Blue Cross of Michigan to eliminate coverage of gender reassignment surgery

[ccharles000]

As companies move toward inclusive coverage, Blue Cross of Michigan runs the other way (Michigan Messenger):
A broad coalition of organizations, including the American Civil Liberties Union, The National Association of Social Workers, Transgender Michigan and others, are condemning a move by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan to eliminate coverage for gender reassignment surgery. The new entity calls itself The Michigan Coalition for Gender Equality.
"We are concerned that BCBSM underestimates the profound impact of these medically necessary procedures," said André Wilson of MCGE. "Gender reassignment surgeries can be a critical part of the transition process and these new exclusions will place many transgender individuals and their families at real risk."

The change was approved in Feb. says Jason Moon, a spokesman for the Office of Financial and Insurance Regulation. He called the change "unfortunate," but noted the law did not define gender reassignment surgery as a necessary medical care area. Moon said such areas were things like breast cancer and diabetes.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com

[moez]

1. "medically necessary procedures"?

hmmmmm.....

[ccharles000]

2. kick

[Smith_3]

3. Transgendering is something that is hard for me to grasp.

If I had a kid that wanted to be transgendered I think I would try my best to talk him/her out of it. I have no problem at all with homosexuality (I know, some here will now lecture me on how these two things have nothing to do with each other), but to undergo a series of permanently altering surgeries voluntarily. Eeesh. I know it is a progressive stance to say insurance should cover this because Cuba does it. But still. Hey. Why don't people just dress up as the other gender and be a homosexual? Why choose to have body parts amputated instead? I guess I must sound like a conservative on this, so flame me if you must.

[Bluenorthwest]

4. Not sounding conservative

just ignorant and bigoted. Very much so. You should find a library or use Google and do some reading. Or remain silent. One of the most offensive things I have ever read on this board, just so you know.

[NorthernSpy]

7. Guess what? Not everyone on the Left agrees with you.

Shocking, I know.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. It is not about agreement,

it is about facts. Telling transexual people they should cross dress and be gay is non factual idiocy. You are free to hold whatever prejudices you wish, but that still will not turn a transexual into a transevstite homosexual to please those prejudices.
You do not have enough facts in line to agree with me or not agree with me. You would need to educate yourself in order to have an opinion, rahter than a mere prejudice.

[AB_Positive]

43. *cough*

BEING transgendered I found the comment to be... well, stupid. Ignorant even... dunno about bigoted because there doesn't seem to be any actualy *hatred*. Just stupidity.

Gender Dysphoria is classified as a birth defect of the body. The brain has for major 'genders' that it can form in the womb. Male, Female, Not Male, Not Female. The latter two are more with androgyny, Intersexed and other assorted confusing things. For this exercise we'll stick with my confusing thing and just work with Male and Female brains.

The brain forms first. Using myself as an example:

Brain formed female.

Female brain tells pituitary to send out an estrogen rush, creating a female body.

Pituitary cocks the entire process, sending out a testosterone rush.

One minor glitch, a lifetime of confusing issues to work with.

Medically classified as a birth defect of the *body* not brain, the only actual solution is to modify the body to fix the problem. Consider someone born with a hare-lip and wants it corrected, would you tell them not to do so?

And for the record, crossdressing and "being gay" doesn't work for me either since I'm attracted to the gender I'll become. I'm actually leaving straight-dom to enter the land of being a lesbian. THAT is why you can't make it simpler through better stupidity, because it doesn't work. Much like Shadow of the Beast on an Atari ST.

(ahahahaha, waiting for a British person to get that and yell at me)

[Starry Messenger]

182. Welcome to DU, AB_Positive!

:)

[Jersey Devil]

184. Thanks for the explanation and welcome to DU

I didn't think the statement was bigoted either. Just like any other important issue, those not directly affected by it probably don't give it that much attention, thought or study and thus the ignorance. A lot of times people have to realize that unless others walk in the same shoes they might not fully comprehend just what things are all about.

[Maven]

41. Not everyone on the left knows what the fuck they're talking about either.

Especially when it comes to GLBT and trans people.

:hi:

[NorthernSpy]

48. Thing is, there's open-minded...

... and then there's just plain gullible.



:hi:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

55. And then there's flat out bigotry

[fascisthunter]

133. to expect Transexuals to conform to your bigotry is not surprising

[Smith_3]

9. For the record: I would not "refuse to hire" a person that was transgendered.

Nor would I have a problem with it if a transgendered person was the teacher of my child or something similar.
I'm against unnecessary plastic surgeries for the same reasons as the above states. Shit I wouldn't even have any part of my body pierced or tatooed. I just think one should be glad the body works as it does without shooting additional holes into it or cutting parts off on purpose.

[NorthernSpy]

12. That really should go without saying...

But it's good that you said it, Smith_3, because sometimes in discussions like this, people tend to leap to conclusions.


It's not about disliking people who want to change their sex, or about denying them employment, or anything like that.

It's about disagreeing with the assumption that we can surgically or medically change a person's sex, or that we should try to.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. To take a kinder tack with you

Let me refer to your statment that transgenderism is difficult for you to grasp, and offer that perhaps that is more true than you think. It is not an easy subject for many people, so don't feel badly if you don't fully understand at once. On the other hand, listen to your admission that you do not grasp it, and consider attempting to understand, via the method most useful-go forth into the world, meet people who are transexual, and speak with them about it. Trust me, they are used to dealing carefully with those who are new to their world, and they will not bite you for asking questions.
Here's a clue: those surgeries are not un needed surgeries. Those surgeries are vital to the ongoing happiness and life of transexual people. Sure, that is something some of us have to learn about, for it is not my life, nor yours. So for one thing, how is it our business at all? I have known several transexual people, all through their transitions, and I am here to tell you that I myself did not really understand their lives until I saw one of my oldest and dearest frineds simply happy for the first time ever.
So I'd say try to learn a few things. If it matters so much to you, go meet people and do some talking. You don't get it. Nor did I. Now I do. The truth will make you free. Prejudice and the compulsion to impose your standards onto others will not. The fact that you do not understand will not change another person. So what's the point? Understanding, on the other hand, can change you, and that is what life is all about, getting wiser and more loving of our fellow humans, in all the human condidtions.

[Smith_3]

209. By the way:

I didn't even state anywhere that I think insurance should not cover it. Some people here apparently made that assumption. I only said I don't understand it. People here have suggested that it is not elective. But I would go so far as to say, even if it was elective I wouldn't have a problem with the health insurance companies paying for it. I also think health insurance should cover birth control, which is elective.

[tonysam]

23. Yep. Job Opportunities Aren't the Same As Voluntary Surgery.

There is a reason insurance companies don't pay for elective surgery or for cosmetic surgery. "Reassignment surgery" is elective.

[FreeState]

190. "Reassignment surgery" is elective. BS

Do you know any transgendered people? Its not elective - for far to many its surgery or suicide.

[Vanje]

30. If you are against gender altering surgery

then , by all means, you should not have it!

[Lance_Boyle]

33. or be forced to pay for others to have it. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

42. There's lots of things some bigots are against

We shouldn't let them decide who deserves medical care.

[tigereye]

90. just because folks don't understand things and ask questions about them

doesn't make them bigots.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

116. I don't see many people trying to understand things or asking questions in this thread

[NorthernSpy]

97. Bigotry = not agreeing with you?

Go figure.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

115. Transphobia is bigotry

If the shoe fits...

[NorthernSpy]

119. I don't agree with you.

That does not mean that I'm either fearful or hateful.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

124. Discriminating against transpeople is transphobia

Just like discriminating against gay people is homophobia.

Not hard to understand.

[NorthernSpy]

129. Except that refusing to give a physically-normal person an elective castration, vaginoplasty...

... and boob job is not unwarranted discrimination.

[LeftHander]

104. you see the body "doesn't work".....body and mind

Being female in mind and spirit creates conflict in oneself. The conflict of creating a persona to match the gender expectations of society results in all sort of maladies. The conflict ultimately leads to depression, drug and alcohol abuse, physical abuse and the all consequences that come.

What is frustrating is that relatively inexpensive treatment that makes a huge difference is denied. It is not surgical...only a small percentage of transgender people actually go all the way and transition completely. For many...access to Hormone treatment and social acceptance is more than enough to live happily.

It is difficult to understand for many but no understanding is needed. Just accept that there are people who just wish access to proper health care.

The AMA is very clear on treatment and care of transsexuals.

Insurance companies deny treatment because it decisions are made based on profit not care.

[tigereye]

189. thanks for a reasonable explanation!

[arcadian]

27. I know that some people suffer from gender dysphoria and I know the facts.

Having said that, I think that a lot people are having this surgery on a whim or for merely the wrong reasons. I speak from experience because my friend had the surgery. Why is it that %80 of the surgeries are male to female? Shouldn't it be more around %50?

I think a lot of these surgeries are performed on sexual fetishists who have let things get too out of hand. My friend for example got DD sized breast implants and talked about wanting to be "stripper hot". He was a 40 year old man who had been pumped up on anti-depressants for more than half of his life. He had grown up poor and ashamed of himself. He also excelled at anything that he set his mind to. He was a master at manipulating people. He hated himself.

It took him two years to transition. From everybody around him having not heard anything about this to getting SRS surgery. Two years. He himself said he didn't even know SRS was an option until he saw the movie 'Transamerica'. Everything by the book. He was determined to be more of a female than most females and stated as much, so I believe there was a degree of misogyny involved with his story as well. He also lied about his history to obtain what he wanted and found doctors to sign off on it. Because we all know that there isn't a single doctor out there who would perform unnecessary surgeries or misdiagnose people to turn a buck.

Like I said, I know that there are genuine cases of gender disphoria, but even in such cases, if you don't get the surgery early then they say you should probably live with the gender you were born with.

[NorthernSpy]

36. your friend's story is far from rare...

Virtually every corporate media treatment of this issue carefully omits any mention of this aspect of things. But it's kinda hard not to notice the close association between sex-reassignment surgery and a fairly common sexual fetish.

[dysfunctional press]

6. i think the vast majority of people consider sexual re-assignment to be elective surgery...

that SHOULDN'T be covered by insurance. :shrug:

[Bill McBlueState]

28. probably true

But I would hate for insurance decisions to be made by popular vote.

[kiva]

10. I gotta admit you lost me at the

'wanted to be' transgendered.

[Smith_3]

11. "wanted to be operated"

[bicentennial_baby]

150. "If I had a kid that wanted to be transgendered"

First sentence of your BS post, bucko.

You DO NOT get it. At all.

[tonysam]

21. I Do, Too.

And I don't think we are alone in that belief. If I want to bind my feet the way the Chinese used to do with their women, should insurance pay for that?

Insurance should be ONLY for procedures that are necessary. Reassignment surgery ISN'T necessary any more than cosmetic surgery.

[spinbaby]

45. I'm somewhat baffled, too

One of the most delightful people I've ever met was transgendered and once tried to explain it to me. I told her that, even if tomorrow morning I woke up in a body of the opposite sex, I would live with it rather than getting a bunch of surgery only to sort of be like the sex I wanted.

[Marrah_G]

73. "Why don't people just dress up as the other gender and be a homosexual?"

wtf?

Is this just a case of you needing to be more educated?

Your post shocked the heck out of me.

Not flaming you- if it's a matter of just not understanding, maybe someone can go to pms with you and explain it calmly and rationally.

[Smith_3]

207. Well...

are such drastic measures as a complete surgical overhaul necessary in a society that accepts every person for what they are to start with? I'm not so convinced of that. What if people can marry who they want, dress how they want and even legally be identified as what they want? I know that these conditions don't exist in the US. But in some places they do.

[Solon]

214. This has nothing to do with societal acceptance, don't you understand that?

Many transexuals are unhappy with the bodies they are born with, it feels WRONG to them, why the fuck do you need convincing, it has NOTHING to do with you or society.

[Smith_3]

220. Ok fine.

Whatever it takes to make a person happy. However, I still think it is a tragic situation. Do I think abortions should be safe and legal? Yes. Do I think health insurance should pay for them? Yes. Would I be delighted if my daughter had one. No.

[Solon]

222. Yet another offensive comparisons, do you know when to stop or is it just...

an inborn thing to be as much of an asshole as you are?

[Solon]

146. If you had a kid who was transgendered, I would work to make sure they were removed from an...

abusive home, what a fucking disgusting attitude you have. :puke:

[Smith_3]

206. I'm sorry, but if your son walked up to you and said: "Dad/Mom I want to have my penis cut off"

"and have fake boobs implanted" and your first reaction would not be to ask him if there weren't any easier options then I think you are abusive.

[Solon]

210. What the fuck does that have to do with your quote here?

"If I had a kid that wanted to be transgendered I think I would try my best to talk him/her out of it."

You know, even before surgery, such a child is ALREADY transgendered, what the hell are you going to do to "talk him or her out of it" when you catch your son in a dress?

Oh, and what the fuck are the easier options, to stay in the closet?

[Smith_3]

212. Well. As I said, my son can wear all the dresses he wants.

Can marry another man if he likes, whatever. I would even address him with a girls name if he wants. Still if he told me he wanted to have an operation performed were body parts are removed, high doses of hormones are given, things are implanted, I would be shocked. Do I think insurance should cover such procedures? For me it is not a problem if they do. Stay in the closet? No definately not. What are the easier options? Well, I don't know. But common sense tells me that there must be some nuances in between a full surgical makeover and nothing.

[Solon]

213. It seems to me that basically you have "no problem" with transexuals unless they are family...

Shocked indeed. :eyes:

Kinda reminds me of racists who wouldn't don't approve of their children dating people of other races, but otherwise have "no problem" with said races.

[Smith_3]

215. I'm sorry but you see bigotry where there isn't any.

I'm willing to accept people for what they are. And it saddens me if people are not willing to accept themselves for what they are.

[Solon]

216. There's a difference between willing and able...

Why is it so hard for you to grasp that people may be better off by changing their bodies in this manner? Is it really a tragedy for a Male to Female transexual to choose to have surgery?

[Smith_3]

217. Maybe it is. If this person is entirely sure that they want it.

But I can't help to think that it is partially the way that society responds to people that creates the subjective need for such a procedure.

Then again, there are actual cases of people who wish to have a leg amputated just for the sake of it. These people admire others who have lost limbs due to accidents and sometimes "tie back" their leg inside their pants and walk with crutches to appear like they are an amputee. Society certainly doesn't create this. These people have an extremely strong urge to lose a limb, and some doctors are willing to take off a healthy limb of these people. These people even report to be happier afterwards. Would I be happy if a child of mine was to do that? I don't think so. There is just something about the idea of mutilation that repels me.

[Solon]

218. I think the fact that you consider it mutilation at all that is the problem...

not to mention the downright offensive comparison you made. I'm done, you made your bigoted bed, now lie in it, frankly, if I had the power, you'd be gone from this board.

[Smith_3]

219. I suggest the following: Look up one of the boards on the web were the people gather ...

...that would like to have a leg amputated. Those forums exist. And then tell these people that their desire is less valid as the desire of a transgendered person to be operated. I promise you, you will be accused of the same bigotry as you are accusing me of right now.

[Solon]

221. Do I give a shit?

Seriously, you show a serious lack of what the fuck is involved in gender reassignment surgery, not to mention the research from the AMA and APA, that has lead to a gender reassignment surgery being a valid option when asked for, for the mental health of the patient. Unlike what what you think, it does NOT involve "cutting off a dick" as you so callously put it, nor is it comparable to the people you compare it to.

Look, when someone is completely ignorant of a subject as you are, and yet continues to spout that ignorant opinion as you have, its my job to tell you to shut the fuck up and actually research this shit yourself.

[Smith_3]

223. Ok thanks. I will read it up.

[Midlodemocrat]

153. I don't even know where to start. I can't believe you actually posted that.

[name not needed]

196. "Hey, why don't people just pretend to be straight and stay in the closet?"

Yeah, I think you're on the wrong website.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blogslut]

13. What about the hermaphrodite

...that wants to surgically select their sex? Is that also a lost cause?

[NorthernSpy]

15. I doubt that this policy applies to a person with a physical anomaly.

:shrug:

[blogslut]

18. You doubt, but you don't know.

I use a hermaphrodite as an example because I used to know a person that was born that way. She identified as a female. Sadly, despite her desire to have surgery, no doctor would touch her. She constantly had to live with people accusing her of "faking" her female identity.

You call it an "anomaly". The people that live with a body that defies their identity suffer every day.

[NorthernSpy]

22. what was the doctor's issue with your friend's desire for surgery?

Because there can be medical reasons not to cut, even in a case where surgery would otherwise be appropriate.

[blogslut]

24. I only know what she told me

She claimed that they just wouldn't do it. She didn't go into details. She also said that she had a hard time getting basic medical treatment because of her hermaphroditic condition. She said they were scared of her.

My question to you is: Why is the person born with the genitalia of both sexes somehow worthy of sexual assignment surgery but the person born with the body of one sex and the mind of the other, not worthy? Do you really think it's "all in their head?"

[Starry Messenger]

14. A little more reading might help you understand.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html

I found Lynn Conway's website an excellent source of information. And I really don't think the small amount of gender reassignments really take away from other medical procedures. Once again, there are several countries that are way ahead of us in providing equal care to all its citizens.

[NorthernSpy]

16. I do read about this issue.

Thing is, I don't restrict my reading material to the "satisfied customer" narratives.


Please don't assume that my disagreement with you must necessarily be the result of ignorance.

[Starry Messenger]

19. What other narratives are there? n/t

[bullwinkle428]

25. So you're suggesting that all transgendered people are mentally ill? Wow.

[Bunny]

26. Gender reassignment is a "mental problem"?

Jesus Christ.

[Stevenmarc]

29. You are correct on one point

"The fact is that it is not within our power as human beings to actually change a person's sex."

That's why the surgery is needed to bring a persons body back in line with their sex.


Quite frankly the concept of this procedure somehow stealing money away from other peoples health issues is a conservative canard, the problem isn't how we slice the pie it's that we need to make the pie bigger.

[Fading Captain]

32. And the reality of the day is

In the political climate and these tough economic times,

"Quite frankly the concept of this procedure somehow stealing money away from other peoples health issues is a conservative canard, the problem isn't how we slice the pie it's that we need to make the pie bigger"

Our ability to make the pie bigger is not helped when people can make the argument that "we don't a bigger pie if people are getting sex change operations with the money already there."


Frankly, the way the health insurance system operates today, I don't see how this is justifiable. Where do you draw the line between cosmetic surgery and this? Isn't this elective?
I mean, what if I feel, deep in my bones, that I am a big-nosed man. But in reality, I have a small nose.

I am not trying to make light of the transgender issue, because I can see where it's extremely painful for them.

But what about a woman with low self-esteem and a flat chest? Should bcbs cover a boob job?

[Stevenmarc]

40. Well if the argument

about making the pie bigger can be shot down by one particular surgical procedure then it deserves to be shot down but that's simply not the case because that slice is not necessarily turned over to another persons health issue but more than likely transferred into the insurance companies profit column or in Blue Cross of Michigan's case administrative bonuses.

The line is drawn all the time with the transgendered and most of the procedures that they go through are not covered because they are cosmetic and image related but reassignment corrects the genitalia it has nothing to do with improving them like a nose job or a "boob job"

[dionysus]

8. oh boy

:popcorn:

[Fading Captain]

31. People have medical needs

A nonprofit health insurer has to make these choice.

Good call.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

37. And, I guess trans people aren't really people to you

Since you don't think their MEDICAL needs count.

[Fading Captain]

204. How is it any more "medical"

Than someone who feels like they need a boob job or nose job?

[pnutbutr]

34. like fake boobs

gender reassignment is not a necessary procedure. It is elective and should not be covered. It's also very expensive, surgery, counseling, rehabilitation etc...

Hopefully BCBS customers will see lowered premiums from changes like this.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

38. It is necessary for the health of transgendered people

Mental and emotional health is just as important as physical health.

[pnutbutr]

seriously?

I'd like to hear how not getting your vagina replaced with a penis or penis with vagina negatively affects mental and emotional health.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

49. I suggest you go open your mind and research it a bit

I can't believe I'm reading this shit on a "progressive" board.

[pnutbutr]

77. oh sorry

you may have changed my mind if you were able to answer my question.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

154. Progressive is so old-fashioned! We're "postpartisan" and "pragmatic" now!

(That's a nice way to say "right wing" and "don't give a shit about anybody.")

[Fading Captain]

205. So, if I think I am ugly and believe plastic surgery will make me better

what's the difference

[AirBaud]

63. Are you serious?

There are some really eye opening attitudes on display in this discussion thread.

[pnutbutr]

78. yes

maybe you care to explain why this surgery should not be considered elective like fake boobs.

[AirBaud]

82. Lets nail down what is elective.

Do you feel that cataract surgery is elective?

[pnutbutr]

107. dibilitating

Cataracts can be debilitating so no I would not consider it elective.

[AirBaud]

113. It is considered elective surgery by the medical community.

It is a non-emergency surgical procedure.

[pnutbutr]

118. and

point is?

FYI cataract surgery has been determined to be medically required even though it is elective.

[AirBaud]

121. You stated that elective surgery should not be covered.

There are lots of medical procedures that fall under that category.

[pnutbutr]

123. ok

how bout optional elective surgery to get more specific.

[AirBaud]

128. I have chronic pain in both knees from sports related injuries.

The surgery to repair them is elective. I do not have to get this surgery. I can live and function with the pain. I have an option.

This surgery is covered as an optional elective surgery by my insurance company. Do you think that it should not be covered?

[mwooldri]

167. Erm, "fake boobs" and gender reassignment is available in the UK on the NHS.

Yep, the government will pay for it under certain circumstances.

I am woefully ill informed on matters of sexual orientation and gender assignment. However for the vast majority of transgendered people, it's not a choice. Yes there are cases of people who figured they were transgender, had the operation and yes had regrets afterwards. It can and will happen. However there's a greater population of transgendered people who get counseling, get the medical assistance needed and have fulfilling lives. The problem is with the people who are transgendered and can't get the medical assistance, and BCBS of MI is taking it away from their insured body.

And as for "fake boobs" what about women who undergo breast removal - to treat breast cancer for example? Shouldn't they have breast reconstruction? And women who really have a problem with their breasts period: do we throw them on a constant supply of drugs for their life or do the breast augment?

As for cost: well... the UK's NHS covers the whole country fully - about 60 million - and has a budget under half that of Medicare, which covers about 45 million people and still doesnt cover them fully.

I think the BCBS of MI executives - if they're taking out massive salaries in the multi-millions then they can cut those first IMO.

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. Is being transgendered an illness?

If not, I don't see how the surgery would be covered.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

39. I don't consider an illness, but it's in the DSM-IV

[NorthernSpy]

46. So is Body Dismorphic Disorder.

Surgery isn't the answer to that problem, either.


If there's no illness involved in wanting to change ones sex, then there are no grounds for medical treatment of any kind. So I take it you won' object to the insurer's policy of not accepting these surgeries as necessary medical procedures.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

50. I do object to the insurers' policy, because I'm not a bigot

You, on the other hand, seem to have less educated views.

[NorthernSpy]

58. I object to helping people hurt themselves.

I won't do it, and I certainly won't approve of taking resources away from necessary medical care to finance such things.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

59. They are not hurting themselves

They are aligning their body with their heads, for their mental and emotional health.

You apparently, don't care about that.

[Romulox]

44. We have people without access to the most basic care in Michigan.

Unfortunately, scarcity means making choices.

[AirBaud]

47. How is the health and well being of these individuals not basic care?

Why must they sacrifice first when choices have to be made?

[cali]

52. I think anyone who is basically in good physical health

and haa basic care, may have to sacrifice. And no elective surgery is basic care. not by any definition. In the best of all possible worlds, they would be covered, but right now we're living in a world where millions are getting virtually no care.

[NorthernSpy]

53. How is amputating the leg of an apotemnophile not basic care?

The person suffering from that disorder would say that the destruction of his healthy leg is the "basic care" that he'll need to live a full, healthy, differently-legged life.


But not all of us are on board with helping people to mutilate themselves, especially when the resources committed to that purpose could be used more beneficially.

[AirBaud]

56. I am not of the belief that those that would undergo gender reassigment procedures

wish to do so because they have a fetish or mental illness.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

51. Yes, and that choice is denying care to a group based on bigotry

[cali]

54. elective surgery is not basic care.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

57. It's not elective surgery if someone's health depends on it

[cali]

60. Sorry, but it's still elective surgery

you're speaking of mental health. That's important, no doubt, but no it's still not basic care or surgery that's necessary to save a life.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

61. Read about the suicide rates of trans people, and then get back to me

[cali]

65. I'm familiar with those figures- or at least I was a few years back

yes, it's somewhat higher but not more so than other at risk populations. That's a mental health issue. And someone who's suicidal should indeed get help.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

67. And, gee, let's see what part of that help entails

The care you want to deny them.

[cali]

70. I don't want to deny anyone anything.

I want to prioritize and getting the person with nothing, healthcare, is more important than getting someone elective surgery.

[AirBaud]

88. Cataract surgery is elective. It improves quality of life.

Should it be covered?

[NorthernSpy]

91. Cataracts are not a state of mind.

Gender dysphoria IS a state of mind.

Just like Body Dysmorphic Disorder is a state of mind.


And surgery is not indicated.

[Sebastian Doyle]

199. Freeper bigotry is a state of mind

And sadly it seems to have claimed some victims in this very thread.

[Zywiec]

99. Do you have a household budget?

There are a lot of things that would improve my quality of life, but I can't afford them all.

So unfortunately I have to make decisions on where my money goes and with a family there are some tough decisions.

I think these are the same tough decisions the insurance companies face.

If you were CEO of an insurance company, how would you prioritize your limited budget?

[AirBaud]

68. Do you believe that someone with chronic pain

that is not life threatening should be covered, arthroscopic knee surgery for example?

[cali]

72. yes, I meant to put something like that in. that's not considered elective, however.

[AirBaud]

76. I disagree with your defintion.

Elective surgery: Surgery which need not be performed on an emergency basis because reasonable delays will not affect the outcome of the surgery unfavorably.

[NorthernSpy]

81. that's still part of a physical disorder

Just the sort of thing that surgery is meant to treat.

[AirBaud]

84. It is not life saving.

It enhances quality of life. It alleviates pain. It is elective.

[NorthernSpy]

87. but it's within the scope of what surgical medicine exists to do...

... which is to treat physical ills.


Gender dysphoria is a state of mind.

[AirBaud]

93. It is a recognized medical condition for which surgical medicine offers a solution.

It is not a "state of mind".

[NorthernSpy]

105. People used to think that prefrontal lobotomies were a great solution...

... to problematic states of mind.


It was overreaching medical arrogance, and the gullibility of the public in the face of "expert opinion" aided and abetted things that should not have been done.


Kind of like now.

[AirBaud]

120. Do you disagree with it being classified as a medical condition?

Or do you disagree that surgery offers a valid solution?

[NorthernSpy]

125. It's an emotional and psychological condition, and...

... yes, I'd say that cutting pieces out of the bodies of the sufferers is a drastic and inappropriate response.

[AirBaud]

130. The American Medical Association does not agree with you.

What are the sources for your assertions?

[NorthernSpy]

134. The AMA is a political organization.

They also oppose single-payer universal healthcare. That stance is informed by their ideology as well.

[AirBaud]

135. So what is the organization of medical professionals that supports your view,

that it is all a state of mind?

[Starry Messenger]

180. I'd like to hear the answer to this question as well.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

64. Such compassion

[NorthernSpy]

85. Is it compassion to give people everything they want?

Not necessarily.

And not in this case.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

94. It's compassionate to allow people to fulfill their health needs

[Bill McBlueState]

75. if there's no money for anything but basic care

then all non-basic care needs to be cut back equally, not just the kinds that generate controversy.

[Midlodemocrat]

66. Wow. Just wow.

The transgender threads on DU certainly bring out the...uninformed.

:eyes:

[cali]

69. yes, there's that. and then there are folks like me who are well informed

and still don't see elective surgery as basic care. Important care, yes. And in the best of all possible worlds, those who want gender reassignment could easily obtain it, but that's not where we are. And let's face it, if you don't have insurance and you want/need gender reassignment, you're screwed anyway. Getting all Americans decent healthcare should be the first priority.

[Stinky The Clown]

71. Holy shit. Stop the presses. We agree on something

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

74. Honestly, if you don't think insurance should cover transgender surgery/care

You ought to not be flying that flag. That is for GLB AND T people. Denying Transpeople care they need is not being an ally to them.

[bicentennial_baby]

86. Well said

I agree 100%

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

98. Honestly, I think the people who say they "understand" the issue and are still against it

are the most appalling. It's like saying, "yeah, I completely understand, but I'm still going to deny you full medical care."

Just astounding.

I can't believe there's only 1 deleted message in this thread, because the message in that post has been repeated ad nauseum by a whole slew of bigots in this thread.

[Midlodemocrat]

100. This entire thread is appalling.

I'd like to know how many T folks those here who would deny this surgery actually know.

I'm betting the number is zero.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

102. I would agree

I've seen trans people struggle first hand with not having their needs covered by insurance.

It's appalling that "progressives" would wish that upon anyone.

[Midlodemocrat]

106. Gotta love the fact that certain disorders warrant compassion

and others don't.

Frankly, I can't think of many worse than what some trans folk go through. I've seen people die from cancer, Alzheimer's, etc., and those things, while horrible, aren't really comparable to despising the body you are trapped in.

WIsh more people could understand this. But, again, some things are worthy of compassion apparently.

[NorthernSpy]

131. I don't think that surgically trying to change someone's sex is compassionate.

I think it's arrogant false compassion, and that it's a mark of our gullibility that we even believe that we have such power in the first place.

[arcadian]

89. Curious as to how you feel about the 'womyn born womyn' policy at MWMF?

And are they bigots?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

92. I think it's a bigoted policy

But this thread isn't about some stupid music festival, so I don't understand the point of your question.

[arcadian]

96. You told the previous poster to stop flying GLBT flag.

Should the MWMF do the same?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

101. Wow, how deep is that rabbit hole you just jumped down

[arcadian]

109. Clearly, your goal is to shut down any meaningful discussion of this topic.

Nice job.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

110. Meaningful discussion? I think others shut that down long ago

You just took it a step forward with the non-sequitor.

[arcadian]

111. Actually, it was germane to the topic.

You decided that you were going to be the arbiter of who gets to fly what flags.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

114. Denying medical care to TG people is not being their ally

They were flying the flag for GLBT ally.

[NorthernSpy]

122. I'm all for giving them *appropriate* medical care.

Key word: appropriate.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

126. What's "appropriate" medical care?

Denying them what is necessary for their mental/emotional health?

[AirBaud]

132. According to the American Medical Association,

"An established body of medical research studies demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment"

[NorthernSpy]

137. So? A few decades ago, lobotomies were The Way Forward.

Medical arrogance has always detracted from the good that doctors can do. The basic problem is nothing new.

[NorthernSpy]

117. I think this is a meaningful discussion.

Because people have actually voiced their objections to a bunch of unsupported assertions, instead of just swallowing them and pretending to agree so that they won't get yelled at.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

127. "unsupported assertions"

Well, I'm personally happy that the medical community agrees with my "unsupported assertions."

[NorthernSpy]

112. Thing is, there isn't really a consensus on this issue.

Some people do try to pretend that there is a consensus, and that it's up to the few dissenters to get with the program, or else.

But no, in reality there isn't a consensus in favor of using public resources or insurance to pay for these surgeries. And in fact, there isn't a consensus in favor such procedures, or for the notion that sex can really be altered, at all.

That's true of the sentiment on the Left, and in the broader society as well.

[Stinky The Clown]

140. I'm not for denying them care

I'm about moving forward.

I gotta ask you something ...... obviously we disagree on a single point (the topic of this OP). Are you saying because of that I am unwelcome as a supporter of gay rights? That's not a rhetorical question.

[mtnester]

211. The sad thing in this is, you used the "I am a supporter of xxxx BUT" argument

not good, never good. And you know that.

As I am sure that you also know this whole elective surgery OP crap is a RW talking point, saying/assuming that thousands upon thousands TG people are running around getting this surgery willy nilly is causing all KINDS of folks to not be able to get basic care BS outright crapola made up crap...this meme by BCBS is a way to remove the morally repugnant (to them) surgery from their coverage in a way that could not be considered to be denying care or cruel...it was the old deflect argument, straight from the playbook, and you fell for it.....and got on the bandwagon before you lowered your flag. The saddest part is that you don't see it that way, and I wish you could take a minute to reflect on that, because I don't really think you are that kind of person.

[arcadian]

80. Yeah, gotta admit, I agree with cali on this one.

n/t

[Zywiec]

83. +1 n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

95. If you see gender reassignment as elective surgery, you are

far from well informed. Know any transgendered folks? I treated them. Their suffering is horrific and to reduce gender reassignment to elective surgery is appalling.

[cali]

103. I certainly do know trans folks. post-op and pre-op. Quite a few of them

And lots of folks suffering is horrific. Oh, and I'm not the one who designated gender reassignment surgery as elective.

As I said, in the best of all possible worlds, gender reassignment surgery would be provided to all who wanted it. This isn't that world.

[AlCzervik]

108. There's some major assholery and willful ignorance on this thread.

[Midlodemocrat]

139. You're too kind.

:thumbsup:

It's amazing.

[AlCzervik]

142. it's stunning and disappointing---as usual.

i cannot wait to go on vacation.

[leftyclimber]

145. I've tried to stay out of this thread and will leave it at this one comment:

I watched one of my dearest friends go through hell trying to get gender reassignment surgery (she'd long been through all the other treatments but couldn't afford the surgery, which was not covered). She finally had to go to THAILAND to have it done. Her entire life had been a living hell up to that point. Having that surgery was life-changing for her -- both dramatic and for the positive. Like being reborn.

I'm sad for the people who don't understand how very, very real this is, and how very, very serious it is. And I'm hurt because of my friend, and how being transgendered has affected her.

I'm done now.

- sad and hurt lefty

[Solon]

136. Holy fucking shit, a lot of bigots in this thread, of course, most are the usual suspects...

Bigots simply have no shame.

[NorthernSpy]

141. when your only rhetorical tool is denunciation of bigotry...

... then every contrary opinion will start to look like bigotry.


Even if it's really not.

[Solon]

143. I call it as I see it, and I'm not the only one...

Transphobia is alive and well on DU, and you are but one example of that. So STFU already.

[NorthernSpy]

152. I just think that these surgeries are both harmful and medically unnecessary.

It's not about phobias or bigotry.

[Solon]

155. You aren't the one whose requesting said surgeries, so you opinion doesn't matter...

besides that, the medical data that's available doesn't support your assertion. Anecdotal evidence that you may put forward means precisely jack shit.

[Sebastian Doyle]

201. "medically unnecessary" as opposed to WHAT, exactly?

Tell us, Dr. Freeper.... what would be YOUR professional medical advice to a transgendered person?

Let me guess.... camping and lots of prayers??

[fascisthunter]

138. the bigotry on DU astounds me...

getting an operation to change one's sexual organs is not "cosmetic".

[NorthernSpy]

144. The various objections that people have raised here are not expressions of bigotry.

I haven't heard one person here express hatred for the people who want these surgeries.

[Solon]

147. Smith_3 is a classic example of a bigot, even advocating for emotionally abusing...

their own child if they were transgendered, the fact that you don't see it just confirms what some of us are saying.

[MindPilot]

149. Lasik surgery is considered "cosmetic" and not covered

but I sure would like to be able to fucking SEE!

How is being trapped in a body with the wrong sex organs any different from being trapped in a body with eyes that don't focus?

[Solon]

151. Are you going to commit suicide because you wear glasses? n/t

[fascisthunter]

156. wow... you went there... you made my point

the fact that you compared Lasik surgery with the surgery of an individual that was born with the wrong genitalia to make an argument against transgenedered folks is mind staggering. Hopefully you won't have children that have to deal with this issue...

[NorthernSpy]

159. Own goal!

Uh, I think he was on your side...


:think:

[fascisthunter]

160. holy crap

are bigots dumb as hell.

[NorthernSpy]

164. is the poster not implying that myopia surgery might be a legitimate candidate...

... for insurance coverage?


If so, then it would seem that he's not actually disagreeing with you in principle (as I am), but rather is pointing out that there are other procedures that should perhaps be covered first as long as money is scarce. That's the point I was making.

Of course, if MindPilot does disagree with you in principle, then I reckon he'll say so.

[QC]

158. It's par for the course these last couple of years.

I wish I could be astounded by bigotry on DU, but frankly I can't even work up any mild surprise anymore.

[Behind the Aegis]

148. Gender reassignment surgery is not cosmetic surgery in that it is "frivolous."

Gender reassignment surgery is a long ordeal. It isn't someone walking into a clinic and asking for a "snip and tuck." It is basically correcting a situation caused at conception (or a little afterward). It is no different than having surgery to correct a cleft palette.

[NorthernSpy]

157. except that cleft-palate is a *physical* disorder, hence the surgical treatment...

The idea that a mind can end up inhabiting the "wrong" body is pure superstition.

[Solon]

161. So now you are saying transgendered people don't exist?

And you claim that you aren't a bigot? Holy fucking shit, you have a lot of nerve.

[AirBaud]

163. I believe "state of mind" is the phrase I have seen used.

Some of these attitudes are a little surprising.

[NorthernSpy]

165. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's not an anatomical disorder.

And that attempting to radically alter the person's anatomy is unwarranted and unwise.

[Solon]

170. Well you already demonstrated that you are completely ignorant on this subject...

so your opinion is one of the uninformed. Why not shut up about what you don't know already.

[Bluebear]

173. Yes, you think transgenderism is a "superstition", according to you. Like walking under a ladder.

Idiot.

[Behind the Aegis]

162. So is what we are discussing.

"The idea that a mind can end up inhabiting the "wrong" body is pure superstition."

And there you have it, proof positive just how ignorant you are on this topic.

[NorthernSpy]

171. no, really...

This notion that the mind of a person who wants sex-reassignment surgery has somehow ended up in the wrong body because of something that happened around conception is a) pure speculation, and b) seemingly derivative of religious ideas of ensoulment.

So much of what we hear about this topic seems to reflect an essentially superstitious conception of the relation between mind and body.

[Solon]

172. You do realize that there have been studies that seem to show that transexual brains are...

anatomically different from nontransexuals, don't you?

[NorthernSpy]

175. nothing definitive, though...

Look, there have been a number of small studies that have been reported to have discovered "the secret of the gay brain" or the "transsexual brain", or the "gay gene", or whatever. And all of it falls way short of anything like proof of any substantial differences pertaining to most members of these groups.

Which is a mercy, given the vogue for surgical interventions to "fix" unaccepted aspects of oneself.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

176. Answer my question: Do you think people are born gay or is that a choice too?

[NorthernSpy]

177. Well, what do you think?

:shrug:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

191. That you probably don't think gays are born gay

[NorthernSpy]

198. what I think is that this subject is very complex...

And that homosexuality may not have one single origin that holds true for everyone.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

202. Please explain further

I'd love to hear what you think.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

166. Do you think gay people are a "superstition", too?

[NorthernSpy]

168. You're proposing reassignment surgery for gays, too?

:scared:


I would be against that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

169. That's not what I'm saying and you know it

Of course, if someone is gay and transgendered, that's a different story.

Since trans people are a "superstition," I was wondering if you felt the same way about people being born gay. If that's just a "superstition" as well.

[mainegreen]

174. They are getting hammered by loss of participants. Auto-worker layoffs are the cause of this.

Nothing else.

[LeftHander]

178. Personally....I want to have this covered....

I am trans M2F..and I personally want to say to people who would arbitrarily deny me treatment because THEY feel uncomfortable. My gender expression is not MY PROBLEM....it is YOUR PROBLEM if you make it one.

I am happy. NOT MISERABLE. And regardless what debate you have...I and tens of thousands like me will continue our journey with our without you. So you all can fight over the "T" issues all you want. It makes no difference to me.

If you look me in the face and tell me I can't do this and I can't go there because I look like a woman but have a penis and then tell me I am a "problem" and should be happy with the body I got...just go away I don;t want to hear it.


Dignity, understanding, respect and kindness from the healthcare industry....is that too much to ask?

Being stared at, laughed at, ridiculed and denied entry to public facilities is a everyday reality for us....being treated like that by healthcare professionals and denied simple and basic medical treatment by insurance companies is simply an extension of the public ignorance and humiliation and is unacceptable and inhuman.

[bicentennial_baby]

179. ...

:hug:

[Starry Messenger]

181. I want this covered, too.

I can't believe this thread. :hug: I just finally got a lunch break and came back and I have never been so sad at the state of DU as I am today reading this thread.

[Runcible Spoon]

186. Thank you for posting this.

:hug:

[Jersey Devil]

185. My 2 cents not knowing all that much about the subject

Maybe I should just keep quiet because I really don't know much about the subject, but it seems to me that gender altering surgery is never done on a whim like someone who wants a nose job just because they don't like the shape of their nose (as opposed to those with "necessary" rhinoplasty due to physical conditions such as a deviated septum). As I understand it, for someone to undergo gender transforming surgery they must first undergo a long series of interviews, psychological testing and evaluation and then live for a period of time as the other gender with hormonal treatments, etc., before surgery is finally approved. Am I wrong about that?

In those circumstances, if it is clear from the health professionals that the mental health of the person requesting the surgery would be harmed if the surgery were withheld then I would consider it "necessary" for their mental well being.

[Runcible Spoon]

187. You know more than the bigots on this thread, that's for sure.

:hug:

No, it is NEVER done lightly.

Except on small children-now THAT is wrong. The kids should be able to grow up and age past puberty until they are old enough to choose for themselves.

[Runcible Spoon]

188. Trans community can't win-

First you have butchers of "doctors" who chopped up untold numbers as small children so they can grow up "normally", usually as a female since the surgery was easier. Then you have insurance companies refusing to fix these tragic mutilations, and refusing to cover reassignment surgeries for those who were "fortunate" to grow up without being mutilated at birth.

[FreeState]

192. And one wonders why nearly all the Transgendered posters on DU no longer post here

this thread is disgusting and beneath the purpose of DU IMO.

If your transgendered and reading this please know there are people here that support you 100% including your right to medical care you and your doctor decide is necessary.

[Solon]

193. Hear hear! Not everyone on DU are transphobic ingrates, just a loud...

and unfortunately significant segment of it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

194. Seconded

[LostinVA]

195. I am honestly shocked this is still open -- this is probably THE MOST VILE thread ever on DU

It is truly disgusting. Worse than MaddieJoan.

[NorthernSpy]

197. No one has argued for discrimination.

No one has argued for any ostracism of, or hatred against transsexual people. No one here has done that, and I would certainly object if any of us tried. The humanity of transsexual people is not at issue here, and never will be.


Some people have questioned whether sex-reassignment surgery should be a priority for a healthcare system that struggles to fund treatment for even life-threatening illnesses.


And a few of us have questioned the rightness of the surgeries themselves.


On the Left, there is actually no party line on the issue of whether or not medical science can or should attempt to change a person's physical sex. It's an open question. But I'm aware that you do not think it should be discussed.

Or rather, you can't tolerate any discussion of that particular question if it includes views differing substantially from your own.

[Starry Messenger]

200. What is this "on the Left" stuff?

What ever your rationale, I sure as heck glad you are not in charge of things medical. Your views differ substantially from accepted medical wisdom. You have still not backed up any of your assertions with any links to literature that you base your "questioning" on.

[FreeState]

203. You sure make a lot of assumptions about me in that one post

Step back from the computer an re-read what I wrote. I did not bring up one thing you mentioned. My post was mostly aimed at Transgendered DUers who no doubt feel not very welcome after this thread.

Questioning what medical decisions people make with their doctor is not a progressive principle.

[Morning Dew]

208. Thanks for this thread.

Incredible bigotry. I'm stunned.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

224. It certainly shows off some of our "finest"