Mafia references and being an Italian American...

[Javaman]

I maybe a little over reacting here, but frankly, since I'm of Italian decent, it bothers me a bit.

There is this bizarre popular belief that if you are Italian the you have to have this acceptance of any mention of the Mafia as being a part of your life.

When my grandparents came over from Italy, it was to escape two things, the control of the Catholic church and the control of the Mafia. Both were basically organized crime syndicates in Southern Italy.

Brooklyn during the early part of the 20th century was one of the hot beds of the Italian Mafia. My grandparents stressed to my father and to his brothers and sister, that the Mafia were thugs and an education is how one succeeds in life. (my grandfather who had less than a 3rd grade education taught himself to speak English).

My dad had several of his friends he grew up with, killed or put in prison because of their ties to the Mafia. It was really hard to escape it, but my family did and for good reason.

I take no glory what so ever in trying to appear tough or more macho by trying to relate or tie myself in even the most remotest of forms to those murderous thugs.

Why am I ranting about this?

Why is it, in this day in age, when I work with educated "professionals", is it okay, to lump anyone with an Italian name into the Mafia category?

Why is it perfectly acceptable to insult me and my heritage by making these references?

:rant:

[Taverner]

1. In my life I have only knowingly met three people in organized crime

One was Vietnamese, another was Russian and the last was WASP

[misanthrope]

25. What about politicians and insurance salesmen?**nm

**

[wtmusic]

2. Well said.

On my end, of German descent - and tired of people going into SS-speak thinking they're being funny.

:thumbsup:

[Terran]

3. Point very well taken.

Did you watch "The Sopranos" at all? This issue was addressed in interesting ways on that program.

[Javaman]

5. Don't have cable. Can you elaborate? I'm curious. nt

[Terran]

11. Sure

Tony Soprano, as you probably know, is the leader of a local mob 'family' in New Jersey. The twist in the series is that he sees a therapist for all kinds of issues he has with his family and his life. His therapist is Italian-American also; I recall one episode where we see her in her home with her also-Italian-American husband entertaining guests and talking about how organized crime is a burden on them as law-abiding Italian-Americans because it subjects them to stereotypes of the sort you're talking about. It's an issue for her because no one is supposed to know that Tony Soprano is her client, but it becomes known anyway.

There's a lot of interaction in the series between Soprano and his minions and I-A's who have little or no connection to the mob, and there's often a tension there--fear, fascination, mistrust, acceptance...a variety of positions staked out over generations. There's also some sense of the Italian mob becoming irrelevant to the modern world, as other gangs move in, and as traditional criminal methods become impossible to employ. I remember one scene where two guys try to shake down a chain coffee shop like Starbucks for 'protection' money, and the manager patiently tries to explain how tightly controlled the corporate operation is and how imposible it would be to just hand money over to them; and they just kind of give up on it.

You might find it interesting; very well-written drama, in any event; can be rented, I'm sure.

[Javaman]

15. Very interesting take. I may check it out. Thanks for the info. :) nt

[misanthrope]

30. The funniest part of the scene you describe...

..was after the shakedown failed, the "family" members walk outside the coffee shop, look around the street and one says, "What's happening to the little guy?" in his best populist tone. Hilarious.

The thing I liked best about that show was its dark, dark sense of humor.

It also addressed the Italian-American image issue in various episodes. Its Italian-American creator, David Chase, was somewhat exasperated by the uproar. In fact, the episode you describe with the therapist's husband made mention of the mob-related controversy around the Italian American Anti-Defamation League and its founder.

[MrPerson]

4. I'm a german American and I bet I make better spaghetti sauce than you.

[Javaman]

7. Once you called it sauce, you automatically lost. :) lol nt

[zagging]

6. Don't watch the Simpsons

Fat Tony made a boid drink woims troo a straw.

[rfranklin]

8. I am an American...

I feel no attachment to the European countries that my ancestors fled because of military conscription, enforced poverty and lack of political freedom. I would rather try to improve the country of which I am a citizen than worry about some abstract connection to other countries.

[Javaman]

9. This would be true for myself, If I didn't have family still living in Italy.

but I get your point completely.

[FightingIrish]

10. When I was young, all we saw were negative Italian stereotypes

In 1960, my town paired up with an Italian Sister City. Because of those stereotypes, many were skeptical. Next year we will celebrate fifty years of the the most remarkable union. Through our sister city, we have really gotten to know our Italian friends and their rich culture and they have gotten to know a different America. I had the privilege of living in Italy for a year and have made frequent trips to visit our friends who are now more like relatives than friends. This whole experience has taught me that stereotypes have to be overcome on a personal level.

[YOY]

12. Yeah...I can't think of too many films about Italians that aren't about or include the mob.

Rather pisses me off as an Italian as well.

Then again I've jokingly made the reference that this is an Italian Sambo.



From my wife's Bulgarian vantage she thought this was insulting from back in the day: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=46008440

Really funny because most Bulgarian women look like this:

Seriously...the place is like the home of the original hot Brunette.

[Javaman]

16. There is only one movie that I can think of that shows Italians in a positive light...

Other than the movies from the Italian new wave era, that would be Big Night. It's about two brothers who own a restaurant in NY during the 1950's and they prepare a special mean for Louie Prima.

[YOY]

34. Well I can think of a couple...

"Lady in White" is about a little Italian American kid who sees a ghost. Creepy flick...PG but creepy. One of my favs because the fact the kid was from an very Italian wasn't cheesily overdone. He just was. No steriotypes...see it if you never have.
I thought "Moonstruck" was but I barely remember or want to remember it.
"I Love You To Death" was about a bunch of non-Italians acting like Italian steriotypes...shame because I like Tracy Ulman and Kevin Cline...no mob thought...althought it has hitment (played by River Pheonix and Dude)
The movie "Kiss Me Guido" is about an Italian gay guy who has trouble explaining (humorously) who he is to his Ultra-Italian family. Didn't seem so problematic for my cousin...

Also I have from very good sources that Lando Calrissian might very well be Italian...or on a distinct minor chance might be black.

[YOY]

13. Yeah...I can't think of too many films about Italians that aren't about or include the mob.

Rather pisses me off as an Italian as well.

Then again I've jokingly made the reference that this is an Italian Sambo.



From my wife's Bulgarian vantage she thought this was insulting from back in the day: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=46008440

Really funny because most Bulgarian women look like this:

Seriously...the place is like the home of the original hot Brunette.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

14. 100% agree with the OP... I'm Italian, not Italian-American

I'm an Italian citizen originally from northern Italy. I have a very fair complexion, light hair. People are so conditioned to thinking of Italians as one homogeneous block of mobsters, dark haired, mustachioed (both men AND women) and Catholic busybodies talking in what is thought to be Italian here in the U.S. but it's actually Sicilian or Neapolitan dialect.

So when people find out I'm Italian, most can't believe it. Most can't believe I need subtitles for the Godfather when the characters speak in "Italian" (actually, Sicilian dialect).

And don't get me started about what passes for Italian cuisine here in the States!

[Javaman]

17. I'm light complextioned as well,

but oddly my family come from southern Italy, go figure.

And yes, you are so right about what passed for "Italian" food here. LOL :)

Cheers.

[Kat45]

23. Interesting. I have very fair skin, and I'm half Sicilian, half Southern Italian

I agree with your comments in this thread, but at least things aren't as bad as they used to be. The major Italians and Irish immigration was around a century ago and most are pretty Americanized by now. My mother was very sensitive to prejudice against Italians because she'd seen a lot of it. (She thought the reason Scorsese wasn't winning an Oscar was because he was Italian.)

The Italian mob seems to pale in comparison to some of the other criminal gangs around today, yet there is still some sort of fascination with it. I must admit that I enjoy mob movies, and I think part of the reason is because those are the only films that depict any aspects of Italian culture (the big weddings, the meals, etc.).

But yeah, some people do still equate Italians and the mob. My boyfriend, a Mayflower descendant, told me that his father always said that all Italians are "connected." My answer was, if I'm connected then why am I poor? LOL

[nonconformist]

18. I'm half Sicilian

So I totally see your point. When people hear that I'm not only Italian, but *gasp* Sicilian, there is always a mafia reference made.

I've gotten used to it in my life, so it doesn't bother me too much anymore. And I do very much enjoy mafia movies/tv shows. Italian slurs like guinea, WOP, and dago are much more likely to offend me... and while those slurs haven't been directed at me for years, they were several times growing up.

Interestingly, one thing that does annoy me is that when people learn that I'm half Sicilian and part Irish, they almost always say, "wow, I bet you have a temper". WTF? Now, maybe I kind of have a temper (ha!), but I doubt that has anything to do with my heritage.

[madmom]

31. I am Italian-American and people are confused because I am not catholic and

really confused when they learn I am atheist. My maiden name is very Italian and in a some what small town, even after I married people still remember it. My b-i-l thinks it's funny to ask me "hey, how's your dago?"every time he sees me. He is supposed to be very religious, but I guess this kind of bigotry is beyond him.:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

19. It seems to me you're perpetuating the stereotype with this OM.

After all, even in extrication from and opposition to the Mafia you're indicating your family has had far greater contact than, say, my Norwegian immigrant grandparents. I don't think anyone in my Norwegian-American family even knew someone who knew someone in the Mafia. (Maybe it was the lutefisk.)

:shrug:

[Javaman]

27. Well then how do you feel about this?

so since your ancestors were vikings are you a blood thirster rampager of other nations? Do not observe basic table manners? Do you consider yourself a barbarian?

See, that's how it feels, not nice is it?

I could have said a lot worse. But I didn't because I know how it feels.

[TahitiNut]

28. Nobody can make me feel bad (or good) without my permission.

Since my father was Scot-Irish, I've often observed that my ancestry is 100% Norseman ('Viking' would be a misnomer) ... being descended from the raping and pillaging around the North Sea.

But that's not the same as knowing anyone personally or having anyone directly associated with family. :shrug: That said, how would such a fact have any relevance to your own character personally?

[Javaman]

33. You don't get it.

good for you.

[SoCalDem]

20. It's not a "day and age" issue.. The USA has ALWAYS been that way

It's only fairly recently that attention has been paid to the activity...and in a public way..

Every "group" has been "assigned" its own "shorthand moniker" and traits..



Who "assigns" these appellations? the media picks up on the common/contemporaneous acceptance of the names/stereotypes/straw-man-arguments, and then runs with it/magnifies it...until the next one comes along..

[NoGOPZone]

21. I'm not Italian American, but I feel your concerns are valid

I have only an outsiders perspective, but I feel the main reason it remains acceptable is that as as group, Italian Americans have never show outrage at their portrayal. Futhermore, I feel many Italian Americans seem to believe that showing such outrage might be counter productive considering how hard they've worked to be accepted as mainstream.

However, there are persons and organizations working hard to compel an accurate portrayal. This gentleman has done considerable work.

http://www.iaonevoicecoalition.org/

[anigbrowl]

22. (shrug) it's like Irish people being stereotyped as heavy drinkers...

and/or leprechauns. Or the other stereotypes such as 'latin lovers' or 'gloomy Russians'. you'll get over it.

[Liberal_in_LA]

26. leprechauns...lol.

[Liberal_in_LA]

24. all that Sopranos/Godfather stuff set Italians back 100 years! Some Italians

objected to the images in those movies/shows but they were ignored. I'm not Italian but I thought the mafia image is
racist.

[YOY]

35. We're white, How could it be racist?

Bigoted, yes. Prejudicial, maybe. Ethnocentric, certainly....

But the last time I checked a box indicating race I didn't see a seperate caucasian box for "dagos".

[Stinky The Clown]

29. I dislike when people who are too ignorant to recall my name call me Tony

[quickesst]

32. Well.....

"When my grandparents came over from Italy, it was to escape two things, the control of the Catholic church and the control of the Mafia. Both were basically organized crime syndicates in Southern Italy."

Just because your sentence refers to "Southern" Italy, hell that's a point against you from the get-go on this board. Fucking hillbillies!
:sarcasm: Thanks.
quickesst