Not supporting GM and Chrysler breaks the back of the UAW

[DainBramaged]

and this is what the Rethugs Shelby, Corker and McCain wanted, along with so so many here, people that think it's OK to have Foreign interests make everything their lives depend on. What this also means is hundreds of thousands of retired and disable UAW workers are left out in the cold, and current workers will not have a health insurance umbrella no matter what little they are paid. Toyota has about 2500 retirees after nearly three decades here, and that should wake a few of you up to realize that they shove people out the door and don't offer a life of employment like the Domestic Auto industry did.

And if the Obama Administration allows the destruction of the American Auto Industry, he will be hard pressed to garner support from the remaining Unions in 2012, the Unions who got him where he is.


Obama didn't take a hard line with AIG or Wall Street, but he is taking a hard line with Main Street. It is not a pretty picture.


We can't eat hope.

[notadmblnd]

1. No we can't eat hope, but we can eat the rich. And I make one hell of a BBQ sauce.

[Kalyke]

2. I don't like fat and I'm allergic to pork, so y'all can share

in that recipe.

I'll stick with GREEN veggies.

;)

[HowHasItComeToThis]

38. MR PRESIDENT, YOU ARE SCREWING UP

WE VOTED YOU IN AND CAN VOTE YOU OUT.

AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN VOTING REPUB.

[roamer65]

52. Bingo...time to form a viable democratic socialist party very soon.

One similar to the NDP party in Canada.

[LooseWilly]

31. Mmm... long pork. (n/t)

[JDPriestly]

3. What has happened to UAW is horrible.

But, the UAW should have been screaming much more loudly over the past 20 years. GM, Chrysler and, to a lesser extent, Ford have not kept up with societal changes. They are selling SUVs because they get higher profit margins -- at a time when families are smaller, environmental damage at crisis levels and the availability and affordability of petroleum declining.

UAW should have begun pressuring GM, Chrysler and Ford about its plans for the future about 20-30 years ago.

A lot of UAW members voted for Reagan. Don't think they didn't. If union members had not supported the conservatives over the past nearly 30 years, we would have had Democratic presidents the whole time.

Union members used to be a large percentage of the country. They could have stopped the conservative takeover. But they did not, and the rest is history.

[DainBramaged]

4. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Have you even gone to the Toyota, Honda, or Nissan website and looked at their model lineups? You spew useless drivel.

[screembloodymurder]

5. The big three are in denial.

Instead of embracing the future, they went back to the future (fifties and sixties) and retro-engineered their own demise.

[madrchsod]

7. really...let`s see....

ford-two new hybrids on the market and "small cars" on the way.

best overall quality in two of their models

general motors-second largest car company in the world. discounting their world cars let`s see what they are doing in the usa

all electric car waiting for customers and battery packs--made in the usa battery packs

quality as good as toyota and honda

highest mpg product line--beats toyota and honda

hybrids-gas electric in production

the largest fleet of hydrogen fueled vehicles in the united states.

chrysler....needs to partner with fiat

so two out of the big three are just as good or better than the god all mighty japanese.

yes ford and gm made millions of vehicles nobody wanted...that`s odd...i wonder who bought all those vehicles they made?

[NeedleCast]

9. I think the argument here is that this should have happend two decades ago

and I'm casting blame across the board here, not just at American automobiles.

[Statistical]

12. They didn't

"yes ford and gm made millions of vehicles nobody wanted...that`s odd...i wonder who bought all those vehicles they made? "

GM marketshare was 29% in 2000. It is 19% now.

19% marketshare for 8 brands. Stop and think about that 8 brands = 19%.

Figure Chevy is the majority of that. Maybe 7% (at least) for Chevy.

So the other 7 brands share 12% or an average of 1.5% marketshare each.

The overhead for R&D, plants, contracts, part suppliers, dealership support, etc for a mere 1.5% per brand.

It is INSANITY.

Ford will survive. GM as a 8 brand monster is dead. It was already dead in 2000 it just have been surving by financing it's lifesupport on debt. The credit supply ran out.

GM will either be a modern 3 brand company or it will cease to exist. 1990 is not comming back. If anything the foreign brands are EVEN MORE competitive than they were in 90s.

[dkf]

13. American cars don't feel as solid as Japanese cars.

At least the Mustang I rented didn't, nor did the econobox we tried about a year ago.

[DainBramaged]

17. Two cars out of hundreds of models compared to what?

More useless drivel.

[dkf]

21. I was seriously thinking of buying a Mustang before I bought my Infiniti

So I'm not closed to American cars. But the only two I have ever driven rattled and didn't feel solid when I closed the door. I thought I was going to be blown away by the Mustang, but I wasn't. My Infiniti drives much better, especially the handling. And it moves big time.

[DainBramaged]

24. The only two you have ever driven.......

Give me a fucking break

[dkf]

26. How else am I supposed to drive them?

I do it as I come across them but everyone I know only has Japanese cars. Except my brother has an Audi.

Oh I take it back. My uncle has a Saturn and that car has an awful ride. We had to replace the axle when the car was less than 4 years old. Fortunately it was under warranty.

[Romulox]

30. The Mustang rolls off the Mazda line in Flatrock, Michigan.

But your post uncannily demonstrates the power of suggestion. This is also likely why Consumer Reports et al. consistently rank Japanese branded vehicles higher than American branded vehicles, even when the vehicles are identical and roll off the same line (eg. The Ford Ranger/Mazda Navajo, and Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe).

[DainBramaged]

36. Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe IDENTICAL, Consumers claimed the Vibe suffered from lack of rear leg room

:shrug:

[NoGOPZone]

43. That's not what they say in my 2009 Auto issue.

"The tall stance makes cabin access easy, and the rear seat is roomy." This phrase appears in the profiles for both vehicles.

[Obamanaut]

53. If identical, doesn't that mean the Vibe is no better or worse? nt

[NoGOPZone]

42. The Ranger and the Navajo are identical?

I wasn't aware that a pickup and a SUV could be identical.

You likely mean the Mazda B Series. I've have my 2008 CR Auto Issue here, because I don't know what I did what the recent 2009 issue, and CR doesn't even have seperate profiles listed for the Ranger and B series because they are clones. The Vibe and the Matrix each have their own, but each indicates that it twin of the other. Viewing the reliability ratings, which are compiled from user surveys, the Matrix gets the highest overall reliability ranking three of five years and the second highest two of three. The Vibe gets the highest four years and the second highest once. Power of suggestion is indeed interesting. By the way, both the Vibe and the Matrix were among the most reliable wagons mentioned when CR published its results of the 2008 survey last November.

[KittyWampus]

22. awesome artwork in your signature line. Please to tell who it is?

KTHANXBAI

[safeinOhio]

10. Sorry, they made what you were buying

If we had only paid $6.00/gallon, because of taxes, like the other countries, we'd been good at making small cars too. This country wanted less taxes and bigger car and SUVs. Now we are paying for it and blaming the car companies and workers. Screw everyone.

[Marie26]

8. But isn't that the US public's fault?

GM will make what sells. And for many, many years, big hulking SUV's sold very well in the US. That's what the people wanted; so that's what GM made. People could've chosen small sedans, and didn't. And as far as I know, the UAW has supported the Democratic Party for 20+ years, so blaming them for Reagan is just unfair.

[Statistical]

14. But GM didn't see (or didn't want to see) the change coming.

Take hybrids for an example.

It takes years, maybe a decade for a hybrid to be profitable.

Toyota & Honda started 7 years ago.
They didn't make any profit on them however they built expertise, production capacity.
They were able to deal w/ problems, defects, recalls when there were only few on the market.

7 years of knowledge, 7 years of improved designs, 7 years of innovation, 7 years of improved production line efficiencies.

They didn't wait until gas was $4.50 a gallon and say hey there is a market for efficent vehicles.

They.... wait for it..... PLANED FOR THE FUTURE.

I know it is shoking but "chance favors the prepared mind".
Now they are reaping the dividends of those investments.

7 years is priceless. GM will NEVER be able to get that back.

The volt project is behind schedule and over budget. Imagine how successful it could have been w/ 7 years of hybrid R&D & production experience under their belt.

[Kokonoe]

11. If you want union votes, back the union when they need help.

Do not support the Corker republic.

[blue_onyx]

27. What?!?

"If union members had not supported the conservatives over the past nearly 30 years, we would have had Democratic presidents the whole time"

What are you talking about? Reagan won 44 states in 1980 and 49 in 1984. Blaming the unions for electing Reagan is insane. Anything else you want to blame on the unions?

Toyota and Honda have been desperately trying to break into the SUV market. Go to their website...they sell a number of gas guzzlers.

[LooseWilly]

37. I think you over estimate UAW influence on "business decisions"

Those sorts of business plans are made only at the uppermost levels... and those are the decisions that, if I'm not mistaken, are used to justify the absurd profits at the top of the corporate structure.

Blaming the UAW for a fundamentally idiotic business plan at GM is like blaming the people working the registers at McDonald's for the prices and the menu options available... its ridiculous.

I'm sure it was all the UAW could do to keep the factories in the States open at all... and to keep a health plan. They've had to accept pay cuts on a regular basis... and if they couldn't even apply enough pressure on the corporations to keep from having to take pay cuts, I doubt they had the "pull" to do anything about sound business plans or marketing strategies or {insert more examples of corporate boardroom babble here}...

[high density]

6. The White House is trying to make these companies stronger long term by forcing them to change

GM and Chrysler are drowning at the moment. DU's collective clamoring about the unions is akin to starting CPR before we've pulled them out of the water.

Mr. Wagoner has presided over a steep drop in G.M.’s domestic market share, which has led to tens of billions of dollars in losses. His critics have said that management’s failure to move aggressively to address the company’s problems contributed to its dire financial situation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/30/business/30auto.html?_r=1&hp

[backscatter712]

15. There is a point to that...

I'd rather have the Obama administration running the auto companies through the bankruptcy ringer than the Bush Administration - the Bushies were going out of their way to screw the unions. Obama had a lot of union support during the election - I saw a lot of union-organized campaigning during the election season, so hopefully he'll find a way to give them a fairer shake.

[high density]

18. Unfortunately the overwhelming sentiment on DU seems to be that Obama = Bush

There is no patience for his plans and still an immediate assumption that everything from the White House is rooted in corporatism and helping the fat cats. The argument here has basically devolved into socialism vs. everything else. Some people need to get their expectations down to earth. Obama is not Kucinich or Bernie Sanders, nor is he George Bush.

[DainBramaged]

28. But he isn't looking after the Unions either.

There is NO more room for concessions. Maybe we should walk away and let all of Detroit fail and plunge this country into a Depression for a Decade.

[quiller4]

39. There is room for concessions on the funding of pensions

and that is the only really open issue with the UAW. The main point today was to pressure other creditors and bondholdres who have not been negotiating in good faith as the UAW has.

[ogneopasno]

20. Bankruptcy wipes out unions contracts.

All contracts are dissolved under bankruptcy, including those that were bargained collectively.

[Romulox]

32. That's funny, because they're "making AIG and Citi stronger" by changing as little as possible

[xchrom]

16. GM was already in the process of rehiring some workers -- @ $14.50 an hour.

reported here at DU.

[DainBramaged]

19. Thats not good enough for people here.

[KittyWampus]

23. The MANAGEMENT of the Big Three are to blame. THEY made the decisions. THEY forced this outcome.

[xchrom]

25. indeed. -- and their families will be fine.

their futures will be secure -- these guys can move from management to sitting on boards of directors -- or participate in consulting -- in any number of outcomes that will keep them floating above the heads of displaced workers.

[specimenfred1984]

29. So did the financial managers of AIG, Goldman and others

But somehow they're getting 100s of billions, that somehow being known as "fascism". GM and Ford should be propped up and bought, Chrysler/Cerberus should rot in hell for the good of Americans.

[Romulox]

33. Can you contrast the management at GM with that of AIG, Citi?

Otherwise, your point makes little sense in the context of ongoing bailouts to the latter two. :shrug:

[stklurker]

49. GM - AIG

not to defend either.. but the big 3 automakers have had eroding shares and profits for 10 years... the bank failure was pretty sudden

[DainBramaged]

34. (sigh)

And what do you do for a living?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Supporting GM management breaks the back of the UAW.

Management or workers.

You have to decide.

[LooseWilly]

41. I'll take the workers for $100 HiFructose...

Which is why I'm fine with the firing of the CEO. Hell, fire the CFO, COO, and all the other Cs, and promote any assistant who filed a critical memo anywhere in the last couple of years.
And, while you're at it, give the new guys & gals a lowball (by exec standards) salary... and use the difference in expenses to fix the corporate pay structures and make the corporations viable.

I'll bet cutting 3 exec salaries in half, and providing no more benefits than the average line worker gets, would be as cost effective a measure of savings as laying off about 1200 line workers (given that executive pay is about 400 times that of their workers)...

Hell, why not make sure that future contracts stipulate that all workers have the same benefits, so that if management decides to cut health insurance, they'll have to cut it for themselves as well?...

[amborin]

40. agree

[DainBramaged]

44. Thanks

[spoony]

45. Don't worry, I've been assured by several DUers

that heads will roll on Wall Street. Any day now. (Looks at watch.) Yep.

The reason it's taking so long is because banks are more important than car makers (another thing I've been informed of here) that's why Obama...isn't going to...fix them...first. These things...take time, so he's...starting with the less important...uh...

Actually, you know what? We're fucked.

[ContinentalOp]

50. So no wall street CEOs lost their jobs?

Are you sure about that?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8305743&mesg_id=8305758

[nonconformist]

46. K&R. It makes you wonder, just reading around DU today...

Do you have to be from Michigan to really "get it"?

[Mithreal]

48. And Michigan residents knew what Buy American meant. nt

[Wednesdays]

47. Some on DU were talking about the workers taking over the Big 3

Is that just a Utopian fantasy, or is that really a viable option? :shrug:

[Obamanaut]

51. This certainly does not look like the typical blind support that we

are accustomed to. What's up with this?