What do you think of John Walker Lindh?

[Taverner]

At one time "the most hated man in America" - aka The American Taliban....

[rcrush]

1. Brainwashed?

Possible CIA mind control victim?


Or he could just be crazy. I lean toward mind controlled myself.

[Maru Kitteh]

107. That seems silly.

what do you base that on?

[NoPasaran]

2. "The most hated man in America"? Nah, not even in the Top Ten

Just a fuckwad IMHO.

[Taverner]

3. Not today, but when it happened he was

[atreides1]

6. Not by me

Personally, I had no feelings about him one way or the other, I still don't.

[Taverner]

7. Well yeah, but you and I follow this "Rea-son" thing

Not everyone does

[Maru Kitteh]

108. I thought the Clenis was the most hated man

er, and/or man thing (you'd think Clenis was a God, with all the powers ascribed to it) at the time.

According to the wingnuts, poor Georgie was only in office for a totally short nine months and hardly had the time to read any intelligence briefings, and it was right after August and everything, got to play golf and clear brush sometime after all, and why didn't CLINTON stop 9/11 the better part of a year after he left office!

Who else did America hate that year?

Bill Mahar
The Dixie Chicks
The French

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. I don't know, I tend more to "crackpot."

[ieoeja]

4. Evil religious fundamentalist whackjob.

But the treason charge was bogus. He went to Aghanistan to help torture and murder women, not fight the United States. He just got caught in the middle.

[Djinn]

142. maybe he figured he was being patriotic

perhaps he was a Carter/Brzezinski fan, maybe he figured preventing any chance of non US influence in the area was worth supporting torturers and murderers (something our fabulous "allies" in the Northern Alliance where ALSO well adept at). Maybe he concurred with Ziggy, after all "What's a few riled-up Muslims?"

Ah yes globalised Wahhabism, what a brilliant idea that was - ol' ZB is someone I'd definitely go to for "hope & change" foreign policy advice.

[SheilaT]

5. Unfortunate kid who was

railroaded by the Bush Administration. I believe he's serving a very lengthy sentence, and is guilty of nothing more than having been immature an impulsive.

[Raskolnik]

21. Oh, c'mon--the doofus traveled to the other side of the globe to join up with

one of worst groups of humans on the planet--and stayed with that group when it was at war with the U.S. You make is sound like he's a wacky teen that's being punished for getting a "Taliban 4-evah" tattoo on his ass.

He's guilty of a hell of a lot more than being immature and impulsive. He's guilty of violating one of the basic foundations of our social contract, and there should be some fairly stiff penalties associated with that violation.

[BuyingThyme]

38. That's an interesting social contract you've got there.

[Raskolnik]

54. Which part don't you like? n/t

[alfredo]

65. He went there to study Islam, got enlisted as a fighter against the Northern

Alliance. Escaping was out of the question. He probably didn't even know where in Afghanistan he was living. He didn't know that 9-11 happened. His fight wasn't against us, it was against the Northern Alliance.

They found no evidence that he ever raised his hand against the US. When he was captured he was wounded and offered no resistance. He didn't take part in the uprising that killed a CIA agent.

You notice that not much was said about his trial. They had little evidence against him, mostly guilt by association. He got 20 years, but I bet he won't serve the full term.

He was like most new religious converts. They are full of zeal and end up associating with the most radical. He was young, idealistic and naive. He got in way over his head. He should have known better than to go there in the first place. He's lucky to be alive.

[Maru Kitteh]

109. He didn't "get enlisted" - by his own account, he chose his company (Taliban)

While he's no innocent by any means, I'm sure many would have loved to "make an example" of him and would have had him before a firing squad and I'm exceedingly happy that did not happen for reasons that have nothing to do with him. I think his sentence and the time he will likely serve is fairly appropriate. I don't feel sorry for him. I do hope he finds a productive, non-female-hating cause to devote the balance of his life to.

[alfredo]

115. from what I understand he wasn't there to fight us. Yeah, he sure did

pick the most reactionary sect to join.

[Maru Kitteh]

123. He was however aware that the people he joined were fighting the US.

And I reiterate, he *chose* them. He wasn't conscripted or anything.

[alfredo]

126. If you are going to live with them you have little choice but to fight along

side them. Wasn't he there well before 9-11, before we went to war with them.

[Maru Kitteh]

128. who said he had to live with them?

[alfredo]

174. Once you are deep inside of Afghanistan your choices are limited. I think

he got in way over his head. He's lucky to get 20 years.

[timtom]

87. No! It WASN'T "at war" with the U.S. when he went over there.

He was there, and suddenly U.S. troops hit the ground and he got caught in the middle. It could have happened to you. Again: there were no hostilities between the 2 nations when he went over there on a religious expedition.

[Raskolnik]

138. No, it really couldn't have happened to me.

Because I didn't travel to Afghanistan to join up with the Taliban.

[timtom]

167. I see you grasped the point.

Right on, bro!

[Raskolnik]

168. Thanks, I'm glad you see the difference. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. If you are talking of treason... when are we going to prosecute those who

actually did commit it... bush, chenney et al.

From what we know... we was with the Taliban, but most of the information used in the trial was obtained under torture... which son is inadmissible under US Law.


Then again, torture is a violation of US and International law, and the US side of the equation includes the death penalty...

I'm sure you you knew that

[Raskolnik]

139. Lindh's status as a dick does not depend one way or the other on one's opinion of Bush et al

Bush's misdeed do not change the fact that Lindh sought out (at great effort) and voluntarily joined up with the Taliban.

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. And the evidence could not, or should not be brought to any US Court

that little thing about torture

Oh wait, that's why the DA dropped oh so many charges and placed the rest of the case in jeopardy.. for those of us who actually followed it

The family chose not to take it up with the court, after the sentence he was given was pretty mild... he'll be out fairly soon

Again, because of all the misconduct

Oh and by the by, given he was taken in the field... if they had a good case (they blew it) under the Geneva Convention, that pesky document we have been ignoring all this time, is clear on this

Court Martial system with full rights, and evidence rules.

There is a reason why nobody went there.

In the end... he is a victim, and possibly a victimizer, but it is not black and white.

I know, sucks, sucks hard.

[Djinn]

143. so are hundred of US soldiers as we speak

or is getting raped and murdered by the "Northern Alliance" warlords and their goons somehow better than being raped and killed by the Taliban?

[Raskolnik]

144. Could you please be specific?

What are "hundreds of US soldiers" doing "as we speak?"

[Djinn]

149. try reading that again

by referring to the NA and current Afghan "government" I was pointing out that the US are supporting a government which includes some of the vilest, most murderous and most reactionary arsehole Warlords of Afghanistan's recent past. A bunch of pricks YOUR TAXES installed into government.

US soldiers are THERE to protect that "government"

That is what they are doing there - supporting and defending a backward, violent, misogynist government - how is that different to what you accuse JWL of?

On edit - clearly I should have said that's what TENS OF THOUSANDS of US troops are doing there.

[Raskolnik]

154. Our progress in Afghanistan stalled, and has clearly given ground.

We need to change our policies, and I'm not sure if we will be able to affect a meaningful change to something resembling a modern, functional state in Afghanistan.

Do you think that makes Lindh joining the Taliban equivalent to the U.S. troops in Afghanistan now?

[Djinn]

156. you clearly know NOTHING about Afghan

history and politics if you think "you" EVER made progress in Afghanistan.

YOU INSTALLED WAHHABIST WARLORDS IMMEDIATELY AFTER ENTERING - OBAMA WANTS TO SUPPORT THOSE SAME WARLORDS.

Honestly go and find your nearest Afghan Association (or check out RAWA they even have a webpage given I doubt you'll ever travel to Kabul - and don't bother asking - the answer is YES, possibly why I'm not clueless on this shit) and learn SOMETHING about which you speak. Your utter ignorance on what the US has DELIBERATELY AND CONSISTENTLY done to the people of Afghanistan all the while expounding "concern" for them is quite revolting.

Do you think that makes Lindh joining the Taliban equivalent to the U.S. troops in Afghanistan now?

JWL supported the unelected government of a bunch of violent Wahhabists - US soldiers are supporting the SAME THING

If you ever want to avoid sounding woefully ill informed regarding Afghanistan you could do well to start here http://www.rawa.org/index.php

[Raskolnik]

160. So your answer is yes? n/t

[Djinn]

161. Can you not read?

I believe I've said they're morally identical several times.

Given that I've answered your question (more than once and even before you asked it - sigh) could you please explain where on earth you get your rosy view of Afghanistan's US installed rapaciously criminal warlords and why supporting THEM is OK?

Honestly do you know ANYTHING about Afghanistan at all? I can give you some contacts to stay with (Afghan hospitality has to be seen to believed) inside and outside Kabul, you know if you ever want to not sound like a military spin doctor each and every time you post on this subject :eyes:

[Raskolnik]

162. My view of the current situation in Afghanistan is anything but rosy.

But given that the current situation in Afghanistan isn't the subject of the or this thread, I didn't feel the need to lay out my entire feelings on every aspect of our occupation of Afghanistan.

Unfortunatly, you make a lot of assumptions.

[Djinn]

163. no I don't, I can read though

YOU said "our progress has stalled" suggesting (unless English isn't your strong point) that you think there WAS AT SOME POINT progress, how exactly (given you're big on wanting answers from other posters) was installing the EXACT same kind of people as the Taliban EVER progress??

No-one asked you to "lay out my entire feelings on every aspect of our occupation of Afghanistan." It's a simple question:

Once again for the hard of comprehension; please explain why supporting ONE group of violent Wahhabi nuts (by JWL) is evil but supporting a DIFFERENT bunch of Wahhabi violent nuts is OK?

What the hell is the difference?

Not asking for your feelings I'm asking for logic, consistent logic, which (unless you care to actually answer) doesn't seem to be your strong point

[Raskolnik]

166. As bad as the warlords are, I think the Taliban are/were worse.

You can cite a hundred examples of horrible actions by our "allies" in Afghanistan, and I will agree with you that we made some horribl strategic decisions that are coming back to haunt us now. It will take time to unwind those decisions, but hopefully we can do it.

(and just so you know, you don't have to be this snotty with me--I don't think we actually disagree that terribly about what is going on in Afghanistan)

[Djinn]

212. that is because you are ignorant of the situation

this is nothing to do with being "snotty" it's a fact you keep demonstrating - it's to do with actually KNOWING what's going on there and having MANY Afghan friends who disagree with you (not to mention Human Rights organisations) It's got to do with sitting with women telling their stories about being pack raped on the command of people YOUR government put into office.

We absolutely DO disagree about what's happening in Afghanistan, you can "think" whatever you like about the warlords but you are patently and DEMONSTRABLY wrong.

[freddie mertz]

220. Does this go for the Vietnam war as well?

Should Jane Fonda or Joan Baez (and many others) have been imprisoned for traveling to North Vietnam and expressing sympathy and solidarity with the victims of American bombing?

[closeupready]

25. That's what I think. And any guy who's been a young guy

who's been a drunk or raised hell or gotten up to no good can perhaps see what frame of mind he was in when he went off to 'find himself'.

[Raskolnik]

35. We're not talking about getting drunk and raising hell--

we're talking about going half-way around the world to join up with a group of people whose ideology he found appealing, and staying with that group when it was at war with the U.S.

We're not talking about a kid drinking bottle of Mad Dog and punching out the window of his Celica yelling about how nobody understands poor little Johnny.

[closeupready]

89. No but you are talking about impulsive kids.

He was not only impulsive, but unlike others who may have had similar ideas, he had the means to follow through. In other words, at heart he wasn't all that different than a lot of other kids.

[Maru Kitteh]

110. Yeah, those silly kids who join cults that mandate the stoning of women who are raped for "adultery"

They're just EVERYWHERE.

[Iris]

211. yep. What you two said. n/t

[jkirch]

39. I'm with Sheila.

[SheilaT]

96. Thank you.

He was like 18 or 19 when he went off to Afghanistan. I have a son exactly the same age. They can be impulsive and show very poor judgment about a lot of things at that age.

My son at that age was picked up on possession of marijuana -- a very common thing. He cheated his way through the year of "diversion", graduated high school (somewhat to my surprise) and then went off to college where he turned around. He graduates this coming May, and had he been locked away for a long time because of being stupid at age 17, his life would have been lost. Instead, it looks like he will have a normal life. He'll get a job, probably have a family somewhere down the road. The important thing is that he's not being totally screwed by some dumb choices made as a teen.

John Walker Lindh isn't being given the same chance.

[TahitiNut]

61. I agree. He became the whipping boy for the Wah on Terra.

Railroaded.

[lumpy]

103. Hear hear

v

[Truth2Tell]

79. Bingo.

Impressionable kid who was exploring ideas, religion, himself and the world. Got mixed up in a bad situation. Then, like so many others, he was viscously abused by our criminal government and made into a symbol for American hate propaganda. (You can see by the responses to this thread that the propaganda works and the hate is still alive and well.)

[Auggie]

93. Agree

[spiritual_gunfighter]

219. Agreed as well

JWL made a piss poor choice but many kids that age make piss poor choices, some have huge consequences some not so much. I think that JWL was a whipping boy for the Bush admin. and the phony "war on terror". Did he make a bad decision? Sure he did, but so did I at that age. Were his actions reason to be sentenced to 20 years in a federal pen.? I don't really think so.

[pmorlan1]

151. Not a Terrorist

That's my view too. He was a kid searching for meaning and because his focus was Islam he ended up going to the extreme end of Islam because of his immaturity. He thought he was doing the right thing for his religion by helping the people who he thought were the most religious muslims. I don't believe for a minute that he was out to fight the U.S. and what's more I don't think the Bush administration believed that either. He was demonized because 911 had just happened and he was used by the Bush administration just like they used Tillman and others. His sentence was way too long and hopefully at some point, if the truth comes out, he will be released early.

[Captain Hilts]

8. Dumb as a post. nt

[live love laugh]

197. Bingo. nt

[jody]

9. Just one example of any person young or old looking for someone to add meaning and direction to

their lives.

Sometimes the leader they follow wins and they get to be part of the victorious movement about which the winners write glorious myths and fantasies of daring deeds.

Sometimes the leader loses and the victors write marvelous tales about how evil they were and how God or some other divine being used her/his forces to defeat the evil demons.

That also may describe politics.

ON EDIT ADD: Expect some stupid posts. :shrug:

[Captain Hilts]

11. A religion that completely subjugates women has appeal to a total loser. nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. Yep

and the wise person who reads your post also knows that not all Muslim sects denigrate women. Sadly, the US doesn't do anything to support those liberal sects who not only believe in sexual equality but also separation of church and state.

[Dorian Gray]

135. That is a shame

I do wish he searched amongst your branch of Islam (sufiism, right?).

A much different outcome for his family would have ensued.

I can't comprehend why he went the Taliban route. It seems insane!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

137. God only knows why he chose Wahhabism

But I will say that those branches of religion that tell a person what to believe and give stark, black and white choices (this is good/this is evil) are attractive to many, including those who are so very unsure of themselves. Ultimately, our relationship to God, or Higher Self, or Great Mystery, is a very personal one, and the journey one that is our own responsibility. I just hope that his time in prison is a time of reflection where he does get to face himself and that he discovers peace.

[jody]

191. For me, I discovered peace within, not from the opinions of others. I don't know how many can make

that personal journey which is physically short but mentally long.

My personal journey ended with an epiphany of a common denominator among all great religions and a keystone for the humanist movement, the Golden Rule.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

213. I know what you mean

All I can do is bow before you, and recite a bit of Rumi--

Oh for a friend who knows the sign
Who'll mingle all their soul with mine

Namaste, my friend.

[Djinn]

145. and instead actively supported

and INSTALLED into government a bunch of murderous reactionary warlords - at least Lindh just lined up next to them - the US government (and Obama only wants to further entrench these creeps as Afghanistan's "rulers") put them into office.

I was sending money to RAWA every month a decade before most people who squawk about the Taliban had even heard of the nightmare the Afghan people have been subjected to for 30 years. I'm an atheist, feminist, hard drinking FEMALE union organiser. I have NO love for the Taliban but it drives me insane that people think what WE have replaced them with is any better. It's offensive to the very people they're feigning outrage on behalf of.

(sorry ayeshahaqqiqa - off topic from your eminently sensible post and one that sadly appears to need posting anytime any mention of Islam pops up on DU)

[lunatica]

10. He wanted a spiritual home but found hell instead

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. Naive young man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time

who became a scapegoat and filled the Bush criteria for showing Americans that Muslims all are scary terrorists. It was not easy being an American Muslim in those days--death threats and destruction of property were common.

[marylanddem]

18. You've hit the nail on the head - naive.

[Raskolnik]

23. Naive? Really?

He made the choice that he wanted to join a group of some of the most despicable fundamentalist d-bags on the planet, and had to expend a hell of a lot of energy to do so. I'm not saying that he can't ever rejoin our society, but he's paying the price for making a pretty fucked-up decision.

[Djinn]

147. do you feel the same way about any soldier

who doesn't take the conscientious objector route and ends up in Afghanistan? To make it a more fair comparison (given JWL wouldn't have faced jail had he not gone over there) what about an American who AFTER the invasion of Afghanistan JOINED UP VOLUNTARILY.

You are aware that the government your soldiers helped install and now "defend" are ALSO some of the most despicable fundamentalist d-bags on the planet if not then you probably shouldn't be expounding on this thread so much - if you ARE aware, do you feel the same about US troops?

[H2O Man]

46. Naive and confused.

He made some seriously bad choices. But based on what I've read, I do not think he is a terrible person.

[TahitiNut]

Just a kid at Woodstock in 1969 who fell through a wormhole and wound up in Afghanistan.

:shrug: Tragic. He avoided Viet Nam and found that.

[H2O Man]

83. Well,

I think attending Woodstock was a good thing. Avoiding Vietnam, too.

What this kid did was clearly very wrong, and he was in way over his head. There are consequences for doing stupid things, and he's paying a price. But I do not think that I'd write him out of the human race quite yet. Young people are known for doing stupid things, including being mislead. That's why they draft young people.

[TahitiNut]

84. Well,

... since I was in Viet Nam in 1969, I couldn't go to Woodstock. When Lindh went to Afghanistan, they were still 'officially' our beloved allies in the rosy aftermath of the expulsion of the Soviets. To all reports, he was seeking a spiritual experience, not a political one.

Our well-funded CIA couldn't seem to discover a way to 'infiltrate' the Taliban or al Queda ... but a California teen just walked in. Embarrassing.

He was brutalized and tortured. He doesn't belong in prison, imho.

[H2O Man]

86. One of my friends

signed up for the military and was preparing to head overseas at the time when Woodstock took place. He had been the type of guy who "hated" hippies, and went to the concert to pick fights. It changed him. (He was awed by Hendrix, most of all.) But he thought it was too late, and still went to Vietnam. He saw and participated in terrible things. These experiences changed him, too.

He became one of the strongest people I've had the pleasure to know, later in life.

[TahitiNut]

88. Believe me

... I would've loved to have been at Woodstock ... and that's not merely in retrospection, either.

[Codeine]

60. Oh come on.

There were plenty of Muslim groups he could have joined up with, but he chose one of the foulest and most disgusting. The shitfucks that blew this magnificence up:



Fuck them. Fuck him.

[Raskolnik]

67. Oh, come on yourself.

He was just a crazy, mixed up kid. Who hasn't travelled half-way around the world to join up with group of incredibly brutal fundamentalists? It's not like the horrible aspects of their ideology are what *attracted* Lindh, right?

Besides, Bush did bad things.

[Djinn]

153. the destruction of Bamiyan

caused more outrage in the US than the funding and arming of the mujaheddin in order to destroy the first semi progressive government Afghanistan has ever had all because they supported by the evil Soviets. Never mind that for the first time ever women could work and go to school - argh reds under the bed.

Even now when US taxes are upholding a warlord stuffed government that continues to brutalise the Afghan people it's STILL Bamiyan that gets peoples attention

[ieoeja]

For a person who claims to be such an expert on Afghan history...

... you seem to be awfully of ignorant of Afghan history. Women's rights have waxed and waned several times over the course of the past century. The last Shah as well as the first President who replaced him were extremely progressive (relative to Afghanistan) on women's rights.

But then the communist revolution took place 31 years ago. While you state in another post that you have followed Afghan history for 30 years.

So which are you more upset at? The defeat of communism, or the retreat on women's rights?


P.S. If my post seems in-civil, might I suggest that has something to do with the particularly vile and nasty tone of every post of yours that I have read in this thread?

[Djinn]

215. this post seems to be in reply to mine though you've hit

reply to original

You think I'm not well aware that women's rights have waxed and waned in Afghanistan (what have you done for RAWA and Afghan women's refugee organisations - when were you last there?)

I'm not "upset" about the defeat of Communism - where on earth do you get that from? I'm "upset" that many Americans seem to be of the belief that things are better in Afghanistan for women because we installed a bunch of warlords. It's offensive to the women suffering under the regime you prop up.

P.S. If my post seems in-civil, might I suggest that has something to do with the particularly vile and nasty tone of every post of yours that I have read in this thread?

Having worked with victims of US paid for torture, including Afghan women - I have a pretty high threshold for what constitutes "vile" posts on a message board don't even come close. Be as uncivil as you like, wont bother me in the slightest

[Codeine]

187. Very few folks on this board have much brief

for the mujaheddin, so that's a big ol' red herring, my friend.

[freddie mertz]

179. Nice statues, nothing to do with Lindh.

Did he place the dynamite? Did he order it?

Even if he did, is that a crime worth 20 years?

What about the people who pulled down the statues of Lenin after the fall of the Soviet Union?

Is political or religious iconoclasm a war crime now?

[mitchum]

13. A sucker with a really shitty lawyer

[BeyondGeography]

14. I think this is one of the things that happen to kids who have trouble getting laid

[Taverner]

16. HAHAHAHA you know, you do have a good point

[closeupready]

28. I do think there's a correlation.

n/t

[MissMarple]

19. Poor guy. They went way over board making an "example" of him. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

112. Were that true, he'd be next door to the Rosenbergs right now.

And, poor guy my ass.

[dkofos]

20. An idiot caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Raskolnik]

26. Jebus, people! It's not like he was at a kegger that got busted!

He travelled half-way around the world to join up with the Taliban. He didn't get roped into a neighborhood gang, and he wasn't forced into a life of crime by poverty. He made the choice that this was the team he wanted to play for. He choose very poorly for a number of reasons.

[BuyingThyme]

29. And joining the Taliban was so wrong because...?

Because you've been brainwashed into thinking they had something to do with attacking us? Whose position is worse? His or yours?

[Raskolnik]

30. Are you serious? Ok, I'll play along: Joining the Taliban was wrong, in and of itself,

because voluntarily joining a group of fundamentalist whack-jobs that subjegate women, attempt to destroy any semblance of culture, and make every effort to turn the clock back by a millenia or so is a bad thing. Honestly, is this something that you really dispute? Would you have considered someone voluntarily joining the Nazis in 1937 because they found the ideology appealing "wrong" on its face?

You don't even need to get into the fact that he chose to remain with the Taliban after they were at war with the U.S. He was a dick long before then.

[BuyingThyme]

37. Again, whose position is worse, his or yours?

He supported fundamentalism to oppress women. Your support of fundamentalism kills all Muslims, including women.

[Raskolnik]

41. His. Definitely his.

I don't pretend to be without sin, but I'm not the one that travelled half-way around the world to join up with the freaking Taliban.

Are you so wrapped up in your opposition to Bush and his policies that you can't even recognize that the enemy of your enemy may still be a piece of shit?

(And, to suggest that I support killing all Muslims is just a lazy attempt to blow up this discussion. I won't dignify it with a response.)

[BuyingThyme]

45. The Taliban has never been our enemy. You have been brainwashed

into openly supporting mass murder. Your position is worse. Should you be locked up in a prison?

[Raskolnik]

51. Wow. I am perfectly capable of recognizing that the Taliban's ideology was evil

without supporting mass murder. If you can't hold those positions simultaneously, I'll thank you not to project that inablity to others.

[BuyingThyme]

55. If you do not support mass murder, why do you condemn a man for resisting it?

[Raskolnik]

59. You apparently think that the Taliban are/were just another victim,

no different than the civilians caught in a crossfire in Kabul or Basra.

That, frankly, is a ridiculous position.

[BuyingThyme]

62. No difference at all. Unless you believe the nonsense about

democracy being on the march. Or that mass-scale death penalties should be handed down by insane Chimps.

[Raskolnik]

64. "No difference at all."

And with that, I will wish you a good evening.

[BuyingThyme]

66. Yes, once we get down to the foundations of our country,

of our Constitution, people like you always run.

Hey, are you headed down to the local jailhouse to shoot some folks?

[Raskolnik]

71. "are you headed down to the local jailhouse to shoot some folks?"

Really? This how you interact with people? Does this usually get you the attention your looking for?

[BuyingThyme]

73. That's your position, isn't it? It's okay to murder bad people?

Or did I misunderstand you?

Oh, wait. I see... As long as you can get other people to do the murdering, you don't feel responsible for the murder.

[freddie mertz]

200. He's referring to a lynch mob, my friend.

When you suggest a person deserves to be jailed for joining or even fighting for a group or ideology you don;t like, in a place that was at that time not involved in a conflict with us, then it seems that you are walking to close to the edge of endorsing "thought crime."

And that, historically, has ended up in witch-hunts, lynchings, and farces like the so-called "trial" of Lindh.

[Raskolnik]

203. Your definition of "thought crime" is rather unique.

Lindh was not punished for believing Muhammed was the prophet of Allah, nor for sympathizing with the fuckheads in the Taliban. He was punished for aiding them when they were at war with the U.S. That is pretty damn far from a "thought crime," but you get credit for trying to squeeze a buzzword into the discussion.

[freddie mertz]

206. The facts were less than clear.

He "confessed" to stuff, of course, while in military custody, and after being seriously wounded.

Then he bargained a plea to only two charges, which amounted to "serving in the Taliban army and carrying weapons."

That doesn't mean he wasn't a scapegoat.

[Raskolnik]

207. None of that amounts to a "thought crime." n/t

[freddie mertz]

217. Thought crime seems to be YOUR accusation against him.

Am I right?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. I missed the part where he said he wanted to kill all Muslims. Can you point it out?

[BuyingThyme]

111. The U.S. military does not discriminate between boy and girl Muslims.

They murder any Muslims that get in the way.

[Maru Kitteh]

113. Is this right?

If someone finds fault with JWL because he went to extraordinary lengths to join and take up arms for a cult that mandates the murder of females for the "crime" of being raped - that means (according to you) that they excuse the policies of GWB?

[BuyingThyme]

114. Can't make any sense of your post.

[Maru Kitteh]

124. I am wholly unsurprised.

Effort, comprehension and non-binary thought processes seem to be rather low on your list of priorities in this thread.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

152. LOL

Great response. Gotta love that binary thinking!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

141. Could you point out where he said he wanted to do that?

[pmorlan1]

159. I Hope You Will Read More Info About Lindh

Are you serious? Ok, I'll play along: Joining the Taliban was wrong, in and of itself,
Posted by Raskolnik

because voluntarily joining a group of fundamentalist whack-jobs that subjegate women, attempt to destroy any semblance of culture, and make every effort to turn the clock back by a millenia or so is a bad thing. Honestly, is this something that you really dispute? Would you have considered someone voluntarily joining the Nazis in 1937 because they found the ideology appealing "wrong" on its face?

You don't even need to get into the fact that he chose to remain with the Taliban after they were at war with the U.S. He was a dick long before then.

I guess you never made a dumb mistake in your life, right? We have all kinds of kids that join fundamentalist groups that subjugate women right here in our own country so that argument is a non-starter. In my view he was just an immature person searching for meaning. He somehow latched onto the religion of Islam and with the fervor of a new convert he ended up joining up with the Taliban because he was under the misguided notion that this group had the purest form of Islam. He fought with them against the Northern Alliance to fit in and didn't even know about 911 because he was in the boonies in Afghanistan. When the band he was with came under attack from the Americans the real Taliban deserted the foreigners like Lindh and let them fend for themselves. He wasn't fighting against the Americans he was just trying to get his ass out of a war zone. Do you think getting out of a war zone is easy? Do you really think that if the Americans are shooting at you that you can just stand up and explain that you're an American and they'll stop shooting long enough to listen to you?

Reading all of your comments gives me the impression that you've swallowed the Bush administration media campaign against this guy without getting any further information from the other side. You remind me of those people who see some show on TV where they convict the person in the media (Nancy Grace show) by pushing the prosecution's evidence and ridiculing the defense evidence. You've seen how the Bush administration has lied their ass off over and over and yet you're willing to believe the story about Lindh, hook, line and sinker?

Here's a piece on Alternet that gives the story that the Bush administration didn't push about Lindh. I hope that you will take a few moments to at least listen to the other side of the argument before you adopt the Bush version of what happened.

http://www.alternet.org/story/31211/

[dkofos]

31. DS

[Raskolnik]

43. I'm not sure what that means. n/t

[guruoo]

91. Just a few facts to consider...

Lindh arrived in Pakistan during, or shortly after February of 2000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh#Youth.2C_conversion_and_travels

And per my previous post, US was still funding the Taliban as late as May '01:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5336072&mesg_id=5337313

US invasion began on October 7 2001
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Prelude_to_invasion

Lindh was captured on November 25, 2001
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh#Capture_and_interrogation

"In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper - either here in the United States, or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere - that mentioned any aspect of the September 11 plot."
-FBI Director Robert Mueller, April 19, 2002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PENTTBOM

[Stinky The Clown]

22. When I **did** thnk of him way back when he was in the nooz, I thought he ranked right there with ..

.... fence posts and rocks for sheer dumbness. What i think of him now is pretty much nothing.

Why do you ask? Is he in the nooz again?

[Dukkha]

24. the whole "liberal parents" meme in the media was asinine

as the Taliban was as anti-liberal as you can get. perhaps this was his way of rebelling against his liberal parents by joining the whack job right ring Taliban. He was just as easily manipulated as the Jesus Camp kids.

[kestrel91316]

27. I DON'T think of him, actually. Except when some fool brings him up.

Thanks for making me get my dander up over that sorry POS again.

[Taverner]

69. Sorry I made you think of other people...

Next time I'll stick to abstract concepts

[ljm2002]

32. A couple of things...

...first, yes, young and dumb for doing what he did.

Second, he was railroaded. He only fought when directly attacked, and his US attackers were actually quite rough on him. Long before 9/11 and our invasion of Afghanistan, he had been offered to become part of Al Qaida and fight the US, and he had declined.

Third, the "liberal" meme was ridiculous. Yes his parents were liberal. His father divorced his mother to be with ... another man. This probably confused the kid and so he reacted in the way he did, seeking a life with rules to replace the confusion that he felt.

That's my take, anyway. At the time, with all the patriotic fervor, and I must admit I felt it too -- at the time, even though I recognized he was a confused young man, I thought 20 years was an okay sentence. Now, not so much. I guess sure, he could have expected to spend some time behind bars, if only because of the vagaries of war and the wrong place / wrong time syndrome. But now I think he should be released for time served.

I wonder what he thinks of everything now. I'd be interested to know, actually. It could go any of a number of ways, he might be hardened in his Islamic beliefs, he might look at it now and wonder what the f*** he thought he was doing, or anything in between.

Just my $.02.

[mike_c]

33. victim of Bush's misbegotten war on terror scam....

I hope he gets out soon. He should never have been jailed, IMO.

[Raskolnik]

40. There are millions of people that qualify as real victims of Bush's wars

People that didn't have a choice, were caught in the crossfire, or didn't do anything wrong deserve sympathy and have a legitimate reason to take issue with Bush (and the U.S.).

This dipshit is not one of those people. He is not a victim.

[mike_c]

44. respectfully, we'll simply have to disagree on that point....

on edit: You've been calling him names all over this thread. Is that the substance of your argument?

[Raskolnik]

47. The fact that a young man voluntarily joined up with a group

of some of the most hateful, backward, vicious bastards on the planet makes him deserving of scorn. The substance of my argument is that he made a choice, and had to expend considerable effort to follow through on that choice, to join up with the Taliban. That is a bad, bad thing, in and of itself.

If a young man chose to travel from the U.S. to Germany in 1937 to join up with the Nazis because he found their ideology appealing, do you think that young man would have earned some derision?

I think he should get the chance to rejoin our society, and I certainly don't approve of any sort of torture nonsense, but he did a very bad thing, and he's now paying the price.

The fact that Bush is a jackass doesn't negate JWL's misdeeds.

[wickerwoman]

85. Derision, sure. Twenty years in jail with no evidence of specific misdeeds? No.

As far as I know, according to the Geneva Convention it is not illegal for a national of one country to fight with the army of another country even when that country is at war with his/her country of origin.

How would you feel about a young German who fought for the US in 1937 because he believed in their ideals? Would the Nazis have had the right to throw him in jail for twenty years for taking up arms against his native country?

He wasn't acting as a spy; he was a schlub. If he wasn't American, they probably would have just taken his gun and let him go, or he would have spent a few months in a detainment camp.

So why all of this additional venom just because he's American. He didn't choose his country of origin. If he hated it here, he had the right to leave and look for another life elsewhere. I don't like the Taliban, but how many of them are spending 20 years in jail? Even though they're the enemy, we make a distinction between taking up arms and wearing a uniform to fight for something you believe in and murdering someone in the street. JWL was acting as a soldier, he should be treated with respect like any other captured Taliban soldier.

[Maru Kitteh]

121. If he hated it here he had the right to renounce his citizenship. Funny, how he chosse to retain

his citizenship and his constitutional rights.

Your Nazi analogy holds about as much water as a sieve that's been peeled off the barn after being used for shotgun practice, for so many reasons.

Mr. Lindh pretty much got what he deserved. He was young and stupid, but he was 18< and possessing not only of free will, but the means and determination to follow that will to join a cult of fundamentalist assholes who oppress females at every opportunity and mandate the stoning to death of even young girls if they are victimized by rape, to save the "honor" of the family. He also understood the cult he joined was in a war against the country he was a citizen of.

Not so very long ago, Mr. Lindh would have been placed before a firing squad, and many called for as much. It's very unlikely he'll serve 20 years, or anything close to it. Mr. Lindh has escaped death many times over, and he will have time to build a comfortable life, like the comfortable childhood he came from. He's a lucky idiot.

[wickerwoman]

131. I'm not saying he's not an idiot

and I'm certainly not defending the ideals of the Taliban.

I'm saying that from a legal standpoint there is absolutely nothing wrong with a foreign national fighting in a conventional way for another country's army, even when that country is at war with their home country. They may have been shot 100 years ago but it would have been equally unjust then. He was not acting as a spy, he didn't personally commit atrocities, he never switched sides or acted as an informant and there is no evidence that he ever actually killed anybody. Even if he had, he was wearing a uniform and fighting as part of a regular army just like all the Afghans in his unit who walked away without spending a day in jail.

It may be unlikely that he will serve 20 years but that is his current sentence. Even with parole, he'll serve 17 years. He's been sitting in jail for seven years already and there is no legal basis for any of it as far as I'm concerned.

The fact that I or you or anyone else dislikes him personally or dislikes the ideals that he fought for does not change his fundamental right to fight for them in a currently internationally legally sanctioned way without being given a draconian prison sentence. He was a POW and he should have been treated as a POW (not tortured and *not* left with a bullet in his leg for eight days duct-taped to a gurney in a shipping container). The "enemy combatant" bullshit was just an excuse to get around the Geneva Convention.

Also, although he was technically still a US citizen at no point did he give this information to his captors even when it would have guaranteed him better treatment. So it's a bit unfair to claim "he chose to retain his citizenship and constitutional rights" as if he whipped them out the second he was captured to ensure his own safety.

[EFerrari]

157. We were not at war when he went there. Get your facts straight

before you run around executing people.

[Djinn]

155. what about a young man

who voluntarily joins an army that has been committing mass murder for centuries - one that hasn't been able to claim "self defense" in any of it's military adventure for at least 50 years?

Do you really think being slaughtered by a cluster bomb is any better than having your head cut off by the Taliban?

Do you really think being killed by NA thugs or goons dispatched by the US installed Uzbek & Tajik warlords is preferable to being killed by the Taliban?

Just want to know if you're consistent.

[arcadian]

50. No, but the guy acted on what he believed in.

I think your problem with him is that he took up arms against the united states. In the end, when history is written, Lindh will be remembered, Raskolnik will not. Have you ever fought hard for your convictions?

[Raskolnik]

52. So being remembered for joining a group of medieval fundamentalists

is somehow noble? If the choice is being remembered for fighting for unquestionably fucked-up convictions or being forgotten, I'll happily take the latter and sleep quite well at night, thank you.

[arcadian]

57. So you were cool with the Taliban when they were known as the Muhajadeen?

Remember? Rambo fought with them. Maybe Lindh took those movies too seriously. :D And I'm just saying that Lindh will be remembered and when examined through the lens of history up against tyrants like Bush, Lindh will look like a boy scout.

[Raskolnik]

63. I'll thank you not to assume my position on the wisdom of supporting the mujahideen

And apparently you aren't able to look at in any other context than a discussion of Bush.

[arcadian]

77. Well did you support the Muhajadeen?

Actually Bush supported the Taliban, he met with them when he wanted the pipeline across Afghanistan, they only became the enemy when Bush decided we could just take by force that which we couldn't get through negotiation.

[Raskolnik]

146. Our support of the mujahideen was reactionary and short-sighted.

And your reference to the legendary trans-Afghanistan pipeline as the "only" reason the Taliban became our enemy betrays a startling lack of objectivity.

[arcadian]

48. I agree with mike_c

[slackmaster]

34. I think he's a dumbass

[geardaddy]

36. I just realized...

He has the same middle name as Shrub.

:tinfoilhat:

[spanone]

42. i didn't hate him, i didn't know him. he could be more dumb than dangerous

[JI7]

49. pathetic, loser asshole, but not "the most hated man in america"

[alfredo]

53. "John Walker's Blues" Steve Earle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISFNTRaXRiI

[LWolf]

94. Yep. A favorite on my playlist. nt

[alfredo]

97. He's quite a writer. Glad he is on our side.

[Lex]

117. EVERYONE should hear this song.

One of my favorites.

[wuushew]

56. Innocent

I don't understand by what mechanism U.S. law exists in the mountains of Afghanistan. What ever reasons he may have had for being in that country I have no reason to condemn him.

[reprehensor]

58. He was demonized...

and singled out for special treatment by Ashcroft. A lawyer who tried to suggest some rationality in the approach to Lindh's handling was steamrolled by Ashcroft as well;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3016072

"Jesselyn Radack could be anyone. That is, anyone who happens to believe that doing the right thing trumps political convenience. Her story began while she was working at the Professional Responsibility Advisory Office (PRAO) at the Department of Justice (DOJ), in 2001. She thought she was doing her job by delivering requested advice very early on in the case of John Walker Lindh.

Not so.

By offering advice that inhibited the post-9/11 persecution and demonization of Lindh, Radack was actually just getting in the way. Getting in the way of a highly politicized DOJ that had decided to steamroll over Lindh, and didn't care about collateral damage. Radack became a different kind of casualty in the War on Terror.

Her book, The Canary in the Coalmine: Blowing the Whistle in the Case of "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh is Jesselyn Radack's personal account of what it feels like to be on the business end of a vindictive scapegoating conducted by your own government. Her narrative flows quite well and is easy reading, even when the ballet steps of legal dogma need to be illustrated. There is no heavy reliance on legal jargon to over-complicate the story, although there are a couple of passages that have to be read very carefully, in order to grasp the magnitude of Radack's ordeal.

Some of her experiences are frankly Orwellian and carry a distinct sense of dread… you can feel your stomach sink in empathy when she goes to retrieve her printed emails from the Lindh file, only to find the file purged. Her documentation gone down the Memory Hole, as it were. Meanwhile, singing phenomenon John "Let the Eagle Soar" Ashcroft was pontificating about the Lindh case, blithely grandstanding and publicly transmitting a story that stood in stark contrast to the facts that Radack remembered.

Slick with Crisco oil, Ashcroft does not receive a very flattering portrait in Radack's memoir, as he casually averts his eyes from the factual history of Lindh's case, as surely as his eyes turn from the naked breasts of marble statues. (Perhaps if Radack would have attended one of Ashcroft’s breakfast prayer meetings, things may have gone easier for her.)

After Radack discovers the purged Lindh file, and takes steps to rectify the situation, her future at PRAO at first becomes uncertain, and then, certainly short. Her manager falls into line with Ashcroft's vision for the DOJ and assumes the ideological tunnel-vision that must accompany it. Relations at the office become frosty, followed by a scathing review of Radack's work performance that was not part of her regularly scheduled reviews, and designed to take current and future employment at PRAO completely off the table...

Continued...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3016072

[cally]

68. I believe he was tortured and unfairly incarcerated

I think he deserves a new trial and probably let off for time served. I almost didn't open this thread because I get upset when I think about him. I know he has very little chance politically of being let off, but he was a scapegoat for the fear and hatred after 9/11.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

175. Cally!

I haven't seen you in forever! :hi:

How are things?? Good???

And I agree completly with your post -- those who were not on DU at the time have clearly bought into the complete hogwash that Bush/MSM were pushing about him. It disgusts me. :puke:

I am sooo happy to see you!!!

[Kitty Herder]

70. I think he was just a confused kid trying to find himself.

Like a lot of kids in that situation, he started hanging around with some sketchy characters. But I don't think he knew what was going on.

[Codeine]

74. The Taliban were more than "sketchy." nt

[Kitty Herder]

82. I agree. But I don't think Lindh realized what he was dealing with. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

125. He wasn't new - he read Taliban "scholars" and his heart became attached

(in his own words)........... attached to fundamentalists nutjobs who believe it's O.K. to kill little girls for learning to read at school.

[cliffordu]

72. He's a putz

[ContinentalOp]

75. I think if he were from a nice "Christian" family from say Texas he would have been "saved"

They would have brought him back, cleaned him up, "saved" him, etc. Hell, maybe they could have used him as a CIA asset*.

But since he was from evil, liberal San Francisco he made for a really convenient narrative. He was the best of all possible worlds: a muslim, a terrorist, a Californian!, a hippie!, perfect! Get the pitchforks ready!

* maybe he WAS a CIA asset? :shrug:

[guruoo]

76. "We're just trying to learn the facts about this poor fellow." ...

"Obviously, he has been misled."
George Bush to Barbara Walters, ABC, 12/05/01
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/lindh/uslindh051602westdec.pdf

Lindh just "some misguided Marin County hot-tubber" -GHW Bush...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jul/16/worlddispatch.usa

...

Alhough there is no evidence that the CIA directly supported the Taliban or Al Qaeda, some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Interservices Intelligence Agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Muslim volunteers. The U.S. poured funds and arms into Afghanistan, and "by 1987, 65,000 tons of U.S.-made weapons and ammunition a year were entering the war."<20>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh

[trudyco]

78. Don't know him so can't say, but he was a kid so his brain wasn't even fully there yet.

Probably was brainwashed just like the Nazi kids were. I tend to err on the side of leniency with kids under the age of 30. ;-) They only have half a brain (or 90% or whatever).

Once they have the prefrontal lobes completely developed it's another story. Still, even then, brainwashing is a real thing.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

80. He chose to go and fight for the Taliban.

I don't think that deserves a 20-year prison sentence, but I do think that he's scum, like any one else who freely chooses to support a group so opposed to women's rights, gay rights, freedom of religion, freedom of speech etc.

[EFerrari]

129. When he went to Afghanistan, the Taliban were our allies.

He went there to study religion, not to fight anyone and was swept up and later, tortured and railroaded by BushCo.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

136. What does that have to do with it?

The Republican party are not merely America's allies, they're actual elected Americans, and they're still bad people because of the political positions they hold, and the Taliban are far, *far* worse than them.

[Joey Liberal]

81. We should have whacked him nt

[guruoo]

90. May '01: Bush provides $43M to Taliban for 'opium eradication'...

Bush's Faustian Deal With the Taliban
Column Left
By Robert Scheer

May 22, 2001
Enslave your girls and women, harbor anti-US terrorists, destroy every vestige of civilization in your homeland, and the Bush Administration will embrace you. All that matters is that you line up as an ally in the drug war, the only international cause that this nation still takes seriously.

That's the message sent with the recent gift of $43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the most virulent anti-American violators of human rights in the world today. The gift, announced last Thursday by Secretary of State Colin Powell, in addition to other recent aid, makes the United States the main sponsor of the Taliban and rewards that "rogue regime" for declaring that opium growing is against the will of God. So, too, by the Taliban's estimation, are most human activities, but it's the ban on drugs that catches this administration's attention.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010604/20010522

How Washington Funded the Taliban

by Ted Galen Carpenter

Added to cato.org on August 2, 2002

This article appeared on cato.org on August 2, 2002.

he United States has made common cause with an assortment of dubious regimes around the world to wage the war on drugs. Perhaps the most shocking example was Washington's decision in May 2001 to financially reward Afghanistan's infamous Taliban government for its edict ordering a halt to the cultivation of opium poppies.

When the Taliban implemented a ban on opium cultivation in early 2001, U.S. officials were most complimentary. James P. Callahan, director of Asian Affairs for the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, uncritically relayed the alleged accounts of Afghan farmers that "the Taliban used a system of consensus-building" to develop and carry out the edict. That characterization was more than a little suspect because the Taliban was not known for pursuing consensus in other aspects of its rule. Columnist Robert Scheer was justifiably scathing in his criticism of the U.S. response. "That a totalitarian country can effectively crack down on its farmers is not surprising," Sheer noted, but he considered it "grotesque" for a U.S. official to describe the drug-crop crackdown in such benign terms.

Yet the Bush administration did more than praise the Taliban's proclaimed ban of opium cultivation. In mid-May, 2001, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced a $43 million grant to Afghanistan in addition to the humanitarian aid the United States had long been providing to agencies assisting Afghan refugees. Given Callahan's comment, there was little doubt that the new stipend was a reward for Kabul's anti-drug efforts. That $43 million grant needs to be placed in context. Afghanistan's estimated gross domestic product was a mere $2 billion. The equivalent financial impact on the U.S. economy would have required an infusion of $215 billion. In other words, $43 million was very serious money to Afghanistan's theocratic masters.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3556

[laststeamtrain]

92. The 'money' quote from Ann Coulter.

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors," Conservative Political Action Conference, January 2002. Coulter later clarified what she meant; "when I said we should "execute" John Walker Lindh, I mis-spoke. What I meant to say was 'We should burn John Walker Lindh alive and televise it on prime-time network TV'. My apologies for any misunderstanding that might have occurred. "

Lynn Cheney & Condi Rice were in the audience applauding.

I don't know but does JWL have a case against any of these people for publicly advocating his murder? Or should he just giv'em the ol' Bush Doctrine preemptive strike?

[LWolf]

95. I think he's a sad, lost human being,

serving as a scapegoat for xenophobic Americans who love to hate and NEED enemies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. He did stuff, but most of what we did to him to find what he did

makes the evidence sketchy at best

So... I'd say the most hated man in America is a war victim... even if he did some things as well... but he's a victim too

And that is the catch 22 of warfare...

Some folks would like ti to be black and white, but it is not

[scarletwoman]

101. He totally got a raw deal and should be released from prison a.s.ap.

He was totally a victim of the U.S. national hysteria. He should have simply been sent home to his parents with a stern warning not to mess around with foreign religious zealots.

sw

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

102. Terrorist

[Dramarama]

104. There are actual murders I hate a little more

[deaniac21]

105. dumbass

[Maru Kitteh]

106. Cults around the world are overjoyed when they find empty, impressionable vessels like Mr. Lindh.

Sometimes the result is fairly benign. Sometimes the joinee is merely separated from their worldly possessions and released. This is pretty much your best-case scenario, cult wise.

Sometimes the joinee ends up mutilated, crippled or dead attempting to meet the demands of the cult leader. Sometimes the whole cult self-destructs and sometimes the cult does something like bomb people on the bus, just trying to get to work.


Lindh said his heart became attached to the writings of the Taliban scholars. Really? Decapitating women for being raped, keeping all females uneducated and in a state of domestic and sexual slavery was that inspiring?

I don't waste any time feeling sorry for the pampered little brat.

[MrSlayer]

116. Treasonous fool who should have been hanged.

It's not too late really.

[Lex]

118. Just a kid caught in Bush's propaganda machine.

nt

[Raskolnik]

148. How did this kid get caught up in Bush's propaganda machine? n/t

[Withywindle]

119. What I've always thought about him.

"Damn, he must REALLY, I mean REALLY hate women. A LOT." :scared:


Just a kid out to "find himself"? Oh, come on. It's not like he smoked a bunch of pot, hitch-hiked around and went to live in a Buddhist monastery or a commune or something. If he was drawn strongly to Islam, there are plenty of other places to study the many non-hateful, non-batshit-insane versions of it. I have no idea what his particular pathology was, but chalking it up to just "being a kid" is ridiculous.

[terisan]

120. Victimized by Bush Administration and Should Have Sentence Commuted nt

[Marr]

122. I think he was a religious zealot. They tend to do stupid things.

Not surprising, since being a religious zealot is in itself a stupid thing. I consider wild religious fervor to be a sign of mental illness, personally.

[Kickin_Donkey]

127. A scapegoat. He should be pardoned ...

Like a lot of American youth, he went abroad to find himself. Got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Free John Walker Lindh

[XemaSab]

130. I don't know him personally, but I have friends who went to his school

A dumb kid in the wrong crowd.

[eridani]

132. It was apparently his own damned fault that he was born 15 years too late

He didn't do a damned thing that our own government wouldn't have paid him for in the 80s

http://100777.com/node/231/print

According to Ahmed Rashid, a correspondent for the Far Eastern Economic Review, in 1986 CIA chief William Casey committed CIA support to a long-standing ISI proposal to recruit from around the world to join the Afghan jihad. At least 100,000 Islamic militants flocked to Pakistan between 1982 and 1992 (some 60,000 attended fundamentalist schools in Pakistan without necessarily taking part in the fighting).

John Cooley, a former journalist with the US ABC television network and author of Unholy Wars: Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism, has revealed that Muslims recruited in the US for the mujaheddin were sent to Camp Peary, the CIA's spy training camp in Virginia, where young Afghans, Arabs from Egypt and Jordan, and even some African-American “black Muslims” were taught “sabotage skills”. The November 1, 1998, British Independent reported that one of those charged with the 1998 bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Ali Mohammed, had trained “bin Laden's operatives” in 1989.

These “operatives” were recruited at the al Kifah Refugee Centre in Brooklyn, New York, given paramilitary training in the New York area and then sent to Afghanistan with US assistance to join Hekmatyar's forces. Mohammed was a member of the US army's elite Green Berets.

These camps, now dubbed “terrorist universities” by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.

Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, “The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism — car bombing and so on — so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.”

[Edweird]

133. That he's lucky to be alive. Treason gets the death penalty. Other than that

I couldn't care less.

[underpants]

134. Confused kid who got himself in a bad situation and f'd up royally

[Djinn]

140. as a general rule I don't

but if pressed at I'd say he was a deluded bourgeois kid who got in WAY over his head, at worst he made a fucked up decision to support murderous, misogynist, Wahhabi evolutionary throwbacks - which wasn't a crime (in either Afghanistan nor the US) at the time he did it.

Anyone thinks this middle class white boy was used for anything other than "cannon fodder" and propaganda purposes by the Taliban has no idea of the politics and ideology of the region and people of which they speak.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

150. Dumb ass, bored kid who fell in with a group.....

....that believes in suppressing basic human rights in the name of religion. Not very progressive, and I don't understand the rush of some to defend him here.

[Raskolnik]

158. A question for those in this thread who think Lindh is primarily a victim:

Let's say that in 1935, a young American man begins reading National Socialist literature and decides that Hitler and the Nazis have some wonderful ideas. He likes their ideology so much that he leaves his home in the U.S., learns German, and moves to Germany to join the National Socialist Party.

Now, let's say that in 1944, this young man is found by U.S. soldiers in Belgium carrying supplies for a company of Waffen SS. What do you think should have been done with this troubled young man?

Should he have been sent home to his family in the U.S. with a stern warning not to get into any more monkeyshines? Were his deeds excused by the fact that our Soviet allies committed large-scale atrocities both during and after the war? Were his deeds excused by the fact that our use of strategic bombing killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

[Djinn]

164. A question for those in Raskolnik

Let's say that in 2005, a young American man begins reading any mainstream media and decides that invading and occupying a foreign nation that imposed no threat to his own and supporting a violent criminal "government" was a wonderful idea. He likes the idea so much that he leaves his home in the U.S., goes to the recruitment office and soon enough is off to Bagram.

Now, let's say that in 2006, this young man is found by RAWA soldiers (unfortunately they don't exist but you seem to have no issue with non facts) in Kandahar carrying supplies for a company of other US soldiers. What do you think should have been done with this troubled young man?

Should he have been sent home to his family in the U.S. with a stern warning not to get into any more monkeyshines? Were his deeds excused by the fact that he helped swap one bunch of criminal arseholes for another?

Turn around is fair play and all that, maybe not as easy nor pedestrian as the hoary old Nazi comparison but fair play nonetheless

[Raskolnik]

165. You didn't even attempt to answer my question. Why is that?

I will be more than happy to take a crack at answering yours as soon as you extend me the courtesy of answering mine.

[Djinn]

214. You've already demanded answers from me

which I've given - I'm still asking you the same one which you CAN NOT answer with any consistent logic - as for your tawdry dragging in of the Nazi card - well that would very much depend on whether fighting for the Germans was against US law. What JWL did WAS NOT!

However I'm NOT crying over JWL's imprisonment - I save my bleeding heart for the thousands of Afghans sold to the Americans and languishing in Gitmo or secret CIA gulags in across the world. JWL was a bourgeois moron but the wee problemette is that that is NOT A CRIME in the US.

So in essence the answer to your Nazi question is "YES - IF it were illegal at the time he did it"

Any chance you could answer mine? I wont hold my breath.

[Taverner]

169. Look up the German American Bund

There were a bunch of cases just like that, and when American soldiers captured them, they were summarily shot.

Is this right? Wrong? I dunno - but its a conversation worth having.

[Raskolnik]

170. Yes, I'm well aware of the Amerikadeutschers--that's why I asked the question.

The analogy isn't a perfect 1:1, but it's close enough to consider.

[Taverner]

171. Its close enough

There's the hate: just replace women (and other tribes) with Jews

But there are differences - Hitler was hell bent on world domination. Wahabbist Islam is to some extent, but its hard to take them seriously. Still, intent is intent.

At the same time, how much did Lindh know and how much was he a part of things? How much military support did he give the Taliban when taking Kabul?

No easy answers here...

[ieoeja]

172. We sent Charles Lindbergh to the Pacific. (Lindbergh/Lindh!) nt

[Raskolnik]

173. And had he chosen to enlist with the Nazis in 1935, what should have happened to him? n/t

[ieoeja]

176. Depends on what he does in 1942.

I have never read/heard a single statement claiming that Lindh knew the US and the Taliban were at war. I thought most people nowadays believe Tokyo Rose should never have served jail time as she was drafted against her will.

Never met her myself, though I know a lot of people who did (it was only after she died that I learned that she spent her post-jail years living and working not far from my home). So maybe understanding is just a Chicago thing (ex-Tokyo Rose, ex-Weathermen Prof. Bill Ayers, ex-Black Panther Rep. Bobby Rush, ex-Detroit Pistons Bad Boy Dennis Rodman, etc).

Sen Prescott Bush continued doing business with the NAZIs even after the US declared war. He was merely fined.

[freddie mertz]

178. Nothing much should (or probably would) have been done with him.

Ask him a few questions, try to get what info he might have had, then let him go.

Carrying messages is not a war crime. If he left the US and effectively switched sides, he might not be the sort of person we all "like," but he is not guilty of espionage in the scanrio you describe.

No crime, no charges, no issue.

[Raskolnik]

181. I don't think you can reasonably state that nothing should (or would) be done in punishment

to American citizen caught carrying messages for the Nazis by U.S. troops in wartime Europe.

[freddie mertz]

182. I just did.

Leave him in Germany, revoke his passport if you like.

But the scenario you describe involves a minor figure in an insignificant role.

Try again?

[Raskolnik]

185. And I'm pointing out that yours is a quite unreasonable position on its face.

Think about what you're saying: you think that a U.S. citizen voluntarily aiding the Nazis (by carrying messages, carrying supplies, whatever) in wartime Europe would have received no more than a revoked passport? That's just ludicrous.

I'm not saying the person in my hypothetical would/should be tried for war crimes, but he certainly is going to receive (and should receive) a bit more than a stern lecture. We're talking about a pretty basic part of the social contract, here: if your tribe is fighting with another tribe, and you choose to side with the other tribe, you generally don't get welcomed back with open arms by your original group.

[freddie mertz]

188. Tribalism

This seems more a matter of emotion than reason.

As is the passion for vengeance.

I am especially interested in inhabiting those spheres.

[Raskolnik]

189. I think this particular aspect of "tribalism" is pretty justified, really.

There are a few basic tenets of the social contract that, when violated, need to draw some harsh penalties in order for your society to function. One of the chief being that if you throw your lot in with a warring society, you've got a price to pay.

And I'm not particulary emotional about Lindh--I don't think he's indicative of any dangerous trend in disaffected upper-middle-class youth, nor do I think that he's the criminal of the century. I think he was drawn to the worst aspects of an backward group of violent fundamentalists, and he's paying a pretty stiff price for it.

I actually hope that he is able to do something productive with his life after he gets out. I don't know that the chances of that are great, but here's hoping.

[freddie mertz]

192. Lindh was a helpless sap offered as a sacrifice

To a population of frightened, rabid dogs.

He had no hope at all of a fair trial, having been convicted by the howling wolves of cable news long before.

An aside: by your conception of the "tribal/social contract," it would appear that an actively anti-Nazi German national like Marlene Dietrich was a traitor to Nazi Germany.

There were many German exiles who served in the US as intelligence operatives, providing translations, details on persons and locations, etc.

I guess they were traitors too.

Your illogic becomes clearer when you reverse the (sadly obvious) "Nazi" analogy.

[Raskolnik]

196. Helpless? Unless I am mistaken, he was not forced to go to Afghanistan and join the Taliban.

He did that of his own free will, and was completely free to choose otherwise.

And yes, if Germans aiding the Allies were caught doing so during the war, they were going to get punished pretty severely. Now, given that the Nazis were the Nazis, those "traitors" were, of course, morally justified for aiding the allies, and a good case can be made that they were not betraying Germany, but were trying to free it from the control of the National Socialists. If you think that Lindh's joining the Taliban was morally equivalent to Dietrich's opposition to Hitler, I'm not sure our values overlap enough to have a productive conversation about this.

My opinion of Lindh does not depend on the jackasses on cable news trying to whip up fervor for the war(s). He was wrong independently of Coulter, et al's efforts to portray him as the worst villian of the day and any of the other fool's calls for his execution. Those people can be idiots and Lindh can be deserving of some form of punishment.

[freddie mertz]

198. It wasn't Coulter, It was everyone.

There were NO voices raised at the time that I ever saw. It was all "American Taliban," all the time.

My point is that the whole trial and conviction was a product of hysteria. I do not see how they can be separated, as you seem to be arguing.

You don't convict a person for "values," or beliefs, you convict for criminal action.

Which there wasn't in this case.

It was a kangeroo court. A video lynch mob.

[Raskolnik]

199. If you didn't listen to any competeting voices at the time, I don't know what to tell you.

Yes, Bush et al tried to whip up fervor using Lindh. YEs, a lot of people went quite a ways overboard in calling for his torture/execution/life imprisonment. None of that excuses what he did. You want to argue about Bush, about idiots on CNN and Fox, and damn fool front-page articles in Newsweek, feel free, but that's not what I was discussing. I was discussing what Lindh did, why it was wrong, and why he deserved to be punished for it.

[freddie mertz]

202. What in fact did he "do"?

I am still not clear on that myself.

Seems he got rounded up after being wounded during the American invasion.

It is not even clear he knew who was shooting at him.

[Raskolnik]

204. So you don't even know what he was accused of, nor what the facts are,

but you're willing to strenuously argue how unfair his punishment is? Oy, vey.

[freddie mertz]

205. I know what he was accused of and convicted of.

He was rounded up, then wounded in the prison uprising. He ended up pleading guilty as we all know.

But the evidence was pretty shakey and remains controversial.

I hope that he is able, someday, to appeal the thing so we can all get a better idea of what actually happened.

[Raskolnik]

208. So, stripping away all the propaganda, all the news coverage,

if he did what he pled to (more or less that he was carrying a weapon and some grenades for the Taliban, but didn't fire on U.S. soldiers and didn't actually participate in any attacks) do you think that he deserves punishment?

[freddie mertz]

218. No.

He was already there in that capacity when we invaded.

Even if he knew he was fighting Americans before his capture, he was caught in an impossible situation.

[freddie mertz]

177. He was exploited by the media and Bushco as an object of hate

Lindh was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

His case was exploited to feed the maw of ignorant hatred and the media's desire to provide a scapegoat after 9/11.

He was Emmanuel Goldstein, and the loop of the film of his wounded, mostly naked body was replayed endlessly on the media "hate break."

He should be pardoned, released, and compensated for his undeserved suffering, not to mention the theft and manipulation of his image by the forces of darkness.

[lumberjack_jeff]

180. He should serve the rest of his 20 year sentence. n/t

[rucky]

183. Misguided. n/t

[southernyankeebelle]

184. This young man was in the wrong place at the wrong time and

he didn't fire a shot. I think he was a political prisoner thanks to Bush. He could have been brought back how and should have been investigated further and maybe have done some time but not 25 to life.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

186. A once fearsome bogeyman erected by the fearmongers.

Now, a has-been replaced by one of the endless replacement bogeymen used to scare us into war.

[WildEyedLiberal]

190. I have a hard time dredging up sympathy for ANYONE associated with the Taliban

I think Rasnolik's (spelling?) comparison to an American expat who joins the Nazi party in 1935 is pretty apt. He may not have done so with the intention of waging war against the US, but he still voluntarily allied himself with a heinous and evil regime. Not a lot of sympathy points there. :shrug: That said, I don't think he's this horrible terrorist plotting to kill Americans, either. So I'd sentence him to jail for a few years, let him ponder why it's a bad idea to go join aggressively terroristic and violent fundamentalist movements, and then let him get on with his life, hopefully with lessons learned.

[camera obscura]

209. I totally agree with you. It was a heinous thing to do, but people still overreact.

[eridani]

193. If you did not protest against our support of fundie whackjobs in Afghanistan in the 80s--

--then just STFU. Lindh didn't do a damned thing that our own government wouldn't have paid him for in the 80s.

http://100777.com/node/231/print

According to Ahmed Rashid, a correspondent for the Far Eastern Economic Review, in 1986 CIA chief William Casey committed CIA support to a long-standing ISI proposal to recruit from around the world to join the Afghan jihad. At least 100,000 Islamic militants flocked to Pakistan between 1982 and 1992 (some 60,000 attended fundamentalist schools in Pakistan without necessarily taking part in the fighting).

John Cooley, a former journalist with the US ABC television network and author of Unholy Wars: Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism, has revealed that Muslims recruited in the US for the mujaheddin were sent to Camp Peary, the CIA's spy training camp in Virginia, where young Afghans, Arabs from Egypt and Jordan, and even some African-American “black Muslims” were taught “sabotage skills”. The November 1, 1998, British Independent reported that one of those charged with the 1998 bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Ali Mohammed, had trained “bin Laden's operatives” in 1989.

These “operatives” were recruited at the al Kifah Refugee Centre in Brooklyn, New York, given paramilitary training in the New York area and then sent to Afghanistan with US assistance to join Hekmatyar's forces. Mohammed was a member of the US army's elite Green Berets.

These camps, now dubbed “terrorist universities” by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.

Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, “The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism — car bombing and so on — so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.”

[Throd]

194. run-of-the-mill dumbass

[libodem]

195. I seriously doubt he knew one thing about

the targeting of the WTC with airplanes. In fact I don't think enough of what was happening right here in this country, with the flight schools, the plane schedules, the living arrangements of the 19 hijackers, who funded them, that they partied on Abramhoff's gambling boats, that Prince Bandar's family sent them money, that most of them were Saudis, that Cheney, was running training exercises related to NORAD, that very day, that Israeli reporters were standing under the WTC with video cams that very day, that certain Spook agency Assets, were directed to find intelligence from Iranian United Nations Emissaries about flying planes into buildings. The investigation was shoddy and just a big fucking cover-up for that whole Bush Cabal to find a reason to start wars and profit from them. Where is the release of Sibel Edmond's gag order. That kid was an misguided idealist who got caught in a part of the world he was trying to identify his age-related development had led him. He's like all those, Afghan farmers we bought on bounties, from their enemy tribes neighbors, to detain and torture, to prove we are blaming the right perpetrators. It's all Dick Cheney's evil doing and I think history will eventually discover that. I just hope it doesn't take 30 years.

[Raskolnik]

201. "Israeli reporters were standing under the WTC with video cams"

I see. I knew the Jews did it.

[Warren DeMontague]

210. He was the right wing's wettest dream; somehow conflating "marin hot tub liberals" w/ Muslim fundies

That whole sideshow was idiotic. I think he was a dumb, misguided kid who made some bad moves, but also should win some sort of award for worst timing and wrong/place wrong/time in human history.

If he hadn't turned up right after 9-11, it never would have been such a circus.