The Greatest Cliché: The Unexamined Propaganda of "Political Correctness"

[Hello_Kitty]

The single best take-down of the odious canard known as "PC" that I've ever encountered. Discuss.

The blogosphere has its own style of cyber-fad clichés, slightly more high-handed than the stentorian pap of talking-head TV, and occasionally more illuminating. Two examples that leap to my mind are the inescapable utterances of "schadenfreude" and "kabuki", expressions whose exoticism appears to elevate their usage to haute-cliché à la William Safire. No matter what political controversy is being discussed these days, you're likely to run across bloggers busting out these 3-syllable badges of faux-erudition with about as much linguistic adroitness as tap-dancers on stilts.


However, there's one political cliché so popular, so omnipresent, so densely far-reaching, that it is without doubt the greatest cliché of our time. It is the One Cliché to rule them all: "political correctness" and its variants. What's striking about the repetitive droning complaints about "PC" (from both conservatives and liberals) is that the expression itself — not to mention the concept it invokes — is as sloppily unexamined as it is pedestrian.

The phrase "politically correct" can be used in two distinct ways: either with its original literal meaning, or with the mocking sarcasm that's common these days. I'll get to the former in a moment, but I'll begin with the latter. As it's commonly used, "PC" is a deliberately imprecise expression (just try finding or writing a terse, precise definition) because its objective isn't to communicate a substantive idea, but simply to sneer and snivel about the linguistic and cultural burdens of treating all people with the respect and sensitivity with which they wish to be treated. Thus, the Herculean effort required to call me "Asian American" rather than "chink" is seen as a concession to "the PC police", an unsettling infringement on the free-wheeling conversation of, I suppose, "non-chinks". Having to refer to black folks as "African Americans" rather than various historically-prevalent epithets surely strikes some red-blooded blue-balled white-men as a form of cultural oppression. Having to refer to "women" rather than "bitches" lays a violent buzzkill on the bar-room banter of men preoccupied with beating on their chests and off other body parts.

Obviously these examples fall on the simplistic side of things, but I think they illustrate the shaky philosophical foundation of today's usage. Underlying every complaint of "PC" is the absurd notion that members of dominant mainstream society have been victimized by an arbitrarily hypersensitive prohibition against linguistic and cultural constructions that are considered historical manifestations of bigotry. It's no coincidence that "PC"-snivelers are for the most part white men who are essentially saying, "Who the hell do these marginalized groups think they are to tell me how I should or shouldn't portray them? I'm not going to say 'mentally challenged' when it's my right to say 'retard', goshdarnit there's only so much abuse I'll take!"

more

[hfojvt]

1. some of it is generational, more than it is white

Older people grew up saying and thinking things like 'black' and 'retarded'. That's the way it was and we liked it! Now who tells us we cannot say such things? Not black people or retards. No, we are told such by insolent young punks (excuse me, conformity disadvantaged) blithely strolling across our lawns like they paid for the fertilizer. "We're better than ossified bigots like you," they sneer. "WE say 'african american'"

Probably never heard of Smokey the bear either.

Another part is probably locational. As the new way of talking was taught first on the coasts and in urban areas and only later spread into the heartland and more rural areas.

One of the problems is in the delivery. A person is going along, trying to express an idea or tell a story. Instead of getting a response to the ideas presented, the responses become an attack on the language, and further, a personal attack on the person using the language. "You are a bigot because you used phrase X".

I am not sure how open most people are to changing the way they talk when they have talked that way for thirty or forty years. Particularly when they are told to change the way they talk by people who 'unfairly' attack them.

I wonder how the author of this piece would feel if she/he was told to knock off the attitude towards men and white people?

[Hello_Kitty]

2. Gee, I didn't realize men and white people were such persecuted minorities.

Thank you so much for making the point of the article. Did you even read the whole thing?

[hfojvt]

4. do only persecuted minorities suffer? Hath not a white guy eyes?

If a white guy is being bullied or mocked by somebody is he not a victim?

Is it okay to mock these imaginary white guys who are jacking off with their blue balls and pounding on their chests? (What, no belching?)

Far be it from me to cramp her style by suggesting she could be a little bit more sensitive and use a little bit less mass stereotyping.

[Hello_Kitty]

6. Hath not a white guy the ability to not be a bigoted jackass?

Far be it from me (or the writer of the article) to cramp your style by suggesting that you could be a little more sensitive and use a little bit less mass stereotyping, rather than throw out the accusation of "OMG UR BEING PC!" when someone suggests to you that a phrase you've used comfortably for 40 years is actually offensive? Because seriously, dude, you're not making a good case for your initial defense of the poor widdle old white guys who can't help but use some offensive phrases, with this insistence on "political correctness" when it comes to talking about said poor widdle old white guys.

Honestly, your posts are exemplary of the kind of dominant class entitlement attitude that feminists and people concerned with racial equality find so aggravating. We are expected to stop and genuflect before the Great White Liberal Dude, and reassure him, before we can discuss anything having to do with race or gender. Blecch. :puke:

[whathehell]

30. if a white guy is being bullied or mocked...

It is probably NOT for being "white" or a "guy"....

He may be a "victim"..but it's rarely, if EVER, for that tragic condition of birth "white maleness".

[Political Heretic]

86. White guy hath privilege, jackass. Thus ought to be embarassed to tears to talk about

white "oppression."

[hfojvt]

131. privilege, ah ha. So when you cut us, we do not bleed.

I don't think I said anything about 'oppression'. Just that when I am attacked, I defend myself. I made no claim about "oh, white males are sooo oppressed"

[Touchdown]

139. Bigot! You didn't say equus africanus asinus

Shame on you!;)

[Touchdown]

137. It's true. When she's stereotyping white guys, she loses her point.

She's as guilty as those she denigrates in the honky tonk she pulled out of her ass.

[Touchdown]

133. Oh' God. There's more?

If it's such a big article, then why did you choose to paste those hypocritical paragraphs you did? She's calling out bigots, while being bigoted toward them.

[Hello_Kitty]

136. Because copyright rules limit you to 4 paragraphs. eom

[Touchdown]

138. So why'd you choose THOSE 4?

If she's so brilliant, as you say, those 4 undermine her argument.

[Hello_Kitty]

158. To make you cry. eom

[Touchdown]

160. Eh' You just don't know your place!

EOM

[Hello_Kitty]

3. BTW, just because you've said a particular thing for 30 or 40 years.

It doesn't make it right.

[hfojvt]

5. Who decides though?

Consider the words 'black' and 'colored' and 'negro'. Are those bad words, equivalent to the n-word? Well, if so, then somebody oughta tell the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the United Negro College Fund.

As for black, my 14 year old niece asserted 'they don't like to be called blacks'. Excuse me, but how does she know that? Certainly not by experience with black people, which I have far, far more of than she does. No, she was told this by some of her white teachers and then feels free, or obligated, to assert it to an adult she should probably have more respect for.

Actual members of a group saying that something offends them is one thing. For fellow white people, younger than me, to get holier than thou, is quite another. If I was voting for Jesse Jackson before you were born, then you have no business calling me a racist for using an out-dated term.

[Hello_Kitty]

7. You weren't voting for Jesse Jackson before I was born.

Unless Jesse Jackson ran for something in 1967. I fail to see how that justifies you using whatever term you feel like to describe a group of people less privileged than you.

Also, I fail to see why your power struggle with your 14 year old niece is relevant.

[Threedifferentones]

35. HelloKitty, both of you are making valid points, and they are not necessarily exclusive

At one point saying "colored" was a rather polite way to refer to someone of African descent. Lou Reed said "colored girls" in a famous song...does that prove he's a racist?

The conversation with the niece is very relevant, although it was clever of you to marginalize/ridicule it by suggesting he had a "power struggle" with a 14 year old girl.

This girl has no experience dealing in mixed cultures, no real grasp of the depth or complexities of racial and cultural stereotypes in America, yet she is clearly more sensitive to the issue because her white teacher taught her the "proper" word?

I talk to "African Americans" everyday, at work and in bars afterwards, none of them mind referring to our skin tones as "black" and "white," even though those descriptions are not literally true. Sometimes they call me "whiteboy," should I be offended? IMO only if they mean it spitefully.

Of course the other side of coin is that "whiteboy" does not carry the weight that the "n-word" and other epithets for blacks do, since it does not have such a long and tragic history. Sometimes white men do need to be especially sensitive to our nation's history of racial and sexual oppression.

So, and forgive this terrible pun, but I cannot resist, language is not always a "black and white" issue. Just because someone claims that "hey I say black person in a non-racist way" does not mean they are claiming to be "oppressed by PCness."

Moreover, it is funny that you would complain about having to stop and reassure the Great White Liberal Dude in order to have an open conversation, while at the same time insisting that a white man adopt the terms you prefer in order to have a conversation. Don't you see just a little bit of irony there?

[Hello_Kitty]

39. No, I don't see the "irony" there.

Having to genuflect before the white males in your presense to reassure them of their liberal bona fides before any conversation of race or gender issues can begin is a way that they assert their privilege. That's exactly what hjovt is doing in this thread.

And I notice that several people are hung up on specific terms like "African American" or "mentally retarded" instead of addressing the subject of the OP, which is the disingenuous and intellectually sloppy meme "PC". I also notice you are sidestepping the actual topic too. Who cares what Lou Reed said 35 years ago?

[Threedifferentones]

44. Ummmm

I am responding to your conversation. Nothing in the article is fresh to me at all. Yes, lots of bigots use PC as a way to legitimize their hate in a world that is growing increasingly tired of it. This just in, water is wet and GWB is an asshole!

Just because lots of assholes bitch about being oppressed by PCness does not mean someone who uses words which are no-nos in your saintly vocabulary is one of said assholes. Lou Reed said colored girls 35 years ago, Lou Reed is not a racist, hence someone who says colored does not necessarily view black people as inferior.

Peace.

[Hannah Bell]

56. you're irony-challenged?

[Hello_Kitty]

68. Do you need a Midol?

Because you must be on your period. You're a chick, after all. :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

73. i do need an aspirin. got one?

[Hannah Bell]

74. you might listen, s/he's actually saying something important about the ultimate sources

of the "ideas" we think are "ours" & cling to so tightly, & why they change so frequently that generations are set against each other.

what s/he's saying is much more interesting than the stupid "if you don't talk like x you're a troglodyte" bs.

[immoderate]

15. Now I'm wondering what to call black folks who aren't American.

:shrug:

--imm

[Zywiec]

16. CNN still calls them African American even when they're French

They don't want to insult anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNxfxrA1o8

[Hannah Bell]

58. thus revealing the idiocy.

[Hello_Kitty]

77. Yeah, that totally reveals it.

CNN anchors fucking up. Ultimate cultural barometer. Let's just drop all pretense of respect for other people now. Let's go back to the days of Mad Men, because that was such an awesome time in this country for women and people of color. I mean, people weren't all bogged down with this PC stuff back then.

[Hannah Bell]

80. who decided "african american" was "respectful"? do you even *know*?

i suggest part of your problem may be you think tv shows accurately represent historical reality. & i don't mean the decor.

[Hello_Kitty]

94. Actually, I've been told that Mad Men is very accurate.

By people old enough to remember the era.

Why are you, and so many people on this thread, fixated on specific phrases like "African-American" instead of addressing the point of the article, which was a criticism of the meme of "PC"? Yes, some African-American people are fine with, or ever prefer, being called black. So fucking what? Seriously, what is it about my OP that has your panties in a bunch? Did you once call someone an offensive name and get in trouble for it or something? You really do seem to be taking something personally.

[Hannah Bell]

96. i don't care what you've been told. tv is never "accurate".

you seem to be taking it personally yourself.

[Hello_Kitty]

98. Oh I see. You're one of those people who has to be right all the time.

Okay, you're right.

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

103. if someone disagrees with you/criticizes something of yours, it must be their personal dysfunction.

amazingly "pc"!

[Hello_Kitty]

114. And if you disagree with someone's OP

You immediately show up to be a sarcastic and insultin asshole.

Not surprised by your behavior. There's something about the use of a Marx avatar that just screams "Insufferable Pedantic Bore Alert". :shrug:

[Runcible Spoon]

180. edit.

I've decided not to get mired down in this thread.

[hiphopnation]

181. oh just you wait

it gets much worse, down thread

[Hello_Kitty]

186. Oh come on, you know you want to.

Funny how a thread about "PC" has devolved into such a flamewar. It's also ever so funny how the people who are the most upset about it are the ones who want other people to lighten up and stop being so "PC".

Guess this proves that we're all a bit sensitive.

[Lost in CT]

102. Are there really blacks that prefer African American???

And If so where... maybe it is a regional thing.

[Hello_Kitty]

105. I personally know a few.

I also know people who prefer to be called black. And some who don't care either way.

This fixation on "African American" is a neat way of avoiding the real topic of the OP. If you don't want to address the author's point that PC is a disingenuous and intellectually sloppy meme you don't have to. Read some other threads. DU is full of them.

[Lost in CT]

122. Honestly African American is one of the sloppiest PC changes of the last 25 years.

So it is no surprise it comes up. (Though If Intersex takes hold it will be a personal awkward favorite)

PC when it comes to ideas is a serious problem (Closing down a branch of scientific inquiry because Native Americans don't want to be told the truth... refusing to investigate if men and woman only classrooms have some serious advantages in Junior High are two of many examples)... when it comes to language it is a silly problem. (People with class whether black or white don't say bitches. Or the uneducated lower classes use such terms in public... same goes with many other PC terms. It is a useful way to find out who doesn't belong.)

[hfojvt]

126. but PC is about terms, African American is one example

the complaint about PC is not about a demand to use racial slurs. It is more about defending terms or phrases that were once considered mostly harmless, such as 'black' or 'colored' and now have to be edited, and that people saying them need to be corrected, sometimes very rudely.

Consider the song sung in my Methodist church prior to children's sermon. "Jesus loves the little children". When I learned this song, the words were

"Jesus loves the little children
ALL the children of the world
red and yellow, black and white
they are precious in his sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world."

However, somebody, somewhere decided that those words needed to be 'improved'. Now the song is

"Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
every shade from dark to light
they are precious in his sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world."

Some other people take some umbrage at the idea that there was something seriously wrong with the old song and don't like the fact that it was changed.

I am not against more sensitivity. To an extent, I am arguing for more sensitivity rather than less. That the correction-brigade needs to be a little bit sensitive and understanding even of the white men that they apparently hold in such contempt. If you come at the problem as 'here's another oppressive, chest-pounding, pud-wacking simian white male that I am gonna put in his place' then don't expect a lot of positive change.

[Hello_Kitty]

142. They should have changed the song.

While "black" and "white" are (arguably) acceptable descriptors for people, there's no way in hell that "yellow" and "red" aren't offensive. And I'm not interested in an argument over that. They're just not.

I am not against more sensitivity. To an extent, I am arguing for more sensitivity rather than less. That the correction-brigade needs to be a little bit sensitive and understanding even of the white men that they apparently hold in such contempt. If you come at the problem as 'here's another oppressive, chest-pounding, pud-wacking simian white male that I am gonna put in his place' then don't expect a lot of positive change.

Can you possibly, just once, for a teeny tiny minute, not make everything about YOU?

[hiphopnation]

121. i don't know any. n/t

[ieoeja]

140. I know quite a number of Black people who do.

I don't know any who have a problem with African American today (except those who are not American; it annoys the hell out of them). But when it first came out I knew a lot who were ticked off.

A century spent fighting segregation only to have Black leadership re-segregate themselves through hyphenation?

Yes, I knew a LOT of Black people who were REALLY pissed off about this for several years.

[newtothegame]

25. AA is an interesting term...

Charlize Theron, the actress, was born in Africa, and lives in America, and yet she's not an African American.

And yet I, who was born in America, and hasn't had a ancestor born outside of the United States of America for 100's of years, am an African American. :shrug:

Random.

[Lost in CT]

34. Are not all black people American?????

I mentioned this down thread.

[Lost in CT]

33. Ask you 14 year old niece about smoking...

The indoctrination in schools is strong... BTW I think black is more accepted nowadays among real people. (You may want to let your niece know her teacher is wrong)

[Hannah Bell]

17. Doesn't make it wrong either. I grew up in the 60s. "Black" became the respectful term then,

In comparison to "negro," which had been the respectful term of an earlier generation, in comparison to "colored".

"Say it loud, I'm black & I'm proud!"

The change in terms was part of the Civil Rights movement. "Black power"

To me, "African-American" sounds like it came out of some university think-tank in comparison - bureaucratic, colorless, boring.

If someone doesn't mean offense, don't take it.

[Touchdown]

146. And now we're back full circle.

Colored
Negro
Black
African American
Person of Color

Second verse, same as the first.

[PVnRT]

19. So, because some people have habits, it's OK?

That really makes no sense at all.

[Hannah Bell]

61. what is this "it"?

[Gormy Cuss]

49. You're explaining usage of outdated terms. The OP is about the whiney term "political correctness."

If someone grew up saying "chink" and now gets corrected, the person has two choices. One is to listen to the correction, reflect on it, and adapt newer language. The other is to become defensive. Usually the defensive posture is along the lines of "that's what I've always called them and I'm not changing now," which is a confrontational ownership of the offending term. Calling the correction "political correctness" is a deflective defense designed to place the burden on the listener while the speaker takes no responsibility for the offense.

[Hannah Bell]

66. but that's not the typical case. most people don't throw "chink" into routine conversations as a

synonym for chinese, & chink was never a polite term.

the more routine case would be someone using a phrase they were taught was polite only to be reprimanded for doing so - hostilely, in most cases.

in grad school, a diabetic classmate reprimanded me for saying she "was a diabetic".

do you know why? because, according to her, my use of this phrase meant i viewed her as her disease. the expression i should have used was "a person with diabetes".

this is, imo, insane.

other than that, she was a nice person.

[marmar]

8. The term "PC" and the attendant disdain for it have always bugged me.......

Clearly, some people don't like the fact that people of color, women, gays & lesbians et all determined that they'll decide what to call themselves. Self-empowerment.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. They use it as blanket immunity

If they preface a phrase with "I know this isn't 'PC' but...", they can say whatever bigoted thing they want.

[Zywiec]

12. How do these groups determine what they'll call themselves?

Is there a secret vote?

[Threedifferentones]

41. *Gasp*

Careful Zy, we would not want to disturb the self-righteousness of others by pointing out that PCness is not always a "black and white" issue...sorry about the pun, I still can't resist. Anyways, that is exactly the problem with endeavoring to label a word as good or bad. Like others have said, who decides? It seems to me that a fair bit of language is personal and situational.

[Lost in CT]

37. They don't decide for themselves some paternal twit decides for them.

It's not like there is a vote or something...

I doubt there was a poll of hermaphrodites when the PC powers of stupidity decided Intersex is a less offensive term. So now it is GLBTQI instead of GLBTQH

Heck I'm not even sure why Hermaphrodites are even included with the GLBTQ list anyway.... And I somewhat doubt more than a couple of them were asked.

The whole nonsense seems a bit presumptuous.

Oh and FYI Filapina is also now a bad word

But what do I know I'm a dinosaur that still uses waitress and actress. (both now apparently considered offensive)

[Hannah Bell]

69. you're closer there than you think. in fact, a lot of it comes from the top.

another case where the rank & file adopt what elites tell them to think without realizing it.

[Zywiec]

85. How do you think a group of people with an IQ of less than 70

not only came to the consensus that the term retarded was derogatory, but also disseminated this to its members?

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

95. they didn't. but interest groups & organizations of families & professionals can do so

quite easily.

It is one of those groups who decided that the old common & non-derogatory designation "Down's syndrome" should be changed to "Down syndrome," so their membership could call people who still used the old term "ignorant".

happened to me right here on DU.

[Lost in CT]

106. So Down's syndrome is now Down Syndrome... man they need memos...

And no one has ever explained what is wrong with Steward and Stewardess?????


Since this is a PC thread maybe someone can educate me.

[Hannah Bell]

116. -ess ending is gendered, tool or oppression, how we speak shapes how we think.

I just wish people would give *half* the attention they give to such *bullshit* to things that might actually make a difference.

Like economics.

But that's too fucking hard.

[Hello_Kitty]

135. You seem to be paying a lot of attention to it right now.

I just wish people would give *half* the attention they give to such *bullshit* to things that might actually make a difference.

Like economics.


Yeah, what's with people like that Noam Chomsky guy? Wasting all that time on linguistics. Oh wait...he talks about economics too! He's written extensively about how language is used to perpetuate certain economic and political ideas.

And it's actually possible for people to pay attention to more than one thing at once. If you are that concerned people aren't talking about economics enough, start a thread about it. I mean, since my OP was so banal and such *bullshit* and all, why are you still here? :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

206. chomsky's linguistics has nothing to do with your hobbyhorse.

he's written "extensively" on phrase structure
grammar.

This kind of analysis, not a cultural analysis:


Phrase-Structure Grammars. 

"A phrase-structure grammar G is defined as an ordered
quadruple of the form: 

G = < V N2 V T2, S2, Pv  where the entries are identified
as follows: 

VN is a nonterminal vocabulary consisting of the lexical and
syntactic category labels; 

VT denotes a set of words, called the terminal vocabulary of
G; 

S is a special member of VN that, in addition to being the
label of the sentence category, identifies the starting symbol
of G; and 

P identifies the collection of rewriting rules, described as
the production set of the grammar." 


http://web.uvic.ca/~ling48x/ling484/notes/psg.html

[Quantess]

203. I think trisomy 21 has always been called Down Syndrome.

But as recently as a few decades ago, people popularly called it "mongolism" and referred to people with trisomy 21 as "mongoloids".

"Down's Syndrome" is a misspelling.

[Hannah Bell]

208. Down's syndrome was the term used in printed material at the

YMCA day camp for DD kids I worked at circa 1969.

[FloridaJudy]

204. Amen!

It's often struck me that what the RW dismisses as "PC" is simply what my mother taught me as good manners. Ask people what they would like to be called, and then abide by their wishes. It's served me well for decades.

Why anyone would find that concept offensive is beyond me.

[morgan2]

9. most people complaining about PC terms

are much more benign terms. Terms that arent inherently meant to be bad, such as retarded and have been co-opted as insults. Now because its an insult to be called retarded, some people think we can't call people who are retarded retarded. Obviously its not nice to say it hurtfully, or throw someones face in it, but simply using the term isn't offensive.

[Bunny]

29. But it *is* offensive, to people with mental retardation.

They don't like to be called retarded, you can trust me on this. And I think they, not us, get to decide how they want to be referred to.

[Hannah Bell]

72. that one, i think, *is* intended to be mocking. i don't think that's really a case of pc.

it's usually used to denigrate.

unlike, e.g. "black" or "lady" or "girl".

[lumberjack_jeff]

172. It is a clinical term. Nevertheless, it is used in a pejorative way, and is hurtful. n/t

[Kitty Herder]

11. Being politically correct is just another way of saying having good manners.

Some people will always be rude and they will always have excuses for it. Like being "offended" at being expected to be p.c.

[Hello_Kitty]

14. Like Robin Morgan said, PC stands for Plain Courtesy. eom

[Hannah Bell]

18. The article is stereotyped garbage, printed by ruling class lackeys to divide people

over silly things.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. Yeah, bitches and niggers just need to lighten up

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

48. you miss the point. entirely.

[Lost in CT]

59. Outside of African American Rappers who really uses such language. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

70. Oh geez, this bullshit again.

"Wah! Teh rapperz gets to say nigger but I don't!1! Thats unfair!1! Reverse discrimunashun!!!1!"

:eyes:

[Lost in CT]

91. I wouldn't want to use those words I have class and education.

My point was in reality outside of rap musicians and 13 year old white boys that are their primary fan base.... who else talks that way

[Hello_Kitty]

127. I find that people who have to announce how classy they are.

Aren't.

[Lost in CT]

129. Again I do not know anybody, of any race, who uses those words...

make of that what you will....

Obviously you must hang with a different "crowd"

Perhaps among your peers a top down directive is applicable to improve their speech.

[ieoeja]

You are correct. I only know a handful of ignoramuses who use "nigger" all the time.

Most of the higher class people I know call them "monkeys" or "darkies". They have come to accept that "nigger" is a vulgar term.

[Lost in CT]

200. Funny i don't know anybody who uses such terms... nt

[Hannah Bell]

76. no, it's often a way of getting one-up on others, & being rude.

[Lorien]

159. Yep. Down here in the South I hear complaints against the "PC police"

all the time from racists who want to be free to call African Americans "n*ggers" and Mexicans "Wetbacks". I've been asked by male coworkers why I was employed and not married and pregnant instead, then when they got a withering look in reply they'd say "Oh sorry, is that not pC enough for you? Don't tell me that you're one of those feminazis"! Being proudly "anti-PC" seems to be very popular among extremely rude, entitled but ignorant straight white Protestant males.

[Hannah Bell]

210. When I hear "PC Police," people who get offended when people use words *clearly*

intended to denigrate, like "n----r," is not what I think of.

What i think of is people taking offense over language clearly *not* intended to denigrate.

[Berry Cool]

13. It has always been my contention than PC'ness comes in two flavors,

liberal and conservative.

The conservative flavor of PC is when one constantly speaks of "tax burdens" and "tax relief" rather than "the responsibility to pay one's fair share of taxes" or "tax avoidance." And that's just a start.

[last_texas_dem]

209. I agree. Conservatives are the source of some of the most obnoxious PC terms

that have come about in recent years: "death tax," "personal savings accounts" (rather than partial privatization of social security), etc.

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Anyone who uses the term unironically is an idiot

That's been clear for years.

[Odin2005]

21. "Asian-American" isn't PC. "Undocumented Worker" IS PC.

"Chink" is a derogatory term, "Illegal immigrant" is not. It is the lame argument that the term "illegal immigrant" is calling the immigrant an "illegal person" that makes "Undocumented Worker" a PC euphemism, it's a euphemism designed to obscure the fact the the individuals broke the immigration laws.

[Kansas Wyatt]

23. Fraudulent Worker

You can't work without documents, so whose documents did you use?

Happy now?

[Odin2005]

24. I'll still use "illegal immigrant", thank you.

[AB_Positive]

22. One of the greatest vids showing the stupidity of PC is...

... oddly a video game review by a British-born Australian. It's pithy and sarcastic but I found myself applauding at the end. I recommend it for anyone that finds PC to be, to be blunt, a crock of shit.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/616-50-Cent-Blood-on-the-Sand

His statement on how the PC movement has done more *for* prejudice than against I thought was spot on.

[rolltideroll]

28. Brilliant

Thanks, Too many times diversity is a synonym for discrimination.

[Lost in CT]

40. Love Ben Croshaw always great stuff every Weds. nt

[AB_Positive]

42. He's an auto-watch for me too

Because of him I'm probably one of a few people born in America and having never really travelled to be hooked on Branston Pickle.

Had a BP and Cheese for lunch... teh yummeh. Got my girlfriend hooked on it now too :D

[Lost in CT]

47. I spread mine to thin on the bread for his taste....

Unfortunately I am a guessing that some at DU may not appreciate his brand of humor.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. Oh gee, he's a white guy.

What a surprise. :eyes:

It's a good thing you don't like "PC" because that means it's okay for me to say that guys who like computer games are lame ass douchebag faggots.

:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

50. the only reason anyone might have a problem with the concept is cuz they're

privileged white guys who like to call people names.

i mean, that's, like, so obvious.

[Lost in CT]

62. In what possible way is the immigrant in the video above privledged... seriously.

[Hannah Bell]

92. i have no idea why you're asking the question or what your point is.

[Lost in CT]

97. The immigrant in the video above Mr. Crenshaw... in what way is he privileged.

He criticizes overzealous PC and the claim is made he is obviously privleged... in what way.

(If I mis read your first post I apologize and feel free to ignore this)

[Hannah Bell]

211. I didn't see the video, the only time i used the word "privilege" was ironically.

[Lost in CT]

55. I second your Non-PC using computer geeks are lame ass douchebag faggots

... though I'm not sure what being an Apple user has to do with the fine Ben Croshaw... He doesn't review Apple games and is an immigrant for gods sake.

Why do you hate immigrants?... is it the accent, the strange food choices such as Bransford Pickle or the fact he wears a hat.

[Hello_Kitty]

64. Whatsa matter? Don't like being called names?

Why so PC? :shrug:

[Lost in CT]

89. Cause Apple computers don't work with my Hentai game collection? nt

[starroute]

26. PC-ness becomes a problem when it goes beyond language

The PC controversy may have started with attempts to remove ethnic slurs from public use and then proceeded to jokes about replacing "short" with "vertically challenged," but at least on college campuses it rapidly escalated to the thought police level.

When my older son was in college 10 years ago, he was constantly having run-ins with the extreme PC crowd, not over language but over general attitude, mainly with regard to what could loosely be considered gender issues.

For example, he was involved with an alternative campus publication whose policy was to publish anything that any student wanted to submit -- which stirred up recurring controversies in itself. But the episode that really got him riled was when the publication put up posters showing a dominatrix-type figure with a whip saying "You will submit to the (name of publication)" and somebody who considered this sexist went around campus ripping them all down.

At another point, there had been an attempted rape at a different college in the area, and frightened students at his campus hastily pushed through a number of provisions in response, such as requiring dormitory doors to be kept locked at all times -- which meant a student couldn't visit a friend in another dorm without phoning ahead to have someone meet them at the front door and let them in.

When my son stood up at a student meeting to say there was no sign of any need for these regulations, no indication they would prevent a rape attempt like the one at the other college (which had been in a secluded outdoor area, not a dorm), and significant impediments to ordinary campus social life if they were enacted, he was met by a barrage of counter-arguments which essentially amounted to "You have no sensitivity to my feelings."

My younger son graduated from college 5 years ago, and he ran into the same attitudes -- though he avoided direct run-ins, being less confrontational by nature.

The one thing that does seem to have changed in the last 10 years is that you now get these arguments not just from the left, over racial or gender issues, but also from the right over conservative cultural issues. Even here at DU, it's not possible to say "religion is a myth" without somebody telling you that you're insulting believers, or to say "the South is a center of regressive social and economic attitudes" without being told you're an anti-Southern bigot.

It seems as though we're stuck in a linguistic tangle, where the original attempt to set forth norms of public behavior that would prevent outright hate speech has been co-opted to censor any criticism of a particular group's beliefs and attitudes.

To me, the distinction seems pretty clear. On one side is language that tends to perpetuate current power structures by demeaning and isolating anyone whose positions or even mere existence challenges those power structures. On the other is the use of socially subversive language by the excluded as a way of undermining the power structures that hold them down.

Things only becomes problematic when that distinction is blurred. For example, a group that is an excluded minority in the larger society may have sufficient numbers and influence at a liberal college to start acting like a dominant majority and throwing its weight around -- which was my son's objection -- perhaps without even realizing it.

Conversely, groups that no outside observer would doubt are part of the dominant power structure -- like Christians or white males -- may attempt to cast themselves as oppressed minorities, with the right to use socially subversive language themselves while being protected from having it used against them.

(These two situations are connected, of course, since the right has been very good at picking up incidents of excessive PC-ness on college campuses to either argue against all PC-ness or cast itself as the new oppressed.)

There's no simplistic answer to this tangle -- the only solution I see is to raise everybody's awareness of power relationships in our society and how they mediate all social, economic, and legal interactions, without exception.

In fact, that sort of consciousness-raising would be a good thing in general, since unacknowledged power relationships affect almost every current issue, from the Employee Free Choice Act to copyright and file-sharing to the war on drugs. But it's not something that can be accomplished overnight.

[Hannah Bell]

53. pc - it's a power thing, too.

[Hello_Kitty]

67. I think you just need a man.

That's all you chicks need.

[Hannah Bell]

82. you're silly. you don't have power over me, i don't care what you call me.

[Hello_Kitty]

156. I can tell by the way you keep coming here to comment that you don't care. eom

[Hannah Bell]

224. no logical connection.

[Hello_Kitty]

54. I don't think a lot of you read the whole article.

I posted 4 paragraphs because that's what copyright rules dictate. The author addresses those cultural conservative issues you mention:

Interestingly enough, according to this non-sarcastic, relatively unconsidered, more meaningfully precise definition of the term, the USA is a politically correct nation indeed; but not in the way that most Americans are led to believe. Some examples: Magnetic yellow ribbons are PC. Denouncing Islamism in the name of 9/11 is PC. Reciting the pledge of allegiance is PC. Not talking about radical politics at work or in polite company is PC. Gay-bashing is PC. Standing and placing your hand on your heart during the national anthem is PC. Smiling and applauding when the president enters the room is PC. On the other side of the equation: Marching for civil rights is not PC. Protesting a US war is not PC. Questioning US-Israeli neo-colonial policy in the Middle East is not PC. Calling the US government a white male supremacist corporatist kleptocracy is not PC. Agitating for structural change in our society's distribution of wealth and power is not PC. Refusing to shake a corrupt president's hand is not PC.

[Lost in CT]

111. Your writer lives in some self serving dream world...

Let me guess he is a life long academic who has never held a job or met a real person.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Before it became a rw griping point, however, it was a REAL phrase used by some on the "left".

I remember it. I remember various self-righteous entities on college campuses in the 80s using the phrase in an effort to enforce ideological rigidity and stifle dissent.

So, yes, before people on the right started complaining about excessive "political correctness", before it became a "cliche", it enjoyed it's "original literal meaning". What the article fails to note is that that 'original literal meaning' was so odious and ham-fisted, (despite, yes, the benign intent of having people refer to each other in non-offensive terms) that it hardly took Kreskin to predict a serious, mocking backlash.

Having been a part of that campus left in the 80s, I remember thinking it was not a good approach. No one likes scolds, morals police, and self-appointed nannies.

[Hello_Kitty]

63. I guess you didn't read the whole article

Because you would have seen that it does address the historic origins of the concept of Political Correctness:

As for the original literal meaning of "PC", the phrase is believed to have emerged from China (seriously, I'm not making this up) during the reign of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist thought. Revolutionary leaders unironically applauded words and actions as "politically correct" when these were seen to advance the revolutionary cause (ya think something was lost in translation?). Personally, I suspect that the Chinese phrase predates Maoism and hearkens back to imperial China when complying with the demands of the throne and advancing the interests of the empire, at any level of society, would be "politically correct"; as opposed to, say, writing dissident literature, which would be "politically incorrect" to the point of getting you exiled or executed. In both the Maoist and imperial contexts, the key point to observe is that "PC" denotes alignment with state power. On a semantic and philosophical level, this makes a good deal more sense than the vague pejorative sarcasm of today's "PC"-snivelers.

[Hannah Bell]

88. i didn't read the whole article because the first page was so stupid.

& that excerpt demonstrates it.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Well, then all the more reason why it was an idiotic thing for certain self-appointed poobahs

of the campus left to appropriate in the 1980s.

And they did. Before it was taken as "pejorative sarcasm" by the Rush Limbaughs of the world, it was used with a perfectly straight face as an attempted tool to enforce ideological rigidity. In all seriousness.

Dumb-ass move, because there are far more effective ways of achieving what are oftentimes laudable goals IMHO.

[Hello_Kitty]

195. Really?

Are you saying liberals are to blame for Rush Limbaugh being a bully? And again, you are proving the point I've made, elsewhere, that the most egregious and overblown (and probably apocryphal in many cases) examples of so-called "PC" take place largely on college campuses. Which are rarefied environments that relatively few people experience, believe it or not. Only about 1/4 of kids go to college after high school yet "PC" is a mainstream meme.

[Warren DeMontague]

199. Actually, I don't think you hear it all that much in seriousness, anymore.

My point was, that once upon a time, it really WAS pushed by assorted 'consciousness raising' authorities, in total earnestness. I remember it, and I remember thinking that the framing was exceptionally bad. Again, in pursuit of some oftentimes laudable goals, many of them since incorporated into larger societal norms-- but not due to that particular campaign, which went over SO poorly that not only did the right appropriate it as a meme (and continue to flog it to this day, when it isn't even relevant) but any serious pushing of it, at least under that terminology, burned out pretty fast.

So all that's left is the right wing echo of the thing (and no, the only person responsible for Rush Limbaugh being a fucknut is Rush Limbaugh) ... at least, as near as I can tell. Nevertheless, my point stands- at one point a couple decades ago, there was a concerted effort on the part of some "progressive" authoritarian types to push "Political Correctness" as a talking point, before it became a Right Wing axe to grind.

[Hello_Kitty]

202. I remember it too. I was in college then.

But the earnest PCers were never more than a fringe group, though you wouldn't think so the way, as you correctly point out, the Right latched onto them to advance their anti-education agenda. I recall conservative students being a LOT more obnoxious about pushing their views on people back then, and conservatives were pretty darn sucessful at getting their ideology in the curricula, despite their claims to the contrary. Hell, business schools these days are pretty much right wing propaganda mills but you don't see David Horowitz complaining about the "bias" in them.

[Warren DeMontague]

229. I must have traveled in the fringe groups---

Aint that the truth!

As it was, I only heard it used for real a couple times. Certainly it has been driven to death by the other side.

And getting people to think before labeling other people; again, a laudable goal. The irony with much of that is, that in many aspects society has advanced at a steady clip since then, in lots of these areas; despite all the huffing and puffing on the right-- GLBT rights, for instance.

[Hannah Bell]

84. i remember it too. originated in the sectarian left milieu, is my recollection.

appropriated by the right.

originally a critique of left tendencies by the left, within the left.

now the perview of progressive college coeds *and* rush limbaugh.

worst of both worlds.

[Hello_Kitty]

214. Bzzzzt! Sorry, but thanks for playing.

You don't know the origin of political correctness.

And is your use of 'co-ed' in this post also supposed to be ironic? Because if so: Irony, ur doin it rong.

[Hannah Bell]

227. lady, you weren't there. & you don't have clue one what the sectarian

milieu was.

furthermore, this joke thread is as stale as the OP.

[aikoaiko]

31. This writer is manipulative.

There is nothing wrong with not using and asking people to not use derogatory terms. I think most people agree with that.

But there are plenty of cases of people trying to enforce certain standards that are merely self-serving -- they wish to make themselves appear as if they are better than others. For example, it is fine to use the term Mentally Retarded. Retard, on the other hand, is a derogatory term. Mentally challenged is ok, but less precise than mentally retarded.

Its too bad the writer can't be bothered with thinking through some of the sillier examples of PC just as he/she did with the obvious examples of people who are merely clinging to mean-spirited names.

[Hello_Kitty]

38. "...people who are merely clinging to mean-spirited names."

Are kinda the whole point of the article.

[Hannah Bell]

79. and they're a major social problem, aren't they? i hear these words all the time in public.

actually, i don't.

more often i hear folks with the mentality of college coeds picking apart the vocabulary, intonation & phrasing of others to find fault with it, so they can, in comparison, look superior & hip.

[Hello_Kitty]

196. Co-ed? Holy crap you really are stuck in 1965.

Groovy! :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

212. the irony-challenged one strikes again.

[aikoaiko]

232. Yes, that is the whole point of the article, but that's not the perspective of reasonable people

....who criticize overly zealous PC agendas.


To ignore that aspect of the issue is disingenuous, at best, and manipulative, at worst.

[Hannah Bell]

90. exactly.

[Lost in CT]

32. African American works fine as long as the Black person in question is American and in America.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who has laughed when some copy editor described a Black African in Africa as an African American.

[Festivito]

45. Is schadenfreude a bad slip of the PC to one's spaceless psycho logisticals?

jus' ask'n

[Hello_Kitty]

46. It's rather hilarious watching some people's reactions to the OP

Privilege is a powerful drug, I guess.

[Hannah Bell]

51. yes, i look down haughtily on you all from my privileged perch.

i am, after all, white as snow.

& naturally, i enjoy calling women, gay people, & racial & ethnic minorities bad names as i throw my privilege in their inferiour faces.

[Hello_Kitty]

60. Obviously. eom

[Hello_Kitty]

65. Why so touchy this morning? PMSing?

Hot flashes?

Geez, you bitches just can't take a joke.


:sarcasm:

[Hannah Bell]

78. you're silly. you totally miss the point, & miss it so wide you'll never get it.

[Wednesdays]

71. It's making my ignore list management pretty easy today

:eyes:

[Threedifferentones]

81. You were right, Hello Kitty, I did not read the whole article

The chunk you posted was so banal I did not bother. Now I see there was much more to it.

In America it is cool to bash gays, but not to criticize the army...REALLY?! In America, it is cool to bash socialism, but not Christianity...HOLY SHIT I'D NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED!

What is really funny is that you do not seem to realize that a good chunk of us knew this shit when we were 12. We understand that someone who says "I know its not PC to say this, but black people are..." is a Rush Limbaugh loving racist. We further know that our culture unthinkingly accepts alot of sick shit as just and proper, while open conversation about ideas which threaten the status quo and "powers that be" is often suppressed.

What is not funny is that you personally attack anyone who brings up a nuanced or gray-shaded part of PCness.

Self-righteous arrogance is just as powerful a drug it seems to me. Or, perhaps you are suffering from a lack of sleep, or maybe brain cells altogether...

[Hello_Kitty]

87. On behalf of the entire Internets

Please accept my deepest apologies that the OP I posted was not up to your lofty standards. :eyes:

Oh, and while you're at it, go Cheney yourself.

BTW, if you can't tell that I was making those "personal attacks" facetiously, then it is you who lacks brain cells.

[Threedifferentones]

112. You crossed the line in the very first subthread

You described a well-meaning poster's conversation with his 14 yr old niece as a struggle for dominance. Suggesting that someone's relationship with his family boils down to thinking of ways to dominate children is personally insulting.

The fact that the attacks only got more ridiculous from that silly start does not absolve you. You went off the wall and have been called out on it.

The article is fine, though nothing new. But, when you are already preaching to the choir, you do not always get a chorus of "hoorahs," instead you might get a lot of subtle and personal observations. Hope you're prepared next time.

[Hello_Kitty]

130. Oh brother

You described a well-meaning poster's conversation with his 14 yr old niece as a struggle for dominance. Suggesting that someone's relationship with his family boils down to thinking of ways to dominate children is personally insulting.

:cry: :nopity:

That's funny, I though I was responding to an asshat who refused to acknowlege his white male privilege in that subthread but YMMV.

[Touchdown]

151. Hey you know the violin smiley!

...and you know how to use it. Resourceful bitch, aren't you. Oh' and I mean that in the most respectful way.

[Hello_Kitty]

155. Awww....da poor widdle white dood is getting his fee fees hurted.

:nopity:

[Touchdown]

163. Not really. Just this flaming faggot is having the time of his life

poking holes in your argument and making the biggest fun of you.

[Hannah Bell]

99. oh god it gets more banal. glad i didn't read it.

[Hello_Kitty]

101. If you didn't read it, how do you know?

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

104. cause i read the part he excerpted, & it was worse.

don't have to read it, read the same stupid stuff a million times.

seemed edgy in 1965.

[Hello_Kitty]

108. PC was a common meme in 1965?

Doubt it. Maybe you are watching too much TV.

[Hannah Bell]

113. Uh, no, but how things should be called was a VERY big issue.

"women," not "girl", "black," not "negro," "gendered pronouns are a tool of oppression," etc.

deja vu, man.

i bought into it for some time. until i became the mature person you see before you today.

[Hello_Kitty]

120. And as is typical of old farts, you are threatened by change.

Oh, am I stereotyping? Gee, I guess I am! But hey, it's okay because you're not "PC" or anything.

[Hannah Bell]

213. you seem to have a problem thinking.

It is not "PC" to take offense at language clearly intended to offend, such as "n----r," or even "african-american" delivered in a snotty or sarcastic tone of voice.

You've amply demonstrated on this thread what "PC" is. It's the denigration & stereotyping of people who have no intention to offend because they didn't use the word *you* feel is "correct". i.e. because they can't read your mind.

[Hello_Kitty]

216. You are becoming increasingly incoherent.

And boring.

[Hannah Bell]

225. you've been that way from your first post to me. take a look at it.

[Touchdown]

153. I don't have to shave my ass and sit in a bowl of gin to know it's painful.

Those 4 told me to not waste my time.

[Touchdown]

150. Actually what's more hilarious is your obvious circumlocutions

...to try and salvage a win out of your obvious failure of an argument.:rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

157. Do you know what circumlocution means?

Because I don't think you do.

[Touchdown]

162. Yes I do.

But nice try to get me to define it for you. God put 2 seeeeexy legs under your firm ass for a reason, Baby. Look it up yourself.

[Hello_Kitty]

164. Okay, give me an example of "circumlocution" in a post of mine.

And why.

[Touchdown]

173. Posts.. 2,3,7,7,68,94,39,142...

105,98,114,10,135,14,36,70,127,43,64,37,156,54,79,38,46,87,101,30,154,28........

All these and more are unnecessary when you only need a single post to say... "I am a man hater with a chip on my shoulder."

[Hello_Kitty]

175. I'm impressed that you gathered all those numbers. You still didn't answer me.

Which means you got nuttin'. And pulling the "ZOMG ur a man hayter" card doesn't distract from that.

You are boring.

[Touchdown]

178. I got you didn't I?

So thats... Well, I guess your right. Nuttin'.

[dipsydoodle]

52. May never have fully dawned on some of you

that it actually made you the laughing stock of the rest of the english speaking world.

You fell into the trap of giving words power way outside of their original meanings.

[Hello_Kitty]

57. Blow it out your ass, limey. eom

[dipsydoodle]

75. Sticks and stones............

Common sense should tell you that names are water off a ducks back to me.

For an example of what I meant try "Oriental" which in the USA is derogatory. The PC term would be Asian. However , other than to complete morons the Orient is no more part of Asia than Norway. Orientals do infact regard their being called Asians as derogatory - they are proud to be superior Orientals.

[Hello_Kitty]

83. Sticks and stones my ass

I've seen guys get in fistfights over insults, or even over being looked at in the wrong way. The dignity of a male, particularly one of whatever the dominant caste is in a particular society, is viewed as sacrosant and to be protected to the death if necessary. And language is powerful, no matter how much people want to pretend it isn't so. A misplaced tu in French or Spanish can get the speaker in a lot of hot water. So it's really aggravating when people feign ignorance over why calling women "bitches" is offensive.

BTW, Oriental is considered derogatory in the U.S. Asian people here refer to themselves as either Asian or a particular country of origin. I defer to whatever the person prefers to be called. It's really not that hard to do.

[Hannah Bell]

110. she knows what *everyone* wants to be called! she is the hippest chick in the room.

[Hello_Kitty]

115. Do you have a point, at all?

I mean other than just wanting to throw a tantrum?

[Lost in CT]

143. I've seen guys get in fistfights over insults, or even over being looked at in the wrong way

You should hang out with a better crowd....Unless you are in High School where that first part makes sense or you belong to a defective sub-culture.

[Hello_Kitty]

148. There you go showing how classy you are again.

Wow, you really do put the "ass" in class.

You stay classy, now. :hi:

[Lost in CT]

149. So I lack class because my male friends don't get into fistfights over respect????

I'm speechless... everything you describe both the above and using that language you used is something a 13 year old does... are you hanging around teenagers?

I'm asking quite seriously... because most actual adults don't act this way.

[Hello_Kitty]

154. So I'm a member of a defective subculture because I've seen men get into fistfights over slights?

Let's see...I've seen them happen during my time in the U.S. Navy. Oh yeah, and I've been to a few rowdy bars in my life. Actual adult men fighting over insults.

What a degenerate I am. :eyes:

BTW, assuming I did come from some "defective subculture" where violence was routine, it would likely be an environment I was born into and had little control over and a person would have to be a real fucking CLASSLESS clod to mock me for it, ya know? Right now, you are pretty much the personification of the snotty liberal elitist stereotype.

[Political Heretic]

93. Holy shit, the White Privilege is strong in this thread!

[Hello_Kitty]

100. Ain't it though?

I'm surprised it's ugly cousin, Male Privilege, isn't making a stronger showing. But, the thread is young.

[Hannah Bell]

107. yes, that must be it.

though the specific examples i gave were about mental retardation & diabetes.

but it's my white privilege talking, even then.

[Hello_Kitty]

117. Oh jesus fucking god! Is that what this poutrage is about?

You're still peeved because someone wanted you to refer to her as a "person with diabetes" instead of a "diabetic"? That was such an injustice to you? :nopity:

Get over yourself.

[Hannah Bell]

119. you're silly. do you always read your own script into one sentence?

if you wonder why people bitch about "political correctness," this is why.

[Hello_Kitty]

124. And if you wonder why a lot of people think liberals are pedantic elitists

Look in the mirror.

And other than on a few college campuses and some very liberal enclaves, I seriously doubt most people even encounter that much "PC" in their lives so the bitching about it tends to be way out of proportion to its actual occurence. That incident with the diabetic woman that you were so traumatized by took place in college. As are many of the other extreme examples on this thread of "PC" gone amok. College is a place where people explore ideas and (hopefully) learn a few things about how other people see the world.

[Hannah Bell]

205. no, it took place in graduate school. i was in my 40s, she in her 30s.

& i wasn't traumatized, i just thought she was being an idiot.

but your scenario suits your bias, so run with it.

[Hello_Kitty]

207. I made no assumption about your ages.

People of all ages go to college. My point that most of these supposed incidents of "PC" happen on college campuses stands. It's such a common mainstream meme that references to "PC" are practically ubiquitous in movies about college.

[Hannah Bell]

215. your relegation of pc to "college" & discussion of college being a place to explore ideas

& learn about the world says you did.

the language assumes inexperience with ideas, difference, & "the world".

[Hello_Kitty]

217. You can't do those things as an older person?

What were you doing in college then? :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

219. your phraseology speaks for itself; the implication is clear.

[Political Heretic]

123. It's not always about you, whoever you are

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

218. not always. but in *this* case, the comment was made about discussants in "this thread." so who

*was* it about, do you think?

[Lorien]

161. Indeed! nt

[U4ikLefty]

As a white male, I agree. If somone is offended by the term use to describe them, then I apologize

and use another term. It called manners & respect.

I guess I could get all pissed & tell them they are being PC, but that would just make me an asshole.

A good example is when I said my friend's sister was a "lesbian". She got offended and said she was "gay". I said I was sorry and called her gay from that day forward...no sweat!!!

[Political Heretic]

234. You've hit the nail squarely on the head and won the thread.

Well done.

[Number23]

233. Ain't it?? They're squealing like stuck pigs!

I thought the OP was right on. But I'm a black chick so what the hell would I know about PC?? :shrug:

[derby378]

118. The labels "African-American" and "Asian-American" are too broad

President Barack Obama has some Kenyan ancestry. The director of my department at the hospital traces his lineage to Nigeria. The Ethiopian restaurant down the street is run by - Ethiopian-Americans.

Maybe it comes from my experience with Alex Haley's Roots, but I don't think it's fair to label all peoples of one continent with a catch-all slogan, as though their diverse histories, civilizations, and cultures aren't even worth mentioning.

And if that makes me non-PC, so be it.

[hiphopnation]

125. this could have been written in 1995

her point's taken, it's just dated.

[Hello_Kitty]

128. Apparently it's not because people are still complaing about "PC"

Like it's a serious problem in their lives.

[hiphopnation]

132. i don't know people that still complain about the term

but maybe I'm out of touch. white men who see it as an encumbrance on their ability to "talk racist" or "sexist" or whatever "ist" they want to talk, well, I don't hang around that ilk, so I don't know and frankly don't care.

but you have to be able to face the fact that some pc language went so far as to be absurd and was thus easily mocked by any and all english speaking people. see: George Carlin

[Hannah Bell]

220. it could have been, & was, written in 1985, 1975, 1965, & probably before that too.

[Gold Metal Flake]

134. Hello_Kitty, as a result of your comments in this thread, I am...

...a fan.

[cobalt1999]

141. I have to line up behind George Carlin on this topic

On soft language and taking PC too far...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcTMlmPe7o

And this from his book...

Politically Correct Language

So, let me tell you how I handle some of these speech issues. First of all, I say "black." I say "black" because most black people prefer "black." I don't say "people of color." People of color sounds like something you see when you're on mushrooms. Besides, the use of people of color is dishonest. It means precisely the same as colored people. If you're not willing to say "colored people," you shouldn't be saying "people of color."

Besides, the whole idea of color is bullshit anyway. What should we call white people? "People of no color?" Isn't pink a color? In fact, white people are not really white at all, they're different shades of pink, olive, and beige. In other words, they're colored. And black people are rarely black. I see mostly different shades of brown and tan. In fact, some light-skinned black people are lighter than the darkest white people. Look how dark the people in India are. They're dark brown, but they're considered white people. What's going on here? May I see the color chart? "People of color" is an awkward, bullshit, liberal-guilt phrase that obscures meaning rather than enhancing it. Shall we call fat people, "people of size?"

By the way, I think the whole reason we're encouraged in this country to think of ourselves as "black and white" (instead of "pink and brown," which is what we are) is that black and white are complete opposites that cannot be reconciled. Black and white can never come together. Pink and brown, on the other hand, might just stand a chance of being blended, might just come together. Can't have that! Doesn't fit the plan.

I also don't say "African-American." I find it completely illogical, and furthermore it's confusing. Which part of Africa are we talking about? What about Egypt? Egypt is in Africa. Egyptians aren't black. They're like the people in India, they're dark brown white people. But they're Africans. So why wouldn't an Egyptian who becomes a U.S. citizen be an African-American? The same thing goes for the Republic of South Africa. Suppose a white racist from South Africa becomes an American citizen? Well, first of all he'd find plenty of company, but couldn't he also be called an African-American? It seems to me that a racist white South-African guy could come here and call himself African-American just to piss off black people. And, by the way, what about a black person born in South Africa who moves here and becomes a citizen? What is he? An African-South-African-American? Or a South-African-African-American?

Alright, back to this hemisphere. How about a black woman who is a citizen of Jamaica? According to P.C. doctrine, she's an African-Jamaican, right? But if she becomes a U.S. citizen, she's a Jamaican-American. And yet if one of these language crusaders saw her on the street, he'd think she was an African-American. Unless he knew her personally in which case he would have to decide between African-Jamaican-American and Jamaican-African-American.

Ya know? It's just so much liberal bullshit. Labels divide people. We need fewer labels, not more.

[Hello_Kitty]

144. Okay, I'm with George. Let's describe people as "pink" and "brown".

Works for me. I'm so fair-skinned I'm a translucent shade of pink.

:shrug:

[Lost in CT]

147. And I am brown... well beige.... nt

[Touchdown]

167. It depends on the time of year for me.

Off white in winter.
Beet Red in June
Tan in July through September.
Solid red after sex.:evilgrin:

[Hello_Kitty]

169. TMI, dude, really.

:puke:

[Touchdown]

176. Your avatar said worse in her day.

Hello Kitty playing innocent. Priceless.:rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

183. She was Bette Davis. You are a random douchewad on the internet.

Big difference.

[Touchdown]

185. If your going to use an epithet, get it right.

I'm the nephew of her publicist's hairdresser. So there!

[Hello_Kitty]

188. I'm her second cousin's wife's third cousin.

[Touchdown]

191. Janet is that you?

[hiphopnation]

145. Carlin nailed this topic

on more than one occasion in his career and started on it at least twenty years back (note to OP).

And he was absolutely right every time: No matter how well-intentioned politically correct speech and language is, ANY attempt at controlling language should be met with resistance (and almost always is, be it consciously or otherwise).

[Hannah Bell]

221. "Labels divide people." hear, hear. & that's precisely why so many of them are invented by the

ruling class.

[ColbertWatcher]

152. Excellent article. k+r

I like how the first commenter throws the word "liberal" in his complaint

"... the best critique of whiteboy liberal horseshit ever written."

Way to fail at reading comprehension, "Y. Carrington"!

[Touchdown]

165. This article is a load of shit!

'Nuff said. No circumlocutions needed.;)

[Hello_Kitty]

166. And yet you're still here babbling about it. eom

[Touchdown]

174. Why'd you say babbling? Is that a gay slur? Do you hate gay people?

You want to see us die? Be run over by 10 ton trucks? Shot between the eyes? Is that who you are?

[Hello_Kitty]

177. Oh so you're one of them?

Pitcher or catcher?

[Touchdown]

179. What do you want me to be?

[Hello_Kitty]

182. I want to know if its okay to use gay slurs around you.

Since you hate "PC" and all. And you called me a bitch. Maybe you think being a gay man makes it okay for you to be a misogynist. It doesn't.

[Touchdown]

184. Oh' that. See, I thought that since you wrote 30 or so insensitive posts

calling other people bitches, that it was appropriate to use them myself so that I can better relate to your primitive way of thinking.

My mistake.

[Hello_Kitty]

187. It was fairly clear I was (facetiously) making a point.

You, OTOH, called me a bitch in earnest. Judging from your other posts about "man-hating" and whatnot, I suspect it's a term that rolls off your tongue rather easily in everyday conversation.

[Touchdown]

190. I know. You are just lame at making the point.

... which is my point.

Admit that your article is a bad article, much less "The single best take down..." Not everybody has to like it. To insist we do, is PC.;)

[Hello_Kitty]

193. I don't have to admit anything just because you disagree with my opinion.

Why don't you admit you are acting like an arrogant putz today?

[Touchdown]

198. Because I'm not acting. I'm just pushing your buttons

[hiphopnation]

168. so is this thread

so, they go together quite nicely

DUzy anyone?

good popcorn thread though....a lot of thrashing about with no real point

[Touchdown]

189. I was eating a frozen pizza while reading/writing in it.

Got grease on my keyboard. I'm full.

[hiphopnation]

192. ...

:crazy:

it's like a car wreck -- just.........can't.......stop...............looking!!

i rather enjoy your handling of it, however.

[Hello_Kitty]

194. Try cooking it first. It tastes better that way. eom

[Touchdown]

197. I had Bette's maid cook it for me, Dearie.

[JackRiddler]

170. true enough, but the worst one of all is "conspiracy theory"

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. I think he's confusing insensitive with PC.

People with developmental disabilities don't want to called retarded because it is pejorative and hurtful. That's simply being sensitive.

PC, on the other hand is different. "Men are more competitive than women..." raises an eyebrow, until you finish the sentence with "...which explains why they more aggressive and violent". Phew! For a second there, I thought you were going to say something hurtful and insensitive!

On the other hand, if you finish the sentence with "...which is why they work longer hours and make more money.", then the tar and feathers are in ample supply.

In other words, PC'ness is fine with stereotypes, even grossly insulting ones provided they are consistent with the conventional wisdom.

[Hannah Bell]

222. yep.

[Lost in CT]

231. I think a nail has just met a head....

Great job and perfectly captures some of the inanities of that particular movement.

[Geek_Girl]

201. I always thought idea of people using the term PC just meant

They were upset because they couldn't act like a bunch of jackass bigots.

[Hannah Bell]

223. no, that's what it means to rush limbaugh.

[Hello_Kitty]

226. My observation of you earlier today was quite accurate.

You are the type of person who always has to be right.

Okay, you're right. Bye now. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

228. she says in post 226.

[noamnety]

230. I remember when this blog post first came out

If you had a 100 white men read it and 100 black women read it, you think there would be a significant difference in their reactions? :)