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we have to admit that,as liberals,we do come up with stupid ideas now and then.

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yorgatron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 02:12 AM
Original message
we have to admit that,as liberals,we do come up with stupid ideas now and then.
but our ideas don't kill thousands of people.
or steal billions of dollars.
or lose thousands of jobs.
or cause huge numbers of people to end up homeless,or maimed,or with PTSD.
or make poeople smuggle drugs going one way,and take guns the other way.
or...

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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Vietnam . . .
just saying . . .
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. Dumping the Shah of Iran and making way for Ayatollah Khomeini .
Savak got replaced by even worse human rights abuses and helped Jimmy Carter lose his second term election bid to Ronald Reagan.


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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. not to mention funding the mujahedeen
The enemy of your enemy isn't always your friend.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. We "dumped" the Shah?
He was overthown in an uprising.

The only reason he was in power in the first place was because of policy decisions made by conservatives.

A stable democracy would have been preferable but that wasn't acceptable to oil execs
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. The Carter Adminstration was involved in pressing the Shah to be less authoritarian re
those engaged in attempts to overthrow his regime., The Shah was intent on modernizing and westernizing Iran. Imprisonment and torture of political opponents were one of many issues. Religious reactionaries opposed the modernization, which they saw as a threat to their power. They were especially strong outside Teheran . Khomeini was one of their leaders.

Many liberal religious groups in the US which were active against the Vietnam War were also active in pressuring Carter to continue pressing the Shah on human rights violations. I believe the Shah partly listened to Carter, just as he listened to presidents before Carter. Organizations such as Clergy and Laity Concerned About the War were very much involved in opposing the Shah and the human rights violations there.

Western governments have a long history of interference in Iran as a matter of foreign policy. and it did not change with the Carter administration; What changed was the emphasis on human rights and respect for religious/political movements within Iran. The Shah, I believe, considered Carter naive and ignorant of the powers at play within Iran but he partly listened to Carter, just as he followed dictates of presidents before Carter. He was dependent upon the West.

Carter's human rights initiatives were a great and meaningful change but we were not understanding Iran as Iran-we were looking at the country through the lens of our own church/state stances and beliefs. We did not understanding religious fundamentalism in Iran and the power of the ayatollahs or their commitment to violence.

It fostered a belief on our part that since the Shah was bad re human rights, his opposers must be good or better than he. Either/or thinking.

Khomeini was in exile first in Iraq and later in Paris, where westerners opposed to the Shah's regime had access. Most people had no idea that he would be a much more brutal and reactionary ruler than the Shah and would total destroy the nascent women's rights movement that was semi-protected under the Shah.

Upon the Ayatollah's triumphant return to Iran, many in US who promoted human rights for Iran praised Khomeini, or cautioned that he should be given a chance. However, Khomeini wasted no time in executing his enemies. He reversed the steps taken toward modernization, turned a generation of teenaged girls into baby-making machines to bear sons to serve in a war machine where the sons became human sacrifices to a warped theocratic dictator.

The people of Iran did not win their freedom;the freedom-hating supporter of the dictatorial ayatollahs won Iran

I consider the Carter administration's foreign policy stance to have been a break from the previous administrations of Nixon and Ford and as having influenced the Shah to initiate some reforms. But I think the policy was not well thought out and backfired on Carter--resulting in the coming to power of Ronald Reagan.

In terms of a stable democracy--achieving that in Iran may have had a chance but was not going to happen without an incredibly strong American commitment to opposing both the tactics of the Shah and the Ayatollahs--it would require a level of meddling in Iran that I don't believe most Carter supporters would tolerate so soon after Vietnam.

I think essentially Carter dumped the Shah by withdrawing support, pressuring him to institute human rights reforms while not pressuring the religion-based opposition, and mistakenly trusting religion as an engine of human rights reform.


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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. "Welfare Reform"
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. You don't think the new TARP plan will "steal" billions of dollars from the treasury?
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. Sorry to say, the above posters are right. We've made some bad mistakes too...
:-(

It's just human nature, and must be guarded against.

Nonetheless, George W. Bush was still the Worst President Ever by a country mile.

Hekate


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Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. no doubt about that
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. They do all those things and more.
NAFTA and media monopolies come to mind.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Except those were the ideas of a moderate, not a liberal.
Edited on Thu Mar-26-09 06:52 AM by HughBeaumont
Bill Clinton was no economic progressive, not even to this day.

NAFTA wasn't even really his idea, but he did sign it. Therefore, he gets no pass.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
9. Conservatism means
taking credit for the stuff that worked in the past ... especially when, compared to "now", the ideas were considered "liberal" ...

ya think that abolishing slavery was a "conservative" idea? The bible had plenty of references to supporting slavery ...

and after the last administration, the "conservatives" were all for following a near-dictatorship, and all for being behind 100% the "ruler" ...
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
11. Clinton's sanctions against Iraq killed hundreds of thousands of children. n/t

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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. excess vs. failure
I wrote soon after the election that someone should notice that progressives are typically accused of excess, where as conservatives are typically described in terms of failure. One needs moderation, one needs elimination. I'd rather be the former.
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