had a talk with a fundie coal miner today and it made me think

[backwoodsbob]

we were discussing of all things a windfarm being proposed here in Tazewell county in the middle of gawd guns and coal country and he said something that made me think all afternoon at work.

He asked what all the families that know nothing but coal mining down here will do if we stop coal usage or extremely limit it.He asked why we can give trillions to banks and stuff but we cant set up any systems to retrain these coalminers.

He's right.

Those who don't live around here have no idea how important coal is to sw Virginia.If we stopped mining coal literally entire counties would be wiped out.Not 10% unemployment or 20%...once it's all said and done some of these counties could see 50% or more unemployment once secondary industries and retail/restaurant employment is figured in.

How can we get some retraining around here so we can get people to accept a non coal economy?.We are talking about tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of people?

Can we get some incentive to get new green tech here or anything?

any ideas?

We need to get off coal but in my opinion as a society we have an obligation to not gut these areas and abandon its people in the process

[ddeclue]

1. Eco-restoration, eco-tourism...

Alternate energy production...

1) Eco-restoration - there are probably decades of work in restoring the damage done by centuries of coal mining in this region. This has happened in BRAC( Base Re-alignment and Closure) as cold war military bases were closed and the facilities needed to be made safe and the environmental damage undone.

2) Eco-tourism - the Appalachian mountains is some beautiful country and a prime destination for vacation in the spring and fall if they do it right - Gatlinberg TN is very popular.

3) Alternate energy - a lot of this land especially where they've already flattened out entire mountains could be converted to solar energy or wind energy farms.

Just mt $0.02 worth...

[ogneopasno]

3. A $30/hour coal miner isn't going to want to work in a $7/hour tourism job.

They keep trying to sell that here in MN, and it ain't going to fly.

[ddeclue]

22. Still beats being unemployed or working in Walmart!

:P

[backwoodsbob]

35. thats what you dont get

there wont BE a walmart here if we shut down coal without retraining.NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO SHOP!

You dont get it..literally EVERYONE will be out of a job here.....get this through your head.

Shut down the coal mines...the people who make the supplies are also out of work...they CAN'T ,GO,
TO,WALMART because ,they,are,broke.

Now because no one is working the restaurants and mom and pops go down...it's a cascade effect..EVERYONE here will be out of work.

[ddeclue]

45. Well then if you don't like my idea :MOVE to a place with jobs.

There is no reason to keep mining coal forever and ever just so people will have jobs - there are always other ways to be productive in society than doing any one thing.

I've offered several good ideas that have actually been used and worked in the past but all you want to do is make excuses why they won't work and why we have to keep on mining coal.

It's the buggy whip maker's complaint that you are making and there are plenty of alternate ways this land could be used and alternate ways people could make a living on it. If they can't then they need to do what the rest of us do and move to somewhere where there are jobs and stop waiting for someone to bring the jobs to them.

[backwoodsbob]

50. you havent offered shit for jobs

But thats ok.

What we need is help steering new industries here.Why is that such a problem for you?

[ddeclue]

64. It's NOT.. people who ask for ideas and then whine about them are a problem for me..

If you have better ideas then let's hear them and stop complaining about mine which are perfect good ideas and better than being unemployed..

:eyes:

[backwoodsbob]

57. ddeclue

you willing to host my family until we can support ourselves?

Since you think moving is so easy I figured you could put us up...find me a job...and the wife...you know help a brother out

[Jester Messiah]

111. That's no solution

That "place with jobs" already has people doing those jobs. If you dump a few extra thousand people on that place, that place won't have the infrastructure to absorb all of them. They'll just be hanging out jobless, an echo of "The Grapes of Wrath." A solution to the problem of getting us off coal that doesn't address the people dependent on coal jobs -is no solution.-

[Deja Q]

116. Nice try. One can have all the education, but if employers say "We want x years of experience"...

or impose a quiet little age limit, the worker is still screwed. And both scenarios happen far too often. You can't get experience without being an apprentice in a comparably sized organization; volunteering for a tin pot church or blood donation center isn't even remotely the same thing.

[dionysus]

118. as dumb as your post about Obama's imaginary cigs.

:rofl:

[reggie the dog]

105. I don't know where you are

but when I got busted for cannabis in Craig county, the guy at the jail told me it was not too bad and did not understand why the cop busted me because they were both paid off by growers as cannabis growing and making moonshine were the only sources of income. My guess would be that if the coal mines shut you would see lots of stills and weed patches pop up.

[X_Digger]

106. Lots of pot farms..

When I was a kid in Grundy, Va, we'd see DEA helicopters a couple of times every summer.

[reggie the dog]

121. well the farms are already there

people will be really fucked if the mines close.......what to do. Kill the economy of the entire region, or kill the plantet with coal?

[cabluedem]

44. Wow, just wow you dont get it do you? nt

[ddeclue]

46. Ummm YES I do... right now I'm going on 3 months unemployed

but I don't sit down and whine and say you've got to give me my old job back.

He ASKED for ideas, I gave him several GOOD ones. If he doesn't like it not my fault.

Everyone else in this country relocates to where the jobs are instead of expecting a miracle to bring the job to them.

[backwoodsbob]

52. they werent GOOD jobs

saying the entire sw should become a tourist attraction isnt a solution.

Why dont you get that?

[ddeclue]

67. Oh brother... you didn't read what I wrote and are focusing on tourism as

the only suggestion I provided - go back and re-read and stop whining to me because they were all perfectly good suggestions and taken together would provide substantial employment and time to transition to something else.

You are just whining because you want coal mining to go on forever and making excuses for why my ideas won't work.

:eyes:

[ogneopasno]

49. Actually, it doesn't and you're either being willfully ignorant or casually flippant about something

you don't understand. I know scores of people who would rather do nothing than work a job that leaves them empty inside. And not in some privileged, I'm-too-good-to-do-that way, either. They like working with their hands, or they like working outside, or they're happy to put in their 8 and be done in exchange for a wage that gets them to the cabin on the weekend or on the water for vacation. When people like you come into town and try to spout new ways of doing things for a third the pay...it's not the best way to get things done.

[ddeclue]

68. Well FINE MOVE like the rest of us then and find a job that makes you happy

and stop complaining about the alternatives - you certainly haven't suggested crap yet - all you've done is complain about MY suggestions.

:eyes:

[dionysus]

119. maybe because... your suggestions are shite?

:shrug:

[cabluedem]

73. Amen to that! nt

[HughMoran]

96. being a jerk again I see

You used to be an interesting poster - did you give your account to your angry brother or something?

[Deja Q]

115. Mostly because, unlike in other countries, $7/hr get won't you squat in America.

[roguevalley]

120. they will have to retool just like Oregon with timber and any other

place where resources are being lost or phased out. Fishing in Alaska. Crabbing in seward has been over for ages.

[backwoodsbob]

6. have you ever been to Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge?

I would rather die than turn my home town into that.

[ddeclue]

21. Many times.. hey I'm just offering some choices..

I used to live in Eastern TN.

[backwoodsbob]

30. so what happens when

Bluefield opens a pigeon forge...and Abindon...and Johnson city...and Princeton WV...and Rocky Gap..and Grundy...and on and on.

Do you realy think you can keep EVERYONE here in jobs this way?

[ddeclue]

34. Probably NOT but you really can't expect life to never change...

I've probably moved a dozen times in my career and I'm 42 years old.

Some people are going to have to move and find new jobs outside of Appalachia like the rest of us already do. Someone asked for some ideas and these ideas are STILL better than working at Walmart or being on unemployment.

[backwoodsbob]

36. so your solution is to move EVERYONE in SW ,Virginia ...SOMEWHERE?

glad ,you're not in charge

[ddeclue]

42. No people need to move THEMSELVES and find new jobs

somewhere else... I'm not going to tell them where to move or when...

It's happened throughout our history- people move to the jobs and the money.

Initially it was west west west..

At the turn of the century it was from the South to the North and factory jobs.

Florida has had multiple booms and busts with people moving in and out.

So has California.

After WWII people moved out into the suburbs.

In the last 30 years people have moved from the Northeast to the Southeast and Far West.

In the last few years Californians have moved to other western states like Colorado, Arizona and Nevada for lower costs and better living.

The only constant in life is change.

Doug D.

[backwoodsbob]

55. I hope your little disney world paradise fails there

then you will know what I am saying

the ENTIRE COUNTRY CANT LIVE ON TOURISM!!!

[ddeclue]

66. You apparently can't read or you would know that I don't think

tourism is a great economy but it is better than no economy.

:eyes:

[Kalyke]

86. Amen.

I was a reporter in Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge for eight years. Traffic's horrible, the pay rate is in the gutter, home prices are ginormous because rich people move in and jack up the rates.

I live in Knoxville, which is a hop, skip and a jump from Gatlinburg, and we're still fighting with the low pay as a result of all the tourism.

[leftyclimber]

15. Ecotourism is not a sound option.

Going from full-time jobs with benefits to seasonal jobs at or near minimum wage acting as servants to out-of-towners and people with vacation homes is a really good way to destroy communities.

And as bwb has pointed out, a lot of people would rather die than have another Gatlinburg spring up where they live. They want to live where they live, not turn their town into an amusement park for people who don't care about them. FWIW, Gatlinburg is not an example of ecotourism (small footprint, low impact on resources); it's an example of mass tourism. That kind of tourism causes huge difficulties with infrastructure for the local residents, drives property taxes up as vacation housing goes in, drives prices up for basic necessities, and often leads to displacement of the original residents of the area because they can no longer afford to live there.

Ultimately, the biggest problem with natural resource-based tourism is that places go out of style. For a while, a certain area is attractive due to its novelty and out-of-the-way appeal. Word gets out, more and more people come, eventually one of two things happens: the place gets "loved to death" by its visitors and loses its appeal that way, or some new trendy out-of-the-way place becomes the latest travel fad. Either way, because of the cyclical nature of the industry it tends to have serious booms and busts.

[ddeclue]

24. The alternative is to dry up and blow away entirely...

and do you think that New York City hasn't already done the same thing years ago?

It is hardly the commercial shipping port or manufacturing mecca it once was.

While NYC still isn't totally a tourist trap, it certainly has added a lot of tourism to make up for the losses.

You guys were stumped and asked for ideas- these are valid ideas even if you don't like them they will pay the bills.

Doug D.

[leftyclimber]

28. I thought your other ideas were good. Just not ecotourism.

And I say that as someone getting a doctorate in natural resources social science, meaning I have to be knowledgeable about ecotourism and its impacts on communities. With few exceptions, it tends to be a temporary and low-paying industry that dries up and blows away pretty quickly.

See my comments downthread about things to consider when retraining workers. IIRC Washington State had a program like this in the late '80s/early '90s, where people were retrained according to interests and aptitudes. It had a very high success rate.

[XemaSab]

41. Even if tourism doesn't dry up and blow away

I've lived in a town where the ONLY jobs are working in a restaurant, hotel, or store.

It's not a happening scene. :(

[ddeclue]

43. Dude you don't have to tell ME that, I live in Orlando FL

:rofl:

There are some high tech jobs in this town but I really want to see them triple or quadruple and see us cut back on our addiction to the Mouse.

Doug D.

[XemaSab]

54. Isn't the Mouse canning people?

:shrug:

[ddeclue]

69. I haven't read specifically that they are but it wouldn't surprise me.

[backwoodsbob]

61. you want to see them can the mouse

but your solution here is tourism?

[ddeclue]

70. NO - READ DAMMIT - It was ONE of THREE options offered.

You are being intentionally obtuse. Go back and RE READ since you didn't apparently get it the first time.

Did you NOT read the OTHER TWO options? - Alternative energy and environmental restoration?

Tourism is just one of THREE but you are busy attacking tourism because the REAL truth is that you are just complaining here because you don't want to see coal mining stopped even when given other viable alternatives.

Stop being a privileged whiner and join the real economy with the rest of us.

I'm 42, I don't own my own house, I've lived in Atlanta, Eastern TN, Huntsville AL, Detroit, South Korea, Phoenix AZ, Fort Lauderdale FL, Melbourne FL, Fort Lauderdale again, and the last 5 years in Orlando FL - and that's with an engineering degree not a high school diploma. Life isn't easy and change is the only constant. I'm afraid you're gonna have to figure that out and figure out that you are going to have to move to where the jobs are if you can't find a way to bring the jobs to you. I'm afraid you're gonna have to ALSO understand that coal mining is destroying the environment of this planet and it's gonna have to stop.

:eyes:

[XemaSab]

39. Having lived near Yosemite

Tourist-based economies suck. x(

[ddeclue]

47. I live in Orlando FL and yes they do but they are better than no economy at all.

:eyes:

[ogneopasno]

51. That's right, ddeclue, aim low, aim low! Might as well move to China, where the jobs are, and where

people get paid fuck-all!

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ogneopasno]

74. And then you said "better a shitty job/economy than none at all." I was just taking it to the

logical conclusion, is all.

[Fresh_Start]

2. Retraining should be standard policy

for displaced workers. Not just coal but other industries as well.

[gratuitous]

4. Now would be a very good time to start doing something

Coal mining isn't going to stop tomorrow or the day after that. But it could very well stop some time soon, soon enough that the younger miners now working could see the end of their livelihood. It seems to me that with this kind of early warning in place, now would be a very good time to begin preparing to do something else. Build a trade school and teach the young uns how to do something besides mining coal. Insist that the coal companies and miners’ unions begin working together to prepare for that day when coal is no longer king of southwest Virginia.

I don’t live in the area, so I don’t know, but I’ll bet there are people in the area with a sufficient grasp of the area’s people and resources that they could come up with some good ideas of what might be the next industry for the area. If you need to put it in terms that folks might better identify with, you’re looking at the seven fat years of Joseph’s dream in Genesis. Putting aside something for those seven lean years (years that were so lean, they devoured even the memory of the preceding fat years) now will benefit the region and the people for years to come.

[MountainLaurel]

5. Some programs do exist

For retraining miners who have lost their jobs. (I've had a variety of family members go through such programs, though not in green tech.) Unfortunately, there are a few problems often seen. A lot of these new jobs require technology and other skills that a 55-year-old who has been underground since he was 16 probably doesn't have. They might have known how to use the specific computerized machinery for their jobs, but few have used a computer at home or at work on a daily basis. A secondary problem is getting the jobs to the people. You can train folks as much as you want, but if there's nowhere for them to work, they're still SOL. How many green technology companies are going to want to relocate to areas with dysfunctional public education systems and poor transportation, and where high-speed Internet isn't available?

[leftyclimber]

7. I watched retraining go VERY wrong in the Pacific Northwest.

A bunch of people who have worked outdoors all their lives and made pretty good money doing it were not happy to be stuck working in a cubicle for about half of what they were making before. All but two of the guys I knew from the program (logging to technical support) dropped out. They just couldn't stand to be inside sitting still all day.

I agree that retraining is critical. Appropriate retraining is even more critical. Inherent to that is matching skillsets, interests, and aptitudes to the types of training offered, rather than trying to stuff a bunch of people into the next hot job. And pay needs to be equivalent to previous employment.

[madmom]

8. I guess the same way auto factory workers will have to retrain, learn a new skill,

go to work some where else. That's what they were told when they asked pretty much the same thing when they wanted to know what would happen to all the people who would be put out of a job. No snark intended.

[cabluedem]

48. What jobs are hiring retrained workers (or anyone) in great numbers? nt

[madmom]

85. UMM, that's kind of the point. Auto workers have been saying this all along, not to

mention, who's going to hire any one over say 45/50 years old.When ever some one says let GM or Chrysler go under, these are exactly the same question their workers asked and no body seemed to care or understand, I don't know which. No difference IMO.

[SammyWinstonJack]

91. Thanks for saying what I was thinking and I didn't have the words.

:thumbsup:

[Rider Haggard]

9. Tazewell... that's just a stone's throw from Grundy isn't it?

I spent a month up there in the 70's as a long haired hippie type bluegrass player working for Burns Security as a paid witness for telephone relay stations up there during some telephone strikes. I stayed in the Grundy hotel in which I could open the window and touch the mountain in which a notch had been cut to put the hotel.

That is some of the most beautiful country I have ever seen. I also remember thinking that i was a different country altogether than the one I was used to. I worked 8PM to 8AM and once the sheriff found out I played bluegrass he figured I was okay and dropped a 38 on my makeshift desk in the relay station.

"If'n anybody comes in and starts something you go ahead and do what you gotta do then call the station and have 'em call me so I can come down here and say I did it." I politely declined.

I heard so many wonderful stories from so many wonderful people up there that it is one of the fondest memories of my life. There was a small (4) group of us that took a job with Burns that Summer and we loved the area so much that after the job, we drove the areas between there and Bluefiels and points in TN stopping at busy parking lots to play and sing then passed the hat around.

This is also the area in which I was introduced to gopher stew made with Campbell's Soup and, well, you know.



Back to your OP, I understand your concern as many of these people only know the coal mines and nothing else. In the 70's there were many that never bothered with school in favor of going straight to the mines to help support their families. This is certainly a problem in this part of our country that would need to be addressed.

[backwoodsbob]

14. VERY close to Grundy

Matter of fact when I moved back down here I had an option of two job offers and one was in Grundy.

And YES it is beautiful country :hug:

[Rider Haggard]

20. Nice.

I remember we made a visit to nearby Abingdon and the Barter Theater where I got to see the light board which at the time was said to have been made by Thomas Edison. Quite a treat.

[backwoodsbob]

23. the Barter is awesome

I LOVE the barter

[backwoodsbob]

18. when you say Bluefiels do you mean Bluefield?

Bluefield is where I live,one of the most beautiful wilderness areas ever seen

THIS is a fairly common thing rolling over the East River mountain into Bluefield

[Rider Haggard]

27. Thanks, yes I meant Bluefield.

That darned S is too close to the D. :)

[dgibby]

89. Beautiful!

How many people can stand on a mountain top and look down on clouds? Talk about God's Country!

PS: Love your sig. line!

[CBR]

94. My hometown...

Everyone in my family has that picture framed and hanging on the wall!

[TornadoTN]

53. I'm right across the border in NE Tennessee

I know many people in that area, Grundy especially. A very serious college girlfriend of mine hailed from that small town and I always loved going up there to visit family and friends.

[X_Digger]

98. Considering how tiny Grundy is..

Amazing how many folks from there / know folks from there show up on DU.

I grew up in Grundy, left at 20, never been back. (Immediate family moved to Emory, Va, still have extended family there.)

[shireen]

10. how does one start a retraining program in a free market?

What? We need the government to do it?

[backwoodsbob]

26. why are you being snarky?

:wtf:

[shireen]

76. i forgot to use the "sarcasm" icon

The Republican mantra of small government is bullshit. We need government to make retraining work because the business community certainly isn't going to invest in it. I did not intend to be snarky, just sarcastic. Sorry if i offended you. But i thought maybe you would have got my intent since I have a Bernie Sanders photo as my avatar.

There is no such thing as a free market. The last 8 years of Bush Jr have proved it. The Reagan and Bush Sr years should have taught people that lesson too. I wonder if people will finally get it this time ....

[billyoc]

11. Coal isn't going ANYWHERE, as long as people still make money mining it and burning it.

Coal will be the LAST thing to go here in the Saudi Arabia of coal. Bank on it.

[vanbean]

12. I would be easy to teach them to mine uranium, but they don't have any.

[backwoodsbob]

32. actually

Virginia has one of the largest unmined uranium deposits in the world.

Just a FYI

We have a ban on uranium mining

[Truth2Tell]

13. How much money did the coal miner you spoke with give

to Harry Reid last election cycle?

The banks gave him a lot.

Go figure.

[backwoodsbob]

17. so since most of them vote repuke we say fuck off and die?

wow..very progressive

[Truth2Tell]

19. I thought my sarcasm was clear.

guess I gotta use this

:sarcasm:

[mitchum]

25. Well, since he's a fundy, maybe he should ask his invisible friend to help him out

[Warpy]

16. That was sort of what Lyndon Johnson was getting at

in his War on Poverty. He actually did relieve some of the extreme poverty in Appalachia. Retraining was part of it, as well as encouraging industry to move there to take advantage of the large and relatively inexpensive labor pool. It's also what Byrd was doing all those years when he was derided as the King of Pork: moving government facilities to West Virginia so that miners thrown out of work by the shift to gas and oil for home heating would have something else to do.

I sincerely hope Obama will understand this when he's setting up his own programs. We need to get this country off coal. Much of the manufacturing for renewable energy harvesting should be located in coal country.

Coal country already saw one bust from the mid 50s to the mid 60s. They don't need to see another one. Uprooting people from country their families have lived in for hundreds of years to find other work shouldn't be the solution.

[X_Digger]

99. Even economic development is hard..

..when there's no flat land to build on.

Satellite view of Grundy, Va.

All the flat land is flood plain that gets flooded once a generation or what's been carved out of a mountainside. The Land Reclamation Act of 1974 requires that coal companies rebuild the contours of the mountains when a mine is tapped out. I'm ambivalent about that- I know the premium that flat land up out of the flood plain represents to these folks.

[acmavm]

29. That's always been one of the big questions to phasing out coal, what

will the miners do?

I wish I knew. They deserve better than black lung and a life underground. I cannot imagine what that must be like.

[TornadoTN]

56. It's not just the miners - there are literally millions of jobs in related industry

There are many businesses that rely on coal for their survival. They make the equipment that the miners use to do their jobs and to keep them safe.

We aren't just talking about miners here folks, we are talking about a very wide swath of jobs that could very well rival the auto industry just in the sheer number of people that it supports.

I support the development of CCS technology that is still in its infancy. There are other methods that are still in development for converting Carbon into other materials and utilizing them in plastics. We gradually draw down our dependency on coal and convert a lot of the businesses that support it into companies that support green industry.

Simply put, there isn't an overnight fix to this that is easy. But we can make it work in our favor if we temper our expectations for the short term and get behind a mid-to-long term approach.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Ah the good ol' we need to retrain people and you are right

a thirty dollar an hour coal miner can and should become a 30 dollar an hour solar panel employee

That said, this is not the first time this happens in this country and we have had these massive transformations of the economy before

THis is the first time people are talking about retraining

But you are right, it will have to be

And some of the solution, eco tourism will have to develop as well

And new industries

There is no way these folks can just do coal mining, though in the midst of it may look desperate

[G_j]

38. without retraining, "recovery" is an empty concept..

of course, that amount of hands-on government involvement could be seen as Socialism. :scared:

Then we could always see if Halliburton wants the job.
:shrug:

[geek_sabre]

33. This is a problem when

city folk try to make policies that affect country folk. I'm all for cutting down on carbon emissions, but I grew up in coal country.

If we intend to be energy independent as a nation (which I think is essential), we need coal. Water, biofuels, solar, wind, isn't enough to sustain our society anytime soon. We certainly need to find more environmentally friendly ways to utilize it, but putting hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work isn't going to solve anything. Civil war, anyone?

[backwoodsbob]

37. no ,one here is talking civil war sorry

people here are more worried about starving

[virginia mountainman]

40. Another thing we must realize...

We Democrats, start restricting coal use, or making it very hard to do, WILL, put miners out of work, and historically, when restrictions are passed on mining, Solid blue miners tend to turn into Red, angry Republicans...

Look what happened to West Virginia, with the Clinton era mining restrictions, and pushes for gun control almost overnight turned WVA from a solid blue state, to practically a solid red one...

I too live in SW Virginia, I can assure you that this, traditionally very blue area (until recent) reacts very VERY poorly to talk of "putting coal out of business" or Holder's comments on gun control...

Just as we start winning this group back, some of us, that have access to the soap box IMMEDIATELY start undoing our good work.

Just think of it this way, had Clinton not pissed off huge numbers of coal miners Gore would have won the election, and Bushco would have never happened.....

[TornadoTN]

58. Well said. We need a long-term strategy to this issue

There are too many that expect that we end our dependency on coal overnight without any concept of the consequences. Some are here in this thread.

We need a long-term, structured approach that gradually draws down our dependency while utilizing technology to keep coal viable in some degree. There are a lot of other uses for coal aside from power generation and metallurgical uses. Coal gasification and other related uses have shown a lot of promise and firms have been working diligently to make it economically and environmentally viable. It's just that we don't have these techs today to implement that causes so much animosity.

If we draw down our dependency on coal, we can transition many of the jobs to support green technology. Manufacturing plants that now make machines and services for the coal industry can be shifted into the appropriate green energy area.

[Ron Green]

72. The first Earth Day was almost 40 YEARS AGO.

And I, as a stupid twenty-something, knew from that time that fossil fuel was a dying bet. Haven't all the smart people in charge had enough time to put together some sort of "long-term strategy?"

[TornadoTN]

75. Yes they have, but sadly, they squandered it

Now is as good as time as any to set a plan in motion and work with all parties involved to find an amicable solution.

We can't wait.

[backwoodsbob]

60. THANK YOU

you understand.

but it's not just about voting.

Some here said just move.Where does a 40 year old lifelong miner go and what does he do?

Instead of collecting welfare here he collects welfare somewhere else?

[HughMoran]

97. Wow, good points

How soon we forget...

[MillieJo]

59. Yeap... Parts of the UK haven't recovered from the loss of the coal industry...

Go to parts of North Yorkshire, Wales and the Scotland and they are still very bitter because the fought so hard...

[ThomWV]

62. It isn't much of an argument to tell the truth.

What those same men (and women) will do is learn the jobs of installing and maintaining the new energy liberation forms, wind mills, solar, whatever it is. As for the miners and the mines themselves - we and they will both be better off when the mines are gone. For one thing considering the loss of jobs in the mining industry in just the last quarter century most of the damage is done. Over half of the coal mining jobs that existed at the height of the UMW's heydays are gone - simply up and vanished. Much of that is due to changes of mining technique. Enter strip mining and more importantly the mountain top removal sort of stuff they do down your way (up here in northern West Virginia they actually have to reclaim the land) greatly reduced the number of miners needed. So sort of instantly half of the workforce disappeared leaving us with what we have now. It won't be the end of the world if they quit draining the life out of these mountains, and besides that the gas drilling will go on as long and you and I and our children's children live in these hills. Its about 200 miles from your place to mine, and there is not one inch of that distance in which you could not drill a well and hit natural gas.

Thom - in Preston county, West Virginia (East of Morgantown)

[TornadoTN]

79. There are also a great many workers in related industries

We can transition them to the "green" jobs of tomorrow, but it has to be sustainable. Another issue is that we can't just magically turn off the coal powered plants tomorrow and expect there to be energy coming through the lines. We have built around it so much that we are behind the curve with our tech.

Honestly, there is no easy answer. A long term approach to phasing it out and transitioning to other technological uses for coal that are environmentally acceptable is about the best solution I can find. If there is money to be made in other uses for coal, the coal companies and others will shift to it. We just have to make it attractive to a group of entrepreneurs that are willing to take a bold risk and go for it. It's how we made it this far as a nation and we need to do it again.

[Spike89]

63. Retraining won't /can't work

I watched the timber industry implode here in Oregon in the 80s and the idea of retraining is a joke and a failure. The obvious problem is that when an area-wide dominant industry dies, what jobs do you train the unemployed for? In other words, retraining only works if you have a new industry to plug into place. Training a guy to be an astronaut isn't going to help him if there isn't a space program in his town.

The answer is to develop (attract) some new industries THEN train your locals. The problem there is that companies play communities off each other until the tax breaks are so significant that it actually harms the tax base. Then, the company moves in a few years...exactly what happened here with semiconductors, CD/DVD production, and a host of smaller industries.

The sad news is that it takes time (years to decades) to really shift a regional economy without some type of boom. I'm hoping that green industries are the boom, the problem of course is getting those companies to the appropriate areas and keeping them there. Sorry, but there really aren't good, easy answers when a resource-based industry craps out.

[Tesha]

65. Ya' know, when the South was stealing thousands and thousands of good New England...

textile mill jobs, nobody much worried about what the poor New
Englanders would do next. So if "what goes around comes around"
has now come around to burn some Republican-voting God-mongering
folks, you won't find me getting all teary-eyed about it.

Let his god save him.

Tesha

[TornadoTN]

77. So I guess the rest of us are collateral damage?

We are better than this.

This "fuck 'em" attitude is disgusting. That is one of the reasons why we have such a hard time making inroads in the south.

[Tesha]

81. You be better; I'd rather New England secede from these "United States" that have so abused us...

and continue to abuse us.

Tesha

[lildreamer316]

83. ,,,wow. Compassion much?

This kind of thinking is what got us to this point in the first place.

[Donnachaidh]

90. it was up to those New Englanders to press THEIR representatives

for new industries to move into New England -- did they?

So, instead of going after the REAL criminals who screwed their own constituents, you blame the people the businesses hired after they moved. That's nice.

You DO realize that if re-training isn't done on a MASSIVE scale all around the country the working class is effectively screwed, don't you? Then it won't MATTER what sweatshirt you're wearing - the uber-wealthy will have a complete win, and anyone left working will be 7 dollar an hour serfs, chained to two or three jobs serving the spoiled children of the upper 1% hamburgers at drive through windows. And those spoiled brats will be driving through the scenic states to their parent's summer homes.

Bought for a song because the working class in this country buys into the *My region is more important than Yours* pissing contest.

STOP this crap -- we need to start backing each other's play. Or we're all effectively SCREWED.

[virginia mountainman]

100. Yea, Gore, and Kerry BOTH SAID...that they did not need the south to win..

So "Fuck'em"

[Naturyl]

78. Same idea I have for all these situations.

This is where we need a guaranteed minimum income to help these people transition successfully to whatever they want to do after the coal industry dries up. Having the basic necessities of life assured to every citizen will provide a genuine opportunity to take advantage of retraining programs and the like. It gives people the time and freedom they need to make effective transitions.

We need to stop focusing on band-aid solutions and half-measures and finally ensure that no one is denied access to basic necessities regardless of circumstance.

[Shireling]

80. We need to begin

by ENDING Mountaintop Removal coal mining. Blowing up 300 million year-old mountains, because it is quick and easy, is destroying old growth, semi-rain forests, which have a rich biodiversity of plant and insect life. It has buried some 1000+ mountain streams, and polluted other streams. And, it has caused the loss of many mining jobs that were available through traditional coal mining.

Yes, we need to go green, but lets start by not blowing up the Appalachian Mountains.

See www.ilovemountains.org

[TornadoTN]

82. I'm with you on this - it's a sensible first step

The coal companies do it because its cheap and easy, and it requires less people and resources on their part to make it happen.

We need to prohibit it entirely and make the coal companies work with the communities to find a way to harness the resources or find another deposit that doesn't require mountaintop removal.

It doesn't get us away from coal entirely, but it does remove one very destructive and senseless practice from the equation.

[X_Digger]

101. Err.. Old Growth?!?

Lol, go visit Grundy, Va (a billion dollars of coal came from this county).. all the mountain tops are ringed with decaying logging roads from the 20's-40's. There is no old growth forest there. They were logged for the timber itself, and they were logged to supply timbers for the mines.

[Shireling]

122. I know that there

are old growth forests in Appalachia, at least according to what I have read. I would guess that they exist around streams in areas that were hard to log. But with mountaintop removal, the excess debris is dumped into streams. The streams are then buried or terribly polluted. Anyway, old growth forests or not, we have to keep our mountains and our streams.

[Trailrider1951]

84. Hi there Bob from one of the Honakers

I want to say hi even though I have no answers for you. My parents were from your neck of the woods. The year before I was born, my dad got hurt in the mine and mom made him quit. They ended up moving to Ohio where dad got a job in a factory manufacturing aircraft for the military. Now that those jobs are pretty much gone, there just aren't any easy answers. I wish you and your family all the luck in the world!
:hug:

[dgibby]

87. I'm from Alleghany Co, Va.

Clifton Forge, to be exact. Our main industry was the railroad. We had a huge yard, complete with roundhouse, shops, etc. Moved a gianormus amount of coal from WVa. to the coast.

When C&O became CSX, they started downsizing the yards, closed the shops. It was devastating for the economy, and we've never really recovered, although things are better than they were.

The other major industry there is the WestVaCo papermill in Covington, but, of course, not everyone who worked for the railroad could get hired on there, so many families were forced to relocate.

As for what to do about retraining. I think it might be beneficial to involved your local politicians as well as Sen. Jim Webb. He, IMO, would probably be most helpful. If you've read his book, "Born Fighting", you know that his family is from Southwest Va, Giles Co, I believe, and he is very interested in that part of the state. If he's unable to help, he can probably steer you in the right direction, provide contacts, etc. It's worth a try.

On edit: I think it might be a good idea to contact the folks at Va. Tech, too. I suspect you'd be able to get a lot of good ideas from them.

[TornadoTN]

92. VA Tech is a great resource

I use their research department quite a bit and occasionally have need to speak with the mining researchers and chairs. They have a complete department set up to advance technologies that are beneficial for the nation and the region in particular.

Not only are they working on alternative energy projects, but they are working on advancing coal technology so it can be applied in other fields and uses. It really is impressive and it seems to me as if they are really trying to think long-term in their vision.

[X_Digger]

103. Peee-Yeew!! (Covington paper mill)

I drove through there every year on my way to Bath County to go hunting. Even if you were in a closed car, you could smell when you were close to Covington. Lovely place, though.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

88. Somebody has to maintain all those windmills, right?

They're big. There has to be a LOT of them. They're spread over HUGE areas. They have lots of movable and electrical parts that break. They need factories to make such parts.

Wind power may have some non-trivial downsides, but it doesn't look very labor-unfriendly to me compared to other industries.

[TornadoTN]

95. Looking at the long-term, that's a very big piece of the puzzle

I think a lot of us here get a bit of tunnel vision and expect things to happen overnight. Our dependency on coal needs to be lessened and we need to transition to alternative energy sources. But it won't happen overnight and we can't risk alienating and essentially destroying an entire regions very way of life without a feasible plan in place to take its place. A long term plan that transitions to green energy is a very good way to accomplish this over time.

In my opinion, we've barely scratched the surface of what we can actually do with coal. There are a lot of research projects that are showing potential in not only making coal "greener", but using it in totally different applications that will lessen our dependency on oil for gasoline and for plastics (and other uses as well). So there will be a place for coal, just not as big of a role as it was before. There are many companies that support the coal industry that can be converted to support green energy - but we have to show them that its profitable and help ease the growing pains of the transition.

[AngryAmish]

93. Steelworkers had to do the same thing

Obama talked about it in one of his books, I think. When he was a community organizer he tried to help laid off steelworkers. These men made a great wage working in a steel mill. One of the guys worked on a straightening machine. All he did was hit buttons on a machine that straightened steel.

That guy had no skills other than hitting buttons but was paid a great wage. When the mill closed he was SOL.

This is an ongoing problem. What do we do with the left quadrant of the IQ bell curve? How do they make a living? Or do we just pay them welfare as long as they don't get into trouble?

[ogneopasno]

102. While your question is legitimate, I strongly object to your characterization of blue-collar workers

as the "left quadrant of the IQ bell curve."

[AngryAmish]

107. Why?

Some people are smarter than others. Not every blue collar worker is stupid but since peole in that quadrant of the bell curve are unsuited to jobs which require abstract thinking what other work would you have them do?

[ogneopasno]

108. Because the kind of jobs we are talking about here are generally skilled positions, and for you to

imply that these people are dumb is insulting and inaccurate. Why do you assume people work these jobs because they can't do anything else?

There is definitely a question of what people with developmental disabilities can do for a living. As I understand it, that isn't the discussion we're having here.

[Roadless]

104. Just like the stock market worker or the fired IT guy......

...no one is guaranteed permanent employment. If we are doing the wrong thing in terms of affecting our environment in a way that hurts people, jobs should not be guaranteed. The viability of this place we call home supercedes a generation of employment in a specific field.

[many a good man]

109. Points to a MUCH bigger issue: self-sustainable local economies

Rural problems like this have much in common with small towns and villages everywhere. America and Europe were once dotted with small towns that did not require a huge dependency on the outside world. Of course, they relied on transportation and trade but they were able to exist for centuries. Now they are all threatened. All the jobs have moved to large urban areas and the people that remain either have to commute long distances or suffer in poverty.

We need to find a way to save these small towns. We need to find a way they can thrive and survive. There must be a way to create self-sustaining communities where you don't have to travel dozens or hundreds of miles for stores, banks, schools, medical care, etc. We can't wind up with a situation where 99% live in overgrown cities and enormous stretches of every country are depopulated or living in perpetual depression. That is where we are headed if we're not there already.

The economy in the world of cities accelerates at a much faster pace than the rest of the country. How can we find a way to keep these smaller places livable communities into the future?

[snooper2]

110. Programs Are Out There You and Your Friend Should Use the Googles

http://www.workforcewv.org/

WORK FORCE WEST VIRGINIA


http://www.doleta.gov/layoff/pdf/WorkerWARN2003.pdf

Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification Act
Public Law 100-379 (29 U.S.C. §2101 et. seq.)

Who is affected by the Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification (WARN) Act?
Employers with 100 or more full-time workers and the employer deems it necessary to do any of the following:

Close a facility or discontinue an operating unit with 50 or more full-time workers;

Lay off 50-499 full-time workers (and these workers comprise at least 33% of the total work force at a single site of employment) or,


Lay off 500 or more full-time workers at a single site of employment.

Employers must send notice, in writing, to the following three entities:

Each employee to be laid off or, if represented by a union(s), to the employee’s union representative(s). Mailing of notice to employee’s last known address or inclusion of notice in the employee’s paycheck envelope is also an appropriate means of notice.

The local government’s chief elected official. If in more than one jurisdiction, notice should be sent to the local elected official of the jurisdiction to which the most taxes are paid.

The West Virginia State Dislocated Worker Unit, at the following address:

West Virginia Dislocated Worker Unit
Attn: Martha Craig-Hinchman
112 California Avenue
Charleston, WV 25305

What should be included in the notice?

The name and street address of the employment site where the plant closing or mass layoff will occur;

A statement as to whether it is a plant closing or a mass layoff;

The expected date of the first separation and the number of affected employees in each job classification;

A statement as to the existence of any applicable bumping rights;

Where applicable, the name of each union and the name and address of the chief elected officer of each union; and

The name, address, and telephone number of a company official to contact for further information.

These are the major provisions of the WARN legislation. Employers are encouraged to consult an attorney if faced with the unpleasant prospect of a plant closing or mass layoff if they have questions regarding this legislation. Additional information on WARN is also available at the U.S. Department of Labor website by clicking on www.dol.gov/dol/compliance/comp-warn.htm.

A Rapid Response Team has been established to provide employment transition information to dislocated workers covered by WARN on resources and services available for career planning, classroom training opportunities, financial guidance, job placement assistance, unemployment benefits, stress counseling, and much more. WARN for Employers

WARN for Workers

WARN for Workers in Spanish

WARN Notices

WARN for Employers | WARN for Workers | WARN for Workers in Spanish | WARN Notices



"The Department is focusing its efforts to help workers find new jobs or
access training opportunities to prepare for new jobs. Information about the
nearest location for such assistance can be obtained by calling the National
Toll-Free Help Line at 1-877-US-2JOBS (TTY: 1-877-889-5627). These services
are available to all workers whether or not they have received a WARN
notice."

[deaniac21]

112. Invent the diamond press and keep mining coal for jewelry.

[radfringe]

113. coal mining isn't going to stop overnight

it's going to be a gradual process of closings as the Green Tech grows

what the miners can do is to start talking to their union reps about getting retraining provisions into any Green Tech bills that hit the congressional floor

[HillWilliam]

114. Both sides have a point

but let me throw this out for consideration. True, it's one thing to retrain for new jobs. And it's also true that a lot of times those jobs don't show up. Often what's missing is the fact that you have to bitch, moan, petition, scrap, threaten, be a veritable thorn in the ass of your congresscritter every second in order to make sure that those jobs arrive. It shouldn't have to be that way, but given the way our political system has devolved, that's the way it is. To wit:

Give a congresscritter one second to lay on his ass and do nothing for you, and they'll take all year and do exactly that. You have to stay on them.

Think about this: Most folks never, ever write their congresscritters even once in their entire lives. I've asked all my neighbors and about 99% haven't.

Little wonder we don't get the results we hope for when we elect them.

Just thinkin' out loud here, but I'm thinkin' if you want something bad enough, you'll do what it takes to impel your congresscritters to make it happen. That includes getting the retraining and the jobs. And making sure we keep those jobs at home.

We're a successful bunch. Look what we did to get Obama in office and to start turning Congress Blue. It doesn't stop there. That was just the start of it. You have to stay on them or they'll start running wild and we'll never accomplish what we hoped to do when we started out.

We said "yes we can" all last year.

This year and the succeeding years, we should be saying "now y'all just watch here and see how it's done".

[Lorien]

117. Coal miners are not complete dipshits. They can be retrained for new jobs

and these days telecommuting jobs make every place in America a decent job market if you have the right skills. Put a few tax dollars into training programs-for green tech or a thousand other positions. I'm sick to death of people arguing that miners or timber industry workers or any other group is far too moronic to handle being retrained for a better, cleaner, safer job.