Is it fair?

[Fresh_Start]

I've read decidedly non-liberal views on DU.

The auto companies ought to die, they produce crap.
The wall streeters deserve to be out on the street, they caused this.
The insurance companies ought to die and turn to dust and blow away in the wind.

Twice in my career, I've been caught working for a company which had a major catastrophe.
Very probably only 1% or less of the employees of that company had a role in making the decisions which resulted in disaster.
The other 99% of the employees weren't at all involved in the decisions.
The majority of the employees didn't even participate in the processes which contributed to the failures.

Why is it okay to wish the worse for all of the employees and their families?
Is it fair?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. Yes.

[Fresh_Start]

2. that's certainly a fair

but blaming other victims is not

[angstlessk]

8. funny how 'fair' has been flipped on it's head..used to be it aint fair to the working

stiffs..now suddenly the rich bitches are crying 'unfair'..yes..FAIR..the place you go to have your pig judged!

[Fresh_Start]

11. there are plenty of working stiffs at the those companies

the number of "RICH" people are in the minority in those companies.
What do you think a bank teller earns; do you think she is rich?

[Mike 03]

3. I'm with you, only I don't think of these as "Liberal" or "Non-Liberal" but just humane or inhumane

comments.

Rec.

[NaturalHigh]

4. You've hit on the saddest part of this whole mess.

So many people have been hurt by the greed and incompetence of a few. Most of the people who work for these companies just want to take care of their families.

[Romulox]

5. Er, what about the TAXPAYERS? Is propping up a failed company "fair" to them? nt

[Fresh_Start]

9. I wasn't talking about propping up the failed companies

I was talking about blaming the other victims.

Its bad enough that your employment disappears without people blaming you for problems you didn't contribute to.

[countingbluecars]

10. All those employees are taxpayers too. n/t

[Romulox]

12. Right, but most taxpayers aren't getting a bailout from taxpayer dollars... nt

[JerseygirlCT]

6. No, in many cases, it's not fair

BUT... business is not fair. That's not to say wishing people ill is good. But there's no guarantee, either, that the company you work for will behave. It's always a risk.

So, your company's in the tank? Say goodbye to those bonuses. Or possibly your job. And don't expect that the company will be shedding any tears over that - or the people running it, either.

Which all sucks, but it's the way it is.

[Mike 03]

7. One of the things I've done for a living is write about the demise of corporations,

and the casualties are virtually never at the top managerial level. These guys survive and thrive, no matter what. It's the employees. It's the bank branch managers, the bank tellers, the insurance agents, the car dealers...

[Fresh_Start]

29. thats certainly true

even after they crash and burn a company, they move on to another company.
I don't know how many of them are serial destroyers.
I can't recall having read any study about it.

But at the bottom, the jobs are gone.
The health insurance is gone.
The self-worth is destroyed.
And some never recover.

[specimenfred1984]

13. You mean other than all the lies they told and lived?

Their good-German attitudes, their "f-you consumer go somewhere else if you don't like it" attitude, their BS excuse that "I need to put food on the table" when they know goddamn well they are working for criminals?

Well other than that, nah, let's just forgive the very people who ripped us all off so it can happen all over again! Who needs to remember how any of it happened anyway?

[Fresh_Start]

15. Have you ever worked in a large company?

People on one floor don't even know what people on the next floor are doing, nevermind what people in another department halfway across the country are doing.

Very few people are in the position to make those type of decisions. And an even smaller number of people are allowed to talk to the press or public.

Personally I think there are more liars on internet boards than in the corporate world.
How many people were participating in Enron fraud? What percent of the Enron employee base was it?

[stillcool]

23. You want to string up 100,000 employee's?

because they are 'tainted' by working at AIG? I guess that is the American way..kill them all!!

[Fresh_Start]

25. more creating "Good German" thought process in action

first we must make the average German see them as less than human

[stillcool]

30. It's scary to see how easy it is..

so many groups to hate..I can't choose!

[Fresh_Start]

31. I'd vote for self-loathing

its probably less destructive for society as a whole...

[stillcool]

32. Nah..I've got that covered..

I went to Catholic School.

[Fresh_Start]

33. me too

but it also made we worry about the poor people who didn't have enough to eat who would starve if I threw away my green beans instead of eating them.

[stillcool]

14. Guilt by association..no matter how...

far removed. Discrimination. Hanging the sins of one, on all. All very popular..but you have to admit the media taught 'we the people' well.

[Fresh_Start]

38. do we even realize we're doing it anymore?

I saw DU'ers calling out autoworkers because they earned 100K.

Are we so envious of others that we need to turn on each other over things neither has control over?

[stillcool]

40. Someone once told me ...

that what I see in others is inherent in myself...and I said..what an awful thing to say!! I think it all comes down to fear..afraid you're not going to get your piece of the pie, or afraid someone is going to take your pie away from you. But the lack of compassion...I don't know. No Self-It-Seems.. Dead inside.

[annabanana]

16. define "liberal".. What does the word mean to YOU?. . . n/t

[Fresh_Start]

17. its like pornography

its in the eye of the beholder.

Think about what the GOP said about Katrina victims, that is the opposite of liberal.

[KansDem]

18. The problem is the 1% who make the decisions want us to believe they're the "best and brightest"

...and more often than not, that's not the case.

Currently, I'm in an organization that's run by a few individuals who make all the decisions. And many of the those decisions tend to lack depth and foresight.

I'm somewhat "safe" as far as my employment goes, but I'm actively looking for another position as the "best and brightest" in this organization has made my job increasing intolerable.

It's definitely "top down" management, but they could learn a few things by listening to their employees. Perhaps if CorpAmerica had done the same, we wouldn't be in this mess now...

[Fresh_Start]

19. there was a study about leadership

which basically said that the loudest voices are looked on as leaders.

Not the best.
Not the brightest.

The ones who opened their mouths and spoke alot.
Even if they were wrong.
Even if they were repeating someone else's ideas.

Rather matches my personal experience.
How about yours?

[KansDem]

28. I've often stood in silence and watched as certain incompetent individuals rose to the top here...

But, maybe I should have been shouting.

It's incredible. Stupid decisions affecting me and my colleagues are made by these brainless wonders and we're the last ones to know about it...

on edit: I don't know if this matters, but these folks also tend to dress somewhat outlandishly, with conscious adherence to stylish trends...

[Spike89]

20. non-liberal?

I think it can be very liberal (or very conservative) to advocate for big changes. There is a huge difference between advocating for a single-payer health system (which would probably severely diminish the health insurance industry) and advocating that everyone working in insurance lose their jobs. The auto companies may or may not deserve to die, but because I may see them as failed companies doesn't mean I blame the workers. I believe american workers can certainly build a great car, but the question is can GM (Ford or Chrysler) management enable them to do so?

There was nothing liberal or conservative about buggy whip workers losing their jobs. There is nothing liberal or conservative about workers losing their jobs when management screws up (or the market changes). That is simply the way things are (and would be in a socialist or corporatist world). The difference is that liberals will fight to take care of those displaced workers through social programs, retraining, and fair labor laws.

[Fresh_Start]

22. non-liberal

as in blame the victim.

For example, she was asking to be raped, she dressed too slutty

[TahitiNut]

21. One word: Enron.

:shrug:

[Fresh_Start]

24. don't understand

Enron screwed over millions of consumers and the majority of their employees.
But the people participating in the fraud was less than 100 (the trading desk plus senior management)

[The Straight Story]

34. hey now, I worked there

A lowly computer tech and had nothing to do with what went on. It is not like they sent us secret messages about how they were screwing over people :)

[girl gone mad]

26. What does fair have to do with it?

It looks to me like you are building a straw man.

[Fresh_Start]

27. certainly not trying to build a strawman

just trying to sensitize DUers.

Seen enough blame other victims going on that I don't like it.

Its really not much different than bashing red-staters for what their elected official do or
bashing Christians because there are irrational Christians or
blaming Catholics because the Pope pushes some aberrant view

[Two Americas]

35. no worries

The "liberals" in the government will be first and foremost protecting the financial industry, Wall Street, the insurance industry, the biotech industry, the weapons industry, the pharmaceutical industry and in general advancing the interests and desires of the most wealthy people. They were a little reluctant to protect the auto industry, because that might also help union workers.

That is because they agree with many "liberals" here who believe that by helping the wealthy, benefits will trickle down to the rest of us, and that what is good for big business is good for America. They also agree with the "liberals" here that "capital creates jobs" and that if we do not give the wealthy people what they want, they will throw us all out of work and then won't we all be sorry.

So your "liberal" values of siding with management, placing capital over labor and profits over people, are not threatened.


...

[Fresh_Start]

36. where do you get the wrong idea that I side with management?

I'm not defending management.
I'm defending the workers.

Maybe you think that these companies are democracies where every employee has an equal voice?

Its one thing for the companies to fail.
Its another thing for the rank and file to be blamed equally for the failure.

[Two Americas]

37. don't know

Don't know where you stand.

If you agree with what I said, then that would mean we agree.

[Fresh_Start]

39. I'm probably to the left of you

I think Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company
which effectively stated that companies have the same rights as living persons under the Constitution created most of the problem of corporatism which is ruining not only our country but most countries around the globe.

I think the entire corporate legal structure should be abolished.
It allows great abuse with no accountability.

[Two Americas]

41. that is fine

Your OP didn't make that clear. (wasn't clear to me I should say)

To the Left of me? That would be pretty difficult.


...

[Fresh_Start]

42. I'll take blame for not being clear enough

but I certainly asked is it fair to blame all the employees when the vast majority of them had nothing to do with the problem.

The willingness of DU to dump on people is appalling.
There is no stopping to think whether or not the person contributed to the problem.

The autoworkers produced crappy cars, tough luck on them.
The 'wall steeters' who apparently are any people who worked for any financial service organization created this mess.
My aunt the bank teller is getting crap: the biggest decision she's ever had to make at work was which bet to take in the office superbowl lottery.

Personally I started in a union shop and have always made every attempt to support union workers, American workers.
I know that we are all interconnected and my community is worse if people lose their business, jobs or homes.
I don't get any satifaction out of their misery.
I worry for them and their families especially their children.

[Two Americas]

43. agree completely

Well said. Thanks. I am in complete agreement.

[obiwan]

44. I don't wish the worst for anyone.

However, part of living in a democracy is the understanding that it is YOUR CHOICE to work at a particular company. People who bring down a company are BAD, no doubt about it, but they are NOT responsible for your well being.

Not pretty, but then again the real world sometimes isn't pretty either.

I am a liberal. Very liberal. But similar things happened to me during the course of my career several times. It's not right or fair but it happens. Get used to it or find a perfect job.