President Obama's answer to a question about charter schools and effective teachers.

[ColbertWatcher]

From this morning's online townhall meeting (from the White House)

(I added bold text to make it a bit easier to read)

Q Hi, Mr. President. Thank you so very much for having me, a public school teacher from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, here to be with you.

THE PRESIDENT: What's your name?

Q Bonnee Breese.

THE PRESIDENT: Good to see you, Bonnee.

Q Thank you. I'm from Overbrook High School. I have to say that, because I know all the children are watching. (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: All right. Hello, Overbrook. (Laughter and applause.) There you go.

Q Thank you. Two questions in reference of education, since this is a major part of your budget plan and platform. Definitions of charter schools and definitions of effective teachers -- how do you plan to define those two categories? And are you willing to have teachers on the platform, in the committees, as a part of developing those plans?

THE PRESIDENT: Absolutely. Well, as I said, the teachers are the most important person in the education system. So if we don't have teacher buy-in, if they're not enthusiastic about the reforms that we're initiating, then, ultimately, they're not going to work. So we've got to have teacher participation in developing these approaches.

The definition of charter schools is pretty straightforward. And that is that in most states you now have a mechanism where you set up a public school -- so this is not private schools, these are public schools receiving public dollars -- but they have a charter that allows them to experiment and try new things. And typically, they're partnering up with some sort of non-for-profit institution.

So, in Chicago, you've got charter schools that are affiliated with a museum, or they're affiliated with an arts program, and they may have a particular focus. It may be a science charter school, or it may be a language academy. They are still going to have to meet all the various requirements of a state-mandated curriculum; they're still subject to the same rules and regulations and accountability. But they've got some flexibility in terms of how they design it. Oftentimes they are getting parents to participate in new ways in the school. So they become laboratories of new and creative learning.

Now, there are some charter schools that are doing a great job, and you are seeing huge increases in student performance. And by the way -- one last point I want to make about these charters -- they're non-selective, so it's not a situation where they're just cherry-picking the kids who are already getting the highest grades; they've got to admit anybody. And typically there are long waiting lines, so they use some sort of lottery to admit them.

Some of them are doing great work, huge progress and great innovation; and there's some charters that haven't worked out so well. And just like bad -- or regular schools, they need to be shut down if they're not doing a good job. But what charters do is they give an opportunity for experimentation and then duplication of success. And we want to encourage that. So that's the definition of charters.

In terms of teachers, how we measure performance -- as I said before, I have been a critic of measuring performance just by the administering of a single high-stakes standardized test during the year, and then the teacher is judged. And that was, I think, the biggest problem with No Child Left Behind. It basically said that you just go in -- (applause) -- here's the standardized test, we'll see how the kids are doing; and because it doesn't even measure progress, you could have a very good teacher or a very good school in a poor area where test scores have typically been low, and they are still punished even though they're doing heroic work in a difficult situation.

The other problem is that you started seeing curriculums and teachers teaching to the test -- not because they want to, but because there's such a huge stake in doing well on these tests that suddenly the science curriculum, instead of it being designed around sparking people's creativity and their interest in science, it ends up just being, here's the test, here's what you have to learn -- which the average kid is already squirming enough in their seat; now they're thinking, well, this is completely dull, this is completely uninteresting. And they get turned off from science or math or all these wonderful subjects that potentially they could be passionate about.

So what we want to do is not completely eliminate standardized tests -- there's a role for standardized tests. All of us have taken them and they serve a function. We just don't want it to be the only thing. So we want to work with teachers to figure out how do we get peer review, how do we have evaluation -- I was just talking to Bill Gates yesterday and he was talking about the use of technology where you can use videos to look at really successful teachers and how they interact with their students, how they're monitoring students, et cetera, and then you bring in the teachers at the end of the day and, just like a coach might be talking to his players about how you see how on that play you should have been here and you could have done that -- same thing with teachers.

But they don't get that feedback. Usually, especially beginning teachers are completely isolated. They're in this classroom -- they're sort of just thrown in to sink or swim. Instead, let's use a variety of mechanisms to assess and constantly improve teacher performance.

Now, one thing I have to say -- I know you'll admit this, although maybe you can't on TV, but in private I'll bet you'd admit that during the -- how long have you been teaching?

Q Fifteen years.

THE PRESIDENT: Fifteen years. Okay, so you've been teaching for 15 years. I'll bet you'll admit that during those 15 years there have been a couple of teachers that you've met -- you don't have to say their names -- (laugher) -- who you would not put your child in their classroom. (Laughter.) See? Right? You're not saying anything. (Laughter.) You're taking the Fifth. (Laughter.)

My point is that if we've done everything we can to improve teacher pay and teacher performance and training and development, some people just aren't meant to be teachers, just like some people aren't meant to be carpenters, some people aren't meant to be nurses. At some point they've got to find a new career.

And it can't be impossible to move out bad teachers, because that brings -- that makes everybody depressed in a school, if there are some folks -- and it makes it harder for the teachers who are inheriting these kids the next year for doing their job.

So there's got to be some accountability measures built in to this process. But I'm optimistic that we can make real progress on this front. But it's going to take some time. All right?

[Deja Q]

1. An excellent point:

My point is that if we've done everything we can to improve teacher pay and teacher performance and training and development, some people just aren't meant to be teachers, just like some people aren't meant to be carpenters, some people aren't meant to be nurses. At some point they've got to find a new career.

Of course, when all those jobs are offshored, what's a person to do? Lie in the streets and die?

[ColbertWatcher]

3. I didn't like that he accepted the premise that bad teachers are everywhere.

I felt by taking that route he was pandering a bit.

[ejpoeta]

7. he didn't say they were everywhere. but there are teachers, and i have come across a few in my

schooling, who should not have been teachers. and they exist in every school i have ever been in.... and i have been in many schools.

[ColbertWatcher]

13. But why single out teachers as the only part of the problem that needs solving? n/t

[ejpoeta]

45. he isn't singling out teachers. he talked about a lot of things...

giving teachers the tools to teach the kids.... not teaching to the test.... getting rid of teachers that are perhaps not suited to teaching is only part of the overall goal. he has always talked about a variety of things with education that need fixing.... funding was a big one.... not teaching to the test was a big one... PARENTS was a very big one. he never singled out teachers in anything.

[Diane R]

8. There ARE bad teachers everywhere. Why on earth won't teachers admit this?

[ColbertWatcher]

10. The conversation should start with the system of education.

Why blame the teachers first, foremost and at the exclusion of blame for any other part of the system?

It smacks of corporatism.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Because it isn't true

:shrug:

[TornadoTN]

15. That's true but not as pervasive as many believe. However, it is a growing problem in this economy

Like I said in another post, many teachers that are labeled "bad" are just victims of the horribly inefficient and failing system.

However, I do agree that there are quite a few bad ones out there that don't need to be in the profession. That problem is only getting larger with so many people going into teaching because its perceived to be a "safe" place to find work. My wife is a teacher of 8 years and she has a student teacher this year that has no business being in teaching. He's a former investment banker with one of the bailed out banks that got cut loose. My wife says its no wonder that the banks failed with a guy of this caliber in charge- and now he's aspiring to be a teacher.

I really think NCLB should be scrapped and a new plan put in place. Obama is adhering to it for some unknown reason, but we would be entirely better off starting from scratch and addressing the issues in a pragmatic and competent way, issue by issue.

[MadHound]

20. Everywhere? In every single school? In every single district? Prove it!

And please, define what a "bad teacher" is, because many of the definitions that I've heard simply boil down to the fact that the teacher dared to discipline an unruly child, or the teacher insisted that the child had to do homework, or some other bullshit like that.

So please, before you make such sweeping generalizations, define what a "bad teacher" is, and then prove your broadbrush statement. Otherwise all you're doing is playing the blame game with teachers, which while popular, is completely untrue and does teachers, children and our education system a grave disservice.

[ColbertWatcher]

24. You deserve a thank you too!

THANK YOU!!!

[MadHound]

27. And thank you too!

I'm always happy to see people who still care for and support our public education system and our teachers. Coming from a family of teachers, and currently in school to become one myself, it has always amazed me how much teachers get dumped on, and how little support they get. So again, thanks for your support:toast:

[ColbertWatcher]

34. We are all--everyone of us--where we are today because of a teacher.

It seems some of us forget that too easily.

[Deja Q]

35. You're right...

Of course, the bad teachers damn well need to be let go too...

[MadHound]

36. And they generally are let go

It is absurdly easy, even with tenure, for an administrator, school board or parent to get any teacher out of the school system.

[ColbertWatcher]

40. It's easy to fire someone, or haven't you been paying attention?

I know that you have, but I still gotta ask.

[TornadoTN]

29. The real "Bad Teachers" are the ones that do nothing in class or focus entirely on athletics

We all know the type - the coach who teaches History and spends more time going over game plans than he does actually teaching classes.

Or a teacher who brings her personal life into the classroom and takes it out on the kids through various ways.

Those who are merely there for a paycheck and couldn't care less about making a difference or impact.



There are probably a few other examples, but luckily, they are few and far in between - maybe one or two in a school. By in large, most teachers care a lot about their kids and their profession. Sadly, they rarely get the recognition that they deserve.

[MadHound]

31. There's no denying that there are bad teachers.

However the general public likes to portray the situation as one where every school is rife with bad teachers when the reality of the matter is how you stated it, "few and far between."

It has always seemed to me that teachers are scapegoated so that the public doesn't have to face up to the fact that there are crappy parents out there, and that while we pay pious lip service to education as being one of the most important fields out there, we don't open our wallets and back up that statement. In countries like Japan, whose education is rated above ours, their secret is in their follow through. Their society venerate teachers and pays them quite well. Their school facilities are up to date and well supplied. Thus the students they turn out are well educated. We could learn a lot from that, but sadly the general public doesn't want to pay the taxes to achieve a better education, and simply substitute teacher bashing instead.

[TornadoTN]

32. You are exactly right. Teachers are merely the scapegoat in a more complicated mess nt

[Diane R]

44. I am a former teacher. I once taught with a man who had 35 years seniority, tried to choke.....

....first graders who struggled reading (multiple times and with witnesses), and was allowed to teach until he decided to retire...with great fanfare. And yes. The administration knew about the choking. They just decided to do nothing, hoping he would retire soon. And this was in a very low-income neighborhood with a lot of needy children.

Is that the kind of 'discipline' you want for 'unruly' children? Do you want your child to have a teacher like that?

I taught ten years. I raised three kids, one who became a doctor at age 26. I've seen great teachers, I've seen horrible teachers.

I cannot fathom why the concept of weeding out dangerous teachers is so threatening to some people.

[MadHound]

46. The concept of weeding out bad teachers isn't threatening,

In fact I would love to pay teachers in a manner comparable to doctors in order to attract the best and brightest so that we don't have as many bad teachers as we have now.

However it is your contention that you find bad teachers everywhere, that sort of broadbrush assumption is not true, and worse, you know that, and all you have to back that up with is anecdotal evidence. Well, we can all find anecdotal evidence to support our contentions, for every teacher who-is close-to retiring-and-choking-the-kids that you can dig up, I can find you five saints and two martyrs who got fired for teaching the truth. What I want are numbers to back up your contention, not anecdotal evidence, and until you can produce them I am forced to contend that you are simply another member of the clueless public who finds it easier to blame the teacher than look at the true problem, how we as a society and a governing body have dreadfully failed to handle what is one of the most important issues in our culture, how best to teach our children.

Instead of funding education in a manner which compliments the lip service paid to it, instead we put funding issues mostly in the hands of the public and their willingness to pay more in tax money. Instead of consulting experts we allow education to become a political football and anybody who can gin up enough votes gets to implement whatever wacky agenda they want, be it teaching creationism to banning Harry Potter, to cutting arts and instituting religious studies.

I also take issue with the attitude you exhibit, one much like the rest of the public. You go after the teacher first time, every time without any sort of acknowledgment that there are other large issues adversely affecting our quality of education, issues like the administration, NCLB, the lack of money, the lack of facilities, trying to teach in the whirlwind of social, political and economic pressures that are brought to bear on education in a manner, shape and form that is experienced by no other profession out there. Yet despite all of this you choose to single your scorn first and foremost on the teachers. Why?

[GaYellowDawg]

47. Because people totally blow it out of proportion.

I've been on here arguing in favor of teachers a whole lot. I've had the opportunity to see the profession from a student's view, from a teacher's view, and from a student teacher supervisor's view. I would be lying if I said that the majority of schools don't have a single weak teacher. If there are 50 or 60 teachers in a school, there's probably at least one weak one in there. You can say the same thing about any profession.

The problem is, as my post title says, critics completely blow it out of proportion. Teachers get blamed for the failures of teachers, but also for the failures of school systems, of administrators, of budgets, of enforced curricula, of the government "reform" of the year, of parents, and of students. All of those things do cause failure in the classroom. Sometimes you have incompetent elected school boards (for example, morons who run for office solely to get creation into science classrooms). Sometimes you have bad administrators - like the ones who put pressure on teachers to pass the star athlete or simply change his grade themselves. Sometimes the budgets don't give you enough money to do the job. Sometimes the curriculum is either too weak or too dogmatic. Sometimes the government reform of the year is made out by morons who push models that have already failed (e.g., NCLB, which failed in TX but was covered up). Sometimes there are parents who back their kids against teachers no matter how horrible their kids are. And sometimes you just have students who are lousy, not because they're dumb, but because they don't buy into school at all, they don't give a damn, or they're immature. Who takes the public rap for education, though? Teachers.

I think a good analogy is a hotel front desk clerk. Anyone who's worked as a hotel front desk clerk knows what I'm talking about. If something goes wrong with maintenance, housekeeping, reservations, etc., etc., the front desk clerk gets yelled at by the patrons. Any time something goes wrong with education, the first target is the teachers.

There are a good number of posters on DU who target teachers, and this is a progressive website! I am certain it is much worse on Free Republic, where most would probably like to get rid of public education entirely because they think it will save them some grubby tax dollars. This means that the moderate position is probably somewhere in between the mixed support teachers get here and the total witch hunt that I am sure exists on FR. Is it any surprise that teachers get defensive and don't want to give any ground or admit any weaknesses at all?

[TornadoTN]

9. It's pandering, but a common theme in just about every school district in the country

Whether true or not, remains to be seen. Sure, there are some bad teachers and they need to be weeded out quickly, but I believe that some examples of "bad teachers" are just good teachers that get caught in a bad system with bad administrators.

Maybe he's pandering to get people to pay attention, but the education mess won't be solved by adhering to NCLB.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. "... some examples of "bad teachers" are just good teachers that get caught in a bad system ..."

"... with bad administrators."


THANK YOU!!!

[TornadoTN]

21. No need to thank me for the truth

I've seen it first hand with my wife being a teacher. I actually spent some time substituting in her school when I was finishing Grad School and saw it myself.

[ColbertWatcher]

22. I'm thanking you because it needs to be said. It needs to be repeated.

And with your succinct answer, you've just made it easier.

[TornadoTN]

23. It seems to me that its the most obvious solution to the majority of our problems

If the system is changed and addressed to address the real problems in the educational system, rather than focusing it all on the easiest target, then a lot of the other issues will fall in place.

Corrupt administrations and school boards need to be cleaned out and new standards put in place for them.

[ColbertWatcher]

25. I agree. n/t

[Deja Q]

11. Good teachers are everywhere too.

I ought to re-read the passage, but there are plenty of other factors (quality of equipment/books, the behavior of the students, parental involvement*, et cetera...)


* which means more corporations really do need to provide proper paying jobs, so parents can have the time TO parent. AND that we need society and its media to give a damn about more than just the 17~26 faction as well. Children DO perceive their ambient environment; both consciously and subconsciously...


I'm not talking the mentally deficient ones who breed 15 or 20 kids, I mean the typical litter of 1, 2, 3, or 4 children. But will anything be done with the health care system?

Eventually, it'll all fall to pieces -- I reckon it's better to just work on things now, before any major collapse does occur. Prevention, a handful of Ben Franklin quotes, et cetera...

[Diane R]

18. Yes. There are good teachers everywhere. No one disputes that. But some are just horrendous and..

...have no business teaching our kids. The fact that we can't get rid of them is a major problem. I would rather have my kid in an old school with a fabulous teacher, than in a brand new facility with an unqualified teacher.

And no. I did not say that we shouldn't improve school facilities.

[MadHound]

26. Umm, bad teachers can be gotten rid of, usually all too easily

While the general public loves to think that teachers have the ultimate in job security in the form of tenure, the reality of the matter is that any teacher can be gotten rid of pretty damn easily, even if they're tenured. Especially get a parent involved and you will see just how quick a teacher can be booted out.

And while you didn't say that we should improve school facilities, you, like most of the public, reached for that tired old and completely untrue canard of "bad teachers" first thing. You didn't mention facilities, administrators, NCLB, etc. Nope, straight to those bad old teachers:puke: How very typical.

[ColbertWatcher]

28. Oh, and don't forget how bad textbooks are getting ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5336033&mesg_id=5336033

[MadHound]

30. Oh textbooks have been horrible for decades,

And yes, it's mainly due to two or three state school boards, namely Texas, that control what the rest of the country sees in their classroom. I remember how the TSB altered history textbooks when I was a kid back in the seventies because they didn't want the truth of what the white man did to the Indians being taught in public school. My history teacher simply brought in copies of "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee."

[ColbertWatcher]

33. That's an awesome teacher!

But, the burden for purchasing accurate books shouldn't be on the teachers.

Something has to be done about how our school books are created and selected.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. He talks about NCLB as if it was a thing of the past

We start our damn tests next week. This horrid piece of legislation still impacts everything we do every day. Hard to believe Obama doesn't get that.

[Deja Q]

4. In all fairness, Reagan+Bush+(some Clinton)+Bush have made a BIG mess.

Especially the latter Bush.

It is impossible for President Obama to make everything just and ethical again in 1 day, 60 days... maybe by 600 days. And he's going to have people against him.

Assuming he's not bought and paid for of course, but all things considered, that still doesn't ring entirely true.

Then again, as many people have mentioned "tax breaks for companies that offshore", it does seem fair to ask why some of these more obvious issues (some of which were even heralded during the campaigns in 2008), are still being ignored.

What sort of difficulties we're not fathoming right now could be delaying change?

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. So why can't he say NCLB is a problem?

Instead of giving the impression it is in the past.

[TornadoTN]

19. That irks me as well - it is a problem because it is still THE problem

That and the horrible system of administration in the schools.

NCLB needs to be scrapped and we need to start over. It's the only way to solve the problem, because right now we're only putting a tiny band-aid on it.

[GaYellowDawg]

49. I don't know. I really thought that with Jill Biden's background, NCLB would be history.

I really was surprised and distressed when I found out otherwise.

[ColbertWatcher]

5. I just wish I had heard about submitting questions earlier.

(I only found out about it yesterday)

And, if he waited one more day, we could have asked him about textbooks. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5336033&mesg_id=5336033 )

[TornadoTN]

6. Agreed. I really wish he would start his own plan from scratch

Create a task-force of people who are involved in the field of education, teachers - administrators, parents, etc., and hash out our own framework for education reform and sustainable growth.

NCLB is an awful plan that goes at addressing real problems in ways that are inefficient at best, and detrimental at worst.

[MadHound]

17. I feel for you, yep, the MAP's start next week

Good luck!

The thing with this is that he doesn't want to get rid of NCLB, or high stakes testing, rather he wants to augment it with "peer review". What the hell is that going to be? And television cameras in the classroom, no, I don't think so.

Why does every proposal about reforming education start, and usually end with the teacher? Especially when the obvious, glaring neon sign number one reform needed in education is money, more money for facilities, more money to pay teachers, a higher salary to attract and retain the best and brightest people. This has been the greatest reform needed in education since my parents started teaching in the '50's, and yet it seems like we never do anything about it. Instead all we hear about are the teachers.

Again, good luck next week, and good luck to the Jayhawks in the NCAA tourney. I'd love for it to come down to KU and MU in the Final Four.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. I like peer review

I have had lots of the training and it is a very good model.

I hear ya about the teachers. We are perceived as being responsible for everything. In this thread, someone asks why teachers won't admit there are bad teachers everywhere. So now I guess we are expected to lie and that will improve education? LOL

Truth is there are no bad teachers in my school. I have been there 12 years and we have an outstanding staff. Our test scores back that up. But I am supposed to lie and say well there is one bad teacher at my school. Or maybe I should say there are two. Sheesh.

We will be rooting for MU tonight at my house. :) Not a problem at all. It's time the Big 12 got the respect it deserves.

[Duende azul]

37. "just talking to Bill Gates", video ?

Why the hell should Bill Gates have a say in this matter?

[ColbertWatcher]

42. Good question and welcome to DU.

That is an interesting point.

Who the hell would ask Mr. Dropout about education?

[Duende azul]

50. Thanks for the welcome.

:hi:

There are some constituents who on a regular basis seem to have the ear of the president.
Why? Based on their wealth?
Do they talk on a daily basis? What other topics does Mr. Gates give his advice on? (biotechnology / genetic engineering come to mind. Remember his stake in the "doomsday vault" http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-07-2007/0004582068&EDATE= ).

And the whole video thing is just creepy.
Perhaps Gates sees a business opportunity in this.
All other possibilities you can image require tinfoil.

And for sure: putting (surveillance-)technology in the place of social interaction will do no good. Not for the students neither for the teachers.

[readmoreoften]

38. If they're bad teachers then prove it and fire them.

Point to specific, documented problems with their performance. There should be no "bonus" system for teachers that pull favors for administrators. Because that's what "merit pay" will amount to.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. But that would involve real work

:)

[Fire1]

43. I'd like to know when and if administrators will be

evaluated and by who? The vast majority I've seen and heard about are freakin nut jobs. No matter how many complaints are filed against them by teachers or parents, these wacko's never get reprimanded or fired.

[GaYellowDawg]

48. Tell me about it.

My principal insisted on being an assistant coach of the baseball team and handed chewing tobacco out to the players in violation of the state/district/school tobacco policy. A couple of years after I graduated, he was actually in a professional wrestling event fighting a "manager." He was an incompetent boob - but you couldn't get rid of the man because he was buddies with the superintendent. He ran off the best assistant principal I ever knew.