More drive-through coffee stands in WA State going "bikini" to save their businesses.

[Mrs. Overall]

BOTHELL, Wash. -- For 15 years, Beehive Espresso thrived as a family-friendly coffee stand. But with many people cutting back on spending, sales slumped.

"It got to the point I was really faced with a tough option. I could cut back hours, I could let some employees go, or I could try and do what we could," said owner Alan Tagle.

So when the economy tanked, Tagle thought sex might still sell. "We decided to go bikini," he said. And Tagle says people are buying more coffee drinks now than ever before. "We've seen an increase, and so that's why we did it."

"People said they weren't going to come in, and then they see it's just bikinis and they're like 'oh that's fine -- it's like going to the beach,'" said Kate Meritt, who works at the coffee stand. There are 12 coffee stands and shops along the small strip of highway where the Beehive does business, and Tagle says every single one is falling apart because they won't go bikini.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/41299492.html

Maybe I'm just a prude, but there is something sad and exploitative about this to me.

[county worker]

1. Do they get cold in the winter?

[XemaSab]

137. Bothell? Or the girls?

Yes and yes.

It snows there, and in the winter the daytime high is probably 40. :shrug:

[Bucky]

147. Well, that's sort of the point

Or points, rather.

[Maru Kitteh]

222. I love cerdos who think they deserve the mantle of progressive

I have a great idea. How about you post some pictures for all of DU of your daughter's, or neice's, or cousin's erect nipples - after all, that's what women's bodies are for - to please the cerdos.

[cosmicone]

2. Exploitation of women for a buck. There is another name for that. n/t

[Lost in CT]

242. Woman choosing for themselves.... there is another name for that. nt

[Donnachaidh]

3. It IS exploitive

But what do you expect from business owners who don't give a shit about the dignity of their employees? What's next for this jerk -- offering lapdances with their egg mcmuffins?

[paulsby]

10. it is also a choice

salesmen, models, and people in all sorts of careers (even those that you might not think so), market themselves, and that includes - their body.

i never buy coffee at drive-throughs. i think it's a tremendous waste of money. i'd rather spend cash on olives or fine cheese, and make my coffee at home.

our bodies can be (and should be, as long as there is consent), a tool for marketing and sales.

i think it's great.

baristas who don't want to market their bodies, can choose an employer that doesn't have bikini sales.

customers who find it exploitative can go somewhere else.

women (and men) SHOULD have the choice to market their bodies

[Mrs. Overall]

11. Most baristas at these drive-through stands are teens (17-20 years old)

and I think most of them would go along with the clothing change in order to keep jobs in a very tough economy--especially if you are trying to save up for or put yourself through college.

I think there is less choice involved in this particular job field, which normally, unlike modeling, does not involve showing your body.

[Donnachaidh]

14. yeah, and the models get far MORE cash than these girls do

Apples and oranges. And you KNOW it -- but hey, if you can get a peek at adolescent girls being exploited, it's a good thing right? :sarcasm:

[paulsby]

18. i don't have a problem with its

sure models (at least employed ones) make more money for marketing their body, but...

even in careers like bartending, many people have enhanced tips etc. because of their bodies.

i;m thinking of , for example, cowgirls inc. in seattle, which is kind of a "coyote ugly" bar.

again, if you look at it from the external locus of control - they are being exploited by another, that sounds bad.

if you look at it from their own control - they are using their bodies to enhance their income, it doesn't.

[Donnachaidh]

23. and in this economy those girls have *other* options?

Talk about blowing smoke out of your ass. :eyes:

[paulsby]

45. oh spare me

yes, i live in seattle, and the ONLY jobs available are bikini baristas.

riiiiiight.

there are jobs available that involve marketing one's body.

there are job available that don't.

the choice should be with the employer as to whether they want to be a bikini coffee place or not

the choice is with the employee as to whether they want to work at such a place.

and the choice is with the consumer as to whether they want to patronize such a place

choice. it's what's for dinner.

i have no problem with people protesting bikini barista, only problem i have is if and when (it has happened in one jurisdiction i read about) where legislators try to ban such practices.

[Missy Vixen]

57. I live in Seattle, too

Why don't you share with all of us who's hiring? They sure as hell aren't here.

>choice. it's what's for dinner.

Great. Then you won't mind if I hire you and require you to work nude mowing my lawn, will you? After all, you can get a job somewhere else, can't you?

Do you think it was an accident that thousands showed up at the job fair last month, or 900 people showed up in Tacoma last month for one meter-reader job?

[paulsby]

60. do you think

strip clubs should be illegal? how about modeling agencies?

what remedy do you propose?

i wouldn't want my wife or daughter working there, but i am not going to say the business owner doesn't have the right to choose to run his business as a bikini coffee shop, or a woman doesn't have the right to work there.

they are providing a product, and if the market responds positively, then bully for them.

feel free to protest or boycott such a business, or choose to use your coffee dollars elsewhere.

i consider it kind of like cowgirls inc.

cowgirls inc has bartenders (exclusively female) who wear skimpy outfits (to put it mildly), dance on the bar as part of their duties, etc.

it's an alternative.

the bikini barista business is selling a product. the opportunity to see bikini'd women and have them sell you coffee.

i don't have a problem with that.

you couldn't require me to work nude mowing your lawn, because that would be illegal under the RCW.

i will mow your lawn in a skimpy outfit , for a suitable fee, though.

[Missy Vixen]

78. Here's the "remedy" I propose

When one takes a job in a strip bar or a modeling agency, one is notified up front that is part of the job. I might also mention that I believe one can't get a job in a strip bar or even a modeling agency (posing for nude shots,) without being 21. When a teenage girl takes a job selling coffee, nudity is typically not on the menu. If it's such a great thing to wear a bikini while dispensing coffee, I suggest the owner do it first. How about the right teenage girls have to do their jobs without harassment? Do you think that they will be able to achieve that?

Imagine how many other businesses could go bikini-only, huh? After all, if those uppity women don't like it, they can work elsewhere, can't they?

[uppityperson]

84. hell, next thing you know they will require it of cops, and then where will we be

[paulsby]

99. does this uniform make my butt look big? nt

[paulsby]

94. i agree... partially

"When one takes a job in a strip bar or a modeling agency, one is notified up front that is part of the job. I might also mention that I believe one can't get a job in a strip bar or even a modeling agency (posing for nude shots,) without being 21. "

but these baristas aren't nude. they are wearing bikinis. perfectly legal for those under 21, just like it is legal for them to model bathing suits.

"When a teenage girl takes a job selling coffee, nudity is typically not on the menu. If it's such a great thing to wear a bikini while dispensing coffee, I suggest the owner do it first. How about the right teenage girls have to do their jobs without harassment? Do you think that they will be able to achieve that?"

these teenage girls do not have the right to work at this coffee shop, w/o wearing bikinis. that is the business model he has chosen.

teenage girls DO have the right to do their jobs w/o harassment but there is no harassment here, any more than a girl working for modeling agency, strip club, etc. would be "harassed" by wearing those respective outfits


you are right, nudity is not typically on the menu for baristas. nor, for that matter is it in this case. bikini modeling is. that is part of the job. they DO know it up front. that's the business model.

what you are saying is that the business owner does NOT have the right to set up his business model as a bikini only shop.

so, i repeat . what do you propose? should it be OUTLAWED?

if so, then how can you justify cowgirls inc, or porn, or modeling (let alone nude modeling).

[Sgent]

155. Most states its 18

and for making porn video's its 18. Some states may require 21 for strip clubs, I don't know.

[Lost in CT]

156. I believe the age for strip bar is 18... Modeling agencies have no age limit.

And while that may be a bit extreme... many business hire attractive young females exclusivly... and those businesses often cater to a female only clientele.

When was the last time you saw a fat, unattractive or middle aged woman selling high fashion in a boutique???

[Maru Kitteh]

223. Your honor, we submit Exhibit A: FLAMING HYPOCRITE - paulsby

"i wouldn't want my wife or daughter working there"


Let's say your 19-year-old, very fit and attractive daughter, who despite yourself, has developed a clear sense of both self-worth and bounderies, was hired by this "Alan" dude 11 months ago. She's built up a relationship with her customers. She's just trying to get through school, and now, ALL OF THE SUDDEN, "Alan" says - "Mr. Paulsby's daughter, things have changed. I now require you to allow men buying a $2.00 cup of coffee to ogle your dangling breasts as you hand their order out the window. - OH and just so you know? Mr. Paulsby is totally golden with it."

[uppityperson]

251. Do you think she would tell him?

[treestar]

254. If she is 19, she can "choose" to work there, too and Mr. P has

no way to interfere with this choice.

Mrs. P. can work there any time! His consent is not required.

[uppityperson]

63. Who is hiring please, have a kid there looking for a job. Seriously, who?

thank you for helping.

[paulsby]

65. police are

i moved here for the economic opportunities for police officers.

we are paid quite well here, good benefits, etc.

[Missy Vixen]

68. Oh, so everything's great because a couple of departments might be looking for a cop?

Have you even taken a look at what's happening in other industries, or since one or two jurisdictions might be hiring in the state, everything's ducky, huh?

[paulsby]

72. nice strawman

i never said everything's great here. the economy here is pretty weak.

you asked me who is hiring, and i gave an answer.

you are inventing these little strawmen to knock down.

the whole REASON this guy decided to do the barista bikini thang was because the economy here was NOT doing as well.

that's the whole point.

in times of economic crises, businesses innovate and differentiate.

a few years ago, opening a coffee stand was a guaranteed moneymaker. every addicted yahoo with lots of cash practically assured this.

now. not so much.

this guy made a capital investment, and saw his business failing. he decided to change strategies, employ a perfectly legal strategy to attempt to either lure customers away from other coffee shops (build a better mousetrap ) and.or incentivize people who would otherwise skip the morning coffee drive through TO spend their money.

i have sympathy for him.

[uppityperson]

77. "those girls" can just be cops? Here is the discussion sequence ...

and in this economy those girls have *other* options?

there are jobs available that involve marketing one's body.
there are job available that don't.

If one of those girls doesn't want to be a bikini barrista, she could be a cop.

[Missy Vixen]

85. Fail on the "strawman" comment

You can't come up with an answer, so you try a personal attack. Congratulations!

"Businesses innovate and differentiate"? No, it's called harassment. Period.

If you've been notified prior to taking the job that you're required to remove your clothing as a requirement, that's your choice. If your boss comes in one day and announces you'll be removing clothing as part of a job that typically doesn't require nudity, that's harassment. It doesn't matter what the economic conditions are. He's doing this because he believes those who aren't so crazy about the idea aren't going to be able to find a job elsewhere.

[paulsby]

103. except under the law

it is NOT harassment.

it falls under neither prong (quid pro quo or hostile workplace environment) any more than cowgirls inc, a modeling agency, or a strip club does.

read the case law.

however, let me address the point more specifically. i am admittedly not sure what the case law in seattle is regarding changing work requirements (like bikinis added) AFTER employment is granted.

my understanding is that, as a "at will worker", all the employer would do would be to give you proper notice, that he was changing his business model, and you could reapply/be rehired under the new business model.


this would be different if the barista was covered under a collective bargaining agreement or something like that, of course.

[Lost in CT]

157. How is wearing a bikini harrasment???? How is that any different than

requiring short skirt uniform for a cocktail waitress?

[NoGOPZone]

121. This innovation is easily and quickly copied, so the differentiation won't last long.

Do you think maybe one of these business will try improving product and service to gain an edge?

[paulsby]

123. good point

i agree.

and like i said, i suspect a fair # of people are outraged by bikini baristas and would never go there, and will go instead to fully clad baristas.

but i think given a market for coffee, this niche has legs...

pun intended :)

[NashVegas]

134. And That's Where the Real ASSHOLE Quotient Comes In

There are 12 coffee stands and shops along the small strip of highway where the Beehive does business, and Tagle says every single one is falling apart because they won't go bikini.

This guy is promoting the idea that all coffee shop workers should dress like his employees. That's what people do when they know they're doing something shakey - try to get every one to sign up and give them cover.

So, what, now? Every coffee stand and restaurant in town needs to go bikini?

[treestar]

255. Another question is what happened to any employees who

weren't bikini-eligible - were all his baristas attractive young girls? Did he fire any heavy or older ones, or any men? Or keep them, but they didn't have to make the change?

[Missy Vixen]

263. That's okay, though

They weren't hawt, so they needed to go. :sarcasm:

[treestar]

290. And if he kept them and let them wear regular clothes

The bikini girls are the ones discriminated against. Sort of exploited so themselves and the others and the owner can keep the place going.

Though I'm not sure I believe this really boosted the business or would longer than a short term. Over half the population is female, who at least presumably wouldn't come in increased numbers over it, and might even be offended and switch coffee shops. Then there are gay men and men with daughters and other enlightened men, other grown up men who don't find teenagers sexy - this guy is only aiming at increasing his customers amongst a minority.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

190. Places like this have been around since the 80's

Bikini car washes......bikini hot dog stands.....etc....mostly Florida and California.

Every small town gets up in arms and shocked by it when it finally arrives in their back yard, but the concept has been around awhile.

[uppityperson]

73. No, he is saying that people have a choice between bikini barristas and cops.

Since the level of education and training is the same, seems like a reasonable thing to conclude.


















:sarcasm:

[paulsby]

80. nice strawman

i didn't say that at all

what i offered when somebody asked who was hiring, was that cops are hiring.

although many agencies DO require only a high school diploma or GED

they provide the training.

although pretty difficult to get hired without a lot going for you, if all you have is a high school diploma.

what i am saying is that i feel for the BUSINESS OWNER who was losing his business.

he chose to innovate and is now doing better.

he can thus pay his employees and be part of the economy.

[uppityperson]

81. I do not think that word means what you think it means

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5264804&mesg_id=5267088
"those girls" can just be cops? Here is the discussion sequence ...


and in this economy those girls have *other* options?

there are jobs available that involve marketing one's body.
there are job available that don't.

If one of those girls doesn't want to be a bikini barrista, she could be a cop.

[paulsby]

87. all you need

in many agencies is a high school diploma.

fwiw, are you saying that all baristas are equally qualified.

here in seattle, i've met baristas with frigging graduate degrees.

many certainly ARE qualified.

[uppityperson]

97. no, you are making assumption there, poor logic. Website for StlPolice jobs...

to be a barrista you don't need any education. Just because some barristas are highly educated does not mean they need to be.

Here is info for Seattle Police jobs.

http://www.seattle.gov/police/jobs/hiring/qualifications.htm

To be hired:
http://www.seattle.gov/police/jobs/hiring/qualifications.htm

Minimum Standards

* Applicants must be at least 20.5 years of age at the time of taking the exam to be hired.
* United States Citizenship is required.
* Proof of high school diploma or a certified GED.
* A valid Washington State Driver's License is required prior to being hired.
* Military discharge under honorable conditions (fair employment laws apply)

Then you take and pass tests, get background checks, then, if all is fine, go to the Academy.

http://www.seattle.gov/police/jobs/hiring/entry.htm

The Hiring Process
After successfully completing the backgrounding and testing processes, and based on your overall competitiveness with other applicants, you may be offered conditional employment with the Seattle Police Department.

DO NOT QUIT YOUR CURRENT JOB or MOVE until you receive a written FINAL OFFER of employment!

After receiving a conditional offer of employment you will be scheduled for additional tests, including a polygraph, psychological, medical/physical exam and finally, an in-person interview with a Seattle Police Assistant Chief or his/her representative.

Once you receive your final offer of employment you will be notified of your academy start date & employment orientation.


Employment:

#6 - The Law Enforcement Academy

Entry Level Candidates:

Once hired, you will become a Police Recruit and enter the police academy. You will need to re-take the Physical Ability Test as an entrance requirement. The Basic Law Enforcement Academy (BLEA) is approximately 4.5-months (720 hours). Recruits are NOT housed at the academy and will be responsible for their own housing.

#7 - Post-BLEA and Field Training
Upon graduation from the Basic Law Enforcement Academy (BLEA) you will become a Student Officer. You will spend approximately 4 weeks at the Seattle Police Department Advanced Training Unit in Post-BLEA. You will learn the laws specific to the City of Seattle, department policy and procedures and services specific to Seattle.

After completing advanced training, you will enter the Field Training Program, where you will spend the following 4-months with an experienced officer who will evaluate your performance in the patrol division.

You must successfully complete all of the above segments to continue your employment with the Seattle Police Department. Failure to achieve satisfactory scores and/or performance may result in your termination.

#8 - Probationary Period and Assignments
Once you successfully complete the Field Training program you will be assigned to the Patrol Division where you will work a Patrol shift at one of our five precincts.

You will be a probationary police officer for the first year following your graduation from the academy. Once passing probation, you will become a permanent member of the Seattle Police Department.

[Echo In Light]

240. Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

;)

[uppityperson]

252. yes, puts a bit of a different light on it. Too bad it is so long and complicated right now

as my kid could use a job. However, I am glad it is complicated as perhaps they can keep some assholes off the force. Hardly a quick choice for "these girls" in the OP though.

[noamnety]

278. Ugh.

"he chose to innovate and is now doing better."

Can you please not use the word "innovate" to mean "exploit and objectify young women for profit"?

There's really nothing innovative in that at all.

[uppityperson]

71. I think you need more education/training to be a police officer than a barrista

how about for people like the ones we are talking about in this topic?

[paulsby]

76. the economy here

is weak. a lot stronger than many other areas, but certainly weaker than it was.

one career i think young people can do quite well in is personal trainer.

it's a good "people job". i used to do that part time , while working as a cop, and it's nice because you can strike out on your own OR work for a gym.

there are no licenses required under law, or certificates.

[uppityperson]

79. I think you need more education/training to be a police officer than a barrista

"there are no licenses required under law, or certificates" to be a cop, so one of these girls could walk into a police station and be hired as a police officer, just like that?

how about for people like the ones we are talking about in this topic? I do have a kid in Stl, seeing work

[paulsby]

89. um, no

what i am saying is that personal training is a business that does not require license or cert's (in most jurisdictions at least), and is a good self-starter job.

[Missy Vixen]

92. How many people are actually hiring personal trainers right now?

How many have let their gym memberships lapse because they can't afford it?

[Gwendolyn]

141. Good question. A number I suspect. Or they're getting better lower rates.

One thing's for sure, and has been pretty much played out at every gym from here to Miami, to LA and over the pond. The morning crowd is mostly all women, training with hot, muscled guys in teeny shorts/skins and tight tees or tanks.

[mitchum]

142. Well, of course "the army of the rich" is going to increase their ranks...

in the face of the oncoming economic and social unrest

[MattBaggins]

44. How many levels of dumb is that idea of yours

Do they have to hire all sorts of people as well? Will they give a job to a 40 year old overweight hairy guy. People should not have to feel obligated to use their sexuality to get a job. There is a reason that harassment laws exist and one can only sigh in relief that extremist libertarians like yourself are such a tiny minority of the voting populace.

[paulsby]

50. utter crap

first of all spare me the labels e.g. "extremist libertarian"

that's not a way that rational people have a discussion

god forbid i should believe that a business has the right to be a bikini barista or NOT.

and employees have the right to work there or not.

it is not harassment to require as a condition of employment, that employees wear a certain uniform (think hooters) even if revealing.

this is no different.

study the case law.

different types of jobs require different skillz.

i would agree that an accountant should not be judged on their looks.

if you are trying to draw customers in to a driveby business like a coffee shop, then yes looks DO matter.

should hooters be required to hire fat women? of course not.

the VAST majority of jobs do not have such a requirement, but some do.

modeling is an obvious example.

[Missy Vixen]

55. Did you read the article at all?

>baristas who don't want to market their bodies, can choose an employer that doesn't have bikini sales<

The other espresso stands in the area are not making as much money.

So, let me get this straight: It's take off your top or not work?

Are you even reading your own comments? Women shouldn't have to "show some skin" to get a job!

[noiretextatique]

181. it's clearly harrassment

anyone who argues otherwise is a complete jackass.

[NashVegas]

126. In a State That Outlaws Cigarette Smoking In Businesses, Claiming to Protect Workers

Stripping down should not be a requirement to hold a family restaurant job.

[Cronopio]

150. "baristas who don't want to ... can choose an employer that doesn't have bikini sales."

As every one of the drive-throughs are switching to the skin-and-caffiene business model, that will not be a option very soon.

Democracy and capitalism do *not* guarantee choice.

Edit: If male baristas are forced to strip to their undies to keep their jobs, then you might be given a choice.

[treestar]

253. In this economy? Sounds like you have to do it to keep your

job - one that you did not have to dress this way for, before. And there isn't another job you are "free" to get.

What gets me is that this would work at all. People who didn't have the money to spend have it now, just because of this? Who cares what the barista is wearing or not? It would seem to help only with boys in their late teens and early 20s. How much coffee did they drink before? :rofl:

[liberalmuse]

4. I used to live two blocks from there.

Who woulda thought?

[lutefisk]

5. Hot coffee, steam, and bare midriffs. What could possibly go wrong?

:shrug:

Just from an OSHA perspective, it's a bad idea.

[Dora]

17. That's what I was thinking too. Ouch. nt

[redqueen]

6. Was anyone else reminded of Idiocracy?

Just curious...


And I agree... sad and exploitative.

[Initech]

56. Home of the gentlemen's rebate.

:rofl:

[backscatter712]

67. Man, I could use a full-body latte...

with extra foam!

:evilgrin:

[Hello_Kitty]

7. Do they have men serving coffee in swimsuits too?

Or do they assume that straight males are the only customers worth trying to attract?

[paulsby]

19. that's the beauty of the free market

feel free to open one with males in swimsuits and see how it does.

[KillCapitalism]

239. Well, there's a gay cafe near where I live.

Men serving food & drinks in speedos would be a hit there.

[Zywiec]

20. No, because no one wants to see that.

Is there a male equivalent to Hooters?

:shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

21. An Italian restaurant near me comes close

No, the waiters and bartenders aren't scantily clad but they are gorgeous and charming. Needless to say, the place is highly popular with women.

[lutefisk]

31. I think it's also the thought of body hair shedding into our food and drink

As a fact of nature, and aided by cultural traditions, males usually have more body hair than females. And people (possibly aside from some fetish I am unfamiliar with) don't want to see hair in their food and drink. I don't think a Speedo with a head to toe hair net would work either.

[anigbrowl]

35. Why do you think the hairless, 'buff' look for men has become so popular?

Because that's what the ladies like, duh.

[anigbrowl]

34. The Chippendales are still going strong... nt

[bbernardini]

28. There's a coffee place in Maine doing something like that...

Well, technically, both the male and female servers are topless...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/27/topless.coffee.shop/

[Initech]

58. Doesn't work the other way around.

Yeah you can lecture me about double standards all day but the truth is.. it doesn't.

[redqueen]

129. No, you're right... it doesn't.

More depressingness.

[lame54]

8. "Would you like some milk in your coffee?"

[xocet]

9. That is a fair idea...

The owner should be placed outside in a Speedo, so that he can greet the customers.

Better yet, he should be forced to wear Borat's outfit while the bikini policy is in effect:

http://www.amazon.com/Borat-Mankini-Swimsuit-Costume-Suspender/dp/B000UGJSRU

[KitchenWitch]

13. ...

:applause:

[Donnachaidh]

15. oh HELL yeah -- let's make the asshole wear a SPEEDO

Let's see how the owner holds up under the same scrutiny.

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. I like bikinis as much as the next guy.

But I'm still not paying $5 for a cup of coffee.

[anigbrowl]

37. I don't get it in WA though - too cold. I could udnerstand this in, say, Florida.

I'd have thought they'd lose more money on having the heat turned up than the bikinis would bring. But I suppose they have a steady supply of hot coffee when the wind blows.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. I've never been a barista, but from what I've seen, staying warm isn't a problem. n/t

[quiller4]

48. You have obviously never worked in a tiny, drive-thru stand

Even on the coldest and wettest days in Washington, the steam from your products keep you so warm it would be hard to wear more than a tank top. My niece used to work at a drive-through expresso stand. She was quite comfortable in the winter wearing shorts and a tank top. Mid-way through June she quit after the temp inside the stand reached 106 F.

[bikebloke]

16. Too many of them?

When I lived in Seattle, you couldn't walk 5 steps without passing a coffee stand or shop. Maybe the market is over saturated. There was a time in Athens, when everybody was opening a toastie shop. Cheap eats for travellers. A couple years later, only a few survived.

[TheMightyFavog]

22. Sounds like this barbershop in Appleton, WI I see ads for all the time...

http://www.sexyshears.com/

See a vid of their ad here:
http://wisconsinology.blogspot.com/2009/01/cable-oddities-1sexy-shears.html

[Lost in CT]

24. Subliminal advertising to increase latte sales.

I see nothing wrong with this... in this economy I expect more retail businesses to hire more attractive associates and downsize the ugly.

[Mrs. Overall]

27. "downsize the ugly"--are you being sarcastic when you say that you see nothing wrong with this?

So, the only people with jobs will be the "beautiful" individuals?

Screw anyone who isn't a Barbie or Ken?

[Lost in CT]

29. Sarcastic with a pinch of truthiness....

Retail establishments a few years ago, due to low wages and low unemployment, were forced to hire anyone who walked upright... nowadays with higher unemployment I'm sure some of their waitstaff or sales staff could find themselves upgraded to a more appealing and effective staff.

Kind of like how McDonalds used to hire teenagers... now you practically need an associates degree to get an interview.

[Mrs. Overall]

30. Got it--I thought that's what you meant.

[Stevenmarc]

25. Gee maybe their problem has to do with location

"There are 12 coffee stands and shops along the small strip of highway where the Beehive does business, and Tagle says every single one is falling apart because they won't go bikini."

No asshole your problem is market over saturation, what part of small strip of highway and 12 identical businesses do you not get. So when all 12 go bikini and your business drops off again what will the excuse be.

[anigbrowl]

38. Being first at something is usually a market advantage

Given two otherwise identical choices, people will stick with the habit they've already formed of going to one place rather than the other.

[TroglodyteScholar]

66. THANK YOU!

I was beginning to think that no one in this thread had the first clue about markets. Thanks for being the voice of reason in this mostly emotionally-charged thread....

:fistbump:

[Missy Vixen]

95. No, it's all about exploiting women

After all, it can be couched as "the free market", can't it?

[Mrs. Overall]

98. Thanks-- I was about to write the same thing.

It's not about the market; it's about the exploitation of young women to draw in male customers.

[TroglodyteScholar]

114. I would refer you to my response to Missy Vixen

It is MOST DEFINITELY about the market. It is also about exploitation. But our economic system is not based on fairness and good feelings. It's based on exploitation of all kinds, and these women are not the only object of such exploitation.

Edit: Got Missy Vixen's name wrong.

[TroglodyteScholar]

113. I don't disagree that it's exploitative...but that's the nature of capitalism.

Nobody is forcing these women to wear bikinis. They, as human beings with free will, are accepting the attire as a condition of their employment. Anyone who objects is free to pursue employment with another coffee stand that hasn't taken these drastic measures.

I really don't like the judgmental tone in your post. We're talking about reality here, not the ideal fantasy-land we'd all prefer to live in.

[Missy Vixen]

136. I don't like the fact you think it's just fine to objectify and demean women

for the "nature of capitalism".

>We're talking about reality here, not the ideal fantasy-land we'd all prefer to live in.

Women have fought for hundreds of years now for equality in the workplace, and freedom from sexual harassment.

I don't notice that SOB owner removing one item of clothing, but he compels his teenage female employees to do so?

Asking for an equal and harassment-free workplace is an "ideal fantasy-land"? Only for men.

[TroglodyteScholar]

145. Kindly show me where I said I'm "just fine" with it?

Just because I don't throw a little hissy fit like you have been on this thread doesn't mean I think everything's AOK.

On edit: BTW, shouldn't you be taking issue with the women who agree to these terms of employment? Such exploitation couldn't take place without people who are fully willing to take advantage of it for their own gain. Blaming it all on the owner is tantamount to declaring that HIS will is stronger than that of the WOMEN. You, yourself, in making this argument, are feeding that awful perception of women that you claim to stand so firmly against. You said yourself that the owner is "compelling" these women to do what they do. In reality, you're judging these women as being somehow helpless while I'm putting them on the same level as myself or anyone else.

[Lost in CT]

158. So woman have choice unless you don't approve of it...

You know some woman like their bodies.

[Stevenmarc]

139. Thank you, right back at you

It's a market issue, and quite frankly the coffee shop owners solution is gimmicky at best and doesn't solve the problem of 12 other competitors, sure he can expect a short term surge in business but the down side, as illustrated here, is that it tends to piss off a large percentage of your market.

His problem is that there are too many similar businesses in his area and he has to set himself apart, well he kinda did that, but he also get's bad PR out of it too. If it were me in that situation I would look for something a little more difficult to reproduce, arrange a bake off, great publicity, family friendly, you give cash prizes and for that you own the recipe that you then have made to sell, 12 other people aren't going to have those baked goods and people have to come to you to get them. Once you get them coming for the new merchandise you use the profits from the baked goods and undercut the coffee prices and squeeze out the competition, but that's just me.

[Art_from_Ark]

211. "Family friendly" drive-thru coffee shop?

How many kids want to go to a drive-thru coffee shop? Really, in all likelihood the main demographic of a shop like this is adults going to work, adults on lunch break, and adults coming home from work. I'm sure this would include lots of men.

[Stevenmarc]

227. So sorry

that your reading comprehension isn't all that up to snuff, it was the event in my post that was family friendly, not the coffee shop per se; it's no different than an electrician who sponsors a little league team, obviously kids don't call electricians but their parents do. Parents tend to like it when you do something nice for their kids, it's simply another way to set yourself apart from the competition.


Now the point you totally missed was that the event was designed to find a product that none of the competition has like an earth shattering cinnamon roll that would do more to build a sustained customer base of men and women than a gimmicky, flash in the pan bikini clad server who might bring in a few more guys but pisses off a female customer base.

[Naturyl]

153. I'm not interested in markets, I'm interested in human beings.

And I don't believe in the meaningless nonsense known as "free will." If you want to talk about "fantasy land," start there.

[TroglodyteScholar]

154. So you believe the only thing these bikini-clad baristas are capable of is showing off their bodies?

You don't think there are other jobs they could choose to try for?

I'm not talking about "free will" in the GWB, "we create our own reality" sense. I'm talking "free will" in the sense that unless you are truly a victim of human trafficking, you decide what job you are willing to do. The market, as well as your own willingness to advocate for yourself, determines what lifestyle that job will ultimately provide for you.

[Naturyl]

174. I'm sure there are other jobs, yes.

For me, this fact doesn't mitigate the reality that *someone* will always be doing the bikini jobs.

In addition, I don't find free choice regarding what job one will do very impressive, because there is absolutely NO viable choice to abstain from a job altogether. Until that choice exists as a reasonable option, for many people the choice of jobs available to them will essentially resemble choosing a slap on the face or a punch in the nose. Neither option is attractive. Such "choices" have little to do with genuine freedom, in my view.

[TroglodyteScholar]

206. Wow, now I understand your perspective.

No job should be an option? So don't think it's an essential part of the human experience to be productive? I guess I just can't relate.

[Naturyl]

225. Define "be productive."

I consider myself quite productive (when I want to be) and I haven't had a job in years. For me, "productivity" is not defined exclusively in economic terms. But beyond that, no - I don't consider "being productive" (economically or otherwise) an essential part of the human experience. If people want to be productive, they should certainly have every opportunity to do so. But if they don't share those values or goals (for whatever reason), they should not be denied the basic necessities of life.

Having no job should absolutely be an option, and until it becomes one, no real economic freedom will exist. "Work or starve" is an inherently coercive choice.

[TroglodyteScholar]

248. Yeahhh...we're just going to have to disagree.

I wish our bodies didn't require constant upkeep and shelter, but they do. And while, as a liberal, I believe we should help out our fellow human beings, I don't agree with you that anyone should be able to choose a life in which they don't do anything useful unless they intend to devise their own ways of coping and pay whatever economic consequences that choice entails.

In essence, I don't think we, as a society, should HAVE to take care of you simply because you don't want to take care of yourself. You're unable to? Fine. You need a big of help to get by? Fine. You just don't care enough to provide for yourself? Better figure out a way to deal, because that's not my problem.

[Naturyl]

268. Again, define "do anything useful."

"I don't agree with you that anyone should be able to choose a life in which they don't do anything useful unless they intend to devise their own ways of coping and pay whatever economic consequences that choice entails."

You definition of what is "useful" and another person's may vary dramatically. What you are essentially saying is that others should starve if they don't share your values and priorities.

As you state, we are are going to have to disagree on this.

[Raskolnik]

266. So who do you think should pay to support those who don't share the "values or goals" of work?

I am, thankfully, an able-bodied person that is capable of several types of work. If I decide tomorrow that I don't really like being "productive" and would rather read books all day by the lake, who should pay for my housing, my food, and my transportation?

Does the rest of society owe me food and shelter if I make the choice to avoid work simply because I don't care for it?

[Naturyl]

267. In my view, yes.

Either the basic necessities of life are universal human rights or they aren't. Attaching strings or making exceptions of any kind means they aren't.

[Raskolnik]

271. First, you didn't address *who* should pay to support me if I decide that I don't care for work.

We still live in the real world, so who is going to be tasked with paying for my dinner tonight if I would rather watch tv than work? Are you going to pay for it, or is there some subset of the population that will be forced to work to provide for the rest of us?

Second, you don't have an accurate understanding of what a "right" actually is: something may be a "right" for a person, yet society may reasonably require those able to provide for themselves. I have the right to free speech, but you are under no obligation to provide me with a newspaper subscription. Society should provide a safety net for those *unable* to provide for themselves, but society is under no obligation to subsidize those too lazy or selfish to work when the opportunity for work exists.

Your fantasy that able-bodied people should not be "forced" to provide for themselves is pure selfishness. There are people that need society's support, but those simply too lazy to do an honest day's work are not among them.

[Naturyl]

273. All of that is simply your opinion.

Rights are determined by consensus and bestowed by the society at large. Currently, the consensus agrees with your position - but that does not mean some of us cannot advocate for a different consensus.

The right to free speech does not entail being provided a newspaper subscription. Whether or not one has access to newspapers and the like has absolutely no bearing on their ability to exercise their own right to free speech, so the analogy is fatally flawed.

As for "pure selfishness," I tend to regard the desire to burden all citizens with the "work or starve" non-choice as exactly that. What this is essentially saying is "you must share my values and priorities or you have no right to a decent life." While you are entitled to this position, I won't characterize it as anything other than what it is.

If you do not support the establishment of unconditional human rights, that is your choice to make. If you don't like this idea, don't support it - but be careful when you attribute unflattering motives to others. "Selfishness" is a stone that should not be thrown by those who live in glass houses.

[Raskolnik]

276. Once again, you fail to answer the question of *who* should be tasked with working

to provide for those that believe, as you do, that able-bodied persons should not have to work to feed, clothe, and house themselves if they choose not to do so.

There is no magical box which provides your food and shelter. Someone, whether it is you or someone else, must work to provide the things you need to survive. Whose responsibility is it to provide for people that simply choose not to provide for themselves?

And yes, your approach is simply selfishness. There isn't anything revolutionary about wanting other people to provide everything you need without having to lift a finger to earn it--it's just that most people grow out of it by the time they turn 16 or so.

[Naturyl]

277. More personal attacks. Keep them coming.

I haven't addressed the question "who pays for it" because the answer is plainly obvious. You are just wanting me to specify it precisely, probably imagining that doing so will somehow discredit me or compromise my argument somehow.

Taxpayer receipts pay for it, of course. And yes, this does imply that some the production of some people would be used to support others. Oh noez!

This is already obvious to anyone reading the discussion, and your insistence on having me acknowledge it insults the intelligence of the audience. Naturally, ANY government income maintenance program relies on taxpayer revenue, and uses the production of some to support others. This proposal is no different. You simply find some of the potential recipients of this particular program "undeserving" - focusing solely on the small percentage who would habitually avoid work at the expense of all who could potentially benefit from the proposal.

Again, that's fine. That's your choice - but if all you want to do is cast aspersions on my character, I'm not going to bother responding further. Go call Neal Boortz and read him my posts - I'm sure the two of you can commiserate enjoyably about what a selfish, irresponsible individual I am.

[Raskolnik]

288. If you promote such a remarkably selfish worldview, don't be surprised when it is "attacked"

as being selfish. You aren't proposing charity for those that need it--you're proposing taking by those who want it.

The reason the society can (and should) provide a safety net for those genuinely unable to provide for themselves is because society does (and should) expect that those that are genuinly capable of providing for themselves do so, and contribute to the general welfare when able.

Your philosophy is not much more complicated than "I don't like to work, so someone else should have to work to give me the things I want." There is nothing noble about that--it is just an adolescent fantasy that doesn't place a negative value on contributing to the greater good.

[Naturyl]

295. Done with you, bud.

That's the last time you're going to denigrate me as "adolescent," etc. Welcome to my ignore list.

For anyone interested, please read The Case For a Guaranteed Minimum Income here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3817932

[Gwendolyn]

270. No one, as obviously everyone would be at the lake reading books with you.

There wouldn't be anyone to provide your housing, your food, or your transportation. The assumption is that only a small percentage of people, when given the choice, would prefer to sit around all day musing upon their existence. Obviously the reverse is true, and an enormous proportion of the population wants to sit on its ass all day. So if that privilege or option were advanced fairly to all, society would cease to function. It's just a narcissistic daydream of really selfish people that they should be provided for unconditionally, because they haven't got the empathy to realize that others would be working "for them." It's all about me.

[Raskolnik]

272. Well said. Narcissim masquerading as virtue. n/t

[Naturyl]

274. Proven false by studies, but don't let that stop you.

http://www.geocities.com/ubinz/Canada/HumSimpson.html

The data conclusively shows that provision of a guaranteed minimum income would result in only a small reduction in total hours worked - but since your mind is obviously made up, don't let facts stand in your way.

More derision and dime-store psychoanalysis, please. I use it to fuel my fleet of evil robots.

[Gwendolyn]

282. Bwahahaha!!!

You post a 1970s article concerning experiments conducted with LOW-INCOME families. Meaning I presume, and as indicated in the article, people worked with guaranteed taxable income added to what they were bringing in. What does that have to do with your post where you basically indicate that you have no interest in working, and that this aversion should be a good enough reason for others to unconditionally support you.

***I consider myself quite productive (when I want to be) and I haven't had a job in years. For me, "productivity" is not defined exclusively in economic terms. But beyond that, no - I don't consider "being productive" (economically or otherwise) an essential part of the human experience. If people want to be productive, they should certainly have every opportunity to do so. But if they don't share those values or goals (for whatever reason), they should not be denied the basic necessities of life.

Having no job should absolutely be an option, and until it becomes one, no real economic freedom will exist. "Work or starve" is an inherently coercive choice.***

You know, I'd LOVE to put my name on the sign-up sheet for "I don't wanna work and be supported till I die" too. Why not my next door neighbor, hell why not everybody? Oh wait, no society would ever encourage such a plan because it's basically ludicrous. And as we've seen from your subsequent posts, you really don't care about anyone else. As long as "you get yours." Because obviously, as you yourself stated, in order for you and/or others like you to be supported, others have to "work for you." You need the tax dollars glommed off the toiling of others. Your tude is no different than the AIG assholes, who believe it is their inherent right to feed off others. It's not because you need it, but because you want it, and screw everyone else. You aren't even ashamed of your narcissistic selfishness. You have a lot in common with the average Rethug.

[Naturyl]

296. Yeah, whatever.

Name calling and phony psychoanalysis again. Yawn... welcome to iggy list.

Those interested can read The Case for a Guaranteed Minimum Income here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3817932

[NashVegas]

236. Those Are the Same Arguments Used Against the Anti-Smoking Lobby

Look how well that went ...

[TroglodyteScholar]

247. The parallel you're drawing is fuzzy at best...

You don't honestly think any of these women will become physically or psychologically addicted to jobs that require them to appear in bikinis, do you? And please don't tell me that needing employment is the same as an addiction, because jobs that require a woman to wear a bikini are the exception, and will never ever be the rule. There is no slippery slope here that culminates in all employed women having to wear bikinis, and anyone who has a problem with the terms of her employment can seek employment elsewhere at any time.

Edit: grammar

[NashVegas]

250. What An Odd ...

No one was using an argument that restaurant waiters could get addicted to cigarettes from patrons smoking, they were arguing it increased the odds they could/would get cancer.

Likewise, opponents of the Bikini Business solution see where teenaged girls in bikinis are more likely to suffer sexual harassment and other problems via connecting self-worth to how many mochas they can convince someone to buy based on showing skin. And don't say that's not a factor, or the business owner would never have made that decision.

[NashVegas]

235. Sorry, But Sometimes, Irrationality *Should* Trump Reason

And this is one of those cases, because if others decide they have to go bikini to compete, there're that many more teen girls who will have to make the choice between baring it and keeping their job.

[TroglodyteScholar]

246. But you're not giving these women any credit, either...

"..the choice between baring it and keeping their job" is a false choice that assumes they are only capable of doing that one job at that one employer. Give these women a bit of credit, will ya? The don't need a savior in you or me.

[treestar]

256. In a bad job market, that could be so

In a good market, sure, quit and get another job. In a bad one, quitting one because you don't want to wear just a bikini would leave you "unproductive." That can't be allowed, can it? So how is it a free choice?

And who are the idiots who buy coffee based on what the barista is wearing? This is why I'll never be rich. Gawd, the public is stupid.

[MattBaggins]

160. He'll up the ante and force the girls to give BJs from the drive through

window. The libertards around here will applaud this brilliant business experiment.

[Blue_Tires]

26. the creepiness of people flocking to buy

coffee at the place with the skin-baring jailbait teens says as much about the customer base as it does about the owner...

[Zywiec]

33. Where in the article does it mention the age of the girls? n/t

[Mrs. Overall]

36. It doesn't mention the age, but as a WA resident , I can accurately say

that most of the baristas working in drive-through coffee places are in their mid to late teens (17-20) or are college age. My daughter is almost 17 and she has several female friends who have weekend jobs at these places.

Of course, there are women over 25 who work as baristas at drive-through stands and some men, but the majority are women under 25.

[Zywiec]

39. What's the age of consent there in WA?

If you said they are jailbait, and 17-20 years old, is it the same age as the drinking age?

:shrug:

[Mrs. Overall]

42. I didn't say jailbait--that was Blue_Tires up above my post.

The age of consent in WA is 16.

I think "jailbait" was used figuratively.

[paulsby]

46. age of consent is 16 unless

you are within a certain # of months in age to the other party, then there are legal sexual relations at 15 and 14.

below 14 is always illegal.

[Bunny]

40. I've often thought that about the local bikini car washes.

Cute young high school girls in bikinis will wash your car. What sort of creepy perv actually does this? It's really skeevy.

[Blue_Tires]

49. yeah, those are VERY popular in my town every spring

[Zywiec]

51. Hard to imagine anyone liking cute young high school girls in bikinis

:rofl:

[Mrs. Overall]

52. Do you have a cute teenage daughter?

For those of us who do, believe me, none of us like older men leering at them.

I think men and women see this very differently. From the responses on this thread I dare to say that I can tell which DUers are male and which are female.

[redqueen]

59. Threads like this are so depressing...

for that very reason.

[Mrs. Overall]

62. Yes, it is depressing. Recently on DU there was a thread about a DUer giving a teen prostitute

a ride home in the rain from a gas station.

The responses fell into two categories:

1. Poor child, how kind of you to take her home, how can we address such issues as a society, etc...
2. How much did she charge for a blowjob, did you get some, was she a cute whore, etc...

[redqueen]

64. Jesus.

I might have to find that one and expand my ignore list.

[seabeyond]

88. at some point the last decade, female is exclusively meant for male entertainment

even in buying a cup of coffee. females use to have many more dominant roles, but now it seems the female is simply there to entertain male. when did us women decide that is who we are. from beginning of time until about the 50's we thought our role was to "take care" of the man. now it has merely shifted to "entertain" male. and we are happy and giggly over it?

[MattBaggins]

165. Hey there are a few of us men who won't fall

for the Libertard BS about how it is all fine an dandy to objectify women. Then again, in the interest of disclosure I have two little girls.

[Mrs. Overall]

169. I know, it's not right to lump men into one category--assuming they all would

flock to this place for a latte.

Thanks for the reminder that there are a lot of men out there, dads or not, who don't objectify women and who are willing to speak out when they see it happening.

[tabasco]

182. Adults working in a coffee shop are not your little girls.

Get a life.

[seabeyond]

198. cute young girls in highschool.... is what people where responding to on this subthread

it would be good for this dude to actually get a life, as a man going for the cute young girls in high school.

[seabeyond]

53. some actually think of them as kids, and are creeped out by your suggestion. n/t

[Mrs. Overall]

54. Good response.

[kwassa]

74. I would like to think these girls had parents that put their foot down and said no.

It is overt sexualizing of minors.

[Mrs. Overall]

86. Another point is that these girls in bikinis are often working alone in a stand along a highway.

And are they really going to stand up to some 50 year old guy in a pickup telling them they've got cute tits?

[seabeyond]

91. and the reason a 50 yr old man can be an ass ot a girl is cause the girl isnt

experienced, confident or old enough to tell the guy to fuck off and (some) men know this and abuse this

but hey, wtf, the old fart can puff out his chest and feel all manly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

102. lol

I only get my car washed at the Burqa car washing places.

[Missy Vixen]

61. But it's the market!

It's the free market! That trumps all other considerations! Plus, they're hawt!

:sarcasm:

I never thought I'd live to see the day that RW talking points would be considered acceptable on this site...

[paulsby]

70. nobody said

it trumps all other considerations.

but look at it from another perspective.

the business owner.  he's made a large capital investment.  he
sees his business failing.  he adopts a (at one time) novel
(not so much any more) strategy to increase revenue.  

it's perfectly legal, and it's no different than, for example,
a place like cowgirls inc. where women are hired to be
scantily clad bartenders, and dance on the bar as well as
serve drinks.

the place is frigging PACKED in downtown seattle btw.

and maybe if enough people find it offensive, they will choose
to spend their coffee money elsewhere, and that will
incentivize businesses NOT to have bikini baristas.

[wickerwoman]

173. Again,

the business owner's business is failing because he's on a strip with 12 identical businesses. He should take his large capital investment and invest it where he won't have to compete with twelve other business owners, not start exploiting his underage employees.

The minimum age for bartenders is 21. If 21 year olds want to wear bikinis and shake their asses on bars in front of skeevy 50 year olds they are welcome to it. The minimum age to work in a drive through coffee place is 16. It's exploitative to tell a 16 year old she has to wear a bikini to work for a job that has absolutely nothing to do with showing your tits.

In 1982, Northwest Airline flight attendants won an employment discrimination suit because the airline fired employees who gained weight. There's a lot more justification (although still not much) for saying that flight attendants have to stay slim than only hiring bikini-friendly barristas. It should be illegal to include hiring criteria that are irrelevant to the task at hand (as is already in the case of age, race, religion and sexual orientation.) Would it be OK to refuse to hire black employees in a racist neighborhood because it would hurt your business?

(on a side note, I'm also in Seattle and unemployed and there is f'in *nothing* out there. I can't even get shitty retail work or temp stuff with an MA. I find it hard to believe that at 32 my options are a.) get shot at or b.) squeeze my ass into a bikini so I can sell coffee :eyes: cause, trust me, there is fuck all else out there. Oh, and the coffee guy didn't say he was hiring.)

[Naturyl]

191. What are you, Rip Van Winkle?

I see RW talking points plastered all over this site every single day. Anytime employment, welfare, or pretty much anything involving money come up, there's going to be plenty of it.

[tonysam]

194. And "Libertarian."

I thought this site was called "Democratic Underground."

[Lost in CT]

179. I think they are over 18... they look like strippers.

[aikoaiko]

193. Down the road from me is a We-bare-all cafe.

Its just weird getting served a hamburger and coke by a hot woman wearing nothing but tennis shoes.

[brooklynite]

32. To those complaining about this...what's the alternative?

I could cut back hours, I could let some employees go, or I could try and do what we could

The drive-throughs in question aren't branches of Starbucks. They're small, generally single location operations which generally have a lot of competition under the best of situations. If business is off, would you prefer that the baristas be let go or paid less?

[PfcHammer]

43. I don't like saying but I would rather the shops fail than stoop

to this. I suspect the skin won't save them
if they all do it because the novelty will wear off.

[DainBramaged]

47. You do what you gotta do to survive, period.

If people want to look at girls in bikinis, let 'em look. They need buffed guys now so it equals out the purer than thou crowd

[Missy Vixen]

69. They're not going to hire the buffed-out guys

After all, it's all about the teen girls. Buffed out guys who would appeal to women or gay people will be considered beyond the pale.

Interesting to note that women have worked for hundreds of years to be treated as equals, but at the first economic downturn, it's time for us to show skin to get a job in a venue that it's not a necessary thing.

What's next? Toplessness at the office? How about the mall? It'll drive sales, won't it? :sarcasm:

[Jennicut]

75. Yeah, where are the hot men? So the only people who buy coffee are men?

Or lesbian women?

[paulsby]

82. so stop yer whinging and DO something

open up a buffed out guys in skimpy outfits coffee shop and see how it does.

heck, i would bet dollars to doughnuts (or tripple lattes and scones) that there are some areas where you might do quite well with such a strategy.

the business owner is responding to a poor economy and innovating, and apparently there is market demand to buy coffee from women in bikinis.

maybe there is market demand to buy from ripped/buffed d00ds in skimpy shorts.

if so, more power to you. FEED THE DEMAND.

[Missy Vixen]

90. And you completely miss the point

It's demeaning to require others to show skin as a condition of employment. Period.

Then again, I'm sure that's of no consequence to you.

[paulsby]

96. fine, then bikini modeling and other such jobs are demeaning

fwiw, i used to do a little runway modeling in college.

wore shorts, flip flops and nuttin' else a few times.

was that demeaning? i don't think so. but regardless, it was my choice.

and regardless of whether it's demeaning, it is a matter of CHOICE.

or do you propose that bikini baristas should be made illegal?

again, what REMEDY?

[Mrs. Overall]

104. Don't you understand the difference between being a model and making espresso--

Yes, being a model is all about your body and the job often entails nudity or partial nudity.

No, being a barista and working an espresso machine is not about partial nudity. When you make it about partial nudity then it becomes something else.

Any job can be "sexualized"--why not have nude employees at the Quicki-Mart?

[paulsby]

109. but here';s my point.

yes, selling coffee in bikinis, CHANGES the job.

they are no longer just baristas.

the job is essentially hybridized. they are selling sexuality, as well as coffee.

just like, for example, a hooters girl, or a cowgirls inc bartender.

i readily admit there is a difference between selling coffee, and selling coffee in a bikini.

now, in the broadest sense, ANY salesperson is also selling themself. we all know this is true, just ask any good salesman.

but yes, it CHANGES the job when an explicit aspect of the job is your sexuality.

ever watch naked news btw?

but being a model, to be more correct is not ALL about your body. your body is a tool, often sexualized to SELL a product- the clothes.

that is analogous to this situation, where the sexuality is used to sell coffee.

like i said, *i* would not patronize such a coffee establishment, nor would i want my wife or daughter to work there.

[MattBaggins]

168. In your all mighty modeling world

are the girls naked 40 hours a week? Are there rules in place that give that sheets in between sets and limits to the number of people around the area. What would happen to a camera man that said "nice tits" to a model?

No one cares about your "what remedy", what ever the hell that means. We get all we need to know with your "not my wife or kids". Just like most guys I know with daughters who don't care as long as it's some other guys girl. They are all from low life poor families so who gives a shit about them.

[paulsby]

217. most models

aren't naked at all.

nor are these bikini baristas, so why do you and others keep going on about nudity.

there is no nudity here.\

"No one cares about your "what remedy", "

so you now speak for everybody? that arrogance is truly amazing

"Just like most guys I know with daughters who don't care as long as it's some other guys girl. They are all from low life poor families so who gives a shit about them."

what utter rubbish. i do care. i simply do not think GOVERNMENT should be able to tell this business owner he can't run a bikini coffee business. i will vote with MY dollars by not patronizing such establishments.

there are all sorts of careers i would not want my wife or daughter involved in...

nude model
massage therapist
bartender
hooters waitress
bikini barista
stripper
etc.

but i am not arrogant enough to say that people don't have the right to choose such careers, etc.

i am reasonably confident my wife or daughter wouldn't want ME working as a stripper either.

just because *i* like or don't like something does not give me the right to tell other people how to live their lives.

THAT is progressive.

what you are saying is that you know what's best for these girls.

how patronizing.

[Jennicut]

93. LMAO! My husband would probably not be too happy with me.

To me this is like s step down from going to the strip club if you are married. Its not totally bad but its kind of up there.

[Missy Vixen]

101. Jennicut, ooh, yeah

My husband might have something to say about the following: Maybe the Seahawks' defensive line would be happy to wash our car in Speedos. I'm not exploiting them or anything, am I?

LOL.

Here's a funny: The photographers at the NFL combine the last two years in a row were not allowed to take photos of shirtless players. Why? Tom Brady of the Patriots complained about it...

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

100. Oh ffs

Just because something is "acceptable" and there's a demand for it does not make it right, which is something you encounter daily as a police officer. Hell, there are things that are legal which certainly aren't right.

But I suppose when one elevates the free market to deity status, pretty much anything goes as long as there's demand and it will turn a quick buck.

[Missy Vixen]

105. It's perfectly okay

>Just because something is "acceptable" and there's a demand for it does not make it right, which is something you encounter daily as a police officer.<

at another website that shall not be named, isn't it? :rofl:

[paulsby]

106. i am saying it IS right

in the same way that i think nude modeling, bikini modeling, or stripping or cowgirls inc are not morally wrong.

i believe that it is morally ok for people to sell their sexuality as part of a business model, whether it's madonna, danica patrick, or anybody else.

i am saying that i respect the business owner's choice to choose this particular business model.

*i* would not patronize his store, nor would i want my wife or daughter working there.

but i do not begrudge him the choice, nor would i criticize a woman or girl who chose to work there.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

110. This isn't about "choice" because the "choice" of which you speak is imaginary.

The employees here are told to either not wear a top or to lose their job (we both know that chances of finding another similar job are slim to nil, so stop throwing about the they-can-go-work-somewhere-else strawman). In this economy that's tantamount to labor blackmail.

Therefore, the only way there is freedom of choice is in the same sense that the good people of North Korea can either vote for the Party or not.

[paulsby]

112. ah yes. the classic "the choice is illusory" canard

yes, the employees have to participate in the business model or lose their job.

the employer has the right to CHOOSE HIS FRIGGING BUSINESS MODEL.

they can lose their job.

he can lose his business.

they can choose not work for him.

they are, as far as i know, at will employees.

no at will employee has a RIGHT to continue working for their employer.

but look at the corrollary of what you are saying. so you are saying the BUSINESS OWNER does not have the choice to choose the bikini model, but must continue to employ non-bikini'd employees and if his business fails, so be it?

really?

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

115. So be it. NO business owner has the right to exploit his/her workers

beyond what was agreed upon at the time of hire without renegotiation. Frankly, it sounds to me like he knowingly entered a glutted market to begin with, and now that times are tough he's willing to exploit his apparently predominantly young female staff to stay afloat. Maybe if he were providing a superior product to begin with, he wouldn't be in this mess. Let the market sort it out.

Besides, it seems like you're saying that the free market should only sort things out in the favor of business owners and not the laborers, so don't come bandying the hypocrisy card at me.

We're all hypocrites. It's a matter of degree, n'est pas?

[paulsby]

118. then you disagree with the concept of "at will" employment

i don't.

i'm saying that there are many aspects of a free market, and many manifestations of choice.

heck, you could make the argument that *i* am being wronged, because i can't (presumably) apply for a job as a bikini barista!

i am not saying the market should sort things out in favor of the business owner OVER the laborers.

i am saying they both have rights and they both have responsibilities.

and when it comes to at will employees, they do NOT have the right to continued employment at the same business model they were hired under.

i, for example, have for more rights in that regard, but i am not an at will employee.

welcome to civil service and unionization.

the VAST majority of small businesses fail. last i checked, about 80%+.

so, yes, i do recognize that employers should not be hamstrung like you are proposing such that they cannot change their business model.

it sucks for the employee who doesn't want to do the bikini thang, that she can no longer work there.

it would suck worse to REQUIRE the employer not to adopt such a model

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

130. You clearly don't understand what I'm saying.

I said what he's doing was wrong and that he's a bad businessman in general. If he opened that place as a bikini stop and the workers expected that, fine. But his maneuver smacks of nothing but exploitation, not cleverness.

I'm not talking about issues of will-it-work-or-not or even legal-or-illegal. Perhaps you are. I'm discussing a matter of ethics, and I hold for my previously stated reasons that this man's behavior is unethical.

It will be interesting to see how the market reacts. However, we both know that the market does not always move in the ethical direction.

[paulsby]

138. and what i'm saying

is that he is clearly responding to a sucky market, and i am not going to fault him for it.

he is not doing it out of spite or lack of care of his employees.

his business model wasn't working. so he is changing his business model.

i don't find it unethical, but i also don't find strip clubs, cowgirls inc, nude modeling, etc. unethical.

it seems to me that you believe he has a duty ot his employees, since he hired them under the previous model, to NOT adopt this new model.

we of course disagree.

[MattBaggins]

170. Please spare us

No the pig doesn't have the right to exploit girls to keep his business running. If he fails too bad.

You are one of those "at will" fanatics aren't you.

[paulsby]

216. not at all

and i'm not an at will employee. i'm a proud union member, and have been for a loooong time (at least at this job). i've also worked as an at will, both part time (concurrent with current employment) and prior.

here's the thing. this is a small business. certainly less than 20 employees i would guess.

small businesses necessarily need more flexibility and are granted that by the federal labor laws, as well as the laws of most states.

all sorts of reg's that apply to larger businesses (judged by # of employees) do not apply to small businesses.

consider that even given this flexibility, 4/5 + FAIL.

if we saddle these small businesses with onerous regulations, we hurt the mom and pop's.

it's all about (like so much else in business and politics) about tradeoffs.

this business owner is adopting a new business model. his current employees, assuming they are your standard at will, have the option of staying on under that new model, or leaving.

many people CLAIM they support small businesses but when it comes down to brass tacks, they want to saddle small businesses with onerous regulations etc.

ever tried to run a small business? it's difficult and most of them fail.

[Naturyl]

186. Thank you.

"Choice" and "freedom" are fantasies all-too-often indulged in by a nation awakened by alarm clocks.

In the real world, meaning the one that is a completely authoritarian dictatorship from 9 to 5 each day, "choice" doesn't mean much. You do what boss man says or you risk a nice vacation at the Salvation Army.

[paulsby]

220. this tired rhetoric is just that

adults have responsibility.

choice doesn't mean choice WITHOUT consequences.

[Naturyl]

187. duplicate post

n/t

[treestar]

257. And it's a "choice" the rich, or the daughters of the rich, never

even have to confront.

These libertarians never recognize that just because it is a "choice" doesn't mean it is making them happy, either.

These girls put up with a lot of crap during the day and one can imagine what they think of it in private.

[Gwendolyn]

259. Tell that to all the rich, young starlets who can't stop taking their clothes off for the camera.

Lindsey Lohan comes to mind right away. Strangers across America have seen more of her body than her gynecologist.

Of COURSE rich girls won't be wearing a bikini in an espresso booth. They won't be working at McDonalds, pumping gas or working at the local Mini-Mart fully clothed either. And you might be surprised to know what young women today think or don't think is appropriate.

[treestar]

289. If it gets you a lot of $$, then it might be worth it

But only then is it some type of great opportunity or choice.

These girls are just serving coffee! What are they making at it? It's not getting them enough to justify it.

It's not some great opportunity. In fact, it's a foolish choice. They're not getting enough in return for it.

[seabeyond]

107. fuck integrity. hmmmmm. kinda where our corps and business sit today

and has caused so much problem thru out the world

[MattBaggins]

167. There is a demand for sex with teen girls

since WA has an age of consent of 16; should we pursue filling that niche as well?

[Naturyl]

192. There is market demand for snuff films.

You okay with that, too? "More power to them," or no?

[Gwendolyn]

207. What a bizarre thing to say. Going from bikinis to murder.

You have a very warped view of sexuality.

[Naturyl]

224. Curb those assumptions, please.

I have no problem with bikinis.

My issue is with the whole idea that whatever there is "market demand" for is okay to do. That was the point I was making.

[Darth_Kitten]

177. Yes, let's have more low-paying, shit-assed, predominately female professions all go topless.

I hate this world.

[MattBaggins]

166. Got to do what ever to survive

Could we ask them to give some hand jobs under the counter too and sing praises to the Free Market?

[treestar]

258. Exactly, to those for whom the free market is sacred, it doesn't

matter how miserable those on the bottom have it - it's just what they have to do to survive.

[ddeclue]

83. Couldn't do this in NJ apparently as getting a bikini wax will soon be illegal..

:rofl:

[kimmylavin]

108. Ugh.

Check out the MySpace page for this: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=454193483

No, this doesn't look like porn...
"About me: The Beehive Espresso is ALL about getting men up in the morning with a HOT Sexy coffee! Stop by order a drink and get a sexy suprise!"

I'm still kind of hoping the page is a joke?

[Mrs. Overall]

111. Not a joke. Here's the owner with his girls:

[seabeyond]

116. he looks like just another guy pimpin it out to me. n/t

[tonysam]

196. Joe Conforte Comes to Mind. n/t

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

117. I'll be surprised if women's rights/labor lawyers don't swarm over this. nt

[Mrs. Overall]

120. The myspace page has a lot more photos of him with the girls and the girls

making espresso in their business attire.

[paulsby]

122. you wouldn;'t be surprised

if you understood labor law, "at will" employment, etc.

these are not new. and they are entirely legal.

they do not fit under either prong of sex harassment laws, and this business model has already been vetted.

it's been going on for some time, and i can guarantee you if your legal theory held water, there would be attorneys already litigating this.

that's what they do

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

131. Having fun shoving words in my mouth?

I have no legal theory.

And you're right, it is what lawyers do. And sometimes they're slow to act.

Anyway, I'm done with you. Having a conversation with you on the subject is like hitting my head against the wall - unpleasant and giving me a headache. Take care on the beat, sir.

[Lost in CT]

161. Why????? Why can't woman have the freedom of choice????

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

183. Interesting......

.....that women's rights groups and labor lawyers would look to take away jobs from women making a choice.

[Bunny]

124. I'm waiting for someone to comment on how fat the girls are.

You know it's coming...

[seabeyond]

128. wink. n/t

[Mrs. Overall]

159. DUers started a whole separate thread on it--making fun of these girls:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5267963

[seabeyond]

162. that is the RESPECT you are witnessing, that they just insist

they are FULL of.

[Mrs. Overall]

164. Some of them even posted on this thread and then went over there and made fun of the girls--

using words like boobies, titties, and jugs.

True progressives.

[seabeyond]

199. exactly. the hypocrisy of our du males (not all). rights, it is their right, how dare you take

away their rights. not demeaning, not disrespectful. then are pigs. and they really act like they fool anyone. oh they do. a group of female that get such a kick out of these assholes males talking about them with such respect giggle giggle, see how much they LIKE me. it is ridiculous.

[paulsby]

221. and the hypocrisy of others here

who think they have the right to tell these girls they can't be bikini models, or this business owner that he can't use such a business model.

these same people who think they know what's best for others and are perfectly willing to make these choices for others.

don't like these people;'s choices?

then don't patronize their frigging business.

buy coffee somewhere else.

vote with your dollars.

[seabeyond]

228. the majority of posts and certainly mine

it isnt saying they arent allowed. the majority are addressing that once again we use girls to sexualize a damn cup of coffee.

actually, my posts havent even been directed at that mostly. except maybe the guy standing amongst the girl looking like a pimp.

the post you jump on is the hypocrisy of the male standing up for these girls to strip for their pleasure, and the respect one has for these girls, not demeaning, as they go to another thread and speak in very disrespectful ways about the girls. the hypocrisy is the poster insists on the purity of this decision by some male owner using females for males entertainment, a pimp, as the poster states not ok for his family females, or for men to look at his females as things, the comments, the jeers not ok for his loved ones, but other females, fine. that is the hypocrisy. had nothing to do with what you are talking about in your post to me.

personally, i dont care about these swimsuits. i dont think they look good and i dont think they are condusive to business and i dont think it is drawing people in. what else are they going to say. they are trying to get business.

[paulsby]

249. the evidence is all around

"i dont think they are condusive to business and i dont think it is drawing people in"


i drive by expresso stands in seattle area all the time.

several of them are of the bikini variety, and they are doing gangbusters business.

people aren't choosing this business model because they THINK it draws people in. they know it.

it's pretty clear if you talk to some baristas, and ask them how the bikini coffee shops are doing.

[seabeyond]

269. i just think of the man, the grown adult male

give his wife a kiss goodbye for the day, pat daughter on the head, running his ass over to a coffee house to oggle a couple young girls in bikinis, maybe a couple classless, or crude comments and then he puffing out his chest to meet his day feelin like a man.

creeps.

but then

whatever

lordy that is sad

[mitchum]

144. Although it would be only fair, I don't want to see that pig in a Speedo

[Missy Vixen]

205. I'll bet he thinks he's the Hugh Hefner of espresso stand ownership

I also think it's interesting that he's fully dressed, while expecting those who work for him to wear as little as possible.

[ACTION BASTARD]

119. I support bikini clad AMERICAN workers!

USAUSAUSAUSAUSA!

[AyanEva]

125. Well...

I suppose it's better than no job at all. I'd probably rather wear a bikini and have work than cover up and starve.

But I don't think anyone wants to see me in a bikini. It would probably drive away sales.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

127. This is what really gets me.

Fifteen years ago Mr. Tagle decided to open a business in Seattle, Washington, the coffee capital of our fine Republic. What kind of business does he open? A coffee stand.

That was mistake number one. Entering an already-glutted market. Sure, he'd get a bit of the action and make a tidy profit as long as the economy keeps rolling along and the glut can be tolerated by the local economy. But then the recession hit. People have less expendable income, and more and more people are tightening their belts by eliminating conveniences and luxuries, such as coffee. Something's got to give, and it's not going to be the consumers' temperance.

Instead of spending those boom years trying to figure out how to compete more efficiently and how to out maneuver his rivals, he sat on his laurels and didn't improve his product in any way to differentiate it from the competition. Keep in mind, even "mindless" animals have learned how to differentiate themselves from and out-compete each other. If a penguin can do it, there's no reason a man can't. When the recession hit, business understandably drops. You reap what you sow.

Tagle sees how screwed he is. But rather than make some very hard decisions (such as cutting pay, including his own; firing workers, changing operating hours), he notices that he's employed three young ladies who aren't even old enough to purchase alcohol legally. He decides to have them strip down to their swimsuits and sell "sexy coffee" whatever that means. To the girls the choice is strip down or go find another job because there are plenty of girls who would be willing to do this (and he's probably right in that assumption).

And so Tagle stays afloat by exploiting vulnerable workers. And what's still interesting is that there are some here on a progressive board that hail him as a true businessman (A true inspiration to the children!). But if he were really a clever merchant, he wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

[Mrs. Overall]

133. Great post and insightful analysis of all of the issues--not just the exploitation.

[Gwendolyn]

135. Of course, what a stupid man. He OWED it to the world to be a diviner of the future -

of the economy. Just like those brilliant folks over at Starbucks. They made the wise decisions, unlike this dude. :eyes:

I wouldn't get into this argument as to whether or not it's moral, but this last post of yours, boggles the mind. Perhaps you'd like to institute a faction of government called the Business Police who can go around and shut you down based on your business acumen.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

146. Oh please.

A decent businessman should be able to at least prepare for bad times. If he couldn't do that then maybe he needs to rethink his path.

[Gwendolyn]

149. You really need to start a separate thread highlighting your brilliant thoughts.

I'm sure there are a number of DUers who went into the "wrong" line of work years ago, finding themselves out on the street because they couldn't foresee the sudden economic turn, or that their jobs might be outsourced. These people must have 80 IQs to have been so shortsighted. And all those business owners out there who've gone bust due to the economy, what assholes!!!

[closeupready]

132. What about making better coffee?

:shrug:

[Missy Vixen]

140. But -- but -- but

Why would he want to do that, when he can compel very young women to work in a bikini?

[closeupready]

143. Oh, right. Silly me.

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

218. Choice 1: Good coffee. Choice 2: Good coffee + bewbies. Duh.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

148. why don't they have scantily clad men there too?

[Missy Vixen]

151. Because the vast majority of women

would be embarrassed to buy coffee from a guy in a Speedo, no matter how hawt he was.

After all, we don't like being harassed. Why would we want to do it to someone else?

[Naturyl]

152. It's vaguely offensive, but not necessarily because of the bikinis

What I find creepy about it is the rather blatant manner in which such businesses are perfectly willing to do "whatever it takes" to keep selling their wares. One wonders whether if public stonings were somehow legal, these businesses would feature them.

I don't wonder too long, though. Of course they would.

[Zuiderelle]

163. Wonderful, Just what we need, more young women who base their self-worth on their bodies.

What happens to the servers who aren't so buff as the ones shown in the picture? What happens to women who might be a bit too modest to expose themselves in a bikini? Goodbye, you're fired, there's no room for someone who cares about the job they do, only room for women who have great bodies and are comfortable being gawked at by strangers.

It's one thing if the coffee shop started out with this gimmick. Fine, everyone working there knows going in what the deal is. But the owner desperately changing the game midstream to stay afloat? Fuck that noise. I hope a former employee who didn't agree to this sues him.

[krabigirl]

175. Agree with you. Women shouldn't have to bare everything to get a job.

I would never have done that in my twenties or early 30s(the only time when I had the body to do so, lol). I was far too modest and shy. And what about men...they can't get a job there as a barista? Isn't that discrimination?

[Lost in CT]

171. These girls look like any other bikini waitress or stripper...

I think that top photo was a tad misleading.

[MattBaggins]

172. Can anyone in the area of this Coffee house

find out who the supplier of the coffee is so folks could let them know how they feel?

[tabasco]

178. What dou you think they're gonna do?

Stop selling them coffee?

[MattBaggins]

209. Most likely not

But if people wrote the corporate HQ of that company and told them how they felt they might consider putting pressure on them. I would also go so far as to contact other places such as gas stations that sell the same coffee and let them know that you feel that they should find a different coffee supplier.

It isn't easy but it is perfectly fair in the "almighty free market" to put on some pressure.

[Darth_Kitten]

176. Well, if sex sells, where's the beefcake?

Women drink coffee, too, boys, not just make it. :eyes:

[leftstreet]

202. The day men in speedos sell coffee, is the day coffee is outlawed

Men cannot handle the notion of sexual objectification of themselves.

[seabeyond]

204. their ego cant. can you inagine this man, standing with his "girls" allowing another man

to step in his terrirtory. he would be limp and little.

[Darth_Kitten]

226. Well, maybe they should get used to it.........

Some can dish it out but they can't take it....well well.....

:)

[Missy Vixen]

237. OMG

>Men cannot handle the notion of sexual objectification of themselves.

I wonder what the reaction would be if women they weren't interested in were leering at them while they were dressed in little to nothing.

I've read the comments here before from guys who were forced to endure the attentions of some woman that was most likely being polite, but they were convinced that She Wanted Them.

You are absolutely right -- there isn't a guy in the world that would stand still for something like this, but it's okay to force women to do so. We're nothing more than playtoys to some men.

[seabeyond]

238. cenk on tyt, biggest sexist pig, though i love his political show, like him too, but

ONE time he had a picture of a male model in underwear. the guy was hot.... real hot, and posed. now cenk, every day, gets pictures of naked girls, making comments like, i could do her. she isnt great, but i could do her. sounds pathetic, and you know, none of these girls would "do" him. anyway i digress

he has this picture of the naked guy (k, underwear) and shows picture for about 15 secs, maybe... talking about story behind the picture and finally you hear him in about a panick, ... ok get it off, get it off... like he couldnt handle having that naked picture of a guy, but oh, give him the naked pictures of girls and he will endlessly run the many he has over and over and over while he talks about doing them

ego couldnt even kinda handle seeing a hot naked guy. so telling.

[Hippo_Tron]

283. I think there's some interesting considerations here

I think that men would sell coffee in swim trunks, which are considered conventional swimwear in the United States. Speedos are generally really unpopular here, other than for professional swimmers, both amongst men who might wear then and women who might want to look at men wearing them. However, in Europe, that isn't necessarily the case. For example...



Interestingly enough though, men in the United States used to wear swimsuits and shorts of that length all of the time back in the 1970's. At some point along the way it was decided that the norm in United States fashion was that men should not wear any shorts or swim trunks that reveal any skin above their knee.

So I think if that sort of swimwear were normal here, you could get men to serve coffee in it. But maybe it's a sign of our misogyny that such swimwear isn't normal and that men have tended toward much more modest shorts and swim trunks.

[countryjake]

245. Maybe the Mariners should try this to fill up the stands at games this season...

half-naked athletes playing ball should do wonders to boost our team's sagging ticket sales!

[Missy Vixen]

265. There was a $2 million bounty for a nude photo of Ichiro

It was widely reported in the press here. I'm not sure if it's still happening in Japan, but for years, Ichiro would practically climb inside his locker to change after a game.

All Seattle fans love Ichiro, but in the nude photo sweepstakes, I'd have to go with someone else. :blush:

[countryjake]

291. I thought he said that he'd take one himself, but only if it meant...

that everyone who'd been stalking him for such a pic would immediately disappear from the planet. Ya gotta love the guy's simple dignity. Couldn't care less what he might look like in the buff, ha!

[Lucian]

180. This thread is a...

Good god.

[Mrs. Overall]

184. I think this thread is a train wreck because Americans are schizophrenic about sex--

Look at the variety of viewpoints among us Democrats.

I think females and males look at things dealing with sexuality differently and I think as a society we are Puritanical and at the same time we use sex to sell everything from coffee to cars to potato chips.

[Lucian]

195. I'm have mixed emotions about this topic as well.

[seabeyond]

200. i want the 70's and 80's when sex was fun and females were

actually appreciated, valued, humans, .... not things

[Gwendolyn]

203. We must have lived through different eras of the 80s.

Don't know much about the 70s, but we did get rid of our "oldies" channel cause watching some of those 70s shows were puke-inducing. The way "women's lib" was disparaged in the most condescending way, laughed at by men... I'm thinking especially of the last one we watched that broke the camel's back - some cowboy cop in New York drama where all the cops are splitting their sides over the "manly womin's lib" female detective. Three's Company with that unwatchable blonde bimbette was no better. The Norman Mailer debate with the feminists was pathetic. Hard to believe women allowed themselves to talked to that way, and that level of patronizing discourse would not happen today.

I remember the The 80s had women first starting on the whole terrible merry-go-round of clawing cut throat up in the ranks of the board room 15 hours a day, then going home and caring for children and a household "no problem" meme. As I remember, what with the whole diet and fitness explosion during that decade, that's when overeating and purging started to become a popular female pastime. American Psycho was written in the 80s, and was quite the expose on our society, including the way women were treated.

Maybe you're just looking back with rose-colored glasses.

[Lost in CT]

243. I'll give you sex was fun.... I think your other point is some sort of sick joke...

woman were exploited much more in the 70's and 80's then they are today

[Echo In Light]

241. Americans are pretty fucked up in general due to adherence to propaganda "reality"

[treestar]

260. One wonders how easily sex would sell if we WEREN'T so Puritanical

You think there might be a connection?

Interesting issue.

[Hippo_Tron]

285. No it's not, it's a good debate about personal choice vs potential objectification of women

It's a good example of how liberals can disagree greatly on certain issues.

[Imagevision]

185. Well, would it be a bad idea to legalize prostitution nationwide, alllow the ladies to decide?

[seabeyond]

201. you do know the pitfalls of legalization and it isnt all pretty woman

fairy tale right.

check out the countries that have and how well it has worked for them.

but really, are you suggesting our gals that serve coffee are merely prostitutes?

[MattBaggins]

210. Don't go down that alley

These guys are 100% for the full sexual exploitation of women. We had a thread a week or so back with people excited about the recession in that it might bring about more prostitution.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

188. These young ladies can do what they want

If they want such a job, it's their right.....

At the same time, I've never understood the connection between food and scantily clad women. It's like Hooters. I've never had any interest in going there.

Strip clubs I understand, and have frequented. But I don't go there for the (literal) buffet. This is just creepy. Getting coffee just to ogle young women? Some people must be either seriously repressed or over-horny.

[BlooInBloo]

189. Damn I wish I lived out in hickland. That'll never happen downtown. Sigh.

[nolabels]

208. Reminds me of the ole tune ""Sugar Shack"

JIMMY GILMER AND THE FIREBALLS lyrics -
"Sugar Shack"

There's a crazy little shack beyond the tracks
And ev'rybody calls it the sugar shack
Well, it's just a coffeehouse and it's made out of wood
Expresso coffee tastes mighty good
That's not the reason why I've got to get back
To that sugar shack, whoa baby
To that sugar shack.

There's this cute little girlie, she's a'workin' there
A black leotard and her feet are bare
I'm gonna drink a lotta coffee, spend a little cash
Make that girl love me when I put on some trash
You can understand why I've got to get back
To that sugar shack, whoa baby
To that sugar shack, yeah honey
To that sugar shack, whoa yes
To that sugar shack.

Now that sugar shack queen is a'married to me, yeah yeah
We just sit around and dream of those old memories
Ah, but one of these days I'm gonna lay down tracks
In the direction of that sugar shack
Just me and her yes we're gonna go back
To that sugar shack,
Whoa uh ohT
o that sugar shack, yeah honey
To our sugar shack



Yeh, yeh, yeh, our sugar shack
(snip)
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/jimmy_gilmer_and_the_fireballs/sugar_shack.html

[Dukkha]

197. still won't motivate me to spend $3.50 for a coffee

what fucking decade are we living in? sheesh!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

212. This is extremely depressing.

I have a beautiful daughter in her early 20s. I'm glad she doesn't have to wear a bikini to get a job.

Looks like all the hellraising that women did in the 60s and 70s to be taken seriously was for naught. Men didn't get the message, I guess.

[Gwendolyn]

213. You mean like the women who painted their bodies and worked as go-go dancers...

the ones who took their clothes off at rock concerts like Woodstock and made "free love" in front of everybody? Those hell-raising women? it seems a lot of people have forgotten a lot of the past.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

284. Some women protested.

Some women wrote books, like Gloria Steinem.

Some women started magazines like Ms.

Some women started organizations like NOW.

Some women joined existing organizations like the American Association of University Women, which favors educational equality.

They were in favor of the right of "hellraising" women like you describe, to have the freedom to live as they saw fit, including all that free love if they wanted it.

And NOBODY burned a bra. That was a lie made up by a reporter, and it was repeated as if it were true.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

294. It seems a lot of women didn't get the message either.

I guess choice only applies to certain things, eh.

David

[NaturalHigh]

214. What's the big deal?

We see more skin than that in most PG-13 movies.

[1]

215. the bikini american worker has as much right to pursue their way of life as any american worker...

i denounce bikini american hatred and intolerance in all of its forms.

i thought this was a progressive board...

[paulsby]

219. apparently many of these faux progressives

think it's perfectly progressive to tell other people how to run their lives.

don't want to work in a bikini selling coffee? then don't do it.

don't want to patronize such an establishment?

then don't

but they want to say that the business owner doesn't have the right to choose this business model, and that they know better than the girls/women who choose to work in such an establishment

it's arrogant and certainly not progressive.

[noamnety]

279. You feel the same way about Iraqi refugees?

A lot of them have had to turn to prostitution to survive. So long as it's legal, is it moral for men to pimp those women out?

The way I see it, men have a responsibility to recognize their position as a class in the patriarchy, and the position of women as second class citizens. Men with any kind of integrity will not in tough economic times fall back on male supremacy and women's oppression as a business model.

When they do fall back on that, they should be subject to harsh criticism and contempt, in the same way that if they decided to turn to ... oh, I dunno, blackface and minstrel shows, people would react with contempt for their exploitation of racial oppression as their primary business strategy.

[1]

281. my god, hyperbole much? hot chicks in the bikini selling coffee = iraqi prostitutes???

and all of that other "bla, bla, bla" you posted, whatever it was...

your arguments are amazing. and so ridiculous that no thinking person would ever entertain them.

turn the outrage dial back several clicks. then turn it back a few more and try again.

no wonder no one listens to you...

[noamnety]

287. Apparently exploitation of women is a business plan

I'm asking on a scale of "you must wear makeup" to legal prostitution, at what point is exploitation not acceptable?

I don't think it's hyperbole - we've had people here arguing before that prostitution is not exploitation, it's empowering if the woman's other choice was going hungry. I'm just wondering where some people's lines are drawn.

And I am wondering why when men fall back on being the oppressor class and selling access to women's bodies, why is anyone on DU okay with that? Falling back on male supremacy and sexism shouldn't be a business plan for men whenever the economy tanks.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

293. I missed the part where patrons had access to the women's bodies.

[northernlights]

229. just another reason why I can't get hired

My bikini days ended a couple decades ago.

[Mari333]

230. they will also lose a lot of business nt

[Zywiec]

231. Did you read the OP or article?

And Tagle says people are buying more coffee drinks now than ever before. "We've seen an increase, and so that's why we did it."

[Mari333]

232. dead cat bounce. nt

[seabeyond]

234. boy, that convinces me. the man is trying to justify decision and bring in business.

like he is going to say, .... man, people are pissed and not coming in? instead the reporter says people in neighborhood pissed and owner says, but man are they coming in.

i know i am convinced..... right.

you believe everything you are told?

[Mari333]

233. naked men in thongs. watch fat old white males freak out if thats next. nt

[NaturalHigh]

297. Where could I apply for that one?

It sounds like an interesting part-time job. Would I have to get a tan first?

[countryjake]

244. With WA coffee stands the target of so many robberies...

this simply puts these girls into an even more vulnerable position. One of the very first "bikini-espresso" places down around Tacoma has already been held-up several times, and I believe that one is also where they've had the expected problem of pervs exposing themselves as their drink is handed thru the window, (for wa locals, remember the "boiling water incident").

But up here, much further North, the drive-thru coffee stands are like sitting ducks for jonesing thieves, who take advantage of pretty young girls isolated in those sheds, scaring the crap out of them, before getting away with cash drawers and tip jars. There's a serial espresso-stand robber wreaking havoc around both Snohomish co and Skagit co.

I have a feeling that it's only a matter of time before some perv who likes to frequent the bikini stands buys a clue from the robbers and tries violent assault with his latte fix. Hope that nifty entrepreneur is prepared to provide excellent security for his half-naked employees!

[Missy Vixen]

262. Security? Why would anyone need that?

After all, nothing's going to happen to a young woman in a bikini and high heels with a cash register full of money in an isolated location. :sarcasm:

>Hope that nifty entrepreneur is prepared to provide excellent security for his half-naked employees!<

I didn't see any apparent security. The entrepreneur was too busy posin' for photos with his "girls" and his pimpin' suit.

Again: Those who choose to make their living by using their sexuality have the ability to put safeguards in place for themselves. This guy has shown he's stupid as well as greedy. The least that's going to happen to one of his employees is that she'll be flashed.

If someone flashes a woman in an office setting, there's going to be consequences. If someone does it at an isolated espresso stand, it's a whole different story.

[Name removed]

261. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

264. I guess sex sells...

I guess sex sells...

I can see this as no more than exploitation-- unless of course one can tell me (with relevance) how a teenager in a bikini makes one cup of coffee taste better than another. It's simply exploitative marketing, but that's not really anything new.



And people still labor under the absurd (yet trendy) notion that America is a prudish and Victorian nation... :eyes:

[Joanne98]

275. Why don't they just hire strippers? Sex and violence SELLS!!!!!!

You know a coffee shop in Columbus Ohio increased it's business by removing it's prices and letting people pay what they think is FAIR!

Business has increased and they haven't lost any money.

But that's not the capitalist way!!!!!!!

:sarcasm:

[Lost in CT]

280. Um I think they did hire strippers... nt

[Iggo]

286. Ew.

[Bonobo]

292. NEWSFLASH: More men are EXPLOITED by being forced to be WAGE SLAVES than women. Discuss.

Sexualizing, as some put it (as if THAT is the greatest sin) is not the only way to exploit people.

What about men who have virtually no choice from the moment they are born but to become wage slaves in a cubicle somewhere?

What about army recruiters in shopping malls who exploit men's self-esteem issues to get them join up?

Too many short-sighted, self-righteous prudes around here. The world of exploitation is a whole lot bigger than bikinis and erect nipples.

Capitalism is exploitation for Chrissakes and we're all guilty up to the eyeballs.