Would you take a pill guaranteed to give you 5 more years of healthy living,

[hedgehog]

if that pill made you fat?

Paul Campos asks that question in this book, The Obesity Myth.

It hit home with me because that is my situation. I take pills every day to control clinical depression. Because of them, I now live an active, happy life. I reach out to others and can take care of myself and my family. I walk my dogs a mile every day cross country. I am avoiding death by suicide. I am also FAT!

Paul Campos asks a second revealing question: Would you take a pill that would shorten your life by 5 years, if that pill would make you thin?


Try to stay on topic and avoid flame-outs!

[monmouth]

1. Great post and I would definitely rather be fat and live another five

healthy years. You're doing your exercise with the walking, obviously you're a happy person. Thin? I've been thin and blonde and married wealth. It's a myth, I'm now overweight, still blonde to hide the gray and very happy. Doubt you'll get any flame-outs.

[wtmusic]

2. How fat?

Being chronically obese shares no common space with "healthy living". So this is one of those rhetorical, fantasy questions.

[hedgehog]

6. Define "healthy living"

Balanced diet with whole grains, fruits, moderate portions of meat,oils and sweets: Check

Low cholesterol: check

High "good" cholesterol: check

Low resting pulse: check

Low to normal blood pressure: check

Good lung volume: check

Good sleeping habits: check

Regular vigorous exercise: check

[wtmusic]

18. Yes, the definitions are key.

"Low", "high", "normal", "good", and "regular" can be interpreted however your like. That's the problem with this type of question.

I would guess that you're not obese, but it would be just a guess. I've heard obese people (as defined by the World Health Organization) review their own health in similar glowing terms.

More specifically, no I would not want to live another 5 years obese. Been there, done that.

[tavalon]

24. If you really do all of those regularly, you are fine no matter how much you weigh

I would add one other habit. Do not read Vogue, Cosmopolitan or any of those other magazines (with the exception of Prevention magazine) even in the doctors office. They are the blatant sign of our societies mental illness. Also, don't take Hollywood standards as the way we should be. That whole city has anorexia. They are very, very ill and their illness is catching.

Also, just a scale doesn't tell you anything. When I was thin, I had no muscle mass and was at about 30% body fat. I now have muscle mass and I don't know how much body fat I have. I refuse to have a scale in the house. They lie and they convince people they aren't good enough.

It's awfully hard not to be mentally ill in a society that is mentally ill.

[Juche]

14. In Campos's book he talks about 10-20 pounds

That was the area of weight gain he was talking about.

[Zywiec]

22. Thank you, this provides some of the missing information I was thinking about.

10-20 pounds is something I play with every winter before I get out running each spring to return to my ideal weight.

Most of the people I see that are overweight easily exceed the 10-20 pounds.

This sounds like another: "I'm obese, but healthy" fantasy.

[Juche]

26. Some research shows being overweight is healthier than a BMI of 19-25

Some research has shown a BMI of 25-29 is healther than a BMI of 19-25, so it can be healthier to be fat.


http://www.reason.com/news/show/123461.html

Although being merely "overweight" was associated with a higher death rate from diabetes and kidney disease, it "was not associated with mortality from cancer or cardiovascular disease." And since overweight people were significantly less likely to die from other causes, "the net result was that overweight was associated with significantly decreased all-cause mortality." Adjusting for smoking and pre-existing illness, both of which can be associated with lower weight, did not change the findings.

Standing alone, these data do not prove that plumpness is healthy or that thinness kills. But they do cast doubt on some of the more alarmist predictions made by "obesity epidemic" doomsayers.

[Turbineguy]

3. Yes, but first

I need to have enough in my retirement fund to afford to live 5 years longer.

[lurky]

4. I quit smoking and got really fat.

It was totally worth it. (That was 8 years ago. Since then, I have managed to lose most of the weight.)

[wtmusic]

28. That's pretty common

Happened to me too. One thing at a time. :thumbsup:

[lurky]

58. Yeah, there are worse things than being fat.

No regrets for me on that one.

[RebelOne]

57. I am 70 years old and have been smoking

since I was 15. I do not intend to stop because I do not want to become fat. If I have survived this long, I think I will make it for another 10 years. I do not have any major health problems except for high blood pressure and high cholestrol. But my doctor told me to blame it on my parents as they both had those conditions. I am a vegetarian, so eating All red meat isn't going to kill me. All the females on my mother's side of the family lived well into their 80s despite heart disease and cancer.

[lurky]

59. Sounds like you're doing OK.

Cheers! :hi:

[PVnRT]

5. Generally, that kind of weight gain can be controlled or reversed

Besides, our culture defines as "fat" anyone whose rib cage doesn't show.

[tavalon]

9. Yep, the mental illness I alluded to in another post sounds like anorexia

but I could see my body exactly as it was. I was just in such emotional pain because my partner was leaving me and I wanted him to know how bad I hurt. But then, one day, he said how hot I looked at 110 lbs. I went in the bathroom, took off my clothes and realized in that moment that he was leaving me because I wasn't the perfect model material and I also saw that I was emaciated. I have refused from that day to buy into the crap that American culture wants us to believe is beautiful. I also let the man go though it wasn't instantaneous but I can certainly thank him for showing me a side of him that I wasn't willing to go along with.

I'm heavier now but so much happier and now I'm aging and as an added bonus, it isn't scaring me the way I imagined. I'm actually grateful that men now realize that my eyes are on my face and not my nipples.

[PVnRT]

50. A +1 for you

[tavalon]

7. In answer to the first question, yes, though I would fight it with all my strength

but things like Zyprexa do that with or without massive working out and watching food intake. It just does and it isn't alone in that. I'm lucky that my SSRI, which can have that side effect, hasn't with me. To the second question, fuck no. I got over that crap in my mid thirties, thank goodness.

Healthy body mass matters, even if it's heavier than one would prefer. I starved myself once for four months and I was about 110 on a 5 foot frame. I also got 15 cavities and my nails are ridged and I try not to think of the damage that was done on the inside. Ever since that bout of mental illness, I have treated my body as the temple that it is. I feed it well, I exercise moderately and I indulge in whatever I want from time to time. Thin isn't necessarily healthy. Heavy isn't necessarily unhealthy. Pure fat around the middle of the body is very dangerous but again, can be helped with exercise but it doesn't mean one will get a flat tummy. We are all made differently and fighting it is stupid. Healthy choices are smart.

[hedgehog]

12. I weighed 106 at 5'2" as a teenager, and wouldn't look at myself in the

mirror because I thought I was overweight! I wonder today if the fact that I kept myself so thin as a young woman is the reason I've gotten heavier as I've aged.

[tavalon]

15. Really hard to say. I've heard there is a theory that the body

goes into starvation mode and when fed a reasonable amount, it will store it as fat for the next lean times. Also, there is a normal slowing of the metabolism as we age, though that can be countered somewhat. I've been watching a friend of mine who has transformed himself in the last year. He went from having quite the belly and starting to get heavy all over to looking like a 25 year old with a six pack of abs. You would think that might be motivating, but all he ever does these days is go to gym, every day for hours and he runs about 20-30 miles a week - it's his whole life. Truth be told, while I'm upping my walking and lifting some weights, I'm just not willing to be that dedicated to getting my 20 year old body back. I have a child and a busy life and I don't have all that much time that I want to devote to that. I'm doing the moderation thing and being happy with my body as it is. Healthy and a little heavy.

[Statistical]

8. How about neither?

[bigwillq]

10. Naw.

I'm going to let my life take its intended course, good or bad.

[Marrah_G]

11. I'd take 10-15-20 years off my life if it meant I could take a pill and be thin.

I'd love to be viewed as an actual worthwhile human being again by people other then my immediate loved ones.

[bigscott]

16. wow

i dont understand why anyone would care what others thought about them as long as they were happy in their own skin. Screw them! If you like yourself that is all that matters

I weightlift and work out all the time - the reward? I like the way I look and feel but most people think I do steroids (which i never have)

peace to you marrah

BigS

[Marrah_G]

20. Do people snicker and laugh at you? Do they assume you are pathetic and lazy?

Do the people in whatever gender you are attracted to you consider you either gross or invisible? Have you ever heard one person saY to another " if I ever end up looking like that, please kill me"?

Doesn't matter that I work hard, raise my children alone, treat others well...

Unless you have walked a mile in my shoes, you have no idea.

[wtmusic]

23. .

:hug:

You're the best MG. Tell them to go to hell, they're not worth your time.

[Marrah_G]

27. I feel stupid for entering into this thread.

I just should have used "hide thread".

hate even thinking about this crap at work because I tear up.

[tavalon]

33. Oh, hon, I'm sorry this is so upsetting for you

I hope I haven't said anything that upset you. It wasn't my intent, surely.

[Juche]

29. You can't be totally invisible to the opposite sex

How'd you end up with kids then? Someone had to find you attractive.

It is going to sound quaint, but a reasonable deal of what you're feeling is under your control and can be adjusted by working on your self esteem and self compassion. Try self affirmations in front of a mirror.

If you need it to improve your psychological health lap band surgery is effective for weight loss. The risks are low, its affordable and it works fairly well.

[Marrah_G]

36. My youngest is 15

Not totally invisible no.... I am engaged (finally) to a great guy who sees past the outer shell. That doesn't negate the truth about how the majority of our culture views overweight people. Or how they look at he and I when we go out to dinner or out on a date.

Surgery is not an option.

I am doing what I can at the Y.

I've changed the way we the boys and I eat at home.

Genetics is a bitch- I am the perfect example.

I never should have posted on this thread.

To be honest only those who have lived at my weight can really understand why I would answer the way I did.

[Juche]

43. I'd prefer you post in this thread

Posts like yours remind all the fat fascists of the world of the severe negative effects of their beliefs and behaviors. I think if all the evangelicals who support gay marriage bans were forced to meet all the gay people out there who are suicidal and depressed because they feel rejected they'd change their tune, but as is they never see the true consequences of their attitudes. However as long as they never see the negative effects, they keep going. Same with the war in Iraq. If it weren't sanatized and we were forced to see all the Iraqi civilians who have died and their families reactions, or see all the US troops dead and disabled for life support for the war would go down. But the media chooses to sanitize and hide those facts to prevent us from disapproving of the war.

Theres nothing wrong with intense emotions coming out, esp if it reminds people of what the negative effects can be of draconian social standards. As someone who has had to deal with the consequences of severe humiliation I can understand the insecurity and the intense emotions, but the cause is different for me. But no, I'm not sitting here thinking less of you for having intense emotions, just so you know. It is a human trait to have strong emotions and to be insecure.

The vast vast majority of our culture either already is fat, thinks it is fat or is afraid of getting fat. So in a very real way we are all on the shit end of the stick in that regards and its not like the people who are judging you (or who you think are judging you) are free from that judgement themselves.

This thread was started with mention of Campos's book. For me that book when I first read it in 2005 was a total eye opener and permanently changed the way I felt about obesity and society as a whole. I'd highly recommend you get a copy. It is either called 'the obesity myth' or 'the diet myth'.

http://www.amazon.com/Obesity-Myth-Americas-Obsession-Hazardous/dp/1592400663/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238082442&sr=1-1

[Marrah_G]

45. I see if the library has a copy after work today

[Missy Vixen]

62. Really?

Lap band surgery is $16,000 and not covered by most insurance companies.

[Juche]

65. Yes. It is $10,700 in michigan

On a 5 year payment plan it comes to about $240 a month. Plus you spend less on food and it tends to cure type II diabetes in about 80% of people who have it, so the savings in food and medical care will eventually pay for it.

[Missy Vixen]

66. Considering the fact that the morbidly obese get hired last

AND get paid less than their thinner counterparts, coming up with the $240 a month might be quite a challenge.

I don't spend $250 a month on food for myself now.

[Juche]

67. I don't think they get hired last

Convicted felons probably get hired last.

$240 a month for 5 years, if it will make a positive difference in a person's psychological health (which because we are all so vulnerable to social criticism, it will for many) and/or cure their type II diabetes and cardiovascular disfunction (hyptertension, high cholesterol & high triglycerides tend to improve) is a good deal. $10,700 is about the cost of a decent used car. Its not a life or death amount of money for alot of people.

I do spend $250 a month on food for myself (about $8/day). Its great.

[tavalon]

31. This is an aside and yet not

My son has autism and a few years ago he had a tantrum in public. Now, when he tantrums, I focus on him and I don't notice people around us but this one time, two women were determined to make sure I heard their disapproval. After he settled a bit, I went over and told them he has autism and this is normal, though frustrating behavior but their behavior was not normal and equally frustrating and I didn't want to ever hear it again. They were shocked into silence.

Back when I was younger and men had a tendency to look me in the boobs, I was known for reaching out to do a chin assist. If they did it a second time, I explained to them that they were behaving inappropriately and that I was now going to walk away to give them a time out. I'm southern so I can be blunt and yet, oh, so charming. I'm also a Leo and I expect certain behavior from people around me and especially my friends and I almost always get it without having to resort to the more drastic measures.

[Juche]

21. Everyone cares what others think of them

The only people who truly don't care what others think are people high on drugs, sociopaths and the severely mentally ill. And I've been both high on drugs and severely mentally ill and I wouldn't recommend it. Aside from that everyone feels shame and pain when they fail to fulfill their obligations to the social contract. However the degree of shame and pain and the intensity of the effect on you is partly under your control based on how good of a social support network you have, how much self worth you give yourself, how many good traits you cultivate independent of the ones that are disapproved of and how much self compassion you give yourself.

To prove that you care what others think go out in the middle of the street, take off all your clothes and start shouting "I'm the lord Jesus Christ, sent to bring the good word". Chances are you won't because you care what others think, just like I do, just like everyone else does.

Its a sad trait of social mammals like ourselves, one of the prices we pay for the benefits of living in a society (better food gathering, better information, better resistance to predators) is to always remain deeply vulnerable to the pain caused by rejection from that society, so we can be kept obedient.

[wtmusic]

32. A straw man.

How people regard our mental stability should not equate in importance to how people regard our physical appearance.

[Juche]

34. What?

I'm not sure what you're saying.

[tavalon]

35. I use Urban camouflage to keep the world at bay so yes, I use what you're saying

But the people I allow closer need to not behave shallowly.

[tavalon]

19. People who would regard you as a worthwhile human being only if you were thin

are not the kind of people you want in your life. They are shallow and besides, even if you were as thin as you wanted to be, you will get old, your jowls will start to sink and those same, ever so important people would once again, decide you weren't worthwhile. If you are unhealthily heavy, start walking but not to be thin, to be healthy. Eat more vegetables, not to be thin, but to tell your body that you love it. And if you don't love your body, no one, even your family, will ever fill that void.

Damn, I knew those thousands of dollars of therapy were useful, if only to learn to love myself as I am.

[Marrah_G]

25. I quit smoking, I go to the gym 3 times a week

I don't eat crap.

I am trying, as I have been trying unsucessfully for years. Trying even harder now.

Every failed attempt ends up with even more gained back then lost.

No amount of therapy will change the fact that in our culture, young and fat is looked upon with loathing and anger, older and fat is just invisible. I am actually thankful to be entering the invisible ages.

I have people in my life who don't care about my weight. But I have to live out in the world. If I said it didn't hurt I would just be lying.

[hedgehog]

30. Looking around DU, I just had an ephiphany: No one on DU would suggest

that gay people can be "cured" or that they would get over teh gay if they just put their minds to it. Yet, in the face of growing evidence that our body mass is as pre-determined as our heights, how many people who happen to fit into the the fashionable size range assure those of us who don't that if we just ate less and exercised more, we, too could be svelte?

[Missy Vixen]

64. Thank you so much, Hedgehog

>Yet, in the face of growing evidence that our body mass is as pre-determined as our heights, how many people who happen to fit into the the fashionable size range assure those of us who don't that if we just ate less and exercised more, we, too could be svelte?<

The fat bigots will arrive in the thread to parrot their tired thermodynamics statistics and "calories in, calories out" any second now.

In the meantime, there's a compelling example above of why these folks should put a sock in it, but they won't get that. These are real people with real pain. It's all about how the height-weight proportionate don't fight their bodies daily, therefore, they're morally superior to the fat slobs.

[tavalon]

37. I always thought I was just a little overweight

Looking back I wasn't. I was also quite pretty and still have some of that, though the jowls and the crows feet, the bags under the eyes and the butt heading for ground all are taking some of that away. I am also looking forward to the invisible ages though probably for different reasons. After I divorced in my mid thirties, I became a hot property in a very small poly community. I began to realize that many people were hanging out with me just to have some of the Avalon wear off on them. The two men I'm with now are not classic beauties but they are gold and they don't see me as a prize, they see me as a good person. Nobody who played the shallow game got to stay around. Nor do I think they would want to now that I'm getting old.

I like having less of what society says makes a person desirable. I like people noticing that I have an incredible mind and a willful personality.

[tavalon]

38. You're right that we can't fix the world but at the risk of going all new agey on you

How about if you block out the ones from the shallow end of the gene pool and hang out with the deeper folk? I'm incredibly picky about who I let into my inner sanctum and I shield out in the world. Most of the time I don't even notice what people around me are doing.

[Marrah_G]

40. Wouldn't it be nice to not have to shield out most of the world though?

That's my point.

This isn't about people close to you.

This is about the society you have to live in.

Even here on DU- there is a judgment made about people every time a weight thread comes up.

[tavalon]

44. Absolutely not!

I was an abused child of alcoholics. I grew antennae that scrapes the ceiling. I don't know if you've ever seen TrueBlood but I'm like Sookie Stackhouse, except that I can't hear actual thoughts but without shielding, I am completely vulnerable to the emotions of those around me. As I started to get mentally healthy, I realized that the only way I could stay healthy on a regular basis was to block out public peoples emotions. They don't just broadcast their emotions, they scream them at the top of their lungs. I sometimes screw up at parties when the energy is fun and I want to ride the wave. My hubbies now full well that when I get home, I will likely go straight to bed or totally lose it because I'm overstimulated from all of the silent shouting.

Also, I'm a nurse and while I'm willing to be open to my patients and their parents and actually get a lot of extra information that way, I'm closed to my fellow nurses. Don't get me wrong, I'm friendly and I doubt any of them know that I'm shielded but you see, I must, for most of my coworkers (and myself for many, many years) are codependent and manipulative.

If I didn't have this extra sensory organ, I think it would be nice to be more open. But I have this thing and I don't really want this thing to go away. I would feel a bit lost without it, though it causes me more hurt than help sometimes.

[hedgehog]

39. I may print out that post and paste it on my bathroom mirror!

:fistbump:

[Lorien]

54. I'm not obese and I know exactly where you are coming from

I'd take the pill that would make me thin and chop five years off my life if it meant that I had a chance of finding someone to love. I'd love to be a more socially acceptable weight; I'm just 15-20 overweight and I'm forever losing it and having it come back. It seems that my body just readjusts to whatever new routine I give it and puts me back at that weight! I'm still making the portions ever smaller, cutting out the carbs and sugars, working out at the gym-t it's never enough to earn serious notice from any man who wants more than a one night stand. They want arm candy, no matter how they look themselves. If we don't look like supermodels then we need not apply.

[Juche]

55. 15-20 pounds?

From an evolutionary perspective, a woman's body is most attractive when her chest and hips are about 1.43x bigger than her waist (or her waist is 0.7 as big as her hips and breasts). Men are most attractive when their waists are 0.75 as big as their shoulders. That doesn't mean people who don't have those proportions are ugly (alot of things can make a person attractive or unattractive and I've been attracted to women with mediocre bodies and found women repulsive who had great bodies), just that that is what a person should be going for if they want to have a 'good body'.

Point being, it isn't so much weight itself as proportions that make someone's body attractive and those proportions can be obtained at 110 pounds and at 170 pounds. Back when I was in college I had 60" shoulders and a 41" waist (0.68 ratio). I was a total fatass by the standards of the fat fascists and about 25% bodyfat, but alot of women seemed to like it.

In all seriousness, I doubt guys are turning you down for 15-20 pounds. At least I hope not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Love yah, hugs

[Juche]

13. I don't know, but probably

If I could take a pill that would improve my quality of life right now and permanently and make me fat, yeah I'd take it. Right now I'd rate my life about a 6-7/10 and if a pill offered me an 8/10 or 9/10 in exchange for gaining 40 pounds then yes I'd take it. But its hard for me to worry about living an extra 5 years when I am barely 30 right now and will not need the benefits of an extra five years until 2070.

[Occam Bandage]

17. How fat? Obesity is a quality-of-life issue.

living about 55 more years, but living them as a morbidly obese person, does not seem like a major upgrade over living about 50 more years, but having a healthy, athletic body.

[madmom]

41. I am 55 years old, I am by all standards obese. I am not unhappy with

my life. I have a happy marriage, two great adult kids and 3 beautiful grand daughters.My SO and I are both retired, now I'm not going to say my life is perfect, but it's damed good and my weight doesn't play to much a part in it.So I would disagree with the quality of life issue, at least for my situation.

[Phoonzang]

42. Assuming the weight couldn't be ever shed......

Yeah probably. I'd just lose a bunch of weight before I took the pill.

Or maybe not. I mean 5 years isn't very much. If we're talked 20-30 years...I'd do it in a second.

[csziggy]

46. Today I would go for a pill that would take 5-10 years OFF my life if I could live without pain

Being fat does not bother me - I've been fat all my life. But until the last ten years I was active, strong and had a pretty normal pain level despite some bad injuries. Now I live with pain every day and as a result of not being able to do even normal things, I have become obese. Cutting calories down to 50-25% does not help much when you go from hard work to next to no physical activity.

Today is particularly bad since yesterday I tried to do some chores around the house and then went shopping. Last night, I took more Vicodin than I normally take in a month (only two tabs, 8 hours apart) and they did NOT knock down the pain, just knocked me out enough to sleep.

So - YES - give me something that will get rid of pain and I will give up YEARS off my life. If I did not hurt all the time I could do the things I want to do. I'd be happier and maybe even lose weight. But being able to do things would make me the happiest!

[Marrah_G]

47. ~hugs~

I know how you feel.

[csziggy]

52. Thank you!

And I understand how you feel - I've been there so much of my life. Just remember, our loved ones and we know what great people we are and that is what counts, not the opinions of strangers! :hug:

[hedgehog]

48. I wish I could help - even low level chronic pain is debilitating.

Just make sure your health care people are addressing the source of your pain and not blaming it on your weight.

[csziggy]

51. We've addressed the direct causes as much as possible

But when I go back for my checkup next month I plan to discuss general pain management with my regular doctor. The immediate thing that has to be addressed is the pain in my shoulder - next month,the orthopedist will send me for an MRI and probably schedule surgery. But my knees are shot - the meniscus in both have been removed, there is no bone sheath left on the surfaces, so I am walking bone-on-bone. And the knee doctor does not want to do knee replacement yet. Maybe in the next decade.

If I weren't spending the money on the doctors and pain meds, I'd get a pool. I may get a cheap blowup one to just get in and kick - exercise without weight bearing could help.

The doctors have been good - we discuss how the weight affects things and how much I can do about it but they do not give me a hard time. I've cut back a lot, gone to more whole grains, fresh veggies and fruit, less meats, few sweets.

After each injury and surgery, I'd gain a little, cut back, and lose a less than I gained until I was recovered. But after I turned 50, I just never really recovered from each surgery and never lost it all. At least my weight has been constant for the last five years, my blood pressure has been down, my cholesterol is reasonable, and I have no signs of diabetes. My biggest worry is osteoporosis since I cannot do the exercising and increase weight work to build up bone.

[No.23]

49. As long as there are drivers who gab on their cellphones...

I am never guaranteed an extra day of life.

[dana_b]

53. no, i would not take a pill to make me thin and reduce my life

5 less years with my daughter so that I can be someone else's idea of beautiful? hell no!!

5 more years and fat, healthy AND happy? sure!!

thin is good but happy is better.

[azmouse]

56. Since I've never understood the 'thin mania' in this country

I'll take the extra 5 years. Fuck all those who would think I'm not a worthwhile human being because I don't wear a size 6 or less.

The smallest size I ever wore was a 12 and that was after dieting my sick. I'm 5'5" and weighed only 135lbs at the time.


I love myself. I've got a great life and I don't have to live my life to anyone else's standards. And honestly, I hope no one would ever make themselves miserable trying to live their life to my standards.
If someone couldn't like me because I wear a 16 or 18 now... fuck 'em.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Depends on how much more you mean

the low weights we have in this country are not healthy... but neither are the 50+ folks we have running around

Now this is purely out of my ass, but as more research is done, I think our "healthy weights" will move slightly up

Perhaps 10-20 pounds anyway

Piece of trivia, we have not revised them numbers in decades alas research moves on

Now self image and all that crap is a whole different matter

[AlCzervik]

63. no and that has nothing to do with it making me fat.