None of us have an ounce of xenophobia but what good are foreigners?

[pampango]

Poll question: None of us have an ounce of xenophobia but what good are foreigners?

Xenophobia is a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or are different from oneself, especially in the case of foreign people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

Especially since the immigration reform debates of 2007, I've noticed many posts here that express great antipathy (at best) towards foreigners whether they are Mexican immigrants, Chinese factory workers, or Indian service workers. There are many who resent foreign automobile companies (those in other industries as well) who locate in the US and hire American workers, but send their profits to their home country.

Today there are posts expressing resentment towards foreigners who start businesses here (such as Google and Intel) after entering the country as students and foreigners who attend college here and, while they pay top dollar and may strengthen colleges financially, take slots away from Americans,

This has left me wondering what the progressive view of foreigners is. What role should they play in our society and what value do we put on their welfare relative to that of our fellow Americans?

Most will probably have a some combination of the answers below, so please list your choices and explain.

[Turbineguy]

1. And they

can keep their fuckin' burritos too! And all that other furin shit!

[Uzybone]

2. There is quite a bit of xenophobia on DU

They usually like to hide it with some generic pro-union statements.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

6. Oh sure...

it's now people who believe in unions who are afraid of the foreigners. Paleeze.

That is something I want to see you explain.

[Uzybone]

10. Typical

I never said that but keep on lying.

[anigbrowl]

56. Logic fail. All ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks.

[Regret My New Name]

58. But they all taste like chicken...

The birds, not the foreigners.

[ogneopasno]

8. I wouldn't call it xenophobia.

I would call it "the strong dislike of an influx of people willing to work for less and for cash and employers willing to look the other way while they do, creating a self-propagating mess that can be overcome by well enforced labor laws, global organizing and strong unions."

Pro-union =/= xenophobic. I don't think you're saying that, but people might misunderstand.

[Uzybone]

13. No I'm definately not saying pro-union = xenophobia

I'm pro union myself 100%.

Its kind of like how the racist groups hide their views by using illegal immigration as a cover. Obviously not everyone who wants to enforce immigration laws is racist.

Xenophobes has found that complaining about foreigners taking our jobs is a nice cover. But clearly not everyone (only a small minority) who complains about foreigners taking our jobs is xenophobic.

[ogneopasno]

14. Unions often get a bad rap for "being anti-foreigner."

There is a fine line between the South Park "they tuk r jobz!" vs. what is actually happening, and it's hard to have a conversation about it without people jumping in saying "You're a crazy xenophobe and what if your ancestors hadn't been let into this country!"

Which I am *NOT* saying you were saying. I thank you for your clarification.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. Those who think an unlimited supply of labor can be organized

have a critical thinking skill deficit.

[eridani]

30. And it's kind of like how cheap labor advocates hide their views--

--by using cosmopolitan internationalism as a cover.

[rolltideroll]

34. Exactly

Well put man. The simple fact is that the disappearance of well paying jobs that do not require an advanced degree can be directly traced back to an influx of people ( any group or race)that allows itself to be exploited and will work for slave wages.It is simple economics, but people get scared they will be branded xenophobes and won't say the simple truth.It isn't even really the Mexican peoples fault. Anyone would go anywhere to provide for their family.It is the rich capitalists fault for exploiting them.

[TommyO]

37. So, there are no foreign-born people that belong to unions?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Since I have no Native American blood

that I can prove, that means I'm from 100% immigrant stock. How can I speak out against immigrants who come now? What if the same had been done against my ancestors?

I have no problem with immigrants coming here at all. What I do have a problem with is international corporations moving American jobs overseas where job conditions and salaries are poor. This isn't an anti-foreigner stand, either, because those overseas workers are being exploited and they shouldn't be.

[burythehatchet]

4. Kind of ironic is it not?

after the United States has pillaged the resources of countries all over the world in order to pay its' standard of living. So the question "what role should they play in oursociety" is something I read with mild amusement.

[sinkingfeeling]

5. I welcome everybody to the USA and hope to be welcomed in their home countrys as well. I classify

myself as a citizen of the world.

[pampango]

25. How did you avoid getting bitten by the "nationalism" bug?

:)

I've seen the term "citizen of the world" used here as an epithet to describe someone who does not adequately prioritize the welfare of Americans relative to the welfare of all people.

[sinkingfeeling]

33. Lots of trael, reading, and time to realize that people are people all over the world.

[Posteritatis]

27. Greetings, fellow Earthian! (nt)

[stray cat]

7. How many americans are as competent as foreigners in technical areas

involving physical sciences like engineers and computer science? Also, the ones I have met actually believe in working for what they get versus acting entitled.

[eridani]

28. The ones who are required to train their foreign replacements sure the fuck are n/t

[baldguy]

9. Xenophobia is a tool used by the ruling overclass to keep the workers distracted.

They get us to scapegoat The Other - be it immigrants, minorities, the poor, gays, etc etc - so that they can continue to steal from us.

Aside from that, if I've got money to spend for a service or a product I'd rather employ my neighbor than someone on the other side of the planet. 99% of the time the corporatocracy makes that impossible.

[denem]

11. Are white english speaking Christians OK?

Xenophobia is one word for it.

[burythehatchet]

18. only Protestants

[TahitiNut]

12. Well, everyone knows that a working class without the vote is great for democracy.

Who need borders? After all, it's not as though political self-determination depends on them. :shrug:

[YOY]

15. No problem with immigrants or anyone...just with H1-B Visas.

Most certainly not with their holders but those who planned them out are fools (on our end.) I don't care if a certain Democratic president looks bad by me saying that either.

Total white collar "guest-worker" bullshit. We have far too many contracting for us under H1-Bs when there have to be American citizens who need those jobs direly in these times. There are absolutely are Americans who could do these jobs.

Most of the time citizenship is not a goal either from personal experience.

[musette_sf]

62. agreed

[KG]

16. if both parties hadn't spent the last 30 yrs exporting americas industrial capacity, there'd be

plenty of good paying jobs for all.

[anonymous171]

17. Depends. Unskilled Foreign Labor < Skilled Foreign Labor < American Labor

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. It's not yet time for Soylent Green.

I keed.

US policy should assist foreigners to obtain robust human rights in their native country.

If I'm going to allow them to be guests in my country, there has to be something in it for me. Their presence should improve my quality of life in some measurable way.

Our economy has not grown fast enough in the last decade to employ the kids born here. Until our economy is throttled by labor shortages, work visas should be curtailed. Given the universal refrain of the inadequate education of american students, a greater proportion of college students should be US citizens.

[MattBaggins]

35. You get the benefit of their presence

All the cheap disposable plastic goods at suxmart.

[RB TexLa]

21. Nationalism is a mental illness and should be treated as such.

[No.23]

22. You wouldn't have to be related to Albert Einstein, would you?

"Nationalism is an infantile disease."

Another favorite quote of his is:

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

[pampango]

23. It is so entrenched and accepted now that it is hard to imagine any "treatment" that

would lead to people dealing with each other without regard to where they were born.

We have made great progress at accepting the societal goal (if not yet the reality) of treating people equitably irrespective of their race, gender, age, sexual orientation, and ethnicity, but not so much with regard to the nationality they were born with.

[Laelth]

24. As the President said yesterday, "We are a nation of immigrants."

What's not to like about immigrants?

:dem:

-Laelth

[pampango]

26. Shameless bump for the evening crowd. n/t

[Dr Fate]

29. It's pronounced "fur-ners", BTW. n/t

n/t

[annabanana]

31. "What good are foreigners"??

There is no downside to getting to know different kinds of people. Every new perspective on the world enriches.

[noamnety]

32. I hang onto the radical notion that they are human.

I think they are entitled to the same rights as me.

I don't think it's good enough to say "they can starve and drink contaminated water and pee in open gutters cause that's the conditions they were born into in their country, but I'm compassionate so I'll write a letter or something encouraging them to fight for rights in their own country. They can't come here - that might endanger my own privilege."

[MattBaggins]

36. So all of us starving and peeing in gutters

would be a better choice? Are you one of those slave worker fans that disguises their motives by calling folks who want to build secure systems as part of globalization; racists?

[pampango]

40. DU'ers who don't agree with you are not necessarily "slave labor fans".

"I hang onto the radical notion that they are human. I think they are entitled to the same rights as me."

I don't see that as an expression of a sentiment that is not progressive.

Would the poster you were responding to be justified to ask you, "Are you one of those racist xenophobes that disguises their motives by calling folks who support immigration and trade, slave labor fans? I dont' think that poster would be justified to do that, because he/she doesn't know your motivation anymore than you know his/hers.

[MattBaggins]

41. But it is fine to label

people who don't think just opening our borders would be good for anyone except Wallstreet; as racists.

Goose meet Gander.

[pampango]

42. No, and I said as much.

"I don't think that poster would be justified to do that , because he/she doesn't know your motivation anymore than you know his/hers."

We can argue our positions without calling each other "racist xenophobes" or "slave labor fans". Progressives should be able to discuss policy alternatives without calling each other names. Let's leave that to the freepers, who probably have difficulty carrying on a policy discussion anyway.

[MattBaggins]

43. Stop labeling me

I am a Liberal not a Progressive.

[pampango]

44. And I was the one opposing labeling other DU posters. Color me embarrassed.

I hope you would agree with me, however, that Liberals "should be able to discuss policy alternatives without calling each other names."

[noamnety]

45. That's certainly an interesting interpretation.

"I think they are entitled to the same rights as me" is not the same as "I think none of us deserve any rights."

When women were starting to move into the workforce in greater numbers, there were men who were pissed off because they had families to support, and they knew the women were going to take their jobs. In some cases, women did take their jobs (and got paid less).

How do you feel about that?

[MattBaggins]

47. No problem at all with it

as long as the rules are the same and there is an equal starting point. I do not however have to accept some nonsense that we should have open border guest worker programs. If they need an H1-B visa to bring over some workers then they should have to hire them at the prevailing wage for that job and pay the same taxes on those emplyees as they would any other. Offer them citizenship after six months or a year if they are so important. Trying to shove down our throats that we are bigots if we don't fall for the silliness of "guest worker" and H1-B visa programs.

[noamnety]

49. "and there is an equal starting point."

Can you honestly say someone born in the US and someone born in Haiti have equal starting points in life?

[MattBaggins]

50. You know what I meant

stop the silly melodrama

[noamnety]

51. Oh, I understood EXACTLY what you meant.

"We Americans are entitled to certain privileges as our birthright. Others are entitled to less privileges in life because of where they were born. Let's pretend those circumstances and privileges are equal, so we can claim that a child who is born into poverty and being fed on dried clay has the same rights as a child born into an American middle class family. We can justify that glaring inequity by focusing on the fact that our immigration policies are the same."

Privilege reproduces itself in part because those with privilege feel they have the right to control the conversation itself, and declare what part of reality must remain unspoken and invisible, and which parts need to be out in the light. 99 times out of 100, the parts they demand we focus on are the parts that uphold their privilege, and the parts they feel are out of bounds to discuss are the parts that cast a light on injustices.

[MattBaggins]

52. Well you insist on putting words in my mouth

and motives that I don't have.

You will continue to speak for me regardless of what I say or feel so let's stop wasting each others time and end this discussion.

Have a nice day.

[noamnety]

53. We both know they aren't at equal starting points.

Other than upholding privilege I can't find a reason for you to refuse to acknowledge that as a critical part of the discussion - especially when you brought it up as your criteria for deciding whether our policies are just.

[Vinnie From Indy]

38. What a thoroughly silly post!

"None of us have an ounce of xenophobia but what good are foreigners?"

None of us have an ounce of racism but what good are African-Americans?
None of us have an ounce of anti-semitism but what good are Jews?

It is mildly amusing that the entire framing of the question marks the OP as a xenophobe.

Also, you can get mandatory minimums for carrying around more than 10 ounces of xenophobia!

[saltpoint]

39. I'd like to seize this occasion if I may to suggest that John Bolton is

a remorseless son-of-a-bitch.

Thank you.

[treestar]

46. It is amazing how you can find the sentiment that the Indians and

Chinese are stealing our jobs, but no remorse from stealing European or Japanese jobs.

Keeping immigrants out seems to be physically impossible. And you know what, whenever Americans think they need to migrate to Canada or somewhere, you hear the sentiment as if they think they have the absolute right to go wherever they want to go.

The only answer is a level playing field for all. Capital moves across borders at will and pits xenophobics against each other so that they will never get together and fight the capitalist together.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. For What It's Worth, Nothing You Described Is Xenophobia.

Isolationism maybe. Xenophobia, no.

[pampango]

55. Interesting, but how about this analogy?

Xenophobia is to isolationism AS racism is to segregation. (You can have the latter without the former, but they go together more often than not.)

It may be possible to be an isolationist without being xenophobic, if one believes that it makes their life better (more jobs, higher pay) without feeling any fear of or hatred for foreigners. But then is it possible to believe that segregation makes life better because it keeps other races from competing with you for jobs, houses, etc., without actually feeling any fear of or hatred toward other races? Many whites living in the suburbs accept de facto segregation, presumably because they believe it makes their lives better, and complain loudly when "low-income housing" is proposed in their town or neighborhood.

(I trust that no one on DU believes that segregation is a moral or viable government policy. I only present it as a contrast in our discussion of xenophobia and isolationism.)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. Poor Analogy.

And for the record, the very link you posted, the one to wikipedia, directly states that comparing such events to xenophobia would be inaccurate. Your own OP reference refutes you.

[pampango]

59. Why is the analogy poor? n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. Ughhh.

Even your own damn wiki link said you're inaccurate. Get a grip.

[pampango]

63. Ohhhh.

For the sake of argument I'll accept your criticism of my take on the wiki link. Do you wish to address the validity of my analogy or do you prefer not to address that in light of my "inaccuracy"? If not, that's fine. We can let the wiki link be the end of the discussion.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

54. A good way to tackle illegal immigration is to make legal immigration easier.

There are clearly both benefits and costs to a country of allowing immigration.

Legal immigration is strictly better for a country than illegal immigration - you can keep criminals etc out better, you don't create a populace of people who don't want to contact the police and are thus a fertile breeding ground for crime, the state gets more taxes, the immigrants can claim benefits, you can keep records of people and so on.

Making legal immigration easier won't end illegal immigration, but it would reduce the temptation; I think it would also ethically justify stricter measures preventing illegal immigration than can be justified when legal immigration is very hard, but that's more controversial.

Offering an amnesty to a significant fraction of those illegal immigrants already in the US would make it both easier and more ethical to identify and deport those who didn't apply or were turned down (criminals etc).

[trudyco]

60. I don't know how to vote! Fair Trade Yes. Limit immigration Yes.

Protect a percentage of jobs that actually make things in this country Yes. Limit student visas of foreigners and start improving schools so there is no temptation to claim foreign students are "better students" Yes.

But don't completely exclude student visas/work visas. We've always thrived on the melting pot - just in moderation. Crack down on employers who hire illegal immigrants. Figure out how big you want the population to be increasing each year (if any) and stick to your guns. Not literally. All immigration should be of the legal kind.

Encourage (tax breaks? Tariffs? Preference in government contracts?) companies to keep a percentage of jobs in an industry here. Have the government start investing in basic research again.

Make products here that are of higher quality than the Chinese shit. How hard can it be? I'm so sick of Chinese made junk (and touted as high end).

So, what to vote? what to vote?