Che Gueverra

[marano35]

I went to the liquor store tonite. I was wearing a Che Gueverra shirt. As soon as I walked in the store the guy at the counter shouted " You have a commie on your shirt." I got what I was after and proceeded to the counter. He then said, " You know he murdered people don't you." I said "One mans commie is another mans hero." I then said I considered him a hero to his people and he continued to spout off rather loudly a bunch of shit. When I was leaving he said, "Have a good night Commrade." I said "Dosvadania" as I walked out. Everything I have read on Che Gueverra tells me he was a hero, a man among men, and someone we should all appreciate. I know that is how I feel about him. He helped liberate Cuba from American capitalist control and fought for the impoverished people of Latin America until he was ruthlessly killed by the U.S. because he was a threat to U.S. capitalism and U.S. interest(read cheap labor for American companies in Latin America) I kinda think that he had it right and I am not ashamed to wear a shirt with his face on it. What do you think?

[AllieB]

1. I think I want some popcorn.

:popcorn:

[Tiggeroshii]

19. is popcorn all we eat for entertainment?

I personally dig indian masala with pita bread or some a middle eastern dip...

[cliffordu]

72. I'll have some popcorn!!

:popcorn:

[MinM]

133. Doris Kearns Goodwin's husband Richard met with Che in 1961...

In a futile attempt to create some sort of a working relationship with Cuba:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_N._Goodwin

After clerking for United States Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter in 1958, Goodwin came to Senator John F. Kennedy's attention in 1959 while working as special counsel to the Legislative Oversight Subcommittee of the U.S. House of Representatives, where Goodwin was involved in investigating the Twenty One quiz show scandal (which provided the story for the 1994 movie Quiz Show in which he is portrayed by actor Rob Morrow).

Goodwin joined Kennedy's speech writing staff in 1959, and after Kennedy's successful presidential bid, served as assistant special counsel to the President in 1961. Goodwin was also a member of Kennedy's Task Force on Latin American Affairs and in 1961, was appointed Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs, a position he held until 1963. As one of Kennedy's specialists in Latin-American affairs, Goodwin helped develop the Alliance for Progress, an economic development program for Latin America, and met secretly with Che Guevara in Uruguay in August 1961. From 1963 to 1964, Goodwin served as secretary-general of the International Peace Corps and in 1964 became special assistant to President Lyndon B. Johnson. He has been credited with naming Johnson's legislative agenda "the Great Society"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=209x7121

Richard and Doris were just featured on the Charlie Rose Show too...

http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/5228

[blonndee]

2. Guevara

[NightWatcher]

3. hmmmm

:popcorn:

this should be good

[msongs]

4. sociopath and serial killer but if that's what you admire, go for it nt

[marano35]

5. Please explain your reply

I want to hear what you think and why.

[bbinacan]

14. He had many under his command

executed and was feared by his soldiers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Sure, deserters.

So did George Washington.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. Ding ding ding

:thumbsup:

[bbinacan]

40. I have no respect for a

man that revered Stalin.

[alcibiades_mystery]

75. That's nice for you

:shrug:

[bbinacan]

78. Isn't though. and

do you revere a mass murderer?

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. I don't have discussions with

assholes.

cheers.

[bbinacan]

80. Very intelligent response

I get better out of my 8 year old God Son. You really got me.:sarcasm:

Now get to bed before your mommy takes your computer away again.

[bbinacan]

35. And Batista supporters.

Was there even a trial for them?

[AlphaCentauri]

74. I'm always fascinated by a hispanic news anchor in Miami

that call Che terrorist but Orlando Bosch anticastrista, isn't amazing how some cover up their own terrorist by accusing the other side of been one.

[cali]

108. so you approve of shooting deserters?

sorry, the washington did it too crap, is still just a lousy excuse.

[cliffordu]

73. No: you really don't

Really.

There's a website, however that will meet all you needs, if I canjust remember what the name of it is....Free Republican...no....something like that...

In the mean time feel free to fuck right the fuck off!!!

:hi:

[marano35]

6. I thought the same thing...

about Reagan,Bush, and Cheyney

[Sequoia]

8. Yes, we know George W is a sociopath and serial killer.

Only he killed them by the hundreds and at once. And Cuba had a right to oust us greedy money grubbing kooks. You might want to read Cuba's history.

[paulsby]

32. i agree

che was a piece of shit

that doesn't make him that unique. what makes him unique is all the people who think it's edgy, hip and oh so cool to fetishize and idolize his image.

i'm glad the guy spoke up.

unlike the OP, methinx most people who wear che stuff juset like the IMAGE, and dont' understand what a murderous assmunch che was.

i find it immensely ironic that people who are ALLEGEDY interested in justice, rule of law, etc. idolize che whose version of "revolutionary justice" makes guantanamo and extraordinary rendition look tame by comparison.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. I saw a t-shirt on campus recently...basic Che shirt with the word meurte overlayed on it

Apparently is seriously offended some people

[paulsby]

52. i'd wear it

i have no problem being provocative.

plus, wearing a che is dead t-shirt IS provocative.

wearing a che t-shirt is about as provocative as a hello kitty t

[AlphaCentauri]

76. I just wonder if we have the moral authority to to talk about justice

when we don't even prosecute those responsible for Guantanamo or the Iran-Contra deal.

[paulsby]

84. i've never really bought into that line of reasoning

that because our govt. does some bad and illegal things, that i , as an american citizen, have no "moral authority" to criticize (far worse fwiw) crimes.

if moral purity is a requirement than NOBODY has moral authority to talk about justice.

now, certainly somebody who does metric assloads of illegal/evil stuff certainly is going to be a little less credible in their criticisms.

[AlphaCentauri]

97. There is no comparison even using body count or other method of justification

also taxpayers who permit that the government use their money to torture or finance death squads do not have any moral authority.

That is no moral purity is require to criticize crime but anyone who condone and contemplate worse crimes lost all it's credibility to judge others.

[cali]

109. I didn't give up my rights to speak out just because my government

committed criminal act. That's just beyond stupid to suggest such a thing.

[AlphaCentauri]

122. speak out and deliver justice

two different concepts

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. You say that like its a bad thing...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. self delete- duplicate

[Cant trust em]

7. If killing people makes us have to dislike someone...

then we'd better be prepared to take this all the way. Are we supposed to resent the US military also?

[Rage for Order]

62. You can't be serious

The average soldier on the ground does not determine where he goes, when he goes, or what he does when he gets there (unless people start shooting at him). Che, on the other hand, gave the orders, developed the strategy, and devised and implemented the tactics for the things he and those who followed him did.

A better analogy would be to ask if people were supposed to (or are prepared to) resent the man who is in charge of the North Korean prison camp system or the old Soviet gulags.

[Arctic Dave]

77. We could never blame the soldiers for their plight, well trained dogs rarely

not do the tricks they are told to do.

Soldiers ALWAYS have the right to not follow illegel orders.

[GA_ArmyVet]

116. Interesting discussion until someone

had to call me a well trained dog. Why not discuss the OP, and Che's worthiness for worship, adulation, idolation and leadership quality and style, which I was finding rather enlightening.

[Dorian Gray]

117. Cause it's always fun

to blame our soldiers for something... no matter what the thread.

:sarcasm:

[GA_ArmyVet]

119. That does seem to be the way...ah well

[Adelante]

124. Fuck 'em

:pals:

[Arctic Dave]

125. Exactly, Soldiers are not dogs. They have a choice in

in what they do. So says the UCMJ. So when anyone says they are just "doing their jobs" is nothing more then calling them well trained animals.

[GA_ArmyVet]

126. I am sorry, but perhaps I am not understanding

you because it is late and I am tired, but exactly what is your point? And how does it relate to Che..Really not trying to be an ass, just not following your thoughts here.

[Arctic Dave]

130. My apologies. I went a little off course from the post but

I was refering to the statement above about soldiers should not be held to account because of the old saying of "just following orders". Using statements such as this you devalue the soldier by insinuating they have no choice about their actions when in fact they do.

This has always been a poor exscuse for the behavior of any person in uniform. The UCMJ gives the modern soldier pretty good protection from illegal and immoral orders.

Get some rest my friend and we can talk later.

[GA_ArmyVet]

131. Ok, got it

I understand and agree with you on your post...Man some days the old brain just will not shift out of neutral.

[Rage for Order]

127. That wasn't the point of my post

My point was that an individual soldier cannot do things on the scale that a leader (i.e. a general, Che, Custer, etc) can order things to be done. An evil soldier can kill a handful of civilians and burn down a house. An evil leader puts 50 soldiers in the village and tells 25 of them that the other 25 soldiers will kill them if they don't burn down all of the houses and slaughter all of the civilians.

[Arctic Dave]

129. I am not refering to "evil" soldiers, I am talking about orders.

Almost all are lawful, occasionally illegal or imoral ones are given. Soldiers have a defined responsibility to obsereve legal orders and to disobey unlawful ones. So, to say that a soldier does not have a say how they conduct themself is a false claim, they do. This a right and a responsibility they have not only to the military but I would also say to themself.

[Smith_3]

134. Well, either one is responsible for ones actions or one isn't.

If one isn't responsible for ones actions, then trained dog is a correct analogy. If one is responsible, then one may be scrutinized for ones actions.

[Gman]

9. LOL! That shit drives them nuts!

but it's kinda cruel in a satisfying way to fuck with the mentally challenged like that.

[izquierdista]

10. I think I get a lot of shit

For picking the avatar that I did.

[marano35]

12. Thats the shirt.

That is what I had on. Now I do have to give the Redneck credit for knowing who he is, I wear the shirt when it's clean a lot and never have had even one person here in L.A.(lower Alabama) even comment on it.

[Billy Burnett]

16. At least know who took that most famous pic of Che. Guerrillero Heroico, by Alberto Korda

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=korda+che&aq=8&oq=Korda



:hi:

[Billy Burnett]

15. The easiest way to pick out the gringos on the street in Cuba is the Che T shirt.

[EFerrari]

18. Had Che fought for US, there would be statues of him all over the country.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. "...but he never meant shit to me but a straight out racist..."

"the sucker was simple and plain
Motherfuck him and John Wayne..."

;-)

One would do well not to look too closely into the goings-on of any given hero in any culture, especially to the extent that their exploits involved war and power. It's always dirty, always grisly, always despicable. Any culture. Any hero.

All history is the history of class struggle, and all class struggle is bathed in blood on all sides.

Any hero. Any culture.

[EFerrari]

42. I don't think I've ever used the word hero or patriot to describe another person.

Ever.

:)

[cali]

110. baloney. you may not use the word but you can't tolerate even the mildest

criticism of any of your SA idols. Ever. Your sycophancy is hardly a secret. You're so predictable as to be a cariacture.

[marano35]

64. dude

what you said.

[Threedifferentones]

121. Exactly, alcibiades

99% of the people criticizing Che here have only ever seen the kind of poverty and cruelty he grew up around on the television. As happens so often, in his extreme efforts to fight the monstrosities around him, Che became something of a monster himself.

But, for whatever it's worth, I think revering Che makes a lot more sense than revering Reagan or Bush. Moreover, like you and others have said, if you look closely at anyone's life you are likely to find things which disturb you. Heroes are cultural phenomenons, and as such what they symbolize to others can be more important than what they actually did.

[marano35]

23. Are you saying...

the cubans don't like him.

[Billy Burnett]

28. Nope.

They don't really wear T shirts w/ Korda's pic, out of respect.

[End Of The Road]

11. I read a biography of Che a coupla years ago

frankly, because I thought he was someone I thought I should know something about.

I think there is more to admire than to hate about him. But hero? I dunno. He's a complicated figure in a chapter of history that has been overwhelmed with propaganda. I'll leave it to the historians.

[marano35]

13. I hear ya.

I think we step on our own dicks alot. I think because we have been trained to respond to certain things we respond to them the way that "THEY" want us to. I think that if we really looked at the man we would appreciate him. Nothing in the Wikipedia article says he should be hated by us.

[Union Yes]

93. A populist uprising to overthrow a wealthy Fascist Gov't.

And people here think that shoulda happened casualty free?

Reality people. Come back down to earth for a moment.

Are people here aware of how brutal the Batista regime was during the populist uprising. The Batista regime ordered mass execution of political dissenters during the uprising.

And yet we've been propagandized to believe that Che was the bad guy in throughout the revolution.

The poor rose up in a revolution led by Che.

Che should be revered by populists.

[cali]

111. best comment on the thread.

[marano35]

17. I kind of wonder....

How Che would handle the AIG bonuses situation. I kind of think that there would be a quick solution to that particular problem.

[End Of The Road]

22. He'd be fighting a losing battle, don't you think?

Che had no power. Charisma, yes, for some. Conviction, yes, but not exactly pure (except early on). It's power that matters. Che would have been found dead of a self-induced drug overdose (evil evil) if he had lived to "handle" the AIG situation (as you fantasize).

[Common Sense Party]

55. Quick solution? Sure:

"Contra la pared."

Not exactly the type of guy I'd choose to emulate.

[Fireweed247]

20. I think everyone should rent Motorcycle Diaries

I sure as hell know enough not to trust the US version of history.

[Billy Burnett]

21. Every American should be allowed to go to Cuba, instead of being (Tali)banned by the US gov.

Freedumb rains (down on your head).

[paulsby]

36. lol

better to trust a cinematic fairytale.

[chatnoir]

43. Great film, btw

Incredibly powerful emotionally.

Anyone interested in Che should def rent Motorcycle Diaries.

[RedCappedBandit]

123. I loved that movie.

Che did many good things. Class warfare, as with any war, is bloody. That doesn't negate the good he did.

[scarletwoman]

25. Sorry, it doesn't do much for your credibility that you misspell both Guevara and Comrade.

If you've read so much about Che Guevara one would think you'd know how to spell his name correctly.

Just sayin'...

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpartanDem]

27. Yeah what a hero

he helped liberate Cuba from a brutal capitalist regime for a slightly less brutal communist one.

[nomorenomore08]

34. That's the kicker right there...

Saying "he killed people, therefore he was bad" doesn't really capture it, since a condemnation of all taking of life would have to encompass the leaders of our own American Revolution, not to mention our present-day armed forces. But in Che's case think it's debatable as to how much said bloodshed really accomplished, and that's why I'm ultimately ambivalent about the guy. I don't see him as a monster, but he's not a personal hero of mine either...

:shrug:

[Political Heretic]

103. That's why (though I need more info) I tend to think of him as a tragic figure

The fact that he killed people in the course of revolution is not a thing for me. I'm not sure what people expected, a revolution by daisy throwing? I tend to support the notion of an oppressed people using whatever means necessary to end their oppression.

HOWEVER....

In this case look what happened... all that idealism... all the bloodshed.... the sacrifice.. for what? Something only perhaps marginally better than what was before it.

So, while I look forward to learning a lot more this year (I'm choosing to read a lot more on Che for personal enjoyment) I have a feeling I'll come out thinking of him as tragic for sure, possibly a tragic hero.

[EFerrari]

44. What does that say about us, then, that we trail Cuba

in so many social aspects?

Maybe Che should have liberated us.

lol

[marano35]

54. Right on man

[cali]

112. Comparing Cuba to the U.S, is rather silly and don't forget that

in reality, though not in the minds of the idolizers, Cuba has a mixed record when it comes to "social aspects:". But never mind reality.

[terisan]

30. When I see the t shirts I always wonder why the wearer hasn't signed up for one of the liberation

armies. Lots of opportunities out there for believers in violent revolution....and I wonder if a capitalist corporation is making money off the ant-capitalist revolution by selling the t shirts. That is my cynical take.


Yet I also assume the t-shirts are bought by people who are well-intentioned and concerned about justice or just tired of being pushed around or seeing others pushed around by society.


I don't think Che was a fighter for justice for gays though. Rather the opposite.

[marano35]

33. we got our country by violent revolution

and your gonna blame him and them for the same thing???? I have no idea how he felt about gay people, if you do I would like to know how. If your gay, I would just like to say that I support you for the record. U desereve every right that I have.

[terisan]

39. We sure did have a violent revolution in 1776 but Gandhi about 150 years later figured out how to

get rid of the British nonviolently. I like to think we can learn from history--MLK, JR. did.

As for Che and gays-yes there is a l lot on the web about anti gay attitudes of the Cuban Revolution.

Castro for certain was anti-gay and gays (or homosexuals as Castro would say , were imprisoned). I'll post some references later.

[Political Heretic]

104. I don't think the same tactics universally work everywhere.

[Posteritatis]

88. It's a generic "I'm a leftie!" flag as often as not

One of my history seminars a few years back, one of the guys present had a different Che shirt for every day of the week, spoke entirely in activist jargon, wasn't that hot on the whole "independent thought" angle in general, etc.

He also thought Gorbachev was a British spy planted by Thatcher, which is pretty telling of his general mindset.

[AllieB]

37. I highly recommend "Che', the two-part movie that came out at the end of '08

Che was no saint, but he was not the mass murderer that the Cuban-Americans portray him to be.

[marano35]

41. No man is a Saint.

if he breathes air and pumps blood he is not a saint. However if he puts the common good of man before money and profit, he is a better man than most. I would say that in the way that Che met his death as is documented, he had done that.

[Political Heretic]

105. Well fracking said!

Short, precise. Well said.

[Duer 157099]

38. I've seen several films and documentaries about him

and have read a couple books, and my conclusion is that I admire him, especially his earlier years when he was very strongly motivated by compassion. Not sure what happened to him later on, how he personally was able to deal with the brutality and the things he did, but I still admire him. Not sure I'd call him a hero though. A strong man of conviction, who ultimately had real compassion for the poor suffering people of Latin America.

[marano35]

45. Jesus syndrome

After all I have read I think he sufferers from what I like to call Jesus syndrome. Jesus has been admired all this time as a good man, a peace loving man who had a lot of good ideas about how we should relate to each other as people. I do not know that anyone else has ever had better ideas about that. I believe he was a good man, but that he was a man, just like me. I believe a lot of other well intentioned men over time got him to walking on water and shit, but I do not believe that. I believe that Che was a good man also, but that to acheive the things for the people he was trying to help that he had to do things that he at first did not agree with, but later found them necessary as did the American colonist to free his people from what would become slavery in essence by the Americans. Cuba was becoming a playground for the American rich and I believe that Castro and Che and all the others had every right to protect their country from becoming an American colony as did our ancestors from becoming an English colony. We used force to eject them and they used force to eject us. Fortunately England did not impose a fifty plus year embargo on us or we would not be the capitalist mess we are today. I would be willing to bet that during the first fifty years after our Revolution that there were a lot of people from England that called George Washington and Thomas Jefferson murderers and scum though.

[H2O Man]

48. Ernest Lynch.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

50. At least the guy you talked to knew who he was.

When I wear mine, most people think it's Jim Morrison.

If you really think of Che as a hero, I suggest you read "Che" by John
lee Anderson. In my opinion, a fair look at the subject. I thought of Che as one of my hero's for much of my life but that was mostly based on mis-information.

During the revolution, I think Che was on the right track. He espoused taking over things like the mega farms owned by the likes of United fruit Co. (Chiquita Banana) and giving the land to the people who worked it. He espoused an abolition of rental property and the distribution of said property to the renters, etc, etc. I think this was a great idea, giving the people who produced the wealth a stake in the distribution of wealth. Unfortunately, when Che actually obtained power, he switched his stance to Marxist Communism. The state took over all of the means of production. They took over all of the farms, rental properties, etc.

The fatal flaw in this position is that it destroys incentive. If you give me the land I farm, I have great incentive to produce as much as I can on that land. If you give me the house I live in, I have great incentive to take care of and improve that house. If you simply tell me that I have a new landlord, "The State" and that I will get paid the same amount for working it as the guy next to me who spends most of his day sleeping behind the barn, what incentive do I have to work hard?

In my opinion, this was one of the major failures of the Cuban revolution. Do I think they needed a revolution? You betcha! Cubans were being exploited by the same corporate masters who are currently exploiting us and they were, and are ruthless in their quest for profit and power.

Did good happen in Cuba? You betcha! Education in Cuba is paid for by the state. If you have the ability, you can afford the education. You don't have to have rich parents or legacy perks to get into the top schools. (G.W. on the other hand, probably would have been steard to fruit picking school instead of Yale and Harvard.) (From each according to his ability...)

Health care is a right! Not a privilege. Anyone who has seen sicko knows how much better health care is in Cuba compared to the U.S.

Without going on all night, which I probably could if I weren't so tired from being exploited by my employer this week, do some research. Che was not the great proletarian hero you think he was.

I still love him though!

[marano35]

53. Good reply man.

I can relate to an intelligent post. I will do some more reading. If I understand you though, he did more good than harm.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

56. Compared to Batista? Hell yeah!

N.t.

[Captain Hilts]

65. An interesting take on this subject. Thanks. nt

[Cid_B]

101. "They pretend to pay and we pretend to work"

Trying to remember where I last heard that...

[Hippo_Tron]

106. Che actually was a fan of the Maoist China model of Communism...

He got into some squabbles with Castro who preferred the Soviet version.

[gauguin57]

51. Che was not the sweet little hottie of "Motorcycle Diaries."

(well, he was when he was younger ...)

He was a murderous thug. I agree with the poster who said those who wear the shirt don't know the full extent of his villainy.

Villainy in the pursuit of a supposedly righteous cause is still villainy.

[hlthe2b]

61. Yup.... and sadly no--NOT the sweet little hottie of Motorcycle Diaries

;)
I rather enjoyed that movie as well!

[Captain Hilts]

66. This is my general view. nt

[UTUSN]

57. ...

[Name removed]

58. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

59. Wow... He is an icon that is quite complex...

Many have made him a unidimensional hero. The truth is far more complex,controversial, brutal, and far less saint-like (to say the least). Of course that is true of many American heroes as well... Just talk to that 15% about Bush*-Cheney--those "heroic" torturers that remain dear to their heart.

[Odin2005]

60. He was a brutal thug.

I find the idolization of him disgusting.

[marano35]

63. exactly what do you base that on?

Were you there? Where do you get that? Just curious, do you have a good source. I am quite sure he killed a few people, so did Reagan, Bush, Cheyney, Audie Murphy, and my Uncle Buck but I wanna know how YOU know he was a bad guy?

[Odin2005]

68. I've read that he did nasty, brutal shit to villages in Bolivia that refused to side with him.

Can't remember where, though, unfortunately. I think it might of been some BBC or NPR article a few years ago that was talking about the irony of the commercialization of his image.

[gauguin57]

81. Uh ... Reagan, Bush, Cheney were all BAD GUYS!

Dunno about your Uncle Buck.

[DailyGrind51]

67. Che literally wrote the book about winning the support of the population rather than terrorize them.

However, his frustration with the course of the revolution in Bolivia made him go against his own beliefs, prompting him becoming what he used to despise.

[Marr]

69. What do I think?

I think you're trolling.

[Codeine]

70. Go back to bed, honey.

Adults are talking.

[mitchum]

71. I know all about his "brutality"...and I applaud it

[paulsby]

85. a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate

"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. "

again, this makes guantanomo and extraordinary rendition seem like romper room by comparison.

che describes himself and his revolution perfectly "a cold killing motivated by pure hate"

at least he was honest in his motivation

[AlphaCentauri]

98. Since Guantanamo is related to Iraq, how many people my tax dollars have kill?

I see RW media said that Che has 180 victims, can we compare that to Pinochet, the death squads in El Salvador or the Colombian Paramilitaries? all those financed by our tax dollars.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. Hmmm, people I know who admire Che Guevara tend to spell his name correctly.

:shrug:

[malaise]

83. Che is a hero

QED

[paulsby]

86. a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate

his own words.

[mitchum]

87. There is that which is deserving of hatred

Try again

[paulsby]

89. i don't have to

i don't respect cold killing machines motivated by pure hate.

it's really that simple.

but since che is cute, and fought for revolutionary justice (lol), it's ok.

riiiiiiight

[mitchum]

92. Maybe you have some "issues" since you keep insisting on how "cute" he was

Feeling a little...conflicted?
Maybe you are troubled by your longing to have him "put you up against the wall"?

[paulsby]

95. it;s a reference to the image

part of its appeal is how it LOOKS.

it looks cool.

fwiw, he was cute. he had charisma.

i use the word cute, instead of handsome to belittle him.

because he was a man that deserves to be belittled, criticized, mocked, scorned, etc.

[Posteritatis]

94. like the idea that courts are archaic bourgeois details?

I consider that deserving of hatred. Your buddy thinks it's great.

[cali]

113. Neither a hero or a "bad guy".

but a complex human being with a mixed history.

[galileoreloaded]

90. Wouldn't offend me anymore than if Tim McVeigh shirts got popular.

Wear what you want. You just can't get offended if people wear what they want. Pretty simple really.

[Common Sense Party]

91. If I saw someone wearing a McVeigh T-shirt I'd think he's probably

every bit as big a douchebag as the poser wearing a Che Guevara shirt.

I don't get offended. But I know a douchebag when I see one.

[paulsby]

96. good analogy nt

[roughsatori]

99. Che shirts on young citizens of the USA are cliche .

If you are young: he should have been bored.

[lutefisk]

100. Was this liquor store in Alabama?

:beer:
.
:shrug:
.
:wow:

[Political Heretic]

102. It's always better when the oppressed don't fight back, isn't it?

Those in power can enslave or kill by the tens of thousands and no one gives a shit.

Someone from outside that power structure kills some people and he is suddenly Satan himself according to the establishment.

[Hippo_Tron]

107. I don't see how his actions were any worse than Raygun funding the Contras in Nicaragua

Or Nixon installing Pinochet in Chile. If Che is a murderous thug then so are quite a few Republican Presidents.

[bird gerhl]

114. I think that Che shirts are lame.

At the same time Che detractors are probably some of the lamest, most tedious, most unimaginative motherfuckers in real life.

They probably wouldn't raise nearly as much hell over a Joe Arpaio t-shirt either if you know what I mean.

[Judi Lynn]

115. Who?

http://www.david-jewell.net.nyud.net:8090/port2008/print/bushguevara/1.jpg

Che "Gueverra?"

http://www.radiojavan.net.nyud.net:8090/linkdoni/2006/05/0511_3_aleida-guevara.jpg

Daughter, Dr. Aleida Guevara

http://www.fotografias.net.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/che-y-famila.jpg

(named for mother Aleida)

http://w1.1396.telia.com.nyud.net:8090/~u155900388/images/camilsm2.jpg

Son, Camilo Guevara

http://www.cuba-junky.com.nyud.net:8090/foto-algemeen/algemeen-camilo-cienfuegos.jpg http://files.nireblog.com.nyud.net:8090/blogs1/cubanoticias/files/camilo_cienfuegos.jpg

(Named for revolutionary Camilo Cienfuegos, shown here with child Camilo Guevara)

[Dorian Gray]

118. I have a good friend who cuts hair at the Elizabeth Arden Salon in NYC

and I was there one day to see her. A woman came in wearing high heels, an expensive purse, and a Che t-shirt, and she started yelling at the people working the counter because they weren't taking care of her properly.

The irony of it was so over the top.

(I think I wrote about it here years ago when it happened! LOL.)

[fudge stripe cookays]

120. All that reading....

And you never learned how to spell his name correctly? Interesting.

:eyes:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

128. Every "hero" of every revolution has a dark side......

...involving things they were willing to do to win.

Hence why I try to avoid idolizing anyone of that sort.

[Smith_3]

132. I'm not a big Che fan but I acknowledge that many people criticize him for the wrong reasons.

I think many are just pissed that he opposed the USA and will bring up some crap like "he killed people". Well jeez, that can be said about just about any military commander who ever fought for anything. Seldom are the people who bring up that argument actual pacifists who would just as fast criticize George Washington, General Patton or any member of the US military for the same reason.

[baldguy]

135. .

[olegramps]

136. Why no mention of Batista.

Now he was a first class bastard that murdered thousands. He was responsible for the creation of Castro and Che Guevara. He came to power after leading the Sergeants' revolt in 1933 after which he was made a colonel and he began the mass execution of military officers that opposed him. He put down student demonstrations with ruthless impunity. He opened up Havana to the gangsters and fled the country with millions in loot. he is said to have murdered over 20,000 of his fellow citizens. It is true that Guevara over saw the execution of perhaps 200 who were tried and convicted by the Castro administration once he had gained power. But it pales in comparison to the brutal suppression of the common people by the Batista's gangsters. The really sad thing is that the United States viewed this ruthless dictator as our ally solely to appease the American conglomerates who exploited the poor to filled their coffers. We were just as guilty in creating Castro and Che as was Batista.