Obama & the Borg - the Military/Corporate/Financial Complex. Why dissent is ESSENTIAL.

[scarletwoman]

So, you LOVE Obama. You hate hearing people criticising him. You want to give him a chance, you want to give him more time. You want to believe that he's a good-hearted leader who is doing his best to navigate through unprecidented and extradordinarily difficult times.

If that's TRULY the case, then you HAVE to rise up against the Powers that are holding him hostage.

There IS a "shadow government". There are powers who control the limits of what any one president can do. And these powers are ANATHEMA to our democracy, anathema to the well-being of the ordinary citizen.

When people criticise what Obama is doing, it's because what he's doing looks very much like he's giving into those powers.

If you really love him, then FIGHT! Rise up in protest of the agendas that put the profits of the corporatists ahead of the good of your fellow citizens.

You do Obama no favors by rationalizing his policies, when you KNOW that if a Republican president were doing them you'd be totally against them. Blindly "supporting" Obama no matter what is not supporting him at all -- it's just leaving him to the tender mercies of the Borg.

The Borg is OUR enemy, and it's Obama's enemy, too. The only way to save him from the Borg is to protest, to bring to bear the power of our numbers to oppose the agenda of the Borg.

If you love Obama, then FIGHT for your principles!

sw

[amerikat]

1. Resistance is futile.......you will be assimilated

but not me.

[emilyg]

2. kick

[Divine Discontent]

3. you tell 'em, sw! I have been no cheerleader, and I will criticize whatever I feel the need to.

He must hear from the people, because sadly, I think a lot of people are in a fog of denial about how bad it is for millions of people, and they just wanna rah-rah the president no matter what. I FULLY support this president as being a good guy who has a very good head on his shoulders - and talk about night and day intellectually from the last one, but he really lost me with his harsh push against the autoworkers taking pay & retirement cuts while the investment asshats not only make more per year by far, but they that caused this mess aren't being brought up on charges for dirty dealings with other people's money, and like in the case of Cramer, doing things they know weren't really allowed but still doing them anyhow because they knew they'd make bookoo bucks and live it up in mansions and private jets...

There's plenty of DUers angry with the president's decisions, I'm not angry at this time. Obama's men, Geithner and Bernanke, sigh, they don't impress me, but I'm very supportive of him on all the good things he's done, so not ticked with his choices but certainly really disappointed he took such a stand against the incomes of the autoworkers yesterday. That's what it appeared to me at least. I will keep reading to be proven wrong. These are hard times, and President O knows many things I don't, but at some point, the new car smell is gonna wear off, and I don't wanna see I have a car model that really isn't too far removed from the last car when it comes to war & financial matters, at least.

[scarletwoman]

34. Thank you for your very thoughtful response.

I posted my OP in the hopes of possibly offering a way to bridge the gap between the folks who are mad as hell and feel betrayed, and the folks who can't bear to hear their hero criticized.

We all need each other if we're going to turn this country around, and I think Obama needs us, too. Not to be passive followers, but to be active and engaged in exercising our OWN power.

sw

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

5. "The Borg is OUR enemy, and it's Obama's enemy, too." Learn how to read. (nt)

[Fumesucker]

6. Yes, the military/corporate/financial axis are our friends...

:eyes:

[Peace Patriot]

8. Got your style of argument from Rush Limbaugh, did you?

What is it with DUers who don't understand what democracy IS?

It IS debate. It IS disagreement. It IS the "marketplace of ideas." It IS criticizing the government and holding it accountable.

I do think that this impulse to stifle debate derives in part from fear--fear of the return of another fascist junta. This is mostly a subliminal fear, which comes from our failure to make the facts about our non-transparent election system conscious. This is a legit fear, but, as a semi-conscious thing, it has strange results. For instance, instead of going out and doing something about our election system, and making it more possible to insure Obama's re-election--for instance, by demanding that our votes be counted in public view (and not by rightwing Bushwhack corporations with 'TRADE SECRET' code)--someone freaks out at anyone criticizing Obama, for fear that corpo/fascist 'news' monopolies will use that criticism to write another false narrative of yet another stolen election. A legit fear--but the fear doesn't address the right issue. The danger to Obama is not in the people having a rip-roaring fine debate about every issue and policy. The danger to Obama is in the privately controlled voting machines and those behind them.

This fear may derive also from our having experienced tyranny for what seems like a lot more than eight years (centuries!), so that people don't remember very well what democracy is all about. They think criticism of Obama serves the rightwing. Well, it might, considering the voting machine situation. But we should consider this also: It was, in fact, the failure of the corpo/fascist 'news' monopolies to criticize Bush, and their function in stifling all criticism, that resulted in so many disasters and such rampant lawlessness. A good leader requires criticism. No single person or group of people has all the ideas or wisdom needed to rule. They must have in-put from a wide variety of people to rule wisely and well, and some of that in-put is necessarily negative--whether of bad policy or bad appointments. But it is by no means intended as destructive. In fact, quite a lot of negative criticism can be aimed at helping the Obama administration be more successful. Most of us very much want them to be. Negative does not mean bad. Criticism does not mean bad. Debate is not bad.

In a democracy.

But do we have one?

If serious, legit criticism of policy is described as "fucking Freeper shit," I have to wonder if we do. How many of our people think this way--that debate is not allowed? The privatized voting machines also make me wonder, as does the corp/fascist control of the airwaves, and, indeed, of almost all communications. Things are so bad--and our democracy has been so severely damaged--that merely debating policy and criticizing government decisions risks...another Bush Junta? Yeah, you could argue convincingly that it does. So, do we have a democracy any more, in which every citizen has a right and a duty to speak out, because that's the only way that democracy can function--or do we have a "shut the fuck up" kind of country, in which you are expected to march in lockstep with whoever the leader is, because someone worse may seize power?

[wuvuj]

31. I think that getting the BIG $....

...OUT of ELECTIONS is the MAJOR THING that needs to be done.

So busy cleaning up after dirty george et al....that nobody seems to get around to it....YET?

That and putting the military....wall street...oil companies...big pharma BACK into their respective boxes...and nailing the god damned lids shut?

Big job....looks like the people are going to have to do it.

[truedelphi]

110. You left out Big Agro, and its evil Daddy Monsanto

But I agree with all the others you list.

We have to fight the good fight while we can.

[cali]

7. lol.

dog, the trite language is a riot. I'll criticize Obama for policies that I disagree with but I'm hardly going to fall for propaganda wherever it comes from.

[NYC_SKP]

10. well.

I remember the primary wars. And I remember some of the more outspoken members in both major camps. And I notice for some the battle continues.

:donut:

[scarletwoman]

13. Then I trust you remember I was in the Obama camp. I was certainly accused of being a "Hillary

Hater" often enough.

[EFerrari]

33. Then you need to get your vision checked.

[sendero]

9. I don't think it is is "blind loyalty"..

.. so much as pure ignorance and occasionally stupidity.

My beef with Obama is the Geithner/Summers taxpayer giveaway. Anyone that thinks this is the best possible solution, or even a good solution is either stupid or ignorant.

As you say, if a Republican pulled this shit the cries of foul would be deafening. But here, there is a hard core subset of people who think that whatever Obama does is by definition good.

They will find out soon that it is not, because if Obama fails on the economy he will be a one term and replaced by a repub, guaranteed.

[leftstreet]

14. it's also fear

brand loyalty does strange things to people

[scarletwoman]

26. Hi Sendero, hope you don't mind that I stole the Borg analogy from you.

I WANT Obama to be what so many of us felt he could be, an authentic agent of change.

But it's all too clear that the shadow powers have no intention of upending the status quo. The ONLY way that Obama can possibly gather enough power to counter them is if WE stand up and refuse to let the shadow powers have their way.

sw

[Me.]

11. K & R

[BeFree]

12. Dissent is essential

But the focus has to be on the forces arrayed against us. I don't believe Obama is against us. He is hamstrung by the PTB - Powers That Be, and the only way he overcomes is with all of us joining with him to steamroll the bastids back into the 20th century.

Obama is our quarterback and to further the football analogy we are in the fourth quarter of the Super Bowl, down 10 points. As a team we will lose if we start sniping at our quarterback. We need to keep our focus on the opposition and expend our energy in that direction all the while letting our quarterback know we are a team set on beating the crap out of the competition.

[leftstreet]

15. K&R

[cliffordu]

16. K&R

[Uncle Joe]

17. I agree, kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, scarletwoman.:thumbsup:

[CBR]

18. I agree -- dissent is patriotic including...

dissent against the dissenters.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. You're a regular Jesus figure.

You get flamed for Obama's sins.

God bless you, Scarletwoman.

You're doing the Lord's work.

[G_j]

20. we're alive, we're here, we're informed

We helped the dude get elected, and we are pretty smart. :think:

Sometimes it is said that the real purpose of a radical is to make it safe for others to move in smaller ways.
We have a duty to speak up. It shouldn't be radical to acknowledge the shadow government and it's ultimate power.
The banksters and military industrial complex are no joke. Presidents come and go.

[Political Tiger]

21. Jean Luc Picard was held hostage by the Borg too

But his crew stood behind him and helped him!

[Sandrine for you]

22. I love the Borg, they are my best anti-hero. I think we should become decentralized Borg.

[scarletwoman]

24. Thank you! You get it! What would have happened to Picard if his crew had decided they would just

go along with his new identity? My Captain, right or wrong. But they didn't, they fought to free him, they refused to let the Borg have him.

Obama can't fight against the assembled dark powers alone. Sitting back and cheering him won't help one bit. We need to marshall our OWN resistance in order to give him the strength and the numbers and the back-up to fight with us and for us.

sw

[Fire1]

47. I have to admit scarletwoman, I never quite looked at it that way.

I can agree with you only because I, too, believe there has always been a 'shadow power.' Many dissenters accuse him of not speaking loud enough, not moving fast enough, reneging on his promises. What do these things have to do with 'holding him hostage?' He dictates his priorities and he has mult-tasked quite well, under the circumstances, imo. Take EFCA, as an example. Logic dictates that he is obviously waiting for Franken to be seated before bringing this to congress. Why wouldn't he take the path of least resistance and wait for Franken? But people are dismayed because he is not screaming in the streets to get EFCA passed YESTERDAY!!

[truedelphi]

111. I am really enjoying this topic. Thank you for pointing me over to it

And feel free to PM me when you are posting things so that the Borg cannot prevent me from kicking and Rec-ing!!

[scarletwoman]

115. Thank you for reviving it! I'm glad you like it.

Honestly, I never pm people when I post something, I just take my chances that people will notice it and maybe want to join the discussion.

If it doesn't get noticed, that's okay, too. I just try something else later. But I definitely appreciate your checking this one out and posting on it.

Thanks much,
sw

[Jack Sprat]

23. Right you are.

Winning elections becomes meaningless if you fail to confront the very essence of what your campaign was targeted at.

The same powerful demons of war and finance that have long run our country into the ground still control the puppet strings of our government. Their money buys power and that power dwarfs individuals, presidents, and bodies of Congress. Like chameleons, they are capable of playing both sides of the political spectrum pausing only to adjust their strategy ever so slightly. Eisenhower warned us about them. Even Nixon rebuked them. Our country requires something of an exorcism of epic proportions to expunge this beastly demon.

[TBF]

25. K&R n/t

[wildbilln864]

27. kick.. too late to rec, sorry. nt

[scarletwoman]

28. Thank you -- but it's not too late to rec, my OP was posted only 18 1/2 hours ago. (nt)

[wildbilln864]

29. my mistake, sorry. I did rec it.

It was a different thread I couldn't rec. I confused the two, sorry. Thanks again and keep up the good work. :patriot:

[scarletwoman]

36. Thank you again! And please, there's no need to say "sorry"! I'm so glad you liked my OP!

:hug:

[EFerrari]

30. Exactly. K&R

[scarletwoman]

38. Thanks, friend! Glad you found my thread. (nt)

[earth mom]

32. Good post! I hope people will listen to you before it's too late. nt

[scarletwoman]

37. People just need to listen to their own sense of right and wrong. The corporatists are killing us,

they're killing off the planet. We HAVE to resist. There's no other option if you're a sane, ethical, and compassionate human being.

sw

[earth mom]

65. That's exactly it and you say it so well. How can anyone argue with that?

:thumbsup:

[scarletwoman]

66. Ah, but this is DU, people WILL argue with it. Thanks so much for your kind words.

:hug:

[earth mom]

109. It's my pleasure because I always love your posts.

:hug:

[latebloomer]

35. K&R

You speak the truth.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Too many are willing to forget that we elect servants not commanders. K&R

And, as citizens, we are not supposed to "trust" our servants, but scrutinize, criticize, and fire them when necessary.

Dictators and monarchs require loyalty. We relinquish power to our peril.

[scarletwoman]

40. Power yields nothing without a demand. If WE don't demand it, Obama can't do it.

Thanks for kicking my thread. :D

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. A pleasure, as always, my friend.

:loveya: :fistbump:

[scarletwoman]

42. My humble (and "cliche ridden propaganda" per Cali) attempt to reconcile opposing camps.

If we're going to save this country, we're going to have to get beyond fighting over appearances and get down to the roots. Expecting one human being to carry the vision for everyone is ridiculous, and it's decidedly not fair to that one human being who is beset by much larger forces.

sw

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. I'm a firm believer that politics, and politicians, are "led" by events.

As much as they'd like to think that they are the "leaders" and shapers of what happens, they are driven by the tides of history and what is actually happening.

If the people are passive and "loyal" that also shapes the direction the "leaders" take.

We must make them answer to us rather than merely lull us into complacency with promises and slogans.

[scarletwoman]

44. Exactly!

If the people are passive and "loyal" that also shapes the direction the "leaders" take.

Well said.

:loveya:
sw

[Butch350]

45. If it's secret how are we to rise up and stop it. (secret govn't) ??

[scarletwoman]

54. You rise up in support of the People. You rise up against corporatism.You rise up against militarism

You rise up against imperialism.

You rise up against all the policies that favor the financial elite to the detriment of the rest of us.

sw

[H2O Man]

46. I agree.

I believe that it is essential that people from the progressive left lobby the Obama administration. And I enjoy the sincere dissent on DU. I strongly supported Obama's candidacy, and most of the times I've contacted the administration since he has taken office, it's been to advocate for increased access for communications between President Obama and the progressive/liberal left.

Nominated.

[scarletwoman]

52. Thank you very much, H2O Man. It always means a lot to me to have your support.

And you brought up a very significant word: lobby. We the people HAVE to lobby for our concerns. If we really pulled together, we could outweigh and overwhelm all the other lobbies. If we're serious about changing how our government is run, our choice is clear.

sw

[notadmblnd]

60. you've got my support too SW

I'm not liking what I'm seeing at all, in Washington nor DU. I'll suport the president when he does what's right and I'll holler like hell when he caves to the powers that be.

[scarletwoman]

62. Thanks very much! I'm minded of the fact the Chinese glyphs for crisis & opportunity are the same.

We really need to seize this moment, it may be our last chance. We HAVE to make noise!

sw

[H2O Man]

96. Here is something

that you might like. It's a few lines that Kahlil Gibran attributes to "the second phantom" in his essay titled, "Vision":

"Life without Rebellion is like seasons without Spring."

He believed that Rebellion was one of the three manifestations of expression of the intelligent Universe.

[scarletwoman]

98. Wow! You just blew my mind.

That's just so wonderful!

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!

:loveya:
sw

[H2O Man]

99. I was reading

a collection of his books earlier today, and when I read that part, I thought, "Aha! I know my friend will appreciate this!" Very happy that you did.

[scarletwoman]

102. It was one of those "like a diamond shot into my forehead" kind of things.

We read Kahlil Gibran at my mother's funeral last fall. The Prophet was one of her favorite books, she bought copies for everyone in the family many years ago.

Thank you for this beautiful gift.

sw

[truedelphi]

112. I am right there with you., H2O man. n/t

[ProgressIn2008]

48. Well, "loving" a politician is creepy. But making excuses for the Borg - another name for that. nt

[KoKo]

49. "Gotta Keep on Truckin!"

Was my favorite saying by a long time tombstoned DU'er.

Obama wanted us to do this...any Dem President needs to have us do this. Anyone look at the Repugs? They never QUIT...they look like fools, act like fools, and have spokespersons who seem like idiots to most of us. BUT, how often do they WIN. THEY NEVER GIVE UP...

We cannot EVER GIVE UP...and when some are tired we need more honest, decent folks to pick up the burden and carry it for us. We need to keep working to get folks involved who will carry on that work way longer than we will be here. Or there will never be "Change We Can Believe In."

[nc4bo]

50. K&R because I think posts like these are so important!

We (excluding the freeps) voted for this guy. He has potential to do great things but I do not want the neocon voices to drown us out to the point where he can no longer hear us.

We CAN walk and chew gum at the same time, oh yes we can, we will and we should.

[scarletwoman]

55. "I do not want the neocon voices to drown us out to the point where he can no longer hear us." Yes!

That's exactly it!

Thank you -- love your sig pic, btw. Cracks me up every time I see it! :D

sw

[HCE SuiGeneris]

51. Word.

K & R

[scarletwoman]

56. Thank you. And I have to tell you, I have a soft spot for Vonnegut avatars.

:)

[HCE SuiGeneris]

108. From 11 years old and on...

this man formulated a large part of my outlook on life.

Cheers to you, scarletwoman.

[PM Martin]

53. k/r

[scarletwoman]

61. Merci. I wish I remembered enough French to translate your sig line beyond "strawberries". (nt)

[Kaleko]

69. It's not particularly enlightening

but here you go: "The strawberries and the raspberries and the good wines we've drunk."

Your OP is spot on, that's what I really wanted to say.

It looks like we're coming to a consensus here on DU about what we can do to empower Obama from the ground up. It's either that or powerless bitching to no avail.

[inna]

57. rec #44!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[scarletwoman]

59. Thank you! I wrote my OP in the middle of the night and felt so frustrated that I wasn't saying what

I really wanted to say as clearly as I had hoped because I was so tired and burned out. I really appreciate your support!

sw

[closeupready]

58. K&R

K&R

[chknltl]

63. I've long told my republican friends....

...that their party was hijacked by the corporatists. I ask them to vote against corporatist influence in both parties as opposed to just going along with the status quo of blindly bashing the dems while going along with their own party line. I understand that corporate influence is in our party as well but it totally hijacked the republican party which imo, is what led to it's downfall.

It is my hope that we Dems can find a way to remove the corporatist influence from our party and ultimately from our government. Do we stand by and allow the corporatist to wreck the Democratic Party as it did the republican Party? Hopefully not on our watch! For this reason I give a big THANK YOU to you scarletwoman for your OP. It's true that we won the White House but the war is far from won.

I believe that a corporatocracy is a natural spawn of capitalism unrestricted in a democracy. It eventually will supplant/kill it's parent democracy during it's ascendancy to power. IMO, this is where America is today. The struggle we face economically is in reality a fight between We The People, (democracy) and We The Corporations, (corporatocracy). Who's ahead in this fight? Well We The People DID somehow manage to elect Barack Obama now didn't we!

In the end We The People shall either regain our power over the corporatists or have it taken away from us to become servants (slaves) to the corporations. I believe that America is slowly awakening to this and beginning to see that the true enemies to democracy are less the terrorists without but more the enemies within.

(Thank you Thom Hartmann for pointing the enemy out to me)
(on edit: strongly recommended)

[scarletwoman]

64. Right on! Thank you for your thoughtful post. We have a lot of work ahead of us.

Let's get to work!

[tavalon]

75. Corporations and capitalism

Too bad tastes that taste worse together.

[chknltl]

76. Off Topic: I just took this test and it turns out that I am:

99.0% alt.polyamory purity test pure (1.0% alt.polyamory purity test corrupt).
Ok, I'll bite, so what is polyamory?

[tavalon]

77. Incredibly off topic but it means people who choose to love more than just one other

Poly = many Amory = loves. It's a created word because polygamy has gotten a weird rep from some folks in Utah and besides polyamorists come in many different arrangements. My family, for instance, is made up of two adult men, myself (and our son and the dog). We're actually a minority among our minority. Most have dyads with open relationships. Few actually cohabitate in unusual configurations but some do. There are about 100 different relating styles I've seen, so saying one is a polyamorist is really not very descriptive at all.

And now I'll return you to our regularly scheduled Professional Political Wrestling.

[chknltl]

78. Well I 'love' the OP topic

that should count for something! Sounds like you are part of a happy family. Thanks tavalon.



(Ps: The ghosts of my teachers are likely now wondering how and why I managed to get that B.A. in Cultural Anthropology :blush: )

[tavalon]

79. We are, though I miss having another female around to balance out all the testosterone

Even the dog is a boy!

[chknltl]

82. Ha! I've got three domineering females in my life!

My two dogs and my best friend-all girls! I luv em dearly-no complaints. (well maybe a tiny complaint when one gets into the garbage or when the two legged one nags me to remove the incentive!) That must make me one of those poly-amora thingamabobs!

btw, (and back a bit to the OP's topic) I enjoyed your response to the newbee with the voter demographics question. My local demographic is not rural but more of a suburb of a very blue Tacoma and yet I appear to be the only dem in my neighborhood! My neighbors, (bush supporters all), are quite aware that I am the 'token dem' because I am quite outspoken with them politically as they are with me. It is with these folks I speak on topics such as capitalism unrestricted. I think, to some extent they are getting it because I speak to them from my own overly simplistic view of things.

For instance, I'll first ask them if they know of a better form of governance than democracy. I'll next ask them who had the money during the Great Depression, was it the poor, the middle class, the modestly wealthy or was it the ultra rich. Then I'll ask where the money in America appears to be these days. The next question I ask is if they feel that our government is controlled more by money than it is by the needs of it's citizenry. Lastly I'll ask if democracy in America can survive if only the ultra rich control our government with that money!

Sometimes these conversations between us neighbors is lengthy but so far, I've gotten most of them to concede that there is no better form of governance than democracy and somehow, We The People need to come together against those who are trying to take our government (and our money) away from us. (I got two of them to vote for Obama!)

I know that I see things in an overly simplistic fashion but that's how my mind works. The corporate devil as we call it, is just doing what comes natural: seeking to grow it's profit margin. On the face of it, this sounds as American as apple pie but sadly it can indeed lead to the death of our democracy if left unregulated. I know I'm preaching to the choir here in the DU on this topic but these notions are quite novel among my neighbors. I actually encourage them them to sound off to me when they catch a dem looking to 'build a bridge to nowhere'. It is my hope, if I can get my neighbors to start seeing the evils as well as the benefits of corporatism, that they will become pro government regulating corporations without thinking of it so much as socialism but instead as protecting and strengthening our capitalistic democracy.

[bertman]

67. TELL IT, SISTER!!!!

Recommend.

[scarletwoman]

85. Thanks much! Sorry to be so late in replying.

Your enthusiasm really gave me a lift!

:*

[bertman]

106. My pleasure.

[No.23]

68. Faith stills rules most folk, and not reason.

Until that changes, we'll continue to have different versions of the same ol' same ol'.

[scarletwoman]

87. The thing is, DU is its own particular universe of people who sincerely value critical thinking.

I'm not willing to count any DUers out. For the most part, they wouldn't be here if they weren't looking for knowledge and understanding -- not just "faith".

sw

[Truth2Tell]

70. K&R nt

[scarletwoman]

88. Thank you. I love that Kucinich pic! (nt)

[omega minimo]

71. anathema... like the Star Spackled Banner?

:yourock:

[scarletwoman]

91. !!!

:D

Thank you, :yourock: too.

:hug:
sw

[jwirr]

72. I do not want to criticize as much as I want to encourage. What exactly

did the 1930s people do to MAKE FDR do what they wanted him to do even though the big boys did not want him to?

I am referring to the story told about how FDR at first did not do what liberals of that day wanted him to do and in a meeting with them he said "Go home and make me do it." He needed their "encouragement" to force him to make the kind of changes they needed then. No one wants to hang out on a limb alone. He needed the world to see that the people were behind him. If that happened then congress could not refuse to go along with him and he would not take the blame for the ideas all by himself.

This is where I see President Obama at today. It seems that the polls are not enough. Our requests on his internet sites do not seem to be enough. What do we have to do to MAKE him do what we want? Is he waiting for the same thing FDR was waiting for? If so why doesn't he tell us like FDR did?

The one positive I see so far is Howard Dean's organization gearing up to fight for a single payer health care bill.

[scarletwoman]

92. Excellent questions!Thank you for your thoughtful post! I don't pretend to have the answers, however

I really do believe that what we need to do is build an on-the-ground movement that rallies people and channels their anger and frustration into organized political activism.

I think health care is the perfect starting point -- yes, there's a noisy minority trying to whip up hysteria over "socialism" -- but I truly believe that for most ordinary people, if you tell them you think that we should have the same kind of health care program that our elected political officials have, they will immediately "get it".

What FDR had going for him was the fact the Left was a much more vibrant force in those days. Ordinary people readily understood the concept of the Class War. Our current crisis is a golden opportunity for resurrecting the concept of the Class War and sell it to our fellow citizens.

We start by creatively re-framing what's happening. Ordinary people instinctively know that they're being screwed, they just don't understand precisely how and why. Lay it out so that people can look at it and think "Aha! So THAT'S what it is!"

We can do this, I truly believe we can. You know, "Yes, we can!" :rofl:

Peace,
sw

[bleever]

73. "Make me do it."

FDR wanted his own partisan dissidents to make their voices heard, so that the "center" was calibrated to include the full spectrum of both parties, because he knew that the Republican fringe would be as loud as possible, while his own party would have part of itself disenfranchised if it were intimidated into being quiet through the fear that its dissent would hurt the president.

Dissent is more than patriotic. It is essential to the power of the elected to represent their constituency.


Excellent post!

[scarletwoman]

94. Well said! Thank you! I wish I could recommend your post.

Dissent is more than patriotic. It is essential to the power of the elected to represent their constituency.

Right on! :yourock:

Thanks again,
sw

[tavalon]

74. Good pushback

It's time our fellow DUers know what is expected of them as patriots from day one with this administration or any administration. Only foolish and servile people lockstep with their leaders.

[scarletwoman]

95. Thanks. Great points! (nt)

[Political Heretic]

80. One small quibble scarletwoman:

"You want to believe that he's a good-hearted leader who is doing his best to navigate through unprecidented and extradordinarily difficult times."

Hang on - I think almost all of us believe he's a good-hearted leader who trying hard to navigate through unprecidented times. I just don't want people get the false idea that somehow those of us who are engaged in active criticism and questioning (beyond just internet forums by the way) are doing so because we think Obama is a bad person or deliberately "evil" or something, while those who are blindly waving pom poms and attacking anyone with concerns are the once with a monopoly on Obama love.

It's precisely because I believe Obama is basically good-hearted and actually attempting to do something good for America that I'm so vocal. If I didn't believe that, I'd just be in "fuck it" mode and silent.

In response to the "its only been 2 months" people I have pointed out that its not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.

But to the people who try to claim that we "hate" Obama or attack his motives I say its not about MOTIVES its about DIRECTION.

[scarletwoman]

97. All excellent points. I honestly didn't mean to imply that people DON'T believe he's "good-hearted",

it may be that my syntax was unclear. (It WAS almost 2 in the morning when I composed my OP...)

I know I've never thought that Obama is "deliberately evil" -- no way. When I express dismay over some of his personnel and policy choices, it's precisely the fact that I DO believe he's essentially a good and caring human being that causes my dismay -- same as you.

In response to the "its only been 2 months" people I have pointed out that its not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.

But to the people who try to claim that we "hate" Obama or attack his motives I say its not about MOTIVES its about DIRECTION.

Totally dead on.

Thanks,
sw

[dreamnightwind]

81. no BORG money in our politcs

Though we have many battles to fight, I think we need to put tremendous energy into getting all BORG money out of our elections. No exceptions, no loopholes, nothing. No bundlers, no organized money whatsoever, just small limited individual donations sent directly by the individual to the campaign. We'd need to do the same thing for Democratic and Republican party money. They won't give up corporate money without a fight. With the current economic crisis, there is a huge distrust of large corporations (as there should be), and we have an opportunity to wrest power back to the citizens.

Would Obama be our ally in such a fight? His campaign rhetoric suggests so, but his Washington associates suggest not.

On this, and every other issue, we need to do as the OP suggests. Force the issue. Make him do the right thing. Provide him a context where doing the right thing isn't political suicide. Then we'll find out who our President truly is (I'm not so sure who he is, but regardless, this is the way to find out).

[scarletwoman]

100. You're absolutely correct. Our current system of campaign finance is utterly corrupt.

No exceptions, no loopholes, nothing. No bundlers, no organized money whatsoever, just small limited individual donations sent directly by the individual to the campaign.

I totally agree. Many thanks you for your post.

sw

[Time for change]

83. Excellent advice

Here's a post that reinforces that advice and even suggests that that may be what Obama wants us to do:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5361126#5366496

[scarletwoman]

84. I appreciate your support -- and thanks for kicking my thread.

:)

I think that our two threads have sort of symbiotic relationship -- how cool is that?

Thanks again,
sw

[myrna minx]

86. Leave it to you to bring levity and a thoughtful perspective to this debate.

Well done. K&R. :hi: SW. (Do we dare hope to have a second Senator soon?)

[scarletwoman]

90. Aw shucks. Thank you. No, we do not dare hope we'll have a second Senator soon, & it's really

pissing me off. Norm the Weasel is angling to take this all the way to the right wing dominated SCOTUS, bet on it.

I think we Minnesota Dems are going to have to get organized and figure out some way to derail Coleman's strategy. I don't have any particular ideas as yet, but I think we better do something. The Repugs are intent on dragging this out as long as possible, in order to prevent there being 59 Dems seated in the Senate. I think it's time to stop with the "Minnesota nice" - patiently waiting for the legal process to play out - and get down and dirty.

Smear his ass until the good, stoic citizens of Minnesota DEMAND he STFU and go away.

(way to go off-topic on my own thread! :P )

sw

[myrna minx]

93. Ha. You thread jacked your own thread!

I agree with you. Normie is just trying to run out the clock, and unfortunately, his strategy is working, but it's not winning him any fans around Minneapolis.

Well, he does have potential legal troubles, which could make his lose a little footing. I just want him to slither back under his rock and leave the good people of our state alone.

:hi:

edit: trouble spelling the name of my own city. :silly:

[scarletwoman]

103. Heh. It's my thread, I can jack if I want to...

:P

Glad to hear that the good people of Mipplenapolis are not pleased.

sw

[jwirr]

107. And it looks like they are going to try the same thing in NY now. Damn.

[Echo In Light]

89. Good post

[reprehensor]

101. Yeah.

What she said.

[pleah]

104. Bravo!

To late to rec.:-(

I think people forget that they work for us, we the people. If we don't demand change, the change we get won't be good for any of us.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[scarletwoman]

105. You've got it -- we the people have to demand change.

Thanks for your post!

sw

[Hawkowl]

113. I volunteer for the away team.

If needed, I volunteer to penetrate the Borg ship and retrieve the President.

[scarletwoman]

114. Excellent! We need all the volunteers we can get!

Penetrating and rescuing him from the Borg is essential to the survival of our democracy -- seriously!

Thank you for your post -- gave me a smile! :)

sw

[scarletwoman]

116. Kicking as an antidote to the "why are you so mean to Obama?" posts. (nt)