I want to see an end to payroll taxes as we know it.....even though it won't happen

[Progressive_In_NC]

I was listening to cube mates talk about how they "got money back" from their taxes like they had won the lottery. It started a conversation about taxes and money spent on things like wars, defense, foreign aid, etc. while we have starving folks right here in this country.

So to that token, I would like to suggest a 4 step plan to fiscal responsibility:

1. Everybody pays something into the tax system -- even if it's 1 dollar a year.
2. End all payroll tax deductions including social security and FICA
3. Make folks write quarterly checks or pay at a pay station if you don't have a checking account for the taxes that they owe. Garnish the wages and bank accounts of the high tax debtors if they fail to pay.
4. Watch responsible spending on social programs quickly become the only method of expenditure that the electorate will allow in this country.


My coworkers have no concept of the taxes that they pay or what they pay them for. Therefore, they allow the elected representatives to waste trillions of dollars that do nothing for the betterment of most folks in this country.

That has to change, and I am try to figure out exactly how we can wake folks up as to what is going on in Washington? Making them feel the pain of their taxation versus, this nebulous taking of their money before they see it would be just the thing to wake them up.

But we all know that this would never happen.

[Captain Hilts]

1. They ensure that wages will always be taxed more than profits - you got a problem wit dat?!?!

[shraby]

2. Maybe you should take a good look at what

you just wrote and take note of the holes in your suggestions.

[Progressive_In_NC]

3. such as?

If people never know what they pay in taxes why do they care if they're mishandled?

Just asking.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. Nothing in your post makes much sense. Why dismantle payroll deductions in favor of a 'pay station'?

[Progressive_In_NC]

7. Because of the apathy in this country as to how money is spent

Payroll deducted taxes are treated as money you never had. If you had to pay the tax yourself, then you'd think twice about how it is spent, and would care more about the government in general.

That's all.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. I don't know of anyone who isn't aware of the amounts deducted from their payroll checks. Your OP

talks about coworkers 'bragging' about how much they're getting in tax returns, meaning that they are paying even less than the 15% you gave as an example ($12K in withholding from an $80K salary). I and many others would be very willing to see an INCREASE in the amount of taxes we pay, if we got single-payer health care and kept the wolves away from Social Security.

[Progressive_In_NC]

10. I would gladly pay more too.....

I just would rather see the money spent of health care and social security than missle shields, new weapons, and aid to countries that otherwise are hostile to the US.

I just think it wouldn't matter if we paid 10-15% MORE each if we are capable, if the money will be spent the way it is now with billions in waste in the current systems we have and every pet project a senator or congressman can come up with worked into the mix.

Right now folks don't realize that they are even really paying into the system since the money never touches their hands; I'd like to see that change.

[zeemike]

5. I got one better for you.

Eliminate the Internal revenue altogether and with it the payroll tax and in it's place a Value Added Tax collected at the point when value is added to a product or service.
In other words Farmers would pay no tax on the sale of grain but when value was added to it, like when it is made into flower it would be taxed at the point of sale and the same when it was made into bread and the bread sold.
With a value added tax the rich would pay the most because they spend the most, and someone that did not want to pay taxes could just avoid buying things that had no value added to them...like a used car, or used goods. The poor would pay little.

[Progressive_In_NC]

6. I could go for a VAT or consumption style tax system...

I just really believe that if a guy/girl realizes he's paying 12K into the tax system on an 80K salary (income+SS+Fica) then he/she would be more likely to care how it's managed and or wasted. It became clear to me today that right now, there is no pain being felt since the money never touches the hands of the recipient.

[sinkingfeeling]

Have you ever visited or lived in a country with VAT?

[zeemike]

11. No but I understand that it is not exactly the same

As what i am saying and it is in addition to other taxes.
I am not talking about a sales tax but a tax when value is added to a product. A steel maker would pay the tax when he sold the steel and an auto maker when he sold the car...but a used car would have no value added to it so it would not be taxed.
But the big spenders would pay the tax when the bought a big boat or a vacation home and when they bought things that are luxuries to most people. And it would be possible to live with paying no taxes at all if you did not buy things that had value added to them.
And i also mean that this tax would replace all the other taxes, whatever percentage that would be, to finance our government and it's programs.
The IRS would then be an easy job for that agency...to insure that the tax was paid at the point of value added and sale. No more trying to track down hidden bank accounts and inspecting every taxpayer.

[sinkingfeeling]

12. Try Europe for a while and get back to me.

[zeemike]

13. Here is the rates from Wikipedia.

EU countries Vat tax rates.
Country Standard rate Reduced rate Abbr. Name
Austria 20% 12% or 10% USt. Umsatzsteuer
Belgium 21% 12% or 6% BTW
TVA
MWSt Belasting over de toegevoegde waarde
Taxe sur la Valeur Ajoutée
Mehrwertsteuer
Bulgaria 20% 0% or 7% ДДС Данък върху добавената стойност
Cyprus 15% 5% ΦΠΑ Φόρος Προστιθέμενης Αξίας
Czech Republic 19% 9% DPH Daň z přidané hodnoty
Denmark 25% none moms Merværdiafgift
Estonia 18% 9% km käibemaks
Finland 22% 17% or 8% ALV
Moms Arvonlisävero
Mervärdesskatt
France 19.6% 5.5% or 2.1% TVA Taxe sur la valeur ajoutée
Germany 19% 7% MwSt./USt. Mehrwertsteuer/Umsatzsteuer
Greece 19% 9% or 4.5%
(reduced by 30% to 13%, 6% and 3% on islands) ΦΠΑ Φόρος Προστιθέμενης Αξίας
Hungary 20% 5% ÁFA általános forgalmi adó
Ireland 21.5% 13.5%, 4.8% or 0% CBL
VAT Cáin Bhreisluacha (Irish)
Value Added Tax (English)
Italy 20% 10%, 6%, or 4% IVA Imposta sul Valore Aggiunto
Latvia 21% 10% PVN Pievienotās vērtības nodoklis
Lithuania 19% (as of January 1, 2009) 9% or 5% PVM Pridėtinės vertės mokestis
Luxembourg 15% 12%, 9%, 6%, or 3% TVA Taxe sur la Valeur Ajoutée
Malta 18% 5% VAT Taxxa tal-Valur Miżjud
Netherlands 19% 6% or 0% BTW Belasting toegevoegde waarde
Poland 22% 7%, 3% or 0% PTU/VAT Podatek od towarów i usług
Portugal 20% (as of July 1, 2008) 12% or 5% IVA Imposto sobre o Valor Acrescentado
Madeira and Azores 15% 8% or 4% IVA Imposto sobre o Valor Acrescentado
Romania 19% 9% TVA Taxa pe valoarea adăugată
Slovakia 19% 10% DPH Daň z pridanej hodnoty
Slovenia 20% 8.5% DDV Davek na dodano vrednost
Spain 16% 7% or 4% IVA Impuesto sobre el valor añadido
Canary Islands 5% 0% or 2% IGIC Impuesto General Indirecto Canario
Sweden 25% 12% or 6% Moms Mervärdesskatt
United Kingdom 15% (temporary cut from 17.5%) 5% or 0% VAT (Welsh: TAW) Value Added Tax (Welsh: Treth ar Werth)

[sinkingfeeling]

8. Sorry. Duplicate post.