YES WE CAN....bust your unions by closing down your factories while giving trillons to wall street

[IrishBuckeye]

I didn't vote for this. Why does Obama attack the companies who provide a good wage and healthcare for the American middle class blue collar worker while similtaniously handing out trillions to the Wall Street suits who turn around and give millions as bonues? Is Obama just another politian? Was I fooled yet again by slick slogans and speeches? Why the double standard?

[tekisui]

1. Your concern is noted.

:eyes:

[newtothegame]

30. And you aren't "concerned?" Why exactly are you on this site?

Your anti-union and pro-wall street views don't exactly fit in around here. Alerted.

[tekisui]

46. Alerted?

:rofl:

Obama's administration is saving the auto industry from itself. He isn't busting unions. You have no idea of my views, obviously.

[FiveGoodMen]

72. Your bad attitude has put you on ignore

:thumbsdown:

[cap]

2. hold on a minute.... Obama's base is in the midwest with those unions

I do think he has something up his sleeve. Whether that means GM and Chrysler will continue to exist or not is another matter.

[IrishBuckeye]

3. I hope your right, I hope the idea is that this will force GM bondholders into accepting

an offer that helps the company survive. It's time we reward companies who help the middle class and not punish them.

[cap]

6. This is like Huckabee telling the Christian Coalition to adopt a pro-choice

platform. Think about it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. Second guessing Obama is getting tiresome. As is continuing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[earth mom]

48. You mean the "base" that he called "bitter" during his campaign?

Wonder how many union members are remembering those words now?

Given Obama's behavior right now, it looks and sounds more and more like he really meant those words even though everybody excused the hell out of those words during his campaign.

Let's face it. The public has been bamboozled by a politician once again.

:grr:

[sojourner]

78. "something up his sleeve".........Obama is smarter than most around here give him credit for.

I think there may be WAY MORE than meets the eye going on, and I'm so glad to have Obama in the White House.

[MellowDem]

4. Because the auto industry isn't the financial market

One can fail without toppling the economy completely, the other cannot. The auto industry (and every other industry) would fail if the financial markets failed. Not so the other way around. And while I have nothing against the auto workers or the fact that these companies pay great wages and benefits to their workers, the auto companies themselves are fooling you. They were just as bad as the banks in their greed and irresponsibility. The banks pay their workers well as well. Doesn't make them angelic in my eyes.

[IrishBuckeye]

8. Then they (banks) should be nationalized as a national security concern

But they aren't so I don't buy that the entire economy would topple if some banks failed. The fact is the governemnt has given trillion to prop up the same suits who made a mess in the first place. I agree the auto companies have been greedy and irresponsible, nothing on par with the banks mind you, but if you going to pat one on the back with trillions of dollars don't slap the other one in face, especially when that face belongs to the middle class American worker.

[MellowDem]

28. I agree they should be nationalized...

the thing is, even if they're nationalized, they would have to use those same suits they propped up to get them out of the mess. The level of expertise requried would not be able to be supplied by the government, only by other private entities. The government doesn't have a large group of expert bankers standing by to take over the financial markets. Those are all in the companies that failed or the ones that are still surviving.

It is a slap in the face for the fact that the auto industry employs a lot more middle class people than the banking industry directly does per se, but it's not intentional. A lot of middle class people were screwed by Enron as well.

[Deja Q]

60. I agree, re: the national security concern

I doubt the economy would fail either; the big ones would buy the little ones until we're stuck with a gaggle of monopolies to be broken up again.

Why are there days I feel the economy is a big-ass yo-yo and we're the plastic bit and they're the string?

[MindPilot]

17. Those icky auto workers get their hands dirty

so they are just not as worthy as a banker.

Yeah, I get it. I've been getting it all my life and that is what this boils down to--pure classism.

[MellowDem]

69. Not quite...

those icky auto workers get paid better than a lot of white collar workers in America, and with better benefits too. So much for classism based on how dirty your hands are.

[MindPilot]

82. Sometimes it not about the money. n/t

[MellowDem]

83. In this case it is

I find it hard to sympathize with auto workers any more than I do with any other profession that is having a hard time due to changes in the global economy. Auto workers have had it real good for a long time compared to others, thanks in part to their companies keeping us addicted to oil, protectionism, and subsidies. And while I'm sorry for their losses, the constant hyperbole and accusations of classism are pretty grating.

[MindPilot]

87. But YOU are doing OK, right?

[MellowDem]

89. Depends on your perspective...

I just graduated from college and work for AmeriCorps. I have my health, but not much else materially. I'm happy though and quite fortunate in many ways compared to many of those I help. I try not to just concentrate on one group of people's well being when looking at complicated economic issues, much less only my own.

[amandabeech]

34. The auto companies don't pay as great a wage and benefit package as they used to.

The UAW has given up a lot over the past few years, although nobody here will admit to knowing about it.

Some banks are more solvent than others and are willing to lend more now.

The big banks that are getting the most money are zombies and are not doing a lot to help the economy.

Those big banks are not only guilty of insane bonuses but of producing and selling poison products that threaten to take down the world financial system or at least lose everyone an almost indescribable amount of money.

You've heard of "financial weapons of mass destruction," "toxic assets, "CDO's, MBS's and CDS's." Those are more dangerous than any product that Detroit has ever put out, including the explode-on-rear-impact Ford Pinto.

Let those banks, here and abroad, particularly those banks who didn't even sell these poison products, take up the slack. I'm sure that a market like ours will not go without service for more than a few hours. Where demand exists, supply will follow. Isn't that the theory?

If we have to, in the meantime, keep a couple of our big financial institutions going, let's treat them like we treat automakers. Fire the chief executives, make the bondholders take a huge hit, make them show us exactly how they do business, force them to do business exactly as we want, and tell everyone who works there and their retirees that they have to take a big pay and benefit cut.

Let the rest of them wind down their businesses in the bankruptcy court where everyone will take a hit. If the bankruptcy code needs adjusting to take out any "special favor" legislation before the financial institutions go down, then we do it now.

No one has every put out a real study that shows that we come out ahead if we continue to prop up financial institutions with no strings, no suffering bailouts. If have it, please post it. All I have are financiers and people too close to them saying that they are above all and that we will die without them.

To close, the banksters aren't helping us now, and we're still here.

[acmavm]

40. The auto industry is THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS. It would be

nice to be able to view this situation as simplistically some people do. But then, you have to be a few loads short of a brick

[geek tragedy]

5. Bankruptcy is the only way to get the bondholders to accept

less than face value.

Given GM's debt, that has to happen for the company to be viable.

[KharmaTrain]

14. Shhhh...Don't Let Reality Get In The Way Of A Good Rage...

GM has been a stumbling giant for decades. They've been playing catch up with the imports and it wasn't just on price, it was on quality as well. GM worked to stonewall alternative energy development and hedged on cheap oil prices to go on forever...over producing gas guzzlers that became cost prohibitive for many to drive when gas soared to $3 and $4 a gallon. The UAW didn't bring on this collapse, nor Toyota...it was all the beloved "marketplace" and the short-term vision of its management.

Bankruptcy may just be the only way to completely clean house and re-organize the auto industry to make it more competitive and viable. Bondholders, as you say, need to accept less than face value and assets need to be either sold off or reorganized under new corporate entities that can create a new, more viable American auto industry.

[IrishBuckeye]

18. Rage? Let's look at the facts.

American car quality is now on par with imports:

http://autos.aol.com/article/truck/american-car-quality/20080812154509990001

GM produced what consumers wanted: SUV's and trucks were outselling cars just a few years ago, they produced what the market demanded.

Toyota is also losing money and asking Japan for for bailout money and the Japanese governemnt has propped up Toyota in the past, in fact if it hadn't Toyota would have went under long ago.


All that said, GM mangament screw up big. I agree with your main point, they had short term vision...kind of like the banks. You know, the ones getting trillions of dollars? Absolutely a double standard. So yea, I guess I am raging over the facts.

[KharmaTrain]

26. Rage That Was A Little Late

I'm not blaming you...or the many who long were both frustrated and angry at a system that we saw was working against the middle class and detaching from reality. Many of these trillions were phantom dollars that the previous regime let the corporates raid the treasury for 8 solid years...first with sweetheart contract deals (war is good for business) and more deregulation...then with massive bailouts that are filtering into corporate pockets all around the globe.

We're just starting to learn how deep this financial fiasco has gone and who was responsible. It was an outrage that this crisis was let to fester for months...and only now is the government getting its act together to put a floor to the financial collapse that has paralyized this economy. It's a 30 year mess that was covered up well...a far cry from the auto industries problems. Those have been out front for years. They gambled on the short term and when the market turned, they had nothing to fall back on. They kept building Hummers and shut out production of electric cars.

I've driven Fords and GMs for a majority of my 35 plus years of driving. I won't go into the litany of problems I had over the years...not just with the cars falling apart, but the problems with service. Several years ago, I was looking for a car that had good gas mileage...in specific...one that had a stick shift. None of the big 3 dealers I went to had such an animal. It came down to Nissan and Honda. I chose the Nissan as it was assembled in Ohio and I haven't had any regrets....it still gets 30 MPG and it hasn't started to nickle and dime.

I'd love for my next car to be one that a hybrid...and one made in the U.S. If there's a GM or Ford or Chrysler...I'll be very open to consider them, but no such animal currently exists. I'm hopeful I have more than just three American companies to choose from.

[geek tragedy]

52. You and your 72 posts here have a quite

interesting perspective and willful ignorance of facts that tend to back Obama up--like the whole bond holders thing.

Anyway, toodles noob.

Making my list, checking it twice.

[amandabeech]

35. It appears to be the only way to get the banks' bondholders to do the same.

We've been coddling them for too long.

Let's get them, too.

Yeah, and the banksters have lots of bad debt on their books. They were stoopid and gave out money to people who can't now pay it back.

To be viable the banks have to get their bond holders to give up a lot.

Otherwise it's the taxpayers who will consider to pour money down the bankers' black hole.

[Odin2005]

80. Quit using facts, "real populist progressives" don't use facts. *SARCASM*

They are like the Neo-Cons, they make up their own facts to fit the ideology.

[Deep13]

7. "...attack the companies..."

How is declining to help an "attack." The problem with all of these angry posts comparing GM with the financial bailouts is that it overlooks the fact that GM would probably go bankrupt even with government help. Just because the success of GM is necessary does not mean it is available.

[KharmaTrain]

9. Nice Projection Work...

First of all, Obama DIDN'T give bonuses to Wall Street suits. Some were written into contracts that were enacted long before President Obama was elected and others, as we're seeing, were done as the booosh regime was winding down and they knew that they could get away with this shit...even if it was illegal.

A solvent banking system makes a viable automotive industry possible. Without credit, people can't buy cars, suppliers can't produce parts and the economy remains stagnant. The banks have to be nationalized, but the scope of this financial mess is still being sorted out. There's no silver bullet here...and allowing the banking system to go totally bust puts a lot more people out of work than just autoworkers and will make the road back a lot longer and harder.

Is President Obama another politician? Yes. So? What did you expect him to be? He works with the system he's dealt with and the people who others have elected to represent them.

I guess you forgot about what happens when lock-step one party rule does to this country. Those people weren't politicians...they were demogogues. Yes, Obama is a politician who was elected to bring consensus and solutions...you don't get those by polarizing the country further.

Sorry you "didn't vote for this"...I'm sure President Obama is truly shattered.

:nopity:

[tekisui]

10. I took that "didn't vote for this" to mean they voted for someone else.

[KharmaTrain]

12. Everyone Wants A Pony

I'll try to give the OP the benefit of the doubt. The problem is some can't understand the differences between campaigning and governing.

Cheers...

[IrishBuckeye]

13. no, I vote and worked to get Obama elected, to protect the American workers Bush flipped off

the lack of transparency in reguard to the bank bailout money is angering. Add to that the auto companies are asking for roughly 2% of what the bank bailout will cost increases that anger. Wall Street always wins, even when they lose. It really is that simple and the middle class worker more often than not are stuck with paying for the bill time and time again.

[amandabeech]

38. The banks here are sucking us dry.

They will not stop it.

There are banks in the world that are in better shape. The Canadians, for example. How about the Germans and the Chinese. Let's invite them in.

One of the problems that GM is having is that the banks aren't lending to them, and they're having a hard time in the commercial paper and collateralized auto loan market, too. The banks that we are propping up aren't buying the paper or the auto loans, either.

The union workers and retirees have contracts, too, and they've been doing the give-back shuffle for a while now. Obama should sit on the banks and make their employees and retirees give up pay and benefits, too. It's only fair.

Letting Citibank and its friends go bust will mean that whoever comes in to take those banks's place will hire those employees with a decent track record.

The non-union, state-subsized competition of GM generally will not hire anyone who has been a union member.

I used to argue with people who said that we have one-party rule in this country, saying that the Democrats would be different. Now, in economics at least, we do have one party rule.

A nice, clean white collar industry with headquarters on the coasts can do no wrong and gets all the help. A manufacturing corporation with lots of blue collar workers headquartered in the middle of the country is all evil and should get very little help.

I don't belong to the same party as you. Take it how you will.

[CANDO]

84. Why are wall street "contracts" sacrosanct?

And any "collective bargaining agreements" not?

[MindPilot]

11. Obama's union busting would make Reagan blush

Taking out the UAW within the first 100 days, promising to increase H1B visas, yes, for the non-CEO class, Obama has accomplished what republicans could only dream about.

I guess I did vote for hope and change after all: I hope I can keep a job and time to change careers.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

15. Yes. Obama is as anti-Union as Reagan.

:eyes:

[Mari333]

16. good post. nt

[dionysus]

19. you consider anything bashing obama as a good post. pathetic.

:rofl:

[Mari333]

20. paint with a broad brush much, kid?

dont have much more to say then personal attacks.

[dionysus]

21. no, i've been seeing you cheer on the bash posts all over the place...

:shrug:

[Mari333]

22. I take it you dont like critiques.

you call critique 'bash'. I call it critique and democratic discourse. aye, theres the rub.
peace
out.

[dionysus]

24. directly comparing him to reagan is a "bash".

[Mari333]

25. reagan broke up the unions back in the day, one way

was to give huge tax breaks to corporations, with the promise they would 'rebuild america' with the money. they didnt. they moved their factories and jobs to slave countries where they set up slave labour . outsourced the jobs.
clinton put the final nail in the coffin with NAFTA.
When I see Obama stand up and say stop the outsourcing or we will tax the hell out of any corporation that does so, and start denying HB1 visas, and start discussing wage increases vis a vis union organizing and fair market wages, and slam or fire the CEOs of ALL who have been bailed out, then I will be pleased. Right now he is reminding me of Clinton acceding to the republican vision of corporations first workers second.
But, then, I think maybe Obama is just a figurehead and has no power over the corporations and moneyed interests who really run the country and who profit mightily from keeping people working at slave wages. I wish it werent so, but it seems to be looking that way.
whatever. be well.

[MindPilot]

54. Well said! n/t

[Last Stand]

59. That post sickens me

because I know you're right.

We are meeting the new boss...

[blindpig]

36. It's Bill Clinton redux in spades.

Just as the Republicans couldn't seriously attack the social safety net, they got a Democrat to do it......

[amandabeech]

39. He's going after the teachers, too.

I doubt if it will end with them, either.

[geek tragedy]

50. And your post would make Sean Hannity blush.

I'm making a list, checking it twice.

[MindPilot]

55. Better check it more that twice

Wouldn't want to get any party loyalists on that list by mistake.

You may actually have to face the realization that Obama has now shown his true DLC corporist colors.

[blindpig]

85. So, who the fuck are you?

I'm making a list, checking it twice.

Cop? Snitch? Vigilante? Agent Mike?

Sounds like a not so veiled threat to me.

[chuckrocks]

56. unions are dying

Where would the average moran be without the unions? Never in a million years would I believe that it would be a Dem that busts the unions. My grandmother worked for Leir Seigler, my father is a retired pipe fitter. My uncle worked for the GM plant in Wyoming MI. Does it not seem like this was coming back in the * years? When they start talking about reorganization I hear at will termination. When they say sacrifice and compromise I hear cutting wages instead of taking bailout money. Cutting them in half, by 75% even. Who will stop them after this precedent? And if this costs the Dems the labor workers and their families, when the thugs are in control, how will they reduce the debt? By finishing off health care? SS? IMHO this is worse than Reagan, because the next round of politicians and their "troubled economy" aren't going after my taxes. The CEO's will be free to pay whatever, the hardware store, the discount tire, drug store, will there be a living wage anymore? a minimum? I don't see one if this is how the worker's end of this is going to go. Talk me down! A new favorite phrase. Obama is doing a LOT, I understand, I have so much respect for an intelligent Prez. I can only hope this is someone else's idea to ignore the obvious repercussions.
Is there going to be a half-assed back step when the public is outraged like the bonus fiasco? It'll be too late to close the barn door by then. This isn't bonus money, this isn't tax money or my kid's debt. If companies can arrange themselves to make more by paying less to employees, it won't be an issue of paying taxes for my boys, it's going to be feeding their kids. I'm sorry, messing with labor so much lately, and by lately I mean the last 9 years- It worries me.

[Deja Q]

61. Scary... but since you know everything, what career will be solid and safe?

[MindPilot]

64. I'm thinking those closed plants are going to need security guards.

BTW when did I ever even allude to knowing everything? I will freely admit to having opinions on everything, but that frequently has little and nothing to do with knowledge. :D

[Deja Q]

62. Remember Ralph Nader's comment; something about "Uncle Tom vs Uncle Sam"?

Something to that effect?

What's your take on that now?

[MindPilot]

66. It looks like Ralph may have been a bit of a prophet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkoB4r9FSzY

I don't recall hearing that comment when it was fisrt made. Thanks for that!

[Skidmore]

23. Oh, BS. You can darn well count on the terrorists at the head of the

financial sector have been threatening behind closed doors to detonate the universe as we know it if they can't keep their ill-gotten gains.

[Canuckistanian]

27. Bull. GM pretty much closed itself down

And it's still up in the air if it can be rescued, even if it were to get 100s of billions in bailout.

GM is dead. The only thing that we're debating is exactly WHAT will rise out of the ashes.

[amandabeech]

41. If you're talking 100s of billions in bailout, then you're talking about the banks.

But really, they're getting trillions and we keep propping up them and their financial weapons of mass destruction.

You should stick to posting on the Canadian forum where you might even get the facts straight.

BTB, Canada will suffer from this, too. Particularly Ontario. I hope you and yours go down in a big way. I think that may be the only way that someone like you with a 1/16th of a heart will learn anything.

[Canuckistanian]

74. My post said "EVEN IF" they get 100s of billions

And that was rather a personal remark.

Next time, I won't pay for your star.

[Canuckistanian]

77. I see you're not taking PMs

Nor are you responding to my post.

I'm regretting sponsoring your star now.

[Soylent Brice]

29. ahem...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5362814

[redqueen]

31. See, this is the kind of crap that I wonder if people really consider "constructive criticism".

I sure don't.

Yet the True Progressives^TM will squeal "GOOSESTEPPER!" if anyone dares to criticize this kind of bullshit.

[geek tragedy]

53. It's flamebait and concern trolling, drawing

in more of the "Obama is Darth Vader" crowd.

[redqueen]

73. It just puzzles me how so many want to shut down

any discussion of this obvious BS by claiming that anyone weary of it is trying to "shut down criticism".

:crazy:

And obviously alerting does absolutely no good. So... I'm at a loss.

[IrishBuckeye]

75. It's our duty to scream bullshit when Wall street & Main Street are treated differently

I understand what is happening is nothing new, there are 2 sets of rules we all know that. But we elected a President to tear down that wall, not support it. Trillions to the banks and the auto companies who support millions of middel class workers bear the brunt assult by the Obama camp?

I'm not going to sit ideally by and listen to someone say the middle class needs to make more painful concessions as the banks who took billions give away million dollar bonus just a week earlier, that is pure bullshit.

[Celebration]

32. LOL--this thread

Is there anyone here who doesn't see through this? Take a close look.

:rofl:

[MadBadger]

37. I'm not surprised

I've come to expect stupid shit like this from buckeyes.

[amandabeech]

43. That was uncalled for.

Apparently, you're very young.

Many parts of your state once did and maybe still do produce vehicle parts.

If GM goes down, those parts dealers may very well go down, too, especially because our President is allowing this to happen in a deep recession in which parts orders from other manufacturers will not help keep the shops open.

I remember the strength and vitality of Wisconsin when there were decent jobs to be had in the auto industry. Folks who were not college material could support their families with dignity by putting in a hard days' work in factories.

Back in those days, people from Wisconsin were the nicest, warmest hearted Americans that you could find from the plant janitor to the plant president.

Perhaps the economic decline in Wisconsin is the reason for the current very rapid decline in civility and basic humanity that your remarks suggest.

[madmom]

45. broad brush much?

[MadBadger]

47. At least the OP's name wasnt IrishWolverine

[madmom]

51. Yeah and at least I can say my name isn't madbadger. What's your point?

[amborin]

42. i've posted this 5x: the car czars are investment bankers

[amandabeech]

44. Are you referring to former internal financial V.P.s,

or are you suggesting that the auto companies are investment banks?

[Romulox]

49. All the members of Obama auto restructuring team are Wall Street insiders.

Only 2 out of 20 own an American car. :hi:

[amandabeech]

57. It's what I expected.

When they purge the dissenters from DU, you and I will go together.

I grew up in West Michigan, where I still go every chance I get because my 87-year old Mom and my 89-year-old bachelor uncle live there.

Uncle is retired from the line at the old Fisher Body plant in Grand Rapids. He's dying and currently is in the rehab hospital. I think that he has enough saved so that he won't need too much help when his pension is cut in half and his health plan is greatly reduced.

My mom, my aunt, and two of my cousins are or were public school teachers. I Mom really needs her pension and her medi-gap policy is affordable. I hope that she won't get hit to badly when the state pension funds crumple.
Maybe I can get a job with the TARP clean up so that I can send her more.

I appreciate your posts greatly! I'll keep it up as long as I can, but I have my limits and my ignore list keeps on growing.

Good luck to you and yours.

Amanda

:hi:

[arthritisR_US]

65. I hear ya Amanda and the double standard is reaching the boiling point for me!

Take care and my best to you and yours :thumbsup:

[amandabeech]

70. Thanks! Same to you!!

P.S. Would you send us some of your solvent banks?

[amborin]

71. i mean the car czars advising Obama, who ousted Wagoner

[graywarrior]

58. I see the DU financial experts and advisors are at it again.

If only Obama knew as much.

[Deja Q]

63. I'm not convinced either.

Especially when he'd reversed a couple of * executive orders that were anti-worker...
(they were on DU, from a month or so ago)

[graywarrior]

67. Guess being fickle is an attribute here.

Hell, one day I want to sleep with Alan Rickman, and the next day I want to cut his heart out.

[rucky]

68. What's to say this wouldn't have happened with the bailout?

we don't know the terms GM or the White House was asking for. I'm willing to guess, though, that the money was offered and refused because of the conditions.

[depakid]

76. Not one thing- GM has been heading the tubes for decades

and the problems are largely structural:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

[Odin2005]

79. Hmmm, post count of 73. Your tombstone pizza will be with you shortly.

[LWolf]

81. You shouldn't have been fooled.

I don't know why you ever thought Obama was friendly to labor. I never did, and I never supported him. I listened, and read his policy papers.

Your thread title would make a good sig line.

[Badlands Democrat]

86. Can't you Obama-haters crawl back into your caves?

He's been President for 2.5 months now. Geez.

[FLAprogressive]

88. Nobody "hates" Obama....there are quite a few however that are dissapointed in the direction he's

going at the moment. And many of us donated our time and money to help the campaign......

[inwiththenew]

90. The writing has been on the wall for a long time

When it comes to GM. They hung their hats on their suv and truck lines and we know what happened there. But even before that GM stopped innovating decades ago. They may be trying to do it now but from about the mid to late 1970's on what we got from GM was a lot of the same vehicle re-badged two sometimes three times.

For example the GMC and Chevy suv and truck lines were and for the most part still are almost the exact same vehicle with just different badges. At one point they were producing a Chevy Blazer, a GMC Jimmy, and a Oldsmobile Bravada that were basically the same vehicle re-badged. Then to a lesser extent you have the Firebird and Camaro and Cavalier and Sun Fire and the list goes on. GM rested on their laurels for far too long and watched upstart import car companies come in and slowly but surely eat away at their market share.