It's Time To Bring Back the Draft

[tekisui]

With a new generation of mercenaries heading for Afghanistan along with a 21,000 troop surge(so far) as well, we need to bring back the draft to end these endless wars for profit.

If we can't fight our wars with the US soldiers we have, we should draft the men and women instead of contracting the tasks out to war-profiteering corporations who engage in fraud, waste and abuse. We shouldn't take our soldiers being served dirty water and risk electrocution in shower at a swollen cost to us. And, we shouldn't be expanding the practice of outsourcing our wars into the Afghanistan quagmire.

A draft would also put more people's skin in the game, and shut down the endless wars. If the upper-class had to face sending their children away, only for them to return in a box or with a life long mental illness, more would be done to end these wars. The only way to wake people up is for them to be directly affected.

Bring Back the Draft.

[Wapsie B]

1. And if so, end the deferments. Send the children of the wealthy to the front lines

just like the kids from the projects and Podunk, USA.

[tekisui]

2. Absolutely.

[uppityperson]

100. I understand why one might think so, but you are wrong and I will fight you. Here's why...

If you truly think the wealthy and powerful would let legislation pass with no exemptions for theirkids, I think you are wrong. I understand the need for them to risk what others do, but giving more bodies while the rich/powerful escape is not the way to end this.

Simply passing legislation to end it is the way. If they won't pass legislation to end it now, how will giving them more bodies do so? If they won't pass legislation to end it now, do you really think they would pass legislation to risk their own?

[ThomWV]

3. That will never happen but it points out one of the big problems with a new Draft

Here's the problem with installing a new draft, we've got too many candidates to be drafted and not enough exemptions to service (from the old system) to reduce the number. Huh?

What I mean is that our need for troops is far and away eclipsed by the number of young men of draft age and so the problem is finding a fair way to exclude the vast majority of perfectly able young men to fill our needs. Its like haveing a job posting for 3 jobs and have 300 people show up for it - who do you pick?

[HillbillyBob]

9. Send them first!!

nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

64. I'll see your wealthy, and raise you 536 elected representatives. n/t

[ThomWV]

4. Agree 100%

You want to see adults stop wars - put their kids in the god damned things.

[TahitiNut]

37. Funny how it's OK if other kids bear all the burden, huh?

:grr:

The very notion that so many proclaim there's "something more" they'd do if there were a draft makes me nauseated.

:puke:

[endarkenment]

40. Bear what burden? The burden of imperial adventures?

Screw that. If and when our military's role is reduced to defending our borders and working in cooperation with other nations to defend the planet's trade routes, when we no longer pursue a unilateral global military presence, when we are no longer fighting wars of occupation and aggression, a universal national service program might make sense, until then it is just conscripting bodies for the war machine.

[TahitiNut]

45. That's just sophomoric posturing.

The reality is that those families who're affluent enough that the kids can complte high school, get at least some college, find some kind of job, and have some kind of health care are happy as clams to let the kids born into poverty with not prospects for a college education or a job or health care sign up (coerced) in the military and be sent repeatedly overseas. The FACT is that the 'all volunteer' military is composed largely of people subject to an ECONOMIC DRAFT.

In my view, it's absolutely no accident that the reliance on an 'all volunteer' military and the continuously widening CHASM between the affluent and the poor BOTH started about 35 years ago. No accident at all.

All the gnashing of teeth about the champagne units and the 'rich' draft avoiders evaporated among the 'middle class' AS LONG AS THE 'middle class' got a PIECE OF THE (privilege) ACTION.

[endarkenment]

51. The draft has never in its history affected the well connected

sophomoric posturing? feh.

a-historical bullshit: conscription ends wars and is equitable.

[zeemike]

59. that is not actually true

Joe Kennedy, JFK's older brother died in WW2 in a risky mission.
JFK was injured in PT109
And so many of the baseball players were in the service that they had a pro player with one arm.
And the list goes on.

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. Was Joe Kennedy "drafted", or did he volunteer? JFK? Baseball players? There's a difference. n/t

[zeemike]

90. He probably volunteered but could have ben drafted.

There were no exemptions then.
But most men did enlist then, including actors and rich kids.
Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart was a bomber pilot and a host of other celebrities.
One of my brothers was drafted ant the other joined the Merchant Mariens...he said he did not want to kill anyone, but a merchant Marine was one of the most dangerous jobs in the war.

[onenote]

91. actually, most of those serving in WWII were draftees; while most in Vietnam were not

Joe Kennedy did volunteer. But more than half of those serving in WWII were draftees, while only 25 percent of those serving in Vietnam were draftees.

[TahitiNut]

60. The constant WHINING about how "the draft has never affected the well-connected" ...

... betrays nothing but ENVY instead of disdain for those not shouldering their share of the burdens of national service. Instead of making an even MORE egalitarian and equitable national service system, the WHINERS are placated by ALSO escaping and letting the least enfranchised stand in harm's way. Then, to add insult to injury, the privileged 80% insult and demean those who wear the uniform of their country. Baby killers! War criminals!

Abdicating the social contract of a democracy the peanut gallery liberals sneer and posture and paint totally imaginary pictures of some dystopian ideation that has absolutely no basis in reality and for which they have no real commitment. Like some talisman, they wave it around to apologize indolence, sloth, and escapism. But heaven forbid they invest even a FRACTION of that which those serving have surrendered. Oh, no. After all, getting a piece of the 'privileged' action is what it's all about. Fuck the poor.

[endarkenment]

71. I fought in the streets and put my freedom on the line to end the draft

I am not insulting and demeaning anyone other than the OP and those who advocate forced conscription. It is dishonest manipulative bullshit to advocate resuming forced conscription in order to re-invigorate an antiwar movement and that conscription - which has fueled all of the really big wars of the last two centuries - will somehow end war. Further it is a-historical nonsense to claim that 'this time it will be different'.

[zeemike]

97. Yes and look what you got for your effort.

Perpetual war...a military made up of mostly poor people and sociopaths that commit atrocities all over the world in our name.
A vast military industrial complex that makes lots of money off these wars and mercenaries that are accountable to no one.
Conscription did not start WW2 Hitler and the Axis powers did and we were very late getting into it...in fact it took a direct attack to get us into it. And that is probably due in some part to the fact of conscription because congressmen sons had to serve too.
you will never end war when the military is filled with rank and file professionals...history has proven that.

[endarkenment]

103. We already had perpetual war. No change there.

[Djinn]

118. exactly

the US has had perpetual war since at least the Monroe Doctrine was enunciated. History did not begin in the mid 20th century as so many people seem to believe it did.

When the US slaughtered a couple of hundred THOUSAND Filipinos in the early 1900's was that because evil middle income folk refused the draft??

[Cid_B]

80. Gosh...

Completed High School - Check

College degree - Check

Multiple job offers with health insurance - Check

Stable Family - Check


With all of that I signed up for service and I am not the only one. Watch how you paint with that broad brush.

[TahitiNut]

92. Our military, overt draft or mere coercion, has always been about 2/3 coerced and 1/3 duty-motivated

As a kid from a single-parent home without either the financial resources to pay for college or anyone with a college education that understood how it was done, while I was in high school I obtained an appointment to the Coast Guard Academy ... 2-day competitive examination ... 250 accepted from 25,000 applicants. At the end of my second year, it was clear I didn't have the personality or background suited for a career in the military. (I took the hazing but couldn't hand it out.)

I left ... and then worked my fucking ass off to get the rest of the way to my undergraduate degree. Working part-time or full-time and living with one parent then another to do whatever I could to graduate. It took me five-and-a-half years to get my B.S. Then, after graduating, getting engaged, and going to my second job, I was drafted. 1968. Decision time. Canada? Refuse? Or go? I went. (If I didn't, someone else would ... and probably with less of a chance to survive it. I thought.)

So, I KNOW what I'm talking about. It WAS my first choice ... to get that college education ... to have a military career. Ignorant. Little did I know how the military worked.

[endarkenment]

5. You go send your kids. Keep your bloody hands off mine. nt.

[tekisui]

7. That is the attitude the draft would bring, and it would end these

fucking wars.

[endarkenment]

10. No it wouldn't.

What a tired lame ass argument. Drafts enable more and bigger wars. A draft *might* also fuel resistance to those bigger wars, but at an approximate 10x cost in lives. For example, 50,000 of our kids dead in VietNam compared to around 5,000 dead so far in Bush's war.

You want to force your kids into the military? Have at it. Keep your bloody war mongering hands off mine.

[tekisui]

12. Public oppostion ended the Vietnam war.

I don't see anything else getting lazy Americans off their asses.

[endarkenment]

38. 50,000 of ours dead.

[Orsino]

76. And you don't hear any of them complaining, do you?

I mean, except for sometimes in the middle of the night.

[chrisa]

113. Who do you mean by "them?"

[Orsino]

115. Our dead 50,000.

Or any of the other roughly five million dead, who similarly seem content with their lot.

[ben_jenne]

41. Opposition to the draft is what fueled the "anti-war"

protests of the 60's and 70's. For the most part people didn't give a damn about ending the war, just don't "pick" me. We were a selfish, self centered generation, but aren't all.

[TahitiNut]

47. I'd say that's 80% of it. There were 10% solely motivated by pacifism...

... and 10% solely motivated by good weed and partying.

[ben_jenne]

78. Pass the Ripple man, and don't Bogart....

[BobRossi]

6. Will you go if called? nt.

[tekisui]

8. No. I will join the people in the streets.

That is the point. A draft would shut this bullshit, war for profit operation down.

[BobRossi]

24. People in the streets?

Yeah, that has worked quite well thus far. ><

[ThomWV]

14. I did go when called - and let me say that it the most cowardly thing in the world not to go.

and the only two crimes for which I think the death penalty may be appropriate are treason and desertion from the military.

[BobRossi]

27. I also served.

I volunteered during Nixon's administration. I was against the draft then. I have two young girls now and I'll be God-damned if they will die so some asshole can stand on a corner with a sign and pretend that they are ending war.

I the OP wants to take to the streets there is one that runs directly in front of the White House.

[patrice]

32. I will yeild that it is possible that you made a valid moral choice, if you will admit that it is

possible that I am not an asshole.

If we cannot have this agreement as to what is possible between us, I am no saint, so I must assume that your judgement of me is how you wish our relationship to be defined and I am therefore justified in stating un-equivocally that you, sir, are also an asshole.

See where the premise that "others with whom I disagree are assholes/evil/bad/________" gets us? Do you think the fact of that just might have a little something to do with what you perceived as the necessity to volunteer for President Nixon's part of the un-ending ENSLAVEMENT of America to indescriminant Militarism?

[patrice]

35. How many of 1,000,000 dead Iraqis were actually a threat to your girls? If Iraqi girls die, why not

yours? It's known as The Golden Rule and it ain't rocket science.

[cabluedem]

114. Females need to be a part of any draft too. When daddy sees his little girl going off to die, there

will be fewer and shorter wars.

[patrice]

116. Absolutely agreed, as long as there is also a Department of Peace as described below.

and peace workers.

[patrice]

36. Do you think making War isn't pretending that you're ending War?

[dysfunctional press]

29. sometimes, NOT going can be a very brave act...

if someone is willing to go to prison by following their conscience, rather than report to serve as part of a senseless, unnecessary, and unjust/illegal war- they could hardly be considered a coward.

[patrice]

30. For some, it is the most cowardly thing in the world not to say "No" when your

mind, heart, and soul know that, for you, "Yes" is wrong.

All FREE individuals must make these decisions for themselves (that is . . . IF they, in Fact, are Free, which they usually ARE NOT, so the decisions are made, directly or indirectly, for them by others and then social pressure is used to achieve the desired effect.)

[ima_sinnic]

42. yes, risking being called "treasonous" and being jailed are sooo "cowardly"

it's far "braver" to unquestioningly do what you're told, no matter how immoral, unethical, or ILLEGAL, than to rock the boat or stand fast to whatever principles you have and be court-martialed and jailed. Because "just following orders" is such a great excuse for "bravery."

[Javaman]

58. oh boy, yet another who believes popular decent is a cowardly act.

have fun with that, I'm sure the founding fathers would be proud of you.

:eyes:

[PuraVidaDreamin]

62. I knew many people who chose not to go and to me they are heroes

True heroes

[Name removed]

66. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[H2O Man]

88. Muhammad Ali

won by a 7-0 decision in the US Supreme Court. I consider Ali's position to have been a great example of social conscience.

[patrice]

11. Only if there is a complete OPPOSITE, Peace-making option with all of the same obligations, headed

up by a Department of Peace, and NO ONE crossing back and forth over the line between the two, transferring to one or the other whenever it suits yourself.

[tekisui]

13. That sounds like a great idea.

And, we need strict laws that prohibit contractors from doing military jobs.

[patrice]

22. I'll have to think about that . . . "contracts" . . . ?

I work in a hybrid: public money + private 501c(3) money and we are on the cutting edge of professional standards in our field.

[tekisui]

26. I understand that some are necessary.

But, there should be strict limits. I don't think any contractors should be firing weapons in a US combat zone. And, I have a real problem with the profit side of military contracts, if they are doing jobs that soldiers could be doing.

[patrice]

33. Absolutely with you on these points!! Solidarity, tekisui!

:hi:

[ThomWV]

16. I agree with this too, but stipulate that the DOP would get half the DOD budget to operate

Cut the defense budget in half and give the half saved to the Department of Peace to operate on - hell, as far as I'm concerned they can even have their own 'black' budget for the secrete shit too.

[tekisui]

19. I like this.

These are interesting ideas. Imagine all of the good that could come of it.

[patrice]

21. Yes!! White-ops Secret Peace making? hmmmmmmm . . . .

Imagine . . . . !

[jody]

15. We don't need a draft, let those who support Obama's war in Afghanistan volunteer. n/t

[ThomWV]

18. Fat fucking chance. That would be likely as Bush's kids serving in combat.

[BobRossi]

23. Amen!

Interesting how those that support Obama's involvement in this failed war are also unwilling to participate, but it's ok with them to send the neighbor's kid to die.

[patrice]

25. This would be the perfect world. Those who want it go do it and that would include Congress & Presid

ent and there'd be an age minimum limit, but no maximum limit.

No ordering others to go do things that go against their ethics. If you "believe" in _________________ put your OWN life on the line.

[patrice]

28. Oh, and we also get a check-off on our Taxes: "No Killing, directly or indirectly, with my money."

I'll even be Real generous and throw Abortion in on the definition of Killing.

[spoony]

77. Hear hear

There are plenty on DU to start with. Then we can move on to government employees.

[cliffordu]

101. They already are.

Dickhead.

[jody]

105. A colorful nickname, "Dickhead". Was it given to you by people who know you or is that your self

description?

[bdab1973]

122. I think that reaction is based on your assertion that no one deployed supports the war

Which is false...

[Obamanaut]

17. OR, close those hundreds of bases in other countries, bring everyone

home, and use all those military members for defense instead of sending new ones off to fight the "oil wars."

Use the golden rule idea of "do unto others" and because we don't want to be "done unto" stop "doing unto them" first.

[L0oniX]

34. Ding Ding Ding

[SammyWinstonJack]

53. .

:thumbsup:

[cherokeeprogressive]

69. Not to mention the shot in the arm your suggestion would be to the economy.

Those servicemembers who would be returning home would need housing, refridgerators, stoves, TV's, CARS, you NAME it.

The lease payments we pay foreign governments for bases on their land could be spent here on your own soil, on our own citizens. The tax dollars we pay servicemembers would be spent IN OUR COUNTRY instead of someone else's.

The money we pay to keep supply lines open would be saved. We'd no longer have to pay to get Marlboro cigarretttes to places all over the world (I know the military and merchant navy ships transport much more than that but it's a good example of wasteful spending).

I'd add that we should bring the U.S. Navy back to within our territorial waters and limit battle group deployments to 60 days instead of 6 months with the threat of being extended. (Been There Done That, Used to have a CV-66 t-shirt) We don't HAVE to train in the Med, or the IO, in order to be able to fight there.

Make adjustments to military service that would render it more of a "national service" proposition. Train to fight for four months, then build roads, maintain infrastructure, or perform some other kind of community service for the other eight.

[Obamanaut]

104. Miz O and I just returned from lunch, and we were talking about

this very thing. All those returning servicemen and women could be placed in existing stateside bases or reopen some of the closed ones - and as you said, a boon to whatever local enonomy they are in. Schools get an impact fee for the children enrolled in some cases. Everyone wins.

I like the suggestion in your last paragraph.

I have a CV66 coffeemug somewhere. Made two Med cruises (I was in the airwing) 1983 - 85. Two years on the USS Misway in Yokosuka, followed by two in the CV66 airwing. Retired in 1988.

[cherokeeprogressive]

108. I was on one of your Med/IO cruises. VS-32.

The first one, I think. Seems strange to think the USS America sleeps with the fishes these days.

Kick Ass & Press On! (ya had to love Snuffy Smith huh?)

[Obamanaut]

110. Or maybe that's the tour I was on the Independence.

VA 87 '83 - '85, then 10 months at Mayport, then VA 46 until retirement. The memory is a terrible thing to lose.

[HereSince1628]

20. As someone whose military service was incentivised by the last draft, I say no to conscription

There is no evidence that suggests a draft dissuades politicians from wars or brings troops home. There is only rhetoric that pushes the idea. The logic of the argument seems to make sense only because we want it to make sense.

Korea and Vietnam happened while a draft was on. Drafted Americans were sent to Europe and Korea while the draft was on. Americans got sent to unhappy little deals like the protection of the Suez Canal under a draft. The US spread it's nuclear talons around the world under a draft.

The notion that a bill for universal conscription with no deferments would pass is fantasy. Getting a bill passed to bring back conscription will require compromises that mean that the Cheney and Bush types will always get special treatment.

The notion that national service via conscription or by the coercion of the threat of conscription is a good thing is mass sociopathy of a military state. The US need not mirror ancient Sparta.

[chrisa]

31. You first. nt

[kerrywins]

39. Lets not Try to End Tyranny by Introducing More Tyranny

thanks....

[tularetom]

43. I was drafted in the peacetime per viet nam era

so it was a big pain in the ass for me, nothing more. But I have always wondered if I were a few years younger would I have had the guts to stand up and tell them to go fuck themselves. Probably not. I would have been a sheep and gone along with it like most people did.

The real heroes to me were those who publicly resisted the draft knowing the public scorn and perhaps legal consequences they would face.

[zeemike]

44. I have some experience regarding the draft and military.

I was in the military from 1960 to 1967 during the time when all men at age 18 were subject to the draft.
And it bears no resemblance to the military today.
There were no private contractors slinging hash in the mess hall making 50k or more a year. That job was done by enlisted men making 100 bucks a month (I don't know what that would be in todays money) and the cooks were also enlisted men usually NCO.
In fact the military was totally self sufficient and hired out no jobs to private enterprise.
Privatization actually began during the Johnson years when he replaced some jobs the military did with civil servants...I was one of those...and E5 making less than 400 bucks a month and was replaces with a GS7 making a lot more money than me and I had to train him.
In the early 60s before deferments I served with all kinds of kids...the guy that bunked above me was the grandson of one of the richest men in America and he did his job just like all of us did...and I might add without complaint.
But in those days there was a sense of duty, and it was understood that all young men should do their duty in some manor or the other.
We have lost all of that and we are much the worse for it.

Yes I am for compulsory service for all kids 18 to 21 before they go to college so they can get some real world experience in some way or the other...it is not necessary for them to serve in the military, there are many other jobs that need to be done that will help this country get better that are tailor made for pacifist.
If you don't want your kid to serve in the military then there are hospitals and conservation projects that they can work on and gain real life experience and learn what other people are like, both rich and poor black and white and learn what a diverse and wonderful people this country has.

[tekisui]

48. I like the idea of compulsory service, and especially that there be

peaceful alternatives. Thanks for sharing your experiences, and for your service.

[zeemike]

52. Don't thank me I was drafted

Or I would have been but I chose to join the Navy.
Besides in those days you did not thank them for there service because it was a duty and you do not thank people for doing there duty.
It was expected that you would serve.

[NNN0LHI]

49. What happens if none of the draftees want to serve in the military?

Maybe they all want to work on the tailor made for pacifist type jobs? To get the kind of job experience that might actually get them another job when they get out.

What then?

Don

[zeemike]

54. It has always been the case that pacifist have been drafted

And when it was determined that they were sincere they were given non combat jobs.
Sargent York was an example in WW1.
But when the cause is just as it was in WW2 they did not have problems finding enough men to do the job that was necessary.
And if the cause is not just...like in Iraq. then there should be mass refusal to fight. It would make war hard to wage.

[TahitiNut]

50. I remember the exact same things. I agree.

At best, we'd have 100% compulsory national service in some role or another. I'd favor something like 2 years in the military or 3 years in the Peace Corps/Americorps/etc. Absent that, the post-1970 lottery-based draft for BOTH males and females ... and a COMPLETE abolition of the 'privatized' military ... would be far, far, far better than the shit we have now.

[zeemike]

55. I like the 3 year thing

But I would be satisfied with 2.
Now what we have is a military that attracts the young men with violent tendencies and there are few normal people in the ranks to keep them in check...that is how atrocities are committed.

[tekisui]

82. These are the kind of ideas I was hoping to find in starting this thread.

I really like the idea of compulsory national service, and de-privatization of the military. I know Richardson had mentioned some service, and Obama has spoken of a service in trade for school debt. But, I would like to see a full overhaul in how we fill our military. It is a racist and classist method, now, with war profiteers making too much to end wars anytime soon.

[Ron Green]

65. This subthread is the truth, IMO.

It was also my experience (I served from 1966-69) that the draftees were every bit as good at soldiering as the enlistees, and that the true cross-section of Americans in uniform at that time was a healthy mix of patriots and dissenters, educated and not, rich and poor. The "hoo-aa" bullshit that accompanies a George W. Bush rally would never have made it during Viet Nam; there was too much thinking and talking going on in the hooch during off-duty time.

By late 1968 the FTA movement was pervasive at every base I visited, and this was instrumental in turning the tide against the illegitimate war.

[4bucksagallon]

46. Totally agree... no deferments, no other priorities, no text......

[LeFleur1]

56. Hell No the Rich Won't Go

They never have if they don't want to (often for some future political purpose) and they never will.

This is America. Compulsory government service stinks.

I'd bet if there were a real reason to defend our country even little old grandmas like me would hoist a rifle, grab some grenades, and defend this country. If defense were necessary you wouldn't need a draft. It's those in charge who like playing war that make a draft so dangerous. There have been too many wars for profit, too many mistakes, too many stupid warlike decisions by those in charge to trust our youth to a draft.

I supported the anti draft movement before and I'll do it again. BUT...
Thank you to those who put their lives on the line, even if the reason was not clear. They were asked to go and they did, most likely out of a feeling of duty. They are not the problem, and they never should have been blamed. I remember the wounded coming home from Viet Nam...even those with no physical wounds were often shattered. I remember how they were treated and it was an awful thing. A mistake by some of our citizenry. They were made scapegoats instead of the real culprits, those in charge of the fiasco.

[Javaman]

57. Sorry no. perfect example is george w. moron*. he enlisted with daddies help

got a cush job sometimes flying trainers and hardly ever showed up.

Sorry, those who want the draft usually don't have kids, are too old themselves to be drafted and are eager to use the argument that the there will be an "iron clad" element that will guarantee the rich kids will be drafted.

here's a clue for you, in the history of the universe, the rich ALWAYS get out of the draft. But but but, what of the rich during WWII? We were in a congressional act of war during those times and the ENTIRE country was one gigantic war machine. Trying to get out of the draft in those days was virtually impossible, but again, it didn't stop those with influence from keeping their kids out of combat.

So please, stop this crap.

[demgurl]

61. If a draft were imposed I would move my sons back to Canada,.

I am a pacifist and do not believe in war, or violence, for any reason.

All of that being said, maybe we should be demanding something besides a draft from our government. I see many people complaining that it is an economic draft. Why not make it so those less fortunate have a choice in their career? There are places that provide college free of charge and even provide a living stipend. The better the job you get the more use you are to our society in general so why not demand that our government provide a free education and that will give people a choice in their path in life.

Or, if you really insist on having a draft, have one where you have the choice of the military or college. The government would pay you for your military service so why not have them pay you for school?

Why send more people to die? That is what a draft would be. If you want economic choice then demand one that would give people the chance to thrive and give back to the community and let them have a much better life. By demanding a war to be over, via draft, you are still not giving them a better economic chance at life. Do not prolong a problem, try to solve it.

Does this make sense to anyone?

[trayfoot]

63. I've been saying this for years!

[cliffordu]

67. DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNAH!!!

Want to end the wars yesterday??


Reinstate the draft.

[endarkenment]

72. see WWII WWI Civil War Korean War Vietnam War

Oh what perfidious bullshit.

[cliffordu]

83. Special insight you have there, sparky.

I think everyone should pull a hitch, either in the military or in a civilian conservation/urban renewal/education manner.

But that's just cause I think people need to be invested....a little skin in the game, as it were.

If the draft WAS re-instated there'd be riots by those hosebags who's children are too perfect to serve something other than their own interests.

I'd love that.

[endarkenment]

87. "riots by those hosebags who's children are too perfect"

By your own words you are defeated.

'skin in the game' did not prevent the Civil War, WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War. 'skin in the game' has not stopped one single war - not even the Vietnam War - which continued long after Nixon reduced the scope of the draft. And stop mincing words. This isn't about skin. It is about dead bodies.

[cliffordu]

95. You really don't have to explain to me what it's about.

but I appreciate your magnanimity.

:hurts:

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

73. !

:rofl:

You call me a murder loving idiot, that is rich. This is a call to expose the wars for what they are. For-profit imperialism. We are engaged in these wars because they are making corporations money. If you read this thread you would see the idea includes limits on war contracting, and alternatives to military service for those opposed. Pacifists could serve a two year peace term.

The idea is that if everyone had skin in the game, public policy about war would be completely different. Try critical thinking, you might enjoy it. And, your post will get deleted.

[endarkenment]

75. Explain how 50,000 died in Vietnam.

[tekisui]

79. How did it finally stop?

Through the course of this thread, important modifications to the draft would necessary. Peaceful alternatives to the military must be provided for those who don't wish to participate in war. But, a compulsory service would get Americans involved instead of being lazy and complicit. Public opinion would change greatly, and with it public policy. Also, I think we need strict limits on what jobs contractors are allowed to do.

[Obamanaut]

106. Part of the answer is that there were many, many years of involvement

by the U.S. there.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

<snip>
July 26, 1950 - United States military involvement in Vietnam begins as President Harry Truman authorizes $15 million in military aid to the French.
American military advisers will accompany the flow of U.S. tanks, planes, artillery and other supplies to Vietnam. Over the next four years, the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French.

<more at link>

I do not have an year by year breakdown of injuries/deaths for the VietNam era - the activities were more hostile some time than others as you know. Suffice to say we (the US) were pouring personnel, equipment, and money into that morass for a very long time.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orsino]

74. No.

Not until Congress shows the slightest willingness to call a failed overseas adventure a failed overseas adventure. Not until the media are freed from bondage to the rich old white men who sell us war.

Then we'll talk.

[TahitiNut]

81. Catch-22

As long as most don't have any skin in the game, they'll continue to posture like drunken frat house sophomores about "illegal" wars (but NEVER get a court to say so) and look down on others ... but will NEVER bring about the change they (say they) demand. Empty rhetoric. Cop-out.

[Orsino]

84. It is, indeed.

But I don't want anyone forced to play their corrupt game, possibly to kill or die, just for taking an oath to defend our Constitution.

No prison for anyone with the wisdom to refuse.

[ddeclue]

86. Nope - it would only make it easier to fight such wars as we

saw in the past. When you have a conscript army you don't have to worry so much about fighting optional wars especially when you have a willing lacky media on your side.

Doug D.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

89. We have not been in a "just" war since WWII and there is no way I want my sons to be drafted.

Kissinger said that the military are dumb stupid amimals to be used as pawns, and that is exactly how they have been used.

Fuck the draft.

[Djinn]

119. nor prior to it

America (like any super power in the history of geopolitics) has been fighting offensive (in every sense of the word) wars for 150 years.

Hell NO I wont be a gangster for capitalism, and before I get the accusations of being a "rich" sign holder, I'm barely making rent on my shitty 1 bedroom flat in a crappy part of town and that's with a supposedly good job - no college degree or trust fund here.

I'll take my chances in jail like my daddy did or go fight WITH those fighting against the imperial theft of their nation and resources (like my Dad almost did)

If and when my own nation stops involving itself like a demented poodle in American and British wars for profit I will march down to the recruitment office.

If and when my country is ever attacked, I'll be first in line.

Further the riches of Croesus like ruling class leeches. FUCK THAT for a game of soldiers.

[freddie mertz]

93. I understand the point of this argument.

But having lived through the draft in the Vietnam era, I'm still a bit reluctant.

If we could end these stupid wars, I'd support something like a "national service" requirement.

[tekisui]

98. I am in full support of national service.

With the option of serving military or something akin to the Peace Corps. I think that involvement of the people of this country would help end the stupid wars.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

94. Well, there's still a lot of open space in Canada for the refugees.

And, one has to be careful when burning one's draft card.

I burned mine in '67 at a protest. It was no great act of bravery on my part, I had already put in my 4 endless years of servitude doing absolutely nothing of benefit to anyone.

I've since changed my opinion on the draft. I think that an army full of resentful troops who'd rather be doing anything else is a deterrent. A deterrent to ambitious politicians and medal-hungry generals who have more reason to count on a "volunteer" army.

Having helped a few guys scamper across the border during the Vietnam exercise in wasting lives for nothing, I imagine a new generation of ex-hawks would be on the streets.

It's interesting to note that most of the generals are against the draft. I guess having to watch their back is all that appealing.

[sammythecat]

96. Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler had the best remedy I've seen.

Here's an excerpt from "War Is a Racket", written in 1935.

"How To Smash This Racket!

WELL, it's a racket, all right.

A few profit -- and the many pay. But there is a way to stop it. You can't end it by disarmament conferences. You can't eliminate it by peace parleys at Geneva. Well-meaning but impractical groups can't wipe it out by resolutions. It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war.

The only way to smash this racket is to conscript capital and industry and labor before the nations manhood can be conscripted. One month before the Government can conscript the young men of the nation -- it must conscript capital and industry and labor. Let the officers and the directors and the high-powered executives of our armament factories and our munitions makers and our shipbuilders and our airplane builders and the manufacturers of all the other things that provide profit in war time as well as the bankers and the speculators, be conscripted -- to get $30 a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get.

Let the workers in these plants get the same wages -- all the workers, all presidents, all executives, all directors, all managers, all bankers -- yes, and all generals and all admirals and all officers and all politicians and all government office holders -- everyone in the nation be restricted to a total monthly income not to exceed that paid to the soldier in the trenches!

Let all these kings and tycoons and masters of business and all those workers in industry and all our senators and governors and majors pay half of their monthly $30 wage to their families and pay war risk insurance and buy Liberty Bonds."

"Give capital and industry and labor thirty days to think it over and you will find, by that time, there will be no war. That will smash the war racket -- that and nothing else"

The whole thing is on one page and well worth the read.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c4

[tekisui]

99. Thanks!

I believe war should be a non-profit enterprise. That is the real reason the wars won't stop. Too many are making way too mush to let a few thousand dead get in the way.

[TahitiNut]

102. Many of those who "profited" from Viet Nam ...

... were the Jodies who got hired and promoted in jobs that draftees were pulled out of. When the veteran came back, he was most often treated like a leper. While the 'law' required he be hired back (*IF* a position was open) and credited with 'seniority' including his time in service, the reality was a LOT different. (It always is, isn't it?)

The Viet Nam Era has left a legacy where those who sacrificed the LEAST claim the MOST 'credit.' It's appalling. It was appalling then and it's appalling now.

[Ron Green]

107. "Ain't no use in goin' back...

...Jody's got yo' Cadillac."

[Djinn]

120. a few MILLION

Vietnamese sacrificed the most - what credit have THEY ever got?

You wanna defend the poor - not one US draftee was as poor as the Vietnamese peasantry, spare a thought for them (or the Iraqi's, Afghans, Pakistanis...whoever's next)

[rampart]

109. economic conscription

nothing like a good depression to raise those recruitment/retention numbers

[LBJDemocrat]

111. The Third Reich conscripted men. It didn't stop them from invading nearly all of Europe.

Are you saying we're too civilized for that?

[chrisa]

112. Ridiculous.

All you would get is several dead poor people.

More people in the army would just allow the military industrial "Patriots" to attack Iran, Syria, and who else knows where? Do you really want to send more people to fight wars for oil? How about helping people dodge the draft instead?

[Djinn]

117. or you could just demand and end to war for profit and empire

instead of condemning other people's kids (and lets face it other POOR people's kids) to death. When people realise they can't have a first world health service because you're busy spending money killing people in the third world, maybe that'll wake 'em up. Until then why the hell should the third world suffer (even more - more soldiers = more wars, we'd already be in Iran and Syria if the OP had his way) the consequences of American political and historical ignorance?

[Mari333]

121. great idea..it would change the tunes of a lot of people

who sit in their armchairs and dont mind sending other peoples kids to war (occupation.) that includes people who support Obama's war/occupation surge in afghanistan.
wish it could happen.