No Atheists in Foxholes

[Sheepshank]

I was reading through the interesting thread regarding atheism and politics. It reminded me of a recent debate I had with a co-worker who reminded me (at least so he thought), that given the right situation, everyone falls on their knees and begs God for forgiveness and mercy. I called bull. He told me that war in particular brings about mass conversions. I personally believe that many lose their faith as a result of seeing the fruits of war.

[The Straight Story]

1. If I were an atheist....

I would hedge my bets in the foxhole :) Convert privately and if I died I am in, if I don't no one would ever know and I would go back to being atheist :rofl:

[Silent3]

15. Hedging your bets? How do you know you won't piss off Odin?

After all, he was prepared to forgive you for not believing in him since you didn't believe in any gods at all, but then you screwed it up by offering your devotion to that false Abrahamic god, and he sends you straight to Hel? (Yes, only one L.)

[Odin2005]

22. You rang?

:evilgrin:

(Love your sig, BTW!)

[BlooInBloo]

56. Pascal's argument was stupid when he wrote it, and it remains just as stupid.

[Smith_3]

59. Wasn't Pascal's intent actually to expose that argument as stupid?

[BlooInBloo]

64. Nope. I forget which Pensee "The Wager" was, though - been too long.

There was a bit more to his story, however.

He regarded his pragmatic argument as a way to get RATIONAL people in the fold in the first place. Pragmatics weren't sufficient for salvation, by his lights, however. But once in the fold, initially on purely practical grounds, Pascal maintained that one would naturally develop all of the qualities that were relevant to receiving gawd's grace, up to and including True Faith.

In short, Pascal told us to "fake it til you make it", so far as faith is concerned.

[FreakinDJ]

2. From some one who has been in Foxholes

or fire bases in jungles to be more precise - its true

sorry

[ensho]

4. true for you - not true for others

nt

[leeroysphitz]

11. wrong.

When the scud alerts began in GWI I didn't pray. I remembered my training, took cover and got my MOPP gear on in less than a minute flat and went on with my job. All without the slightest need for any invisible boogey men up in the sky.

Sorry.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bertman]

80. From someone who has never been in a foxhole but was behind paddy dikes, in bomb

craters, in helicopters, and in bunkers when the shit was thick, it was NOT TRUE for me.

Sorry.

[cobalt1999]

3. I usually reply that "Only believers die in foxholes then"

If there are no atheists in wars, then God only kills his followers.

[ensho]

5. kick

nt

[valerief]

18. Ha! Great conclusion! nt

[immoderate]

30. I say, "Atheists are too smart to get stuck in a foxhole."

--imm

[Idir]

6. That is religulous!

On a certain blog I'm subscribed to, there's been a discussion about the more probable situation of atheists in ditches (in their cars, obviously) and the blogger claimed that while she was afraid, she didn't really resort to believe in a higher deity to comfort her.
The same happened to me a few days ago, and it was the same for me.
I had some friendly hands that stopped on the emergency lane and helped me, and that was it.

The Hudson plane crash pilot didn't pray during that period, either.

[Lost in CT]

12. Well the Hudson plane crash pilot was busy flying the plane...

as far as I know there is no knowledge of his religious beliefs.

[Obamanaut]

52. In response to a question on one of the morning talk shows as to

whether he did a silent prayer, he said words to the effect that he was real busy but imagined some of the passengers were taking care of that.

[Sal316]

7. As a result of WWI...

....theological liberalism (Schliermacher) died and Neo-Orthodoxy was born (Barth).

It's not necessarily true that many lose their faith per fruits of war. In times of duress, the faithful tend to swing back towards orthodoxy and fundamentalism as they feel they're losing control over everything around them.

[stray cat]

8. Who wants to volunteer for a study to test their hypothesis?

The miliatary needs voluneteers. However, those who have served and been close to death in foxholes have already come up with their own personal answer and their answers should count without additional testing.

[FreakinDJ]

41. Nicely said - "Too Bad the atheist won't take your offer"

until they face their time they'll continue to act like "Little Boys, Whistling in the Dark"

[sce56]

67. Wrong! I have done my time and not necessarily in a fox hole since I was a REMF

But a person with a brain who understands that there is no way a Human and a Dinosaur ever walked the earth at the same time will not believe in that book of fairy tales! If there was such a thing as GOD and he was so powerful all seeing and knowing how would he allow people to do such evil in his name!
Religion is nothing but superstitions and old wives tales wrapped up in a cloth to make you feel good about things that our ancient ancestors never could explain due to their lack of scientific knowledge! Why did not God or his prophets tell man that the earth was not the center of the solar system let alone the universe? Why did he allow people to be persecuted for having beliefs contrary to the Church Doctrine which preached the earth was flat and Columbus would fall off the edge if he went to far! Wake up this is modern the world we live in we no longer need to pray to the god of rain or corn or war or fertility we now have the knowledge to explain life's mysteries with out reverting to old wives tales!

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQ4MTA5NTMyM15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNjE1OTc1MQ@@._V1._CR0,0,1500,1500_SS100_.jpg http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTIxMDcxMTA3M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzk5NzU2MQ@@._V1._CR0,0,1382,1382_SS100_.jpg http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTUyNjM5ODc3N15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDkwNzUyMg@@._V1._CR0,0,359,359_SS100_.jpg

[pipi_k]

51. The key words...

people have "come up with their own personal answer".

Which is valid enough, IMO.

Some people go into war/foxholes being non believers and come out the opposite

Some go into war/foxholes being believers and come out the opposite

Personal experiences.

And it's just not true that there are NO atheists in foxholes. A person might pray, but that doesn't mean he's been converted in his heart. Especially if he sees his buddy next to him get blown away in a big bloody splat of bones and guts and he feels he's been betrayed by God.

As I pointed out below, my father became an atheist because of the foxholes and the horrors of WWII, some of which he told me, and others...probably more painful to him...which he kept private till the day he died.

[Marr]

9. I've never been in a foxhole, but I've been on the edge of death a couple of times.

Once while rock climbing, when through my own lack of planning and over confidence, I ended up in the position of betting my life that a small stick would hold in the rock face. Once when a man had a gun on me. I'm an atheist, and I didn't resort to asking for god's help in either circumstance-- though I can't imagine who would. I mean, terror really boils all of existence down to you and your problem.

[stray cat]

14. I think it might depend on how much time you had - if you survive long enough

However, in an acute situation like you describe - I wouldn't be thinking of anything else but the immediate task at hand - thats for sure!

If I were a passenger in a plane going in for a crash landing after circling for an hour to get rid of excess fuel - I probably would start reflecting on my life and its end - especially if I didn't have a cell phone to call loved ones.

[RagAss]

10. Unless you weren't culturally introduced to a god.

[tularetom]

13. Never been in a foxhole and I'm not an atheist but

I was in a situation once when I thought my son and I were both about to die. And I can honestly say the last thing I thought about was God. The only thing in my mind was how to get him safe. He was about 8 years old at the time.

Since God is "omnipotent", he knows when you're faking it anyway. He's not gonna be fooled by any last minute foxhole conversions.

Conversely, if God were so gullible or insecure that he buys these kinds of panicky protestations he wouldn't be very powerful.

[Sal Minella]

29. This must be the same god that was "kicked out of the schools," as St. Ronnie said

when the Supreme Court came down against forced prayer in schools.

Even back then, I felt bad for the people who believed in a "god" so puny that nine old men could kick him around like that.

[Ezlivin]

16. 'Cause atheists are out of the foxhole getting the job done

...not cowering in fear and pleading to an invisible super-being for help.

Not once in Submarine School did they teach us to pray when an emergency strikes. None of the countless drills we had aboard our boat ever included prayer.

[Kajsa]

37. So are you saying that everyone who is in

a foxhole is a "coward"?

That's how it comes across.

[tbyg52]

17. If you need more ammunition, you can point him to the "Atheist in Foxhole" award

http://www.ffrf.org/search/search.php?Terms=foxhole&x=&y=

[MindPilot]

68. Jeremy Hall was the most recent recipient of the Atheist in Foxholes Award

Thanks for mentioning the FFRF -- they do some really good work on the church-state separation front.

They also honored Mikey Weinstein for his work against religious discrimination in the military.

[tbyg52]

69. I adore FFRF

both for their work and for their newsletter - every time it arrives in the mail I know I have an evening of happy reading!

[valerief]

19. How come this isn't in the Jesus forum? nt

[Sheepshank]

21. I'm fairly new here....

...there's a Jesus forum? My stance is a tad non-Jesus-y. So this needs to be turned more political? Then let me ask this: For those soldiers that find "God" while under fire, does it change how they soldier and is this something the military bit wigs take into consideration during future deployment?

[valerief]

25. Religion/theology forum. God stuff goes there. nt

[TexasObserver]

20. I'm more interested in WHY theists care if others reject their beliefs.

I'm especially interested in those who claim to believe in God, but think it's their job to denigrate those who do not. God exists or doesn't exist, irrespective of what any of us or all of us think.

[Sheepshank]

28. I felt like I was being pressed

with the idea that the only reason I lack faith is because I have not been placed in the correct situation. And that others are so righteous, that they do not need a crisis to see and feel God. The theists are in essence more evlolved than those who are non theists. The co-workers impression of theists is that they merely need the right impetus to react, and eventually they will and be just like other already evolved theists. War apparently was considered the ultimate impetus. But since, I wondered how that may affect soldiering?

[TBF]

31. Seriously? n/t

[Sheepshank]

33. that's how the discussion was 'evolving'. n/t

[TexasObserver]

60. It's not about believing in GOD. It's about believing in THEIR God.

Theists want you to believe in their God. Any god won't do. It has to be their God.

They want you to believe in their God, so can they attach their prejudices, myths and dogma, and expect that to be swallowed, as well.

One can believe in God without believing God is in any way connected to religion. Try saying you believe in a God that abhors religion, and the theists will roast you along with the atheists.

[RagAss]

35. Bingo !......Drum a fable into a child from the time he is 3 and he will resort to it when stressed

So whats the big deal here?

[TexasObserver]

61. That's why they drum their fables into children in their formative years.

Their constructs require saints and demons that live in a nether world, as inducements to behaviors in this world.

[treestar]

36. I agree though it goes both ways

There are plenty of atheists who denigrate believers.

[pipi_k]

46. You're right...it does go both ways

and I do agree that there are Atheists who denigrate believers, but, speaking only for the ones I know (including myself), many Atheists tend to keep their opinions to themselves unless pressed or otherwise provoked or harassed by persistent (to the point of obnoxiousness) believers who just will not take "No thank you" for an answer.

Or because believers try to force the rest of us to live by their religions instead of just living their own lives and leaving the rest of us the hell alone.

As for myself, I usually won't be so rude as to denigrate someone else's religion or faith as long as when I'm asked what my religious beliefs are and I reply, that I don't get the usual bullshit "What if you're wrong?" thrown back at me.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. In which case it'll be MY problem...not theirs...and they shouldn't trouble themselves worrying about my soul.

[TexasObserver]

62. Yes, but it's the theists who daily punish the atheists for their beliefs.

Your comment is like saying "black people are prejudiced toward white people, too." While that may be true in some individuals, it fails to recognize the horrors still visited upon blacks all over America every day at the hands of racist whites, all because they are black.

One group has the power to inflict harm on the other, while one does not, in both the race and faith worlds. While atheists may trash talk theists, there's nothing in America atheists can do to theists. The reverse is not true.

Try sitting through a public prayer, or better yet, talking through it and ignoring it.

[NoodleyAppendage]

44. Because deep, deep down they all doubt and suspect its all Santa Claus bullshit.

There's safety in numbers. The existence of those who do not believe serve as a nagging reminder for what the person of faith already suspects. Why do you think some "believers" get so violent when their worldview is threatened...the truth, which they already suspect, is VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.

J

[TexasObserver]

63. True. Fundamentalists literally want to kill atheists.

They do not want their children to have the option of believing those childhood fairy tales told in church are just myths.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Well, this (at that time) Atheist just wanted to get out of the goddam foxhole.

Sitting in foxholes being highly overrated as a pastime even when not being shot at.

[Odin2005]

24. The world wars is what made Europe so secular IIRC.

A lot of people could not square the incredible destruction they experienced with the existence of a Loving God.

[TWiley]

26. All Superstitious beliefs increase during crisis

It has been that way since the beginning for humans. Turning to superstition gives the potential victim the sensation that their odds of survival have been increased, or that some plesant reward awaits them if the worst happens.

Religion in general is very selfish and "me oriented". Humans were sacrificed to volcano's or even to the Jewish God in the selfish persuit of winnin favor and extracting a more comfortable existance as a result.

Interesting also is the relationship between excess, tolerance, and multiple Gods. On one side of the river you had the romans living in excess and worshipping multiple Goddesses, and at the same time across the river you had impoverished and pissed off Jewish people worshiping a pissed off God.

We tend to rationalize God into our own hopes and experiences. We practice superstition in hope of gaining a measureof control. In the end, it is always about our own welfare, and in rare cases, the welfare of those we love.

We cry not for others, but for ourselves. In fear that it could happen to us, and also for the inconvience of being without their (the dead)help.

[KathieG]

27. Christians vs. Atheists in foxholes...

[Xithras]

32. As my brother in law (a three tour Iraq veteran) put it...

"There are two types of people in a firefight. There are people who will step behind a pillar, drop to their knees, and pray to God to deliver them from the evil haji's while the bullets fly around them. And then there are the people who keep their guns up and win the damned firefight. The crappy part is that the first group always credits God afterwards."

There were apparently a couple of fundies in his unit who absolutely drove him nuts.

[alfredo]

34. As I was sitting behind an M 60 just inside the front gate awaiting attack,

I wasn't praying, I was wondering how long it will take for the unseen enemy to vaporize me. I had never fired an M 60, nor has anyone in my squad. We didn't even know if the machine gun even fired. The one box of ammo was Korean war vintage. Word came down that a force of 3,000 were on the way toward us. I was dead, I was just waiting for it to become official. I didn't become a Christian, I didn't fall on my knees to pray. I was just waiting and worrying if I can put up a good fight, if my feeder can perform for us, and if my death would be painful. It was over for me, my life had ended.

The attack never came. No explanation, no apologies, just silence. Tensions were high, there was talk of abandoning our station. Our unit would go first, before dependents. We'd been working sixteen hours straight for nearly two months. We lived on cigarettes, meth, alcohol, and coffee. We were wired and worn out before the alarm went up. It was probably a drill, but a drill without telling us it was a drill. Fuckin lifers. To a man, we knew we were dead. Everything changed for us because of that ugly stunt. Drinking and fighting increased. Anti Army sentiment grew. Bad attitude was the norm.

I crawled into the machine gun nest an Atheist, I left an Atheist.

[camera obscura]

38. I am religious but that argument is bunk. Faith based on fear is not faith, it's rationalization.

-- the mind trying to cope with horrible events.

[BuyingThyme]

40. I tend to believe in Santa Claus around Christmas.

[Vickers]

45. And the Leprechauns will be here Tuesday!!!

wo0+ !!!!11!!!

:P

[BuyingThyme]

70. I don't believe in those.

Those are weird.

[pipi_k]

42. It was because of the foxholes

in France and Belgium that my father, born in 1925 and raised a Catholic, actually became an Atheist.

[Arugula Latte]

75. Yep -- and the horrors of WWI and WWII gave rise to the Existentialist movement.

[sendero]

43. I might pray..

.. in such a situation, but it would't be any indication that I believed in a Christian-style god. No way.

[Forkboy]

47. I don't want to be in a foxhole with anyone who believes in an afterlife.

[david13]

48. Wrong. There are atheists any and every

where. They run a risk so identifying themselves, though. Due to the religious bigotry in favor of religion in this country.
The brave man does not fear death. Why should he fear something he undergoes only once.
The coward is said to die a thousand deaths, as he imagines his death in every close call.
dc

[david13]

49. Wrong. There are atheists any and every

where. They run a risk so identifying themselves, though. Due to the religious bigotry in favor of religion in this country.
The brave man does not fear death. Why should he fear something he undergoes only once.
The coward is said to die a thousand deaths, as he imagines his death in every close call.
dc

[Jennicut]

50. I am very religious and don't get the attempt by religious people to convert atheists

Your beliefs are your beliefs. Why can we not leave people alone?

[pink-o]

53. I read every post in this thread. As an agnostic, I'd like to address some points:

First, I've been in 3 situations where I might have died (2 were car accidents) so I know how I react when confronted with the possibility. In my case, a door slams in my mind, stopping the flood of any emotion or panic, and I am completely rational. If I cannot move, like in the cars, I automatically brace for impact. I don't pray, I don't call for an imaginary being to help me, I just act without thinking. And both times, I was able to walk away with minor injuries--and I didn't thank God, or think it was a miracle that I made it. I went over the edge of a freeway, and landed in the spongey iceplant--so I credit human ingenuity for putting that stuff around where a car might skid off the road. Yay for human Big Brains!

Also, I find that believers really have no understanding of Agnostics or Atheists. They can't figure out where we get our morality, if we don't believe in a higher presence. I had a friend whom I adore tell me the other day that she knows I believe in something, I'm just not ready to admit it to myself. I corrected her: I used to believe in something, now I'm ready to admit humans aren't that special to have a "creator" elevate us above all other species.

And as for Atheists and Agnostics getting up into the Believers' grilles, I find that most of us are happy living our godless lives, and only get aggressive when judgmental Christians intrude on them.

Look, here's my philosophy in a nutshell: We're here, we're alive. We don't know how or why. We can guess at our origins and our purpose, but we'll never have the answer. So what do we do? Why not just take this great gift of life, use it to its optimum, love as many people as possible and appreciate every moment we have? Any god would approve, and if there's nothing after this, at least we didn't waste the gift we were given.

[Sheepshank]

54. The most confusing

experience for my co-worker, is me being a content human being. I'm happy with my life, a good friend and a decent law abiding human being. He just doesn't get that my moral compass is not based on some theology. He is convinced much like your experience, I have some theological desires, I just need to tap into them and acknowledge them.

[pink-o]

57. Yeah, and that can get real frustrating

So you might be tempted to lash out--and then get the whole "angry Atheist" pigeonhole label.

Coincidentally, I just finished watching "Religulous" last night, and I think Bill Maher nailed it. He mentioned, though, that he was a believer up into his 40s, and has naturally evolved into agnosticism. Me, too! I swear, until I felt my hormones influence my emotions during menopause, I clung to the last vestiges of a superior being who'd infused us with the ability to love and feel empathy. Now I understand those emotions are a combination of brain secretions and the abilities humans needed throughout the ages to survive. Not negating love--it's pretty cool that we have that capacity, I just don't believe it comes from God anymore.

But the real defining moment was this: all through my life, I've asked Pastors, Rabbis, Priests, et al why, if God loves humanity so much, does he let us suffer, allow us to torture each other, and allow humans to feel such pain and agony for no reason? I've gotten the stock answer bullshit of Free Will or We Don't Always See God's Divine Agenda, blah blah blah. Instead of all those excuses, how 'bout this:

Relative to the universe, humans are a young species. We are at a point in our evolution where the Big Brain is trying to take us to the next level, the one where we no longer hurt each other and are allowed to flourish with no more constraints. But change is hard, and we're afraid to let go of those base instincts that helped us survive the hostile elements--instincts like aggression and xenophobia (cuz back in caveman days, we were right to be afraid of foreigners--they were probably there to steel our food and our territory.) Fear is what's holding us back, what makes us lash out and hurt, maim and kill. We will either conquer that fear, or else destroy ourselves with it.

So, yeah, there's a battle being waged. But not by God and Satan: just by lowly humans trying to figure things out. We're a work in progress, and all change comes with reactionaries fighting against it.

That's human nature, not divine destiny!

[Blue Belle]

58. I like your philosophy...

I hope you don't mind, but I used it to give my boyfriend a pep-talk. He's getting treatment for combat related PTSD and Alcoholism at a Vets facility in Southern Oregon and the Psychologist who runs the AA meetings has been mocking him because he does not believe in God. She says he'll never be successful with treatment if he doesn't believe in a higher power. Needless to say, he's been having a tough time.

[MindPilot]

66. Screw AA. Then demand the VA provide non-faith-based therapy

Check out Secular Organization for Sobriety and Rational Recovery. Hopefully there is a group nearby.

[Blue Belle]

72. He was looking into Rational Recovery....

but I don't think there is a group near by.

[pink-o]

71. Oh, no, I don't mind at all! In fact, you flatter me

:blush:

Your poor boyfriend must be going through hell, and you would think those people who call themselves Christians would show the same compassion as their savior. And a psychologist on top of it! She would rather proselytize than do her damn job, I guess.

The irony is, Christianity is a beautiful philosophy to live by, if you assume Jesus was just an enlightened Rabbi and not the son of God. Jesus preached that we humans are worthy, and he hung out with the worst sinners to lift them up and teach them to love themselves. Once we care about ourselves and leave behind the destructive habits, we can learn to care for others. And if we do love ourselves enough, then no prison will ever keep us, no limits will bind us, and the best: no governments could ever control us. True Christianity is very dangerous, it's kinda like Gandhi and Thoreau and rejects that external and material things can make us better. So the System has subverted it, turned it upside down and made it about judgment and superiority. That way, they can use it as mind control and keep knowledge from the people.

[MineralMan]

55. The entire statement is one of fear and misunderstanding.

I've been an atheist since I was 20 years old, some 43 years, now. I've been in life-threatening situations more than once. Never did I even consider my disbelief or any other damn thing than what I might do to survive the situation.

Saying that there are no atheists in foxholes is like saying there are no Christians in brothels. It's meaningless. Deities are simply not part of my thinking. For me, they do not exist, except as figments of the imagination. Why would I change that point of view when in danger? It just doesn't make any sense.

[AndrewP]

77. Exactly. If you don't hang out with sky daddy in your head, it's not really an issue.

[jmm]

65. Someone needs to tell these people there are no foxhole atheists

http://www.thenafa.org/ofa/

[Touchdown]

73. If it's true, then it would explain why Christians love war.

Just a mild suggestion.;)

[LiberalPersona]

74. That's absurd

If anything war might make people question faith because they'd wonder why a benevolent god might allow something that terrible to go on in the world.

[Motown_Johnny]

76. No Atheists on Fox News maybe

[burning rain]

78. The "no atheists in foxholes" claim is demonstrably false...

and it's also interesting that it doesn't even try to prove the existence of a god. It seems to me that those who make the claim are as much as admitting that they're cowards, and are merely trying to depict atheists as no better.

[Rob H.]

79. "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn’t an argument against atheism,

it’s an argument against foxholes."--James Morrow

[cynatnite]

81. Actually, it's when someone thinks they're going to die then at the last minute...

they're on their hands and knees.

I had doubts throughout my adolescence, but working in the medical field sent the message. After seeing so much death, it was obvious when we die...we're dead. Nothing else after that.

Death is permanent and there is no afterlife. It sucks, but that's how it is.

[Number23]

82. You're both right. What one of you said is not in any way contradictory to what the other has said

During a war, you'd be hard pressed to not see many people praying. After it's all said and done, that would be when the disillusionment would seem to kick in.