state, (heck, I've even heard similar stories from England!) from boys, girls, elementary, middle, highschool,

special ed, gifted, 2E kids (I wonder how many people on here even KNOW the term "2e", eh? Hell, my neighbor - who is getting her Masters in Special Ed - and has been teaching for 15 years - didn't know the gd term! Of course she'd never heard of Auditory Processing Disorder either, and I'm pretty sure that's a problem that her own child has! :banghead: anyway.....) learning differenced, Asperger's, Visual-Spatial learners in an Auditory teaching environment.

Kids who think outside the box. Kids who reject the box. Kids who can't even FIND the damn box!

It is so sad to read over and over again how the schools have let these kids down. Teachers who abuse them. Deliberately or through complete ignorance (which they refuse to remedy). Principals who don't even know what teaching IS because they've been trained to be ADMINSTRATORS. Teachers who have absolutely NO understanding of how 2E kids operate and learn. Discrimination. Racism. Favoritism. Harassment. Bullying. Insulting. Denigrating.

Yeah. Some teachers do that. It's a sad truth, but the truth nonetheless. I'm not saying all teachers are like that, or even most teachers, but there are a damn sight more in the system than should ever be allowed to stay. People want to believe that all teachers are Mary Poppins or something. (I had ONE of those in the entire time I went to school.)

Not all my teachers were "bad". But some were. Sadly, I had fewer "really good teachers" than "really bad teachers" The fact is, most of them were AVERAGE. And boringly average at that. (I'm sorry. I grew up in a world where "average" was tantamount to "failure". I was in college before I knew that a "C" wasn't a failing grade. lol....)


Anyway, sorry to rant. Thanks for noticing this poster's MO. Namecalling seems to be the extent of it. (You can tell who DIDN't hs, eh? lol)

[Hannah Bell]

452. yes, it certainly is sad when people refuse to listen.

[mzteris]

464. no wonder you seem so

miserable.

Smile. It'll get better. . . :)

[trudyco]

385. Yes everywhere. Go get on some learning disability boards.

Listen to the anguish good parents with kids with learning differences are going through. They trust the traditional schools and then a year, two years, six years they go "Oh. Why can't my kid still not read? The school said they are just a late bloomer? But they are in middle school and can still only read at a second grade level". Then they try to fight and they find out how it really works.

And the percentage of kids with learning differences, for whatever reason, keeps getting bigger. Go ahead and ridicule or be smug, but it is our country's future you are mocking. There are a LOT of kids out there who we are failing because of the stagnation of the traditional school system (along with underfunding).

I stand by the statement: If a for profit is successfully teaching kids then so be it. I don't care if it is lining a CEO's pocket or an administrator's pocket... as long as we are getting good value for our tax payer dollars.

I've opted for a private school for now, until the district is FORCED to open up more charter schools that work for my kid. Homeschooling is usually the option for most parents. I've done that, too. It's a big burden to put on parents. It shouldn't be that way.

[madfloridian]

247. Walmart largest donor to charter schools....over 50 million a year.

"The Walton Family Foundation of Wal-Mart is the single biggest investor in charter schools in the United States, giving $50 million a year to support them.21 The Waltons specialize in giving money to opponents of public education. “Empowering parents to choose among competing schools,” said John Walton, son of Wal-Mart’s founder, “will catalyze improvement across the entire K–12 education system.”22 According to a National Committee for Responsive Philanthropy (NCRP) report, “Some critics argue that it is the beginning of the ‘Wal-Martization’ of education, and a move to for-profit schooling, from which the family could potentially financially benefit. John Walton owned 240,000 shares of Tesseract Group Inc. (formerly known as Education Alternatives Inc.), which is a for-profit company that develops/manages charter and private schools as well as public schools.”23 Wal-Mart is a notorious union-busting firm, famous for keeping its health-care costs down by discouraging unhealthy people from working at its stores, paying extremely low wages with poor benefits, and violating child labor laws. The company has reportedly looted more than $1 billion in economic development subsidies from state and local governments.24 Its so-called philanthropy seems also to be geared to the looting of public treasuries."

http://normsnotes2.blogspot.com/2009/02/charter-schools-and-attack-on-public.html

[Mithreal]

254. I am impressed, Mad.Your posts keep me glued to DU.

This post about Walmart is disturbing and a must read by every DU'er and every teacher.

I liked that your OP reframed the issue in deregulation. I think you are getting closer to a very powerful argument. I don't quite think Progressives' arguments for public schools are extremely persuasive yet, but this is good progress. I just don't quite know what is missing in the reasoned arguments supporting public schools, students, teachers and their unions but I sense we are really not breaking through with those opposed or supporting destructive policies, but this reframing is better. Cheers on a getting a lively discussion going too.

I am still relatively new at discussing politics of public education so maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but following the discussions this past week, I have seen several really good ways to reframe this debate, yours included.

[inthebrain]

256. Well, "First they came for the Welfare Mothers and I didn't say anything becuase I wasn't a Welfare

Mother.

Now they've come for the teachers.

Seriously, it's amazing how they find scapegoats for the innablity of capitalism to provide anything for anyone.

Our economic system is seriously fucked and any politician looking to point fingers at powerless people should be taken to task. I'm a nurse and I trust that we are very soon next.

[No.23]

262. Oh, the irony of it all.

On the one hand, we gladly pick up our pitchforks and staunchly fight for a woman's right to choose.

And we have no qualms if our tax monies are spent to advance that right too.

But when it comes to a parent's right to choose what is best for his or her own child, we want to limit those choices if they include charter schools.

And demand that their tax monies be spent where we want them to be spent, and not where they want.

The frickin' irony of it all indeed.

Parents of school-aged children pay taxes.

What's so bloody wrong with giving parents the opportunity to choose how they can benefit from the taxes that they pay?

Or have we become so accustomed to others deciding how our taxes should be spent...

that we want to pass on that authoritarian restriction on on others too?

[Greyskye]

284. So, so true.

Excellent points, which will (I'm sure), be ignored by those most in need of acknowledging them.

Welcome to DU!

[madfloridian]

285. Come to Florida

My tax dollars will be used to send your kid to the private religious school of your choice.

[Greyskye]

294. Maybe you should come to California...

...where your tax dollars will not be.

Seriously, I get it that Florida Charter schools are messed up. I'd be furious if I was in your place as well, but there would be one huge difference.

I'd be waging war against how charter schools in Florida are run; not waging war against all charter schools across the entire country.

[madfloridian]

297. I call it presenting facts and educated opinions...not waging war.

In fact I think some in this thread are waging war on me.

[Greyskye]

301. When you continue to broad brush ALL charter schools with the same problems that you seen in Florida

Then yes, I feel that there are some here (including myself) who want to show that not every state has the problems with charter schools that you are seeing in Florida.

I get it, I really do. Seriously, you have convinced me that there are very serious issues in Florida, and in some other states that revolve around charter schools, privatization, unionization, and religious indoctrination in the public school system.

I really wish that YOU would acknowledge that these problems do not exist in every state under the umbrella of what are called charter schools.

[madfloridian]

307. Almost every definition of "charter school" uses the word "deregulate"

or "lack of regulation" as in public schools.

You may blame me for presenting what is accepted truth by so many, or you can do your own research.

[Greyskye]

318. Brick Wall.

I'm talking to a brick wall.

:banghead:

[Hannah Bell]

421. you *are* a brick wall.

[mzteris]

344. Definitely Regulated.

S: (n) charter school (an experimental public school for kindergarten through grade 12; created and organized by teachers and parents and community leaders; operates independently of other schools) WordNet Search - 3.0



Charter schools are elementary or secondary schools in the United States that receive public money but have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each school's charter. While charter schools provide an alternative to other public schools, they are part of the public education system and are not allowed to charge tuition. Where space at a charter school is limited, admission is frequently allocated by lottery based admissions. Some charter schools provide a curriculum that specializes in a certain field-- e.g. arts, mathematics, etc. Others attempt to provide a better and more efficient general education than nearby public schools. (wiki)



charter school. A public charter school is a publicly funded school that, in accordance with an enabling state statute, has been granted a charter exempting it from selected state or local rules and regulations. A charter school may be newly created, or it may previously have been a public or private school; it is typically governed by a group or organization (e.g., a group of educators, a corporation, or a university) under a contract or charter with the state. In return for funding and autonomy, the charter school must meet accountability standards. A school's charter is reviewed (typically every 3 to 5 years) and can be revoked if guidelines on curriculum and management are not followed or the standards are not met. The NAEP Glossary of Terms




Public charter school: A public charter school is a publicly funded school that, in accordance with an enabling statute, has been granted a charter exempting it from selected state or local rules and regulations. A public charter school may be a newly created school or it may previously have been a public or private school. In return for funding and autonomy, the charter school must meet accountability standards. A school’s charter is reviewed (typically every 3 to 5 years) and can be revoked if guidelines on curriculum and management are not followed or the standards are not met. (See also Public school.)IES National Center for Education Statistics



And last but not least:

What are Charter Schools? A Definition

What exactly are Charter Schools? The strict definition is rather straightforward. State-legislated Charter Schools are legally independent, innovative, outcome-based, public schools. Common characteristics include:

* Legislatively authorized

Independent Charter Schools require state legislation to authorize their existence. The legislation outlines general specifications and requirements for establishing a Charter School in a state, and regulates the number of Charter Schools permitted statewide. The process may be used to create a new school or to empower an existing school.

* Teacher initiated

Teachers or organizers follow state guidelines when they submit their plans for a Charter School to a local board of education or other sponsor. The sponsor grants or denies a "charter" to operate. These agreements may or may not require the final approval of the state board of education.

* Independent school districts

In some states, once these schools receive their charters they organize as a discrete legal entity - often but not always a nonprofit corporation - and operate almost as an autonomous school district. Some advocates say that this aspect of Charter Schools is a key to differentiating a Charter School from an existing district's alternative school.

* Public schools

Charter Schools are public schools. They are mandated to teach all students, not just gifted or well-financed students. They may not charge tuition. Admission cannot be limited by any intellectual or athletic characteristic. They are bound by all civil rights provisions. And when demand for admission exceeds the number of slots, students are chosen randomly by lot. They may not have a religious affiliation.

* Not magnets

Charter Schools are not magnet schools. Students don't have to show special skills or pass tests for admission as is the case in some magnets. However, Charter Schools may target certain enduring learning problems, developmental needs, or educational possibilities. They have specific organizing themes and educational philosophies that guide their work. So, like magnet schools, students may be attracted by the educational idea and vision that guides the learning experience offered by a Charter School.

* Outcome-based

The original charter, which is negotiated and signed between a Charter School's founding teachers and supporters and the sponsor, sets forth detailed conditions and expectations for an outcome-based school.

Outcome-based means that students must demonstrate what they have learned and know before they move forward in their diverse studies. The goal is to prove active student competence and knowledge in diverse subjects rather than merely record attendance and effort at learning.

* Models for change

From the legislative point of view, innovation is a key component of the Charter School strategy. In Minnesota, for example, the legislative intent is that charters be signed only for innovative school plans or for schools that more effectively reach out to educate students who have been underserved in the past. Thus, Charter Schools are intended to be labs of educational experimentation in these areas aimed at developing new teaching and learning strategies and approaches that can be utilized in other traditional public schools.

* Waivers

In exchange for their innovative and carefully outlined outcome-based plans and community support, Charter Schools receive waivers from state laws and from many state and local administrative rules that can hamper innovation, such as rules mandating the amount of time that a class must spend on a particular subject or how the subject is taught. Since Charter Schools are treated as independent entities, they are not required to report on a daily basis to the local school board that grants them the charter. Charter Schools do not receive waivers from safety, health, dismissal, or civil rights regulations, nor do they escape state testing and report card mechanisms that can keep track of their real progress. However, charters set their own conditions for teacher work rules and salaries.

* Revenue

The basic idea is for students to bring the average funds per pupil with them from their previous district for Charter School to use. Thus, when students move from traditional public schools to charter public schools, money follows. The old school districts lose those dollars to the Charter Schools. To retain that money, legislative advocates say, the traditional public schools will have to improve their educational programs so that they are more attractive to students and their families.

Conversely, when students who have dropped out or have gone off to private schools come back into a Charter School, as in the case of City Academy, their old district is unaffected. Then the Charter School brings additional dollars into the local education arena. The 1993 Minnesota legislation prohibits raising funds for start-up costs through grants or contributions.

* Limited term

Charter Schools are performance-oriented. Renewable charters usually are granted by the local school board for a period of three to five years, depending upon state legislation. Charter Schools must produce student improvement and performance or perish.
North Central Regional Educational Laboratory




hmmmmmmm - don't see the words "deregulate" or "lack of regulation" ANYWHERE.


edittypo

[No.23]

375. People for consistently vote for a lesser evil...

are traditionalists, in my eyes.

It is a relatively traditional response, compared to the untraditional alternative of voting for an independent or third party instead.

And when you are a traditionalist, like many lesser evil voters are, you tend to have a skewed opinion of nontraditional alternatives.

Charter schools are nontraditional alterantives.

Is it really any surprise that some traditionalists have a personal aversion to nontraditional options like charter schools?

Traditional eyes see things in a traditional way.

Evidence of that abounds in this tread.

[madfloridian]

410. You have got your charter schools. Obama has spoken

Be happy, Smile.

[No.23]

413. I will have cause to celebrate ONLY after...

the Military Industrial Complex is disassembled...

and the funds redistributed to universal health and education...

both of the tradition and nontraditional variety.

As of yet, I have very little cause to celebrate.

Nothing significant can be accomplished...

until the MIC is substantively addressed.

[TBF]

267. Sorry I didn't see this in time to rec. Really good points in here. n/t

[Sylo Tode]

286. Charters Are Anti-Union, Not Deregulation

I have been involved with charter schools, primarily Edison Schools in Michigan. They are public schools and have to follow the same regulations and procedures as "traditional" public schools. Their primary purpose is to counter unions; unionized charter schools are the exception, not the norm.

In Michigan, the funding follows the students-if they go to a public school. When students leave a district, for whatever reason, they lose funding for that student. Charter schools are taking money from public schools, public schools are losing money because they are losing students. It's a subtle distinction, but it's there.

This is not to say that charter schools don't have problems. This is only to address the deregulation claim. Pick a public school regulation and it probably applies to charter schools. The only one that I know that might not apply is residency.

[madfloridian]

292. Yes, they are deregulated.

.

[Sylo Tode]

367. I'll Need More Than That

Perhaps it would help if you define what deregulation is. It might just be the way they are being set-up in Florida.

In Michigan, charter schools have the same requirements for student accountability as traditional public schools; we still have to meet a certain length of time each school year, we have to use the same procedures for state reporting, we require the same documentation when students enroll (the residence requirements are different, but we still need the paperwork), we have to take the statewide standardized tests the same time all the other schools do, we still answer to the county for audits, etc.

[kwassa]

288. Charter schools are different in different schools systems. They are not all the same.

Some are well-regulated, others have virtually no regulation. The quality of charters varies as much as the qualities of public schools in this country.

There are excellent public schools systems, there are terrible ones, and everything in between.

There is not one characteristic that they all meet.

Many participants in these threads come from the viewpoint of their local situation, and extrapolate that to represent all charters and school systems, which is simply a false projection of one data point to represent all data points. It doesn't work.

[Jakes Progress]

316. It's not a mater of whether a single charter

school is good or bad. It's a matter of educating all children - not just yours. (I didn't use the second person pronoun there to refer the the poster, but generically.) Sure a charter school can work. I know I could start a great one. I know the teachers and the methods that work. That would take care of about a hundred or so kids.

The problem is that advocates point to one that works and ignores the ones that don't. They point to the public schools that don't work and lump all public schools together. It is a wedge to convince the electorate that schools suck. Corporations want charter schools. When was the last time you saw a corporation that wanted something for the public good. They know the next step is their foot in the door. The next step is schools by General Electric that get their contract from the government the way Carlyle gets its contracts. Try getting them to do the right thing then.

[trudyco]

390. But all Charter Schools are held accountable -so if it works

and the parents put their kids in there because the traditional school didn't work, then what is your problem? You see, if the megacorporations want to invest in charter schools and they suck all the money out of them then the schools aren't going to succeed. Parents are going to pull their kids out. The megacorporations lose their dough.

If, however, they line their pockets modestly (as opposed to administrators and district overhead lining their pockets) and create schools that really work for the kids that need them - then that is a win/win situation. Not a conspiracy. I think you are taking a giant leap if you think the electorate is going to allow corporations to create crummy schools that parents are FORCED to put their kids in (and drive them back and forth since they seldom have transportation and pack lunches cuz they often have no cafeteria). Ain't gonna happen.

Take off the tin foil and fluff out your hair.

[Jakes Progress]

403. Name calling and good wishes

won't solve the problem. Yours is a simplistic version of what happens. First - not all charter schools are held accountable. The majority that fail are because of monetary problems - not educational. It's not that they are or are not educating children, they can't manage money.

Secondly, a few do a good job. (I know from my own experience). But most just have to convince the parents that they are doing a good job.

Third. Corporations don't invest in charter schools because they will make money on them. That hasn't happened in any instance yet. No corporate charter school has turned a profit yet. Thinking that adding a corporate bottom line to a school will make it cheaper and better is like thinking that insurance companies will make healthcare cheaper and better. Just plain silly.

Corporations have a long view on this. Charters embellish the concept that schools are failing. Their goal is not to entice parents to enroll their children in their schools. They will set up companies that will lobby for and obtain government contracts for public money to run a schooling system. They have been very successful at convincing even well-intentioned supposed liberals of the failure of public schools. It is working for them. Just read the thread. So much anti-public school sentiment, so much anti NEA rhetoric. It does a neocon's heart good to see their words show up here.

Take off the blinders and look around. (Can't fluff my hair. I lost it almost thirty years ago.)

[Jakes Progress]

293. The negative replies here are a sign

of how well the republicans have done their propaganda.

I once read a memo that Michael Milken (of another era's wall street scam) wrote for a presentation to a neocon group. In it he pointed out that private corporations controlled media, transportation, medicine, and the military. The next big boom he saw was to create the market for taking over the 98% of the education business that was still a part of government. He suggested a wide spread weakening of the schools and perception of public schooling. His projection was that there was a tipping point. If you could get a certain percentage, 9-12% if I recall, of the upper middle class to have their kids in private schools, then they would pressure their congressmen to give the tax money for private schools. He thought that the religious right could help. And charter schools became a mid way stopping point on the way to the privatization of the education system. He wasn't in it to improve schools. It was a money thing. The part that the group thought would be the hardest was convincing decent folk that the schools were destroying their children. They used the religious right. They used the egos of parents who kids could be called gt. They started the stupid testing programs. They used their media outlets. They did actual damage to the budgets and programs in thousands of districts.

In the end. They are succeeding. No matter how bad you think your kid's school is now. When it is run by the Carlyle Group, you will have the results you are seeking.

[Hannah Bell]

300. Yes, it's planned, step-by-step. And funded, including some of the leaders of these nice little

charter/voucher/homeschool "support groups".

[Jakes Progress]

311. Milken's brother

set up a big old charter system of schools. It's a wedge.

I spent 30 years in education and know there are problems, but doing away with public schools is not the answer. It's the short cut to "me taking care of me" that so many without a sense of community or purpose seek. They follow the crowd - even when the crowd is a group of greedy, republican racists.

[mzteris]

315. I'm sorry, but you're wrong wrong wrong

My younger son IS African American. Many many hs'ers and Charter schoolsl are home a whole damn lot of minorities who get bupkiss in the PS system.

I don't want to "do away" with Public School. None of us want to DO AWAY WITH IT. But we'd dearly love to see it FIXED! I support it. I think it's imperative for society - But guess what - one size does NOT fit all.

BTW - Charters ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS - and don't you think that having alternative systems available to children FOR FREE instead of just for those who can AFFORD IT? Or do you believe that only those who can afford private school should receive the benefits of a modified education plan? How can Charters not be beneficial to children and to the communities they serve? Charters can do things that PS can't.

How dare you imply that all of us here on DU whose children go to charters or who homeschool are "racist republicans"? If you really think that, I'd love for you to go call AVA a Racist Republican. . .

[Jakes Progress]

325. You did not read my post carefully.

Did you make your statement accusing me of calling you a racist republican knowingly (and thus dishonestly) or did you not understand the simple sentence I used. I didn't say those who jumped on the charter school bandwagon were racist republicans. I said they followed the crowd lead by racist republicans, the implication being that they didn't understand what was being done to them. If you think that GE and Carlyle want charter schools because they love your son, you are naive. They help to ruin public schools with the NCLB crap and then throw out a life line of a charter school for your child. You reach for the line, but it is actually a baited hook. Sure your kid will do better. But it sets the stage for his kids. They will go to the Monsanto School System that gets its contract from the same corrupt politicians that gave our medical and military systems to the highest paying corporations. They use the poor record that public education has for minorities (actually help it be poor by pushing high stakes testing) to gain ethos for their plan.

The working charter school is the best argument that these sleaze balls have for having tax money go to them. It will happen. When it does, we will have no more luck getting our schools back than we do our doctors or our airwaves.

You cannot want public school to succeed by cherry picking schools for a select few. Fixing public schools would be hard. Harder than universal health care. That's why we won't have either. We will continue with a two tier medical system and establish a two tier education system as the government financed, corporation operated mandate. Now that your child has a better chance at a good education, how many protests have you organized regarding what schools are doing to the children who aren't in the same boat? How hard do you lobby your school board representative for more funds for classrooms in all the schools? How many letters to the editor have you written demanding that all schools do the same for all children what your child has lucked into?

[mzteris]

339. GE and Carlyle have absolutely NOTHING to do

with the Charter schools my kid attended. So they're invested in some. So what. You'd think they'd WANT the traditional PS model since it was designed on the industrialist system. Sit quietly. Do what you're told. Only what you're told When you are told. Go to the bathroom only when you're told. Wait for the whistle (oh I mean BELL) to tell you when to do anything.


In case you forgot - SCHOOL BOARDS ARE RUN BY ELECTED POLITICIANS!! Funded by the County/City/State/Federal Government - so don't go crying "crooked politician" over Charters.


and yeah, you were implying that either I am a (and all other Charter people are) completely ignorant twit(s)) or that we're racist Republicans. And I think possibly that's what was intended. :(

[Jakes Progress]

353. Naive.

You are working locally and personally. The corporations are working globally.

Naive is not ignorant. Willingly naive though, because it is easier to take the gift for your child and run, without really looking into it.

You keep making sweeping statements about what I said, missing the point each time. The Charter "movement" was not generated by concerned parents. Concerned parents were recruited for the battle, but such a program that does so much good for some children would never get through the pipes without the corporate push that propels such things.

You did not address my questions about the state of your activism for children other than your own.

[mzteris]

358. actually charters were introduced by DEMOCRATIC

senators. . .

see one of my other posts on here, somewhere.

I was going to link to my very long post about my experiences, but it got deleted because it made too much sense and refuted to well the "arguments" of the person to whom I was responding, so they got annoyed and had it zapped. :eyes:

In a very quick nutshell: I graduated from PS. My daughter graduated from PS. My youngest is in his 2nd Charter school (4th grade - Spanish immersion. We moved states.) My middle kid - my son - was - um - let down - by the PS system and we hs'ed for 7 years (two states). He had one semester in 8th grade at the PS here - that was an unmitigated disaster but is now in 9th grade at a Public High School, which fortunately for him is an alternative school with a self-directed learning model that is full of all those bright quirky kids that the tradtional PS model generally cannot reach. Oh yeah, and as a foster mom, I had kids in other PS schools as well (forgot to add that earlier.

My son's Charter is housed in the same building as a tradtional PS - the PTA is a joint PTA - all fundraisers are split. Activities are shared. So when I volunteer there, it's for the "other" school as well.

[Hannah Bell]

384. Democrats like this:

Ember Reichgott Junge’s “momentum” aided by Republican funders

"An in-depth analysis of Ember Reichgott Junge’s July 15 FEC disclosure reveals that Junge is funded by twenty-five donors who have no or little history giving to Democratic candidates. These donors have collectively contributed $233,400 since 2000 to Republican candidates, committees and PACs.

The recipients of these funds range from Mark Kennedy ($29,600) to George W. Bush ($13,500). Even the National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC), the committee “devoted to increasing the number of Republicans in Congress” has benefited ($18,600) from the same donors who are backing Junge.

Other candidates who received contributions are Tom Delay, Rick Santorum, Norm Coleman, John Kline, Ted Stevens and Roy Blunt.

Other committees and PACs who were given donations are the MNGOP, Minnesotans for a Republican Congress Committee, the Rally for Leadership Fund (John Kline), Club for Growth, Every Republican is Crucial PAC and the Majority Initiative to Keep Electing Republicans."

http://www.blanked-out.com/2006/08/20/ember-reichgott-j... /

[Jakes Progress]

396. I'm happy that your kid

is getting the help he needs.

Please review the postings. This is about what happens to all children. Not just yours. Charters, with which I have extensive experience, are the wedge that will be used to remove tax money from public schools. What you are experiencing now will not be what we will have available in the future. Charters are public schools. Those that work well (not a majority) are used, not as examples of how a school should be taught, but as examples to castigate public schools and cut funding. The best Charters drain the best and brightest teachers from the system. If the charter that your child attends is so good (I have no doubt it is) then why isn't the whole school that way. This is a situation that plays out all over the country. The people who set up the Charter school system are not interested in using them to improve public schools. They want them to fail. They generate twenty charter schools. A few work, usually because of dedicated teachers sucked from the public sector. These working schools generate parents like yourself. Glad that your child is getting a good education and vocally attacking the mainstream school. The end result is public dissatisfaction with public schools at large. Once the public demands that money for private schools be tax deducible, the next step is to have government make public money available for private school tuition. Bingo. American education becomes another corporate product.

If you don't think this is happening, then you are far too trusting.

Again, I'm glad you child is getting a good education. All children should.

[mzteris]

435. I disagree with you.

1. It's not just "my" kid, but a whole damn lot of kids.

2. They're not being used to "beat up" Public schools, they are offering an alternative. PS's can't "do what Charters do" because they are designed completely differently.

You should well know that the bureaucracy that permeates PS keeps them from doing what they really need to be doing. They can not be as innovative. They cannot typically limit class sizes. They cannot tailor programs designed to accomplish specific goals. I wish they could, but they don't.

And I'm sorry, but if SOME of our kids DON"T get a good education, we are going to be totally screwed in another generation, ya know? I mean, if the building's on fire, I'm not going to leave my kid inside just because no one else can get out. I'm going to rescue him and as many as I can take with me. And that means doing whatever I can to help the kids. Help improve PS, and offer alternatives where appropriate.

My son's particular schools is a Spanish immersion program. The rest of the school "isn't that way" because it's a TRADITIONAL public school designed to meet the needs of the nonexistent "average" kid.

I just found out today from the Art teacher (whole school) that the GD SCHOOL BOARD wants to cut funding for Art, Music and PE for the district again!!!! WTF??? I mean, really. WTF is the school board thinking? These things are vital for a child to develop and grow. aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhh - I will be writing and call my SB rep and others tomorrow. I'm thinking of contacting the news, too. That is so totally ridiculous.

I also just found out that the SB refused to listen to our appeal for a Charter Middle School for our Spanish program. The new superintendent here doesn't "like Charters" (ijut - even though we've proven our success). How the HELL will the traditional middle school that offers "Spanish 1 & 2" (which is really like a 1/2 semester of highschool Spanish) going to meet the needs of kids who are FLUENT in Spanish and are on the verge of becoming very literate (reading and writing) in a 2nd language for both the non-native Spanish speakers AND the non-native English Speakers?

That's something else I'm going to be ranting about for the next few years. If they do not (grant a middle Charter), and we can't come up with a suitable alternative, I'm thinking we will either have to move back to our old school (another state) as they're now extended up to 8th grade, or I will homeschool him during the middle school years (along with some of the other Spanish immersion families, I'm sure) with a Spanish tutor. One of the main reasons I'd homeschool, though, is that I refuse to send my kid to a public middle school. The behaviours there are atrocious. Gang activity. Drugs. Sex. Fighting. Boredom, Apathy. (and that's just the teachers! lol - sorry, that was a poor attempt at a little joke. . .)

Seriously, the "tradional model" just doesn't work in my opinion. Innovation in education is desperately needed. And Charters are providing that. PS's must realize - and soon - that they MUST alter their approach.

[Jakes Progress]

442. You are very caught up in your own

little world. You rail against the public school system while arguing that charter schools are public schools. Circular arguments are not effective at proving a point. That's the kind of basic logic that I hope your child's school is helping him learn.

You like to personalize concepts and organizations. You say that public schools need to realize this or that. What do you think public schools are? Does the brick building need to come to a realization? Do the four hundred people who work there have any control over what the public demands they do? You rant against the School Board, but they are not a part of the "system". They are the elected officials who manage the system. Notice that they are elected officials. They are put in office to do what the public wants. So what your really don't like is what the public, you know - your neighbors and fellow citizens - are asking the district to do. You said that if charters didn't do what parents wanted, they would just pull their kids out. Well, then if the school board doesn't do what the community wants, they will be taken from office. Right? Your beef is with your neighbors, not with your public school workers.

It is much easier to rant and stamp you foot and demand that your needs be attended to. It is something else to gut it up and go to the board meetings, organize community support, or even run for the board yourself.

I agree that schools need to change. But for that to happen, the people will have to want it to happen. They will have to be willing to pay the taxes and educate themselves about what learning really is. There are some effective charter schools, but they are expensive and they just help dampen the anger or frustration of the most vocal of those who want change. Notice that when your child's special situation is threatened, you will call the board and the news. Back when you got what you wanted for your child - thousands of other not getting the same thing - you didn't feel the need to be so active. How then did the charter school help improve the system?

[Hannah Bell]

454. good response.

[mzteris]

462. I rail against "Traditional" Public schools - there's a difference -

Charters ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, with a difference (like some SB run schools that are considered "alternative" - far too few of those. Maybe if the SB's were a little more innovative, then we wouldn't NEED "charters".

No the "Tradional public school system" is so entrenched that it seems unable to grow and make effective changes. Everyone knows it's broken and needs improving, but for some damn reason, it isn't happening. And one of those reasons is BUREAUCRACY!!

Uh - I have and do go to board meetings and call my SB representative, and write letters . . .

Did you realize that *most* (I don't say all, because I don't know the all the state statutes) only get a PERCENTAGE of that "Student Money" and the rest goes to the Public school that they WOULD have gone to? So, in effect, tradional PS's are getting more money with less effort than they would have had the kid have actually attended the school . . .


Charters improve the system by offering better educational models for children. By meeting the needs of the children in the community, thus improving the community, - this is a good thing. And - maybe, hopefully, some ijut on the SB will get a clue and figure out just what IS working and real modications that work will be made to the tradional school model. Magnet schools are a step in the right direction, btw. (My kids attended those, too.)

[Jakes Progress]

469. Read my post again.

I said I was glad your child was getting the special attention. Then I explained that the bureaucracy (it's rude to shout) that your refer to is exactly what it is because the public wants it that way. Public schools are not an it. They are an institution reflecting the public desire for educating and caring for children. Everyone rails against the public school system. It is easy. It also doesn't change anything.

I'm glad you are an active citizen who demands that schools be improved for all children. You have read what I think the charter school excuse does for public schools. They do not serve as a model. They are a release valve. it is a way to not really pay for and effect change.

You asked if I realized that charters only get a percentage of what goes to public schools. Actually I know how most charter schools are funded across the country. I have researched and written extensively about that very thing. You would have to tell me what state you are in to be sure, but I can assure that most charters cost more and get more than the mainstream schools. There is an effort to show parity of funding, but when you add in the extra curriculum, teacher training, and active parent volunteer work as well as the usually less diverse population, you get a very different picture. Another element is donations. Businesses and organizations like the prestige of donating to these schools with a higher profile. Adding the term Academy to the name of a charter is good for a considerable boost in donation funding. Again, if a local business is going to help pay for something in the schools, if the charters are unequally represented in that largesse, then the public schools suffer.

Magnet schools are designed for the most part to effect desegregation without mandating busing. Too many programs fall into the category of being for the elite and benefit from the egos of the parents. Were I to want to start a profitable charter, i would probably call it the Gifted Academy for Advanced Children. I would rake in the dough. It wouldn't matter if I sat them in the chairs and showed movies three days a week. The school would draw acclaim on the basis of the bumper stickers. I would put lots of academic award banners up everywhere. Then I would drill the children to master the limited curriculum of whatever pansy test the state required. 99 Percent of the parents would want to run me for governor.

My jaded view comes from working at trying to effect change for 30 years. Not writing blogs or pitching fits at PTA meetings, but by spending 10 hours a day working with students, parents, and teachers, going over thousands of pages of student work, helping hundreds of new teachers move to professionalism. Only to find that the corporations and publishing companies will swoop in and convince parents that their "special" child will benefit more from their elite program. When the program stinks, it doesn't matter. When the program is decent, it never gets moved to the general program.

Maybe parents will like the "special" corporate programs. When their lobbyists get through smoozing the contracts from the state legislature, they will be well funded. But about 30% will come off the top for profit margin. Hope you will like the General Electric Academy for Advanced Gifted and Most Eminently Artistic Children. It is where all this is leading.

[trudyco]

395. Well, when they don't have good arguments against statements

for public charter schools they have to resort to name calling.

In this case it is a conspiracy and we are either idiots for falling for the great republican conspiracy or we are a part of it.

Somehow they fail to explain how the Republicans investing in charter school companies will make big bucks or indoctrinate our children - since we always have the right to pull our kids out.

I'm sure the Repubs are working on the voucher system which is bad. Just like people who don't have kids or have kids grown up and don't want to pay taxes to schools. It's a very narcisstic view of the world.

OTOH Charter schools allow parents more freedom to give their kids the best future they can. To me, it's kind of like being Pro-Choice. It is about privacy and freedom.

[Jakes Progress]

399. You may support

charters all you want. But don't pretend that they are helping improve education for all children. Supporting a system that helps your child at the expense of money and teachers for other children is not exactly altruistic.

And don't think that the few charters that work will ever get funding once the corporations begin taking over. How much lobby money do you and your friends have compared to GE? Charter schools that work draw the funding, the best teachers, and the most involved parents out of the system. How is that supposed to help? It will help your kid, but it damns the rest.

You want more charters - okay. But at least admit that your are taking care of your own and stop saying how they help American education. I speak from experience. I worked with four of the best charter schools in the country. We sucked the dedicated teachers from the system and our work was used as an excuse to put another layer of inane testing on the general school system (after of course the board members gamed the system to get their kids in our schools). Once we saw this, most of the teachers I worked with felt used and abused.

It's not "kind of" like being pro-choice. It's more like - "I got mine; too hell with you."

[mzteris]

312. excuse me?

Do you think we're trolls?

Come on over to the HS FORUM here on DU. Yeah, we have a homeschool FORUM - and get to know us.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

[Jakes Progress]

332. Excuse me.

You really have no idea who you're talking to.

I'm a major national consultant to home school programs. I've taught many parents how to fill in the enormous gaps that occur when people who lack training take on a task they do not comprehend. I've worked with the parents who have Yale scholar children and those who produced zombies who cannot function in society. Honest, public minded parents of the former help me work with the parents of the latter. The truth is that home schooling works at about the same rate as public schools or private schools. That is not the argument here.

The discussion underway is the steady attack on America's public schools by corporate interests that want public funding of their private schools, government contracts secured by high paid lobbyists.

I have no problem with a parent home schooling. They are the ones responsible. They and their children must live with the results.

Do you support withdrawing public funding of schools?

[mzteris]

336. "home school programs"

bleh.

My first advice to any new homeschooler is to NOT BUY A CANNED CURRICULUM!

No, I don't support withdrawing public funding of schools. I support public schools - must I keep repeating myself. I don't hate PS. I think the concept is great. I think the practice is not-so-great for a whole damn lot of places. BTW - Most Charter schools ARE public schools.

I think Charters do serve the public in ways that traditional PS's cannot. They benefit the kids and the communities.

I don't care "who you are" - it seems you don't understand Charter school systems any better than the other CS/HS opponents.

[Jakes Progress]

393. Bleh, yourself.

Nowhere in my post did I say that if wrote or endorsed canned curriculum. (Shouting is rude.) I work with teachers and parents to help parents understand how learning takes place. Most of my work is to remedy work done by parents who buy half-assed, one-size-fits-all programs that are touted at the HS conventions and web sites. For instance I would help parents understand that jumping to conclusions based on inner impulses is not conducive to productive thinking. You end up down the wrong track and miss things.

I'm glad you support public schools. Most do a decent job of educating the wide array of children in their halls. They are underfunded and poorly equipped to handle the edges. Some of that is because of the size of the systems; some of it is because there are those who want them to do poorly.

The super-sized school concept is an industrialized idea that bigger is better even though there is no evidence to prove that this helps with schools. But it is cheaper to cram kids together and to cut the curriculum and standardize. That is at the request of parents - tax payers who profess a love for children and support for schools, but demand lower and lower taxes rather than pay for what they say they want. In this case public schools are not the creator of society but the reflection of it. The solution is to educate the public. Campaign for more money and more schools - not fewer. Withdrawing from the schools if you know what the problem is is not helping. Engaging the school board, the PTA, and elected officials is the way to improve schools and return to us what is being taken away.

Then there are the corporations that want to ruin public schools so that the public will demand tax support for "choice". This process is working for those conglomerates that are banking on Charter schools and a deeply flawed test prep curriculum to "prove" the need for their intervention. Sure, a few Charters help some children. The majority fail to meet minimum needs. But the ones that get the press, that do a good job are not analogous to the problems of the public system. For several years I worked with four very well-designed and successful Charters. I was lead trainer for teachers at two. We drew the finest teachers from the classrooms of the public system. We helped them be successful and they worked joyfully. But some of us watched the media, fed by the corporate structure, use our success as a reason to demean and belittle the harried and under-supported teachers working in the larger district. We though we would be used as a proving ground for innovative methodologies. Instead, board members finagled to get their children in our schools and the cut the budges to other schools so they could keep the taxes low and get re-elected. By serving three hundred children, our work was making education less available to thousands.

I don't care if you don't care who I am. Your deductive logic that concludes that I don't understand either Charter Schools or the Home Schooling systems is flawed. I hope that you have a nice program in logic for teaching your kids. You are the one who does not understand.

[mzteris]

432. can you provide stats on this?

"Sure, a few Charters help some children. The majority fail to meet minimum needs. "

I'm sorry the system you worked in had crooked School Board members. Ah, those elected officials. . . they screwed my kid IN the public school system. They sat there and told me that the Principal (of any school) was more qualified to decide what was better for my (or any) child than any parent!

That was simply ludicrous. We could have taken it to court, and could have won by subpeoning the teachers and other school admin who were afraid of the principal and wouldn't come to the school board meeting. But, I figured by then what was the point, my kid was absolutely miserable and the teachers would have punished him even more because the principal would have punished THEM even more. That's when we made the decision to just homeschool. We worked within the system for as long as we could, but when the principal lies to the school board, and the assistant superintendent backs her up, and claims she investigated the situation when she most assuredly did not, and when the teachers are afraid to speak up, (and the idiot Superintendent of schools had the audacity of accusing my then-husband of being racist - who quickly recanted when hubby took out a picture of our kids and said, "really? How about taking a look at my SON!" doh. . . (my youngest is African American)

anyway, but I digress.

I really don't understand the ire against Charters. Some are crap, of course. Some PS's are crap. Some hs'ers are blithering idiots. Some Parochial and some Private schools are crap. But I'm here to tell you that the Charters that I'm familiar with, including those that friends children attend, are all very successful and doing an excellent job of educating children and improving the community.

In Wake County, the PSchools are chronically over-crowded. Every school has trailers in the back for kids. Mandatory year-round for many of the schools (I approve of year-round, too, btw.) If all the Charters closed and/or people stopped hs'ing, they wouldn't be able to have room for them all. The Charters there are very good and very successful. Yeah, there were some false starts and some failures, but the ones that have sustained are great.

I think a lot has to do with the way the regs are written in each state. The Charter can only be as good as the law allows, or as bad as the law allows.

[Hannah Bell]

455. North Carolina. My first hit for "charter schools" there is the John Locke Foundation,

a right wing/libertarian think tank saying how great they were, especially for black students.

My second:

A study on charter schools in North Carolina suggests that performance must improve before anymore are established in the state.

Report: N.C. Charter Schools Need Improvement, More Diversity

Posted: Jun 6, 2007

Raleigh, N.C. — North Carolina's 100-school cap on charter schools should remain in place, at least until student performance improves and the schools are more racially integrated, a nonpartisan organization said Wednesday.

In examining data from the alternate public schools that first opened 10 years ago this fall, the North Carolina Center for Public Policy Research also said financial troubles at some schools remain worrisome and that their innovative curricula have failed to carry over to traditional schools.

"When we looked at 10 years' worth of data on all the charter schools, that's when we found that 53 percent of them were finishing in those bottom three categories on academic performance under the state ABC accountability testing system," said Ran Coble, the center's director. "Because most of them are doing not as well as traditional public schools, it's a reason to slow down and say, 'Don't expand the experiment before you've got something that works.'"

The report likely will build confidence among education groups skeptical of charter schools, which are run by private boards and administrators and don't have to follow all the regulations imposed on traditional public schools. They receive roughly $200 million in public money annually and don't charge tuition.


***And who's quoted for the other team in this article? Why, the John Locke Foundation!****


"Predictably, the report does not address the growing demand for charter schools," said Terry Stoops, an education policy analyst at the conservative-leaning John Locke Foundation in Raleigh. "Poll after poll shows that a majority of North Carolinians want more charter schools."

Charter schools also don't appear to "reasonably reflect the racial and ethnic composition" of the school districts where they are, the report said.

While North Carolina's population is almost 22 percent black, 39 of the 99 charter schools during 2005-06 had a nonwhite population that exceeded 50 percent. The student population at 14 of the schools was more than 95 percent black, the report said.



Glad it's working so well for *your* kid, though. Doesn't seem to be an improvement for *most* peoples' kids, with over half of charters at the bottom of the ratings barrel, even with the advantage of deregulation & those "innovative" methods.

[Hannah Bell]

456. Studies suggest that students in (NC) charter schools do not perform as well

as traditional public school students on academic benchmarks such as end-of-grade testing.

“Only 55 percent of students in charter high schools graduate on time, as opposed to 68 percent in regular public schools,” said Ran Coble, executive director of the N.C. Center for Public Policy Research.

“We found that 27 of the 138 charters granted had been revoked for management or financial reasons,” Coble said.

“One school in Wake County kept such poor books that they couldn’t even be audited, and students didn’t attend class for more than an hour a day.”

http://www.dailytarheel.com/2.6423/online_exclusives/n.c._general_assembly_discusses_removing_limit_on_charter_school_numbers-1.1598715



***In 1998, NC charters had an easier mix of pupils, got more money from the feds, get a special exemption from caps on special ed funds, spent *way* more on administration, less on classroom instruction, than regular schools did - & had higher student/teacher ratios.




In 1997-98, the typical charter school (in NC) enrolled 131 students, of which 33 percent were low-income students compared to 36 percent in the host school district.

Special education students comprised 12.7 percent of enrollment in the typical charter school compared to 14.2 percent in host school districts.

Charter schools spent an average of $160 per pupil (inmembership, not just special education) on special education, while host school districts spent $485 per pupil.

Charter schools spent $1,262 per pupil on administration, three times the $457 per pupil spent by school districts.

Facilities costs for charter schools averaged about $200 per pupil less than host school districts.

Charter school instructional services, averaging $2,674 per pupil, fell $1,000 per pupil below the $3,685 per pupil spent by host school districts.

The pupil-to-teacher ratio averaged 15.1 compared to 12.1 in host districts. Averaging $517 per pupil, federal revenue was double the host school district average of $237 per pupil.

Host school district revenue, averaging $6,308 per pupil, topped charter school revenue of $6,088 per pupil.

Differences in spending for special education and food service could alone more than account for the $300 per-pupil revenue differential.

The state board authorizes almost all charter schools and, generally, charter schools operate autonomously.

The schools file their own independent audits and engage in financial transactions (e.g., borrowing, purchasing and leasing).

Some schools establish separate, nonprofit foundations to raise funds and purchase property. State funding flows directly to charter schools, and charter schools obtain federal funds as if they were independent school districts.

By the end of the year, 17 schools incurred deficits and six schools never opened their doors for a second school year. Rapid growth probably led to the high failure rate more than poor funding.

Though getting no dedicated facilities funding, North Carolina 237School districts and the University of North Carolina can authorize charter schools. Pre-existing public schools may covert to charter school status, but conversions are rare.


North Carolina is the only state in our study where special education revenue for charter schools exceeded special education costs (by a margin of 60 percent).

North Carolina is also the one state in our study where charter schools paid more for transportation than their host school district.

As in many southern states, North Carolina school districts are fiscal units of counties or major cities. The state, however, provides approximately 60 percent of total revenue. Charter schools receive the state per-pupil allocation of operating funds the state distributes to the school district in which charter school students reside, minus state funding for special education.

The state adds back special education funding according to the number of special education students actually enrolled in the charter school. Although state and county funding is determined by the funding characteristics of the resident districts of students, most charter schools enroll all of their students from a single county because school districts are so large.

School district operating funds include state financial support for vocational education, gifted education, transportation and at-risk programs. Charter schools automatically get this funding but need not expend monies for these programs.

Except for federal funding, special education and facilities funding, charter schools obtain school district average funding whether or not the school enrolls the particular students or provides the programs that generate these funds.

From a legal perspective, charter schools must provide the necessary special education services as required by state and federal special education rules.

In practice, charter schools have limited resources (human and financial) and may not be able to afford a full range of services for special needs students. Charter schools obtain the school district’s per-pupil average in special education revenue for each special needs student actually enrolled in the school. Funding for charter schools ranged from $1,763 to $2,346 per special needs student, the same range of average funding as school districts.

North Carolina caps special education funding when school districts count 12.5 percent of students in special education to eliminate the financial incentive to identify more children as handicapped.

Charter school funding for special education is not capped, however, so charter schools with a high proportion of special education students get the needed funding.

Despite serving nearly equal populations of special education students and obtaining the same funding per student for these purposes, charter schools spent just one-third the state average on special education.

North Carolina’s small charter schools had higher pupil-to-teacher ratios and devoted proportionately more personnel to administration.

Charter schools averaged 131 students, but the pupil-to-teacher ratio of 15.1 exceeded the 12.1 pupil-to-teacher ratio in host school districts.

Charter schools employed 2.2 administrators per 100 students—more than four times that of host school districts, which employed only 0.5 administrators per 100 students.

However, host school districts employed 2.8 FTE support staff for every 100 students compared to just 1.4 FTE support staff per 100 students in the typical charter school.

The average charter school booked $220 per pupil less in funding than host school districts, which raised revenue averaging $6,308 per pupil. Charter schools received no facilities funding from either the state or counties, which averaged $658 per pupil in host school districts. Food service alone could explain the $220 per pupil of the revenue gap between charter schools and school districts.

Federal revenue of $517 per pupil in charter schools exceeded federal funds for host school districts averaging $237 per pupil.Spending patterns of North Carolina charter schools resemble those in other states except for transportation.

Charter schools devoted 43 percent of expenditures to regular instruction and special programs, while school districts devoted 49 percent of spending to these areas.

Charter schools consumed 24.1 percent of spending on administration, business support services and central support services. The state average for school districts in the same three categories totaled 8.4 percent of spending.

North Carolina is the only state in our study where charter school expenditures for transportation (5.2 percent of spending) exceeded school district costs (4.0 percent of spending).



Oh, they sound soooooo much better. 24% on administration? Taking special ed $$ & giving it to administration?

http://www.aft.org/topics/charters/downloads/NC.pdf.

[Hannah Bell]

457. NC Charters fail to improve student learning. Good at segregation, though

The N.C. Center for Public Policy Research, in analyzing whether the state should allow the number of charter schools to increase, revisits six goals that were laid out for charter schools in the enabling legislation.

The Center finds charter schools have met or partially met three of the six goals.

The three areas of success for charter schools are
(1) giving teachers expanded professional opportunities,
(2) being held accountable on performance-based tests, and
(3) providing parents expanded choice for their children’s education.

However, 47 of the state’s 100 counties still do not have a charter school, so this third goal has only been partially met.

Charters have yet to prove themselves on the other three goals:

(4) improving student learning,
(5) increasing learning opportunities for all students, with a special emphasis on at-risk or gifted students, and
(6) providing innovative teaching that can be adapted to the traditional public schools.

While some students excel in charters, charter schools as a whole are not performing as well as the public schools.

So far, charters also have not proven they are better at serving at-risk students.

And, the state’s own Charter School Evaluation Report found little evidence of new forms of instruction that had not been tried in the traditional public schools.

The Center identified three key weaknesses that prevent it from endorsing expansion of the charter school movement in North Carolina. These are

(1) academic performance, where charters lag the traditional public schools,

(2) racial diversity, in that too many schools do not comply with a state law requiring that charter schools reasonably reflect the racial make-up of their local school districts, and

(3) concerns about fiscal management, which already has contributed to the closure of at least eight schools.


http://www.nccppr.org/CharterSchools.htm.

[mzteris]

461. racial integerated - because the most charters have a

preponderance of non-whites.

Charters attract families whose children are NOT PERFORMING WELL in the public school system, so it's to be understood that their "test scores" will reflect that the kids going IN to those schools are "behind" (due to the PS). Also, charters don't "teach to the test" having better things to do.

******

February 25, 2009
*H288-v-1* : AN ACT TO REMOVE THE CAP ON THE NUMBER OF CHARTER SCHOOLS.

02/24/2009 House Filed
02/25/2009 House Passed 1st Reading
02/25/2009 House Ref to the Com on Education, if favorable, Appropriations


*******
Carolina Journal Exclusives
December 22, 2008
For Charter Schools in N.C., High Demand and Long Waits
More than 15,000 students wait for open spots in public schools of choice

By Kristen Blair
". . .At least 15,000 students are on 2008-09 charter school wait lists, CJfound. State numbers indicate the total is even larger. According to Jack Moyer, director of North Carolina’s Office of Charter Schools, 16,900 students are on charter school wait lists, or were not granted admission because of space constraints. That figure represents more than half of the 31,000 students who attended N.C. charter schools in 2007-08. . ."

*********

North Carolina’s charter schools are home to roughly the same percentage of minority and low-income students as conventional public schools, and they serve a higher percentage of special education students than non-charter public schools. This, combined with their student achievement, paints a bright picture of progress in the Tarheel State.

North Carolina charter school students, like those at conventional public schools, are evaluated using the Accountability in Basics (ABC) exam. The results show that at most grade levels, charter school students perform at a level equivalent to their peers at conventional schools even though charters receive approximately $1,200 less funding per pupil (about 86 percent), while spending a greater percentage of their funding on facilities and maintenance. (because they don't receive capital expenditure funding from the state).

Charter school students fared particularly well in reading proficiency as assessed by the ABC. In sixth grade, 83 percent of both charter school and conventional school students achieved proficient or advanced levels in reading, while in eighth grade this number jumped to 87 percent. Fifty-three percent of charter schools made federal progress targets in 200757 and nearly eight percent of charter schools achieved the Honors School of Excellence standing, which is the highest grade on the state test, compared with 3.5 percent of conventional public schools. Some exceptional charters have been recognized by national rankings. Raleigh Charter was number 20 of 100 on the U.S. News and World Report ranking of top high schools in the U.S."


********

If all the Charter schools in Wake County closed (and/OR the homeschoolers quit) - the County would not be able to house and educate themn all. Ever single tradtional public school in the county has TRAILERS to house students. OVercrowding abounds and they just can't build new schools fast enough. So WakeCounty LOVES charter schools - they fill a desperate need for the community.

[Fire1]

317. Jakes Progress, this is one of two posts that's the best I've

read in a while. It's sad but true. People can't even see when they're being manipulated. I can see it now: "what elementary school you go to? Response: Nabisco Elementary. What High school do you attend? Citigroup High! What Middle school do you attend? General Mills Middle! ROFLMAO!!!:rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

333. Funny were it not so true.

MadFlo is unfortunately right. We will lose public schools in the United States. The corporations want it to happen, so they will buy what they want.

It is just so sad that well-meaning, but clueless progressives will take that bait.

[madfloridian]

326. Yes, they have succeeded very well.

It really was easy to present the schools as failures and then it was easy to do other things than honest to goodness public schools.

Madfloridian, losing friends and not influencing thinking.

But at least it got some attention.

:eyes:

[Fire1sKid]

328. Now accepting applications for Kellog High School, LMAO!!

[mzteris]

340. having threads deleted

because they prove you don't know what you're talking about is a pretty chickenst thing to do.

[Hannah Bell]

352. huh? prove the poster "had your thread deleted" because you'd "proved she didn't know what she was

talking about".

accusing people without evidence is pretty chickenshit too.

[mzteris]

359. kinda hard to do now that the thread's gone, now ain't it?

:rofl:

Sbe cried "attack attack" when there patently was none except on the flimsy and poorly supported arguments.

[Hannah Bell]

388. likewise hard to prove what you say is true - or that she "had the thread pulled".

you don't know that. it could have just as easily been pulled because you were rude, she was, or some other reason.

you made an accusation with no evidence on either count. ask the mods why it was pulled. i doubt they'll say "'madinflorida' told us to pull it because 'mzteris' made her look bad, & we are soooo in 'madinflorida's pocket."

i notice you've apparently had a few threads pulled yourself, in that case.

pot.

[madfloridian]

394. They deleted a whole subthread.

It included me and others.

I did not even know it until this person called attention to it.

I was not rude, but others were. My posts got deleted anyway.

I am going to continue to post the truth as I see it about the privatization of education right under our noses.

[Hannah Bell]

397. yes, they've deleted quite A few, i'm noticing.

[mzteris]

438. one of mine with her

one of hers with someone else -

so who's the common factor?

I was most definitely NOT rude to her, unless you call proving that she didn't know a damn thing of what she was talking about rude . . . :rofl:

and I know she's the one who asked for the thread to be deleted, so now I know something else about her, too. and so do you . . and so does everyone else.

edit typo and added 5 words.

[mzteris]

436. what IS your deal, anyway?

I'm not in the habit of lying you know. And I know exactly what was said in those threads. If you don't want to believe me, that's your perogative, but I'm here to tell you that that is EXACTLY what happened.

[Hannah Bell]

458. no, i don't know, because i don't know you except by your posts here.

how is it you *know* the poster got your post pulled, hmmm?

i think *you* got one of mine pulled.

[mzteris]

463. the only people I alert on are those

who are grossly rude, attacking, or use the most crass and vulgar language (usually to describe women) - have you done any of those things?

I don't remember seeing you before this thread, and I haven't in here, so I think not.

At any rate, yeah, I "know" it was her. . .

[KamaAina]

343. Charters were supposed to supplement traditional public schools, not replace them

which is what we see happening in New Orleans. On top of that, all but a handful of the few remaining non-charter public schools have been taken over by the state through the Recovery School District (RSD).

preferably non-poor 6th graders without learning difficulties or other special needs.

Guess where the special needs students end up?? If you said "the RSD schools", you get a gold star!

[mzteris]

350. and they do.. .

N.O is not your typical example at this time, now is it?

[KamaAina]

351. That it is not, but it could be a foretaste of what's coming.

:scared:

[mzteris]

346. DEMOCRATS first proposed Charters . . .

There goes the racist republican theory. . .

In 1991, Minnesota became the first state to enact charter school legislation. Introduced by Democratic state senator Ember Reichgott Junge in 1989, the Minnesota charter school law was designed to give parents greater flexibility in defining and managing education.

A California charter school law became the second in the country in 1992. It was introduced by Democratic state senator Gary K. Hart to offset a pending California state voucher ballot initiative.

[Hannah Bell]

356. and in your mind this proves - what?

you have some illusion democrats don't work for business interests?


Ember Reichgott Junge’s “momentum” aided by Republican funders

An in-depth analysis of Ember Reichgott Junge’s July 15 FEC disclosure reveals that Junge is funded by twenty-five donors who have no or little history giving to Democratic candidates. These donors have collectively contributed $233,400 since 2000 to Republican candidates, committees and PACs.

The recipients of these funds range from Mark Kennedy ($29,600) to George W. Bush ($13,500). Even the National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC), the committee “devoted to increasing the number of Republicans in Congress” has benefited ($18,600) from the same donors who are backing Junge.

Other candidates who received contributions are Tom Delay, Rick Santorum, Norm Coleman, John Kline, Ted Stevens and Roy Blunt.

Other committees and PACs who were given donations are the MNGOP, Minnesotans for a Republican Congress Committee, the Rally for Leadership Fund (John Kline), Club for Growth, Every Republican is Crucial PAC and the Majority Initiative to Keep Electing Republicans.


http://www.blanked-out.com/2006/08/20/ember-reichgott-junges-momentum-aided-by-republican-funders/



Ember Reichgott Junge funding link: charter schools
Why are Republican donors, including a Bush Pioneer, contributing to Ember Reichgott Junge’s campaign for Congress?

For some of Ember’s Republican supporters, including Bush Pioneer J.C. Huizenga , the answer may lie with Junge’s position as a nationally recognized proponent of charter schools.

In 1991, Junge made history by authoring and passing the nation’s first charter school legislation.

J.C. Huizenga is founder and chairman of National Heritage Academies (NHA), a for-profit educational management company based in Grand Rapids, MI. NHA was sued by the Michigan ACLU who accused NHA for evangelizing in the classroom and teaching creationism as science.

John Sackler, a Republican donor who has given considerable funds to George W. Bush, the RNC, Ted Stevens, Joe Lieberman and Ember Reichgott Junge can be seen here testifying for Connecticut’s General Assembly in support of charter schools.

In the “Education” section of Junge’s campaign website charter schools are never mentioned. Under the section labeled “The Gift of Public Service”, charter schools are mentioned once in item 6.


However, the section used to link to this page which featured charter schools prominently.


Why is Junge actively downplaying her support of charter schools?

[mzteris]

365. yall are the ones claiming it's all racist Republicans . . .

lots of Dems have puke supporters as well as the other way around. Corporations always play both ends against the middle, doncha know.

Or maybe you didn't. :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

369. yes, i did. seems you don't know, though.

cause you're the one being played.

[mzteris]

370. Is the American Federation of Teachers being played?

The American Federation of Teachers strongly supports charter schools that embody the core values of public education and a democratic society: equal access for all students; high academic standards; accountability to parents and the public; a curriculum that promotes good citizenship; a commitment to helping all public schools improve; and a commitment to the employees' right to freely choose union representation.

Charter schools are publicly funded schools that are granted autonomy from some state and local regulations in exchange for meeting the terms of each school's charter. State laws, which vary widely, govern who can authorize charters, who can apply for them, and the total number allowed. Today, there are more than 4,000 charter schools across 40 states and the District of Columbia, enrolling more than 1 million children.

Charter Schools Can Empower Teachers

In a landmark address in 1988, former AFT President Albert Shanker became one of the first education leaders to champion the concept of charter schools. Shanker envisioned teacher-led laboratories of reform that would experiment with new instructional practices. These practices would then be subjected to rigorous evaluation and, if successful, serve as models for other public schools.

Shanker also saw charter schools as a way to empower teachers, free them from overly bureaucratic regulations, and strengthen their voice in school and curriculum decision-making. In his view, unions were essential to charter schools, because unions help create the kind of secure work environment that encourages innovation and risk-taking.

The AFT and Charter Schools Today

The AFT believes strongly in Shanker's vision and the vital connection between charter schools and unions. In fact, the AFT represents charter school teachers and support staff in 10 states. Our largest affiliate, the United Federation of Teachers in New York City, operates two charter schools of its own and is partnering with innovative charter school operator Green Dot to run a third school in the fall of 2008.

Many teachers and staff in unionized charter schools report high levels of job satisfaction, noting that they benefit from the best of both worlds: the protections and rights of a union and the freedom and flexibility of a charter.

Charter Schools: Realizing the Promise

Charter schools hold promise as engines of innovation and reform, but just as there are good and bad public schools, there are good and bad charter schools. Unfortunately, some charter school operators stifle input, exploit their staff, and put profit ahead of students' needs. Teachers working in poorly managed charter schools are the first to acknowledge this reality.

The AFT believes that responsible charter school management must be both transparent and accountable. Among other standards, charter schools should:

* Be tuition-free, not-for-profit, and open to all students on an equal basis. Charter schools shouldn't use selective admissions to "cherry pick" top performers. And, just like other public schools, they should serve special needs students and English language learners.
* Operate transparently by fully disclosing their finances, curriculum, student demographics and academic outcomes to parents and the public. Charter schools, like other public schools, also should be subject to ongoing public input and oversight.
* Meet or exceed the same academic standards and assessment requirements that apply to other public schools.
* Hire well-qualified teachers—either certified teachers or those on a pathway to certification.
* Work cooperatively with local school districts. One of the goals of charter schools is to try out new instructional practices so that the lessons learned can be used to improve all public schools. This sharing of ideas should be a two-way street, with innovations coming from regular public schools too.
* Permit their employees to freely form unions. A strong teacher voice supported by a union is essential to achieving fairness in the workplace and improving academic outcomes. Charter school teachers and staff should be able to choose union representation in a timely and straightforward process.

The Bottom Line: What Happens in the Classroom Matters Most

Frontline educators know that there's no silver bullet for improved student learning. Simply changing a school's governance structure-for example, from regular public to charter, or from charter to regular public—does not magically lead to better results. Regardless of the type of school (regular public, charter or private), what happens in the school and in the classroom matters most.

Research shows that all schools have the best chance to succeed when they foster safe and orderly environments conducive to learning; have manageable class sizes; value quality teaching; offer ample and effective professional development; feature a challenging, content-rich curriculum; and use proven, research-based instructional practices.

Schools also succeed when teachers and staff have a strong voice in school operations. For decades, the AFT has helped educators expand their influence as school leaders and decision-makers. That commitment extends to charter school teachers and staff, who deserve the same rights and responsibilities.

Date Last Updated: May 6, 2008
http://www.aft.org/topics/charters/

[Hannah Bell]

382. I think you don't know much about Shanker. Or the AFT, or history,

or how controlled opposition is used to divide workers.

"Shanker's true interests became evident during the 1975 New York City financial crisis. There were cataclysmic cutbacks in all city services. For public education this meant the closing of nearly 100 schools, shortened school days, layoffs of nearly 10,000 teachers, and large salary deferrals. When confronted by an angry membership, Shanker allowed a strike to begin, but his intent was to do nothing to insure its success. Instead of leading a struggle against the financial blackmailers and rich real estate interests that had caused the crisis, he put his main effort into convincing the demoralized membership to accept that there were no alternatives to the massive cutbacks. After the strike's failure, he even agreed to loan the city hundreds of millions of dollars from the Teacher's Retirement System. The long lasting impact of his sellout of the strike was that more than 30 years later the UFT has never called another strike and never misses an opportunity to remind teachers of what happened during the 1975 strike as a lesson to be learned.

If Kahlenberg had been a teacher from the late 1960s through the 70s, he would have seen first hand how Shanker used every trick in the book to shut out all opposition voices that called for alliances with other municipal unions to fight against cutbacks in services and fight for an overhaul of municipal tax policy that gave away tax abatements to wealthy corporations, while the city's bondholders got away with usurious interest rates. Shanker's maneuverings prevented thousands of teachers opposed to the Vietnam War from debating the UFT and AFT policy of backing the huge military budget and the war, money that could have been used to fully fund every school system in the country; and from debating Shanker's push for AFT/AFL-CIO involvement in foreign interventions to undermine unions that were considered "too left." Kahlenberg would have missed discussions an informed, engaged, and militant union should have been having; he would have missed them because they never took place.

Following the banking crisis and settlement, which left teachers and schools reeling, Shanker continued to be a shill for the business community, as he allowed the union contracts of the 1960s and early 70s to erode incrementally, leading to the present contract which is beyond recognition. Class size was no longer to be negotiated, and supportive services were increasingly optional. With each contract negotiation came the admonition from Shanker and his assistants: If we want higher paychecks we can't ask for better working conditions. Through the next two decades, through upswings and downswings in the national economy and rises and falls in New York City's financial health, there was never enough money for providing schools the basic funding needed to make all schools function successfully."

http://www.wpunj.edu/%5C%5C~newpol/issue45/Pavone-Scott45.htm.

[mzteris]

425. NEA, then . .

NEA believes that charter schools and other nontraditional public school options have the potential to facilitate education reforms and develop new and creative teaching methods that can be replicated in traditional public schools for the benefit of all children. Whether charter schools will fulfill this potential depends on how charter schools are designed and implemented, including the oversight and assistance provided by charter authorizers.


AFT - AFL-CIO affiliate... :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

453. be sure to put in the rest.

In 2004, the National Assessment Governing Board (NAGB) released an analysis of charter school performance on the 2003 National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), also known as The Nation's Report Card. The report found that charter school students, on average, score lower than students in traditional public schools.

NAGB looked at the impact of school characteristics and found that:

Charter schools that were part of the local school district had significantly higher scores than charter schools that served as their own district.

Students taught by certified teachers had roughly comparable scores whether they attended charter schools or traditional public schools, but the scores of students taught by uncertified teachers in charter schools were significantly lower than those of charter school students with certified teachers.

Students taught by teachers with at least five years' experience outperformed students with less experienced teachers, regardless of the type of school attended, but charter school students with inexperienced teachers did significantly worse than students in traditional public schools with less experienced teachers. (The impact of this finding is compounded by the fact that charter schools are twice as likely as traditional public schools to employ inexperienced teachers.)

In a study that followed North Carolina students for several years, professors Robert Bifulco and Helen Ladd found that students in charter schools actually made considerably smaller achievement gains in charter schools than they would have in traditional public schools.

Accountability Proves To Be Elusive

In its official evaluation of the federally funded Public Charter School Program, Evaluation of the Public Charter Schools Program: Final Report, the U.S. Department of Education found that many charter school authorizers lack the capacity to adequately oversee charter school operations, often lack authority to implement formal sanctions, and rarely invoke the authority they do have to revoke or not renew a charter. Where charters have been revoked or not renewed, the decision has been linked more to noncompliance with state and federal regulations and financial problems than with academic performance.

Accountability is also lacking in oversight for federal charter school programs. According to a report by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), Charter Schools: To Enhance Education's Monitoring and Research, More Charter School-Level Data Are Needed, released in January 2005, the U.S. Department of Education has little data to ensure that charter schools receive the federal funds that have been allocated to them in a timely manner, or to evaluate the performance of those schools.

GAO recommended that the U.S. Department of Education collect basic data from recipients of federal charter school funds, such as the number of charter schools actually opened with program funds.

[madfloridian]

363. Yes, it was the main goal of the DLC. I wrote about it here.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3739

[bridgit]

383. California is a little different, especially living with the effects of Prop 13 cyphoning...

a great deal of funding since the 70's, and not just from schools & education but from many tax based budget considerations though that is a far cry different from the likes of these < Katrina funds earmarked to pay for Neil Bush's software program < Grants to Bennett's K12 Inc. challenged

[mzteris]

434. god, Bush and Bennet

two people who should be jailed. . .

Though Bush's stuff has definitely found it's way into the PUBLIC school system, too. . .


edit typo. doh.

[KamaAina]

427. How would merit pay be determined fairly under these circumstances?

And no one wants fourth graders or eighth graders in particular, since children in these grades have to take the high-stakes LEAP test, and where the peristaltic bulges of failed children are the largest.

At least in Louisiana (other states may have different testing schedules), this would seem to imply that fourth- and eighth-grade teachers would be behind the eight ball when it came time to evaluate them for merit pay.

[No.23]

444. Sheeze! Y'all are sure making the elite proud.

Doin' exactly what they want you to.

Fighting for the scraps that are thrown to public education (traditional versus nontraditional).

When the the fat cow of the military industrial complex is getting the bulk of the feed.

*shakes his head*

No wonder they have such an easy lock on the land.

We're too busy fighting each other for scraps.

Until enough people wake up, that is.

Until enough people wake up and assert that they're not accepting scraps anymore.