Ive got a fantastic TAX Idea

[TheCoxwain]

Tax refined sugars/ flour at the same rate as Tobacco ..

Couple things will/need to happen..

1) Demand will shift to healthier alternatives - That will lead to greater supply and lower prices for everyone - Infact since we are removing a step from the process - Organic food will become cheaper than refined foods are today ( I think that is obvious, isnt it?)
2) Use some of the money to subsidize healthier foods.
3) This will greatly benefit the health of the nation and will lead to lower heath care costs..
4) Plow the remaining money collected to subsidize health care for the poor ( who are the biggest consumers of refined products)


THIS IS FUCKING NOBrainer

[yurbud]

1. people who survive on junk food will eat you before they eat organic

[TheCoxwain]

3. I am only asking them to pay a fair share of their health care costs ..

and I am taxing the correct source ....


what is unfair about that?

[yurbud]

12. I didn't say it was unfair, just what the public reaction would be

[yurbud]

13. give me Cheetos or give me death!

[TheCoxwain]

14. I know what you mean ..

there are couple people at work ( my friends actually) who eat Burgers and fries for lunch EVERY SINGLE DAY ..


If they come know about my post .. they will kill me before anyone else does.

[yurbud]

15. that's what I meant.

[TheCoxwain]

16. Actually money isnt a issue for my office collegues

My office has free fruit lying on the Kitchen table .. Apples,Bananas, Oranges etc .. sometimes even cut mangoes, melons

but my friends wont touch the fruit with a barge pole .. they head straight to the Vending Machine/ Wendy's when they are Hungry ..

They seem the ideal target group for the tax .... I wont take away your Cheetos -- you just pay more for it ...


Just as smokers grumble but finally pay up - so would Junk Food Junkies ....

[yurbud]

25. even in my junkiest junk food days, Cheetos were over the line--food shouldn't glow in the dark

[Donnachaidh]

2. Do you know WHY the poor are the biggest consumers of refined products?

Because they are CHEAP.

Taxing those products take a source of food AWAY from the folks who CANNOT buy the organic groceries! Are you going to offer a price CRAMDOWN on organics and healthy foods in order to keep these folks FED?

Because all you are advocating is a TAX that will make the poorest of our country STARVE.

I take it you haven't had to avail yourself of a food pantry lately? This certainly IS a nobrainer -- but the absolute REVERSE of what you think.

Sure -- let's make sure these folks STARVE *faster*.

[TheCoxwain]

5. no .. read my OP .. use the money to subsidize healthier alternatives ...

people who still have money to spend on junk food will do so .. the rest will ease into healthier choice for the same reason


IT IS CHEAPER.

[Donnachaidh]

7. how are the subsidies going to be distributed?

Unless you make a very public pushback on organic products that people can SEE at the markets, that subsidy program runs the risk of being another contract to privatize food programs. And it can be screwed with -- see the latest news items on Angelfood Ministries -- they siphoned off 6.2 MILLION for family members, and that money was supposed to go to subsidizing food boxes for the poor.

Make it so the people can buy these products themselves. Any other notion is bound to fail, by winding up in some crook's pocket.

[TheCoxwain]

11. That is a hard problem ..

The final solution has to be a combination ...

1) direct subsidies to certified small organic farmers

2) A health debit card ( something like a food stamp ) that can only be used for purchase of select foods.


I am sure better solutions can be developed.

[Ron Green]

8. They're cheap because they are subsidized and full of petroleum inputs.

If we were to subsidize farmers' markets at the same level as we subsidize corn and soy, poor people would perhaps over time change their dismal eating habits. Admittedly it will take more than price, because there's some real ADDICTION going on with HFCS and heavily-processed junk food. But it would help to change the support structure, and that would require getting rid of people like Vilsack and listening to people like Michael Pollan.

[Donnachaidh]

10. I agree -- farmer's markets NEED to be subsidized

But until THAT is done and we get some REAL help for the poor and the foods they can afford NOW, taxing the products will just make problems worse.

[EOTE]

4. You're right, that certainly is a no-brainer. NT

[csziggy]

6. At the very least cut subsidies for sugar companies

US Sugar does not need our tax dollars!

Actually, I think this is a reasonable idea, though I suspect the refined flour/grain (gotta include white rice in the deal) would be a very hard sale.

[Warpy]

9. Unrefined food will always cost a bit more

because whole foods are perishable. People started eating things like refined flour because the whole grain stuff went rancid within days of milling. Freezing it for storage gets expensive. People started eating white rice because hulled whole rice goes rancid within a few weeks and takes three times as long to cook, important in fuel poor areas. People ate refined sugar because shipping whole sugar cane was more expensive than shipping the refined stuff and refined sugar was cheaper.

People in my part of town already live on beans and homemade tortillas, but the tortilla flour is degerminated so it won't go rancid overnight.

Eating unrefined foods will keep people healthier than eating heavily processed crap like balloon bread with bologna. People under financial stress will try to cling to the familiar, and that's the cheapest processed stuff they can get. However, your idea will only make the cost of the cheapest crap food out there that people are already forced to live on prohibitively expensive.

While it would seem to be nice to be world dictator and dictate what other people should and ought, the only person you need to focus on right now is yourself. Other people are already doing the best they can.

[dysfunctional press]

17. how about you eat what you want, and not try to force your diet on everyone else?

people generally eat what they like, and what they can afford.

you're right about one thing though- it would take a nobrainer to come up with such an idea.

[TheCoxwain]

18. Do you realize Corn & Sugar are subsidized ....someone is getting all high and mighty!!!

Each time you shove a candy up your stupid mouth - remember I am paying for it ..

and I would much rather pay for your spinach ... That is all I am saying....


and if you want to act all Libertarian and Shit ... get the fuck out of here and go to freeperville - coz that is where you belong.

[dysfunctional press]

19. you're sure one to use a phrase like- "someone is getting all high and mighty!!!"

:eyes:
lots of people like corn- and in lots of different forms.
i can't eat it myself, as i'm allergic to dietary starch.
and i try to consume as little hfcs as possible.

btw- where did my post say anything about corn not being subsidized?

[TheCoxwain]

20. I am sorry bout your condition ...

But just to give little context ..All I am arguing for is a saner policy on food (something that will undoubtedly benefit us in the long run)

You said "Everyone should mind his/her business" .... All I am saying is that this is not the case right now ... The choices ( a factor of prices among many other factors)is surely influenced by the subsidies that are currently in place - so I think it is incumbent upon us to shift those subsidies around for greater good.

Atleast have a debate about it.


Again, I am sorry for being a jerk in my previous post.

[dysfunctional press]

23. i don't agree with corn subsidies- i don't agree with sugar subsidies...

i don't agree with almost ANY farm subsidies.

and i didn't sayv that everyone should mind his/her business- i said that people should be allowed to choose for themselves what they want to eat.

i'm all for educating people about their choices as well.

but ultimately- the choice is theirs...kinda...some people are priced out of some items- i have had to DRASTICALLY cut down on my maple syrup intake, as i only use pure, and the price has doubled.

[Thothmes]

26. Are you willing to pay for the cooking lessons

to show people how to prepare these "healthy" foods so that the nutirtional value is not destroyed. It is easy to cook the nutritional value of spinach out if you do not know how to prepare it.

[Ron Green]

21. People don't eat what they like as much as they eat what they know.

It's clear that over the past many decades the big food producers have affected American cuisine to the point where most people eat a processed diet and few people eat a natural diet, which wasn't true before agriculture was bought out.

[dysfunctional press]

24. most people know what they like.

and even most people who think that they're eating a 'natural' diet aren't. we are by nature hunter gatherers. for instance- bread and baked goods and pasta are not part of that diet, and vegetables are meant to be eaten raw- not cooked.

[Ron Green]

27. Who said bread?

We've been on a hunter-gatherer diet for a couple of million years, an agricultural one for a few thousand, but a petroleum diet for only a few decades. My point is that people eat what they are sold, what is artificially flavored to taste good, and what is full of addicitve substances, all supported by the corporate food and media system. It takes some education and some effort to eat in a healthy way, and that's a real shame if not a crime.

[dysfunctional press]

28. i did. as an example- that's why i also said "for instance".

i try to limit processed foods as much as possible- which i have to anyway, because most of it contains 'modified food starch' to one degree or another- and for me that means intense lower back pain. and as far as altering your diet is concerned- physical pain is a great motivator.
my wife and i eat mostly 'whole foods'- dinner might consist of a piece of meat- be it fish, fowl, or fauna- although we are now trying to cut down substantially on red meat- some vegetable(s) and/or fruit and maybe some rice- although that's mostly for her. i'm also trying to cut out refined sugars in addition to hfcs- so i drink a lot of fruit juice, which i generally cut 50-75% with water and pour over ice.
a lot of it DOES come down to education- in the schools as well as parental example in the home. since we don't have kids, and this is the 30th year since i graduated high school- i can't really speak to what goes on in the schools...but it seems to me that they generally don't do that great of a job preparing kids for life on their own- once they've left the parents house, and moved beyond college dorms.
home economics should be a required two-year class for all high school students(same for civics- but that's a different thread), that could cover all sorts of actual home economic issues that the vast majority of students WILL face- not just baking cakes and casseroles- although cooking, shopping and diet planning would certainly be a part of it.
plenty of parents don't do a very good job of preparing their kids for real life in the real world, so perhaps it's time for schools to start doing a better job of it in more areas.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. Is that 'refined', or 'non-organic'?

They are different things.

"Organic food will become cheaper than refined foods are today", no, that's not at all obvious. Organic food means not using various inputs, not "refining less". You have to do other things to get the food to grow, and they may always be more expensive.

Really, the health benefit of unrefined sugar over refined sugar is minimal. It would be better to find a way to get people to eat less sugar, not just less refined stuff.