OK, fine. Capitalism is poison. It's evil. It's unreformable.

[cali]

What are you going to replace it with? And don't say European style socialism, because essentially, that's capitalism, folks. It's somewhat of a mixed economy- which is what I support, but it's essentially capitalism with a strong social safety net, and with the state controlling certain neccessary assets/utilities/industries. That's the economic model I support.

So in your utopia, what's the system that replaces capitalism?

[pnutbutr]

1. this should be good

:popcorn:

[Dorian Gray]

131. Almost

every single thread I've opened today has started this same way. Maybe it shows the topics I'm attracted to!

[MADem]

2. I like capitalism with a few regulations. Not this "greed is good" shit. nt

[Believing Is Art]

3. Anarcho-socialist atheist theocracy

My utopia is a very strange place.

[cali]

4. sounds like an, um, interesting place

[pnutbutr]

8. dividing

by zero sounds easier

[Believing Is Art]

16. Instead of elections,

there are Roman style fights to the death over which party will be in power. Parliament, however, retains equal representation from each faction. It gets a little tricky. Things ran most smoothly when the anarchist won the death match. He tried to dissolve Parliament, but they refused and just handled the day-to-day without any interference from him.

[pnutbutr]

20. rofl nt

[NeedleCast]

67. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter

This topic is of interest to me!

[hendo]

69. roman style fights to the death

sounds like a great solution to our politician problem.

[burning rain]

126. Funny!

I suggest you base the economy on hi-tech Luddism.

[Skwmom]

5. So you think we live under a system of capitalism?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Thanks for the morning chuckle.

I could call this a lot of things, but capitalism isn't one of them.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[notadmblnd]

12. Why are you so condesending to people that disagree with you?

You call people names and ridicule them as if you are the only person entitled to an opinion, and only your opinion is the correct one.

People tell me that I'm not a very nice person. But you make me look like a pussy cat.

[cali]

15. I don't like the kind of blatant dishonesty that the poster demonstrated

by stating that I said something I never came within a mile of saying. That poster wasn't only condescending to me, they were blatantly disrespectful when they decided to grossly misrepresent what I said.

I give back what I'm given here. Treat me with disrespect and twist my words, you're not going to get respect back. I'll call you on it. I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I do mind their twisting my words.

[Fumesucker]

19. That we live under a capitalistic system is implicit in your OP..

"What are we going to replace it with?" ("it" being capitalism)

"Replace" assumes that something is already in place.

[cali]

22. bzzzt.

It's somewhat of a mixed economy- which is what I support, but it's essentially capitalism with a strong social safety net, and with the state controlling certain neccessary assets/utilities/industries. That's the economic model I support.

That's from the OP.

[Fumesucker]

25. Strong social safety net?

Not on the planet I'm living on..

We wouldn't have people living in cars and under bridges if we had a "strong social safety net".

No, what we have is very close to unregulated capitalism, for the big guys.

The little guys however are regulated to death.

Which is how the big guys want it.

[ShortnFiery]

26. Yes, Thom Hartmann terms "Predatory Capitalism" - I've got mine and screw everybody else.

:(

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

52. She was being rude and condescending

Lol - you're bias is showing!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. And your post is NOT disingenuous?

People wanting to 'get rid of capitalism' are few and far between - but those calling for an end to unfettered capitalism, unregulated capitalism, are accused of wanting to 'destroy' capitalism.

Strawman.

[mudesi]

59. Cali: Your OP Is Devoid Of Content

You're essentially asking us to define the word "capitalism", only you did it in the most flame baity way possible.

[ShortnFiery]

14. What should we call it when Wall Street and The Pentagon in concert with our Representatives RUN

Barter Town?!? :wow:

If the recent Big Bank and Corporate BAIL-OUTS and the re-dedication to empire in the Middle East are any indicators, we're slouching toward full blown FASCISM.

http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm

Fascism is a government structure. The most notable characteristic of a fascist country is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population based upon superficial qualities or belief systems.

Simply stated, a fascist government always has one class of citizens that is considered superior (good) to another (bad). It is possible to be both a republic and a fascist state. The preferred class (Investors) lives in a republic while the oppressed class (the rest of us) lives in a fascist state.

Welcome my son, welcome to The Machine.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Human Nature Supercedes All

An economic system is only as good as its ability to control the worse "angels" or human nature...greed and arrogance. Man, by nature, needs leaders and followers and this starts the imbalance...it's hoped that those leaders have the intelligence and compassion to spread the wealth and opportunity to the followers rather than exploit them.

I've never subscribed to the ideas of a socialist or communist utopia or a captialist one as our own instincts create those who are more aggressive and passive and equality is actually an unnatural situation. We need incentives...a dream...or at least the ability to believe we can achive all we can and that plays into why capitalism is and will remain the most viable system, but it must remain open-ended for it to flourish. It needs consumers and competition. It needs regulation to maintain credibility and it needs accountability. No matter what system one proposes, if you don't have those basic foundations you won't have a functional, productive society.

[cali]

11. well said. I'm in agreement with you.

I think that capitalism with strong regulation and nationalization of such things as healthcare, is the most viable system.

[Hannah Bell]

29. History of capitalism: every 5 years some small scandals & a small recession,

Every 30 years some moderate scandals & a moderate recession, every 60 years huge scandals & total meltdown.


This "regulation" you speak of....it's mythological.

[ShortnFiery]

35. It will take our economy falling off of the cliff, but America needs a new financial perspective.

Predatory Capitalism is now PROVEN to be an abject failure. :shrug:

[anaxarchos]

66. "mythological?"

It is actually scatilogical.

"Every servant must have a master", said Louis. "L'etat c'est moi."
"Free? How can you be, without me?"

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. IOW, european-style socialism.

Exactly what you said NOT to say.

[cali]

55. no, I said European socialism is Capitalism. And it is.

[mudesi]

60. Great. Go Work For Websters Dictionary

Why are you doing this? What is the point of this thread? It looks to me like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

[Odin2005]

98. I agree completely.

The desire to create Heaven on Earth produced has nothing but Hell on Earth. We should work on reducing suffering in the here and now, not sacrifice people for a utopian future that can never come.

[Deja Q]

111. Not just competition, it needs people working together for the common good as well:

I help a co-worker to learn a new skill or donate equipment for his/her benefit, for the benefit of the company. As he/she would help me in other ways.

That isn't socialism, communism, or capitalism. Just civility and being pro-society.



People need to evolve. Not devolve.

[vaberella]

9. Marxism. ^_^ n/t

[Odin2005]

99. Marxism is dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies

[Warren Stupidity]

10. democratic socialism in a mixed economy is not capitalism

it is not even essentially capitalism. The fundamental assumptions are different. Over here in the bankers paradise of unfettered capitalism the fundamental assumption is that government should not interfere with or regulate economic activity unless compelled to do so, and that individuals should take care of their own needs or suffer the consequences. Over there in the various social democracies, the fundamental assumption is that government should play an active role in regulating economic activity for the benefit of society, and that we should all care for one another through an institutional framework that provides for the basic human needs of all.

The system is democratic socialism.

[cali]

13. sure it is. virtually every economy in Europe wherein there's a degree of

socialism, is essentially regulated capitalism with a very few strands of nationalized industry/services.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. Your OP eliminates the obvious alternative

by declaring social democracy within a mixed economy as 'capitalism' and I am rejecting that premise. A society that starts with the premise that everyone is entitled to healthcare, to housing, to job security, to a decent old age pension, to education, and that government should and must actively regulate economic activity for the benefit of the people, might not be 'not capitalism' enough for your daily windmill-tilting exercise, but it would be a fine start as far as I am concerned.

[Taverner]

82. You don't know what Socialism is

Socialism can exist in varying degrees, but the main component of it is a CENTRAL PLANNED ECONOMY

There is not a country on Earth that still plans economies, with the exception of North Korea. China and Cuba don't even centrally plan their economies.

[Warren Stupidity]

93. "CENTRAL PLANNED ECONOMY"

that is one of many variants, and a failed one. The Marxiat-leninist system of state socialism was but one branch of socialist thought, and its various failed implementations have amply demonstrated why it doesn't work. Alternatives abound. Just because you declare them, as the OP does, to be not socialist or not socialist enough or just not a real Scotsman, doesn't make it so. As many here have pointed out, democratic regulation of a mixed private and public economy coupled with a broad system of social welfare, is a fine democratic socialist alternative to the crapitalist regime we live under here.

[ShortnFiery]

27. I'm personally beginning to take a shine to moving toward democratic socialism here.

What I do KNOW is that our present system of unbridled capitalism is NOT working.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. I'm with you, Cali.

Pure socialism ripens the conditions for fascism and dictatorship. I think socialism, despite its noble intentions, winds up being little more than Feudalism 2.0. Pure capitalism, to some extent, does the same. I think it has to be a hybrid system, taking the best parts of both.

Ultimately though, there is no perfect system because it relies on the actions and intentions of human beings, which are by definition imperfect.

[SidDithers]

23. Regulated capitalism is what is needed...

not the unfeterred capitalism we've seen most recently. Governments do have a role to play in the business of the nation.

Sid

[TechBear_Seattle]

33. I've been saying this for years

Regulated capitalism -- where laws exist to protect consumers, and these laws are enforced -- is the best economic system. The laissez-faire, do whatever the hell you want kind of capitalism of libertarian wet dreams is what brought us snake oil, mercury based cosmetics, food additives made with lead and cadmium, highly flamable children's clothing, land too toxic to use thanks to chemicals dumped there by industry, homes that collapse in a mild 4.0 earthquake killing everyone inside and a banking system that allows corporate CEOs to treat the national Treasury as their personal piggy bank.

[OwnedByFerrets]

24. Unregulated capitalism is the problem because of greed.

[ShortnFiery]

28. We, The People, can NOT regulate capitalism when the two entities who must sign off on all

such legislations are The Pentagon and Wall Street.

In essence, we have The FOXes (Corporations and the MI Complex) in charge of the Hen House (the USA's government)

[pnutbutr]

31. I thought

congress did that, not the pentagon and wall street.

There currently are tons of regulations concerning business today in the US, we just need to amend them and add where necessary to go along with the changing times.

[ShortnFiery]

32. Do you honestly believe that Congress is doing it's job?

Add to that the new batch of "blue dog" (corporations first) democrats and we have The Status Quo.

The M$M serves the ruling politicos of both parties by keeping everyone stirred up and at each other's throat with dumb-ass wedge issues.

Yes, we are given bread and circuses while the power elites continue to filter our money upward toward the filthy rich. :(

[pnutbutr]

37. wat r u

talking about?

congress legislates, not the pentagon or wall street. That's all I was saying.

[ShortnFiery]

40. Yes, but HOW does it operate? Not very well, since their approval ratings are bottomed out. nt

[pnutbutr]

41. I don't disagree with you there nt

[ShortnFiery]

43. Then please excuse my bluntness? Yes, I respect the legislative system but, it's functioning

for the past thirty years has been, IMO, abhorrent for anyone but those who already have a step up and are in the ranks of the middle class.

We essentially agree. :-)

[C......N......C]

47. K&R # 50

[snake in the grass]

30. I'm for StarTrekism.

Humanity no longer pursues wealth for wealth's sake, but rather dedicates itself to the pursuit of knowledge.

Sounds good to me.

[MellowDem]

34. You won't get too many straight responses...

We've never had a system that improved the quality of life for so many people so quickly before, so it's hard to come up with a system that would work as well as capitalism (or regulated capitalism) even with all its flaws. Of course, it could also depend on one's defintion of "quality of life". Personally for me, that's not accumulation of wealth, but capitalism does more than that. The many advances in technology that have saved and improved millions of lives likely would not have been possible without the system we had in place.

[xchrom]

36. the lack of real american anger pretty much assures

our capitalist system will be under regulated and healthcare will remain privatized.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[customerserviceguy]

39. I'm perfectly fine with it

We need to fix its excesses. Any governmental system developed by the mind of man works great without the excesses that inevitably crop up. Even monarchy works, when it's benevolent.

It's just way easier for a representative form of government to fix the excesses of capitalism than it is for a dictatorship to find and fix it's excesses.

[ShortnFiery]

42. If we are ever to be considered a somewhat benevolent Country again, we must care for our underclass

and disenfranchised. Many are troubled by the increasing number of homeless, especially Military Veterans.

[C......N......C]

45. Capitalism works. Look at the multiple residences, private jets,

mega mega yachts and on. It just has to be taxed and regulated to take care of the whole family. Take care of the workers and disabled and challenged. It makes money. I am a socialist but I know Capitalism is the way to get things done. It just has to be taxed and regulated. It worked fine for a long time after FDR. The power of money whittled away the social benefits of capitalism.

[The2ndWheel]

46. "what's ***the*** system that replaces capitalism?"

Why we attempt to force an ever increasing amount of people into a single way of living is one of the questions that drives me crazy. We all love diversity, we just don't want it to exist.

[superduperfarleft]

49. I love the smell of overinflated ego and attention whoring in the morning.

Ah, another day, another OP by cali berating everyone else for...something or the other.

I'm sorry you have to lower yourself in an attempt to talk some sense into all of us ignorant souls. We should all be truly grateful for your presence.

[kentuck]

51. Capitalism, as we know it, should be replaced.

Unlimited greed should be taxed. Wealth creation, without labor, should be taxed, i.e., paper wealth. Labor should not be taxed more than capital. Wealth should not be hidden in tax havens. Profits should not all go to the business owners or entrepreneurs, unless they do all the labor, also. There needs to be more fairness in the capitalist system. Capitalists should pay for the improvements in our infrastructure, roads, bridges, etc, because they profit the most from them.

[JHB]

53. Reductio ad Absurdum

reductio ad absurdum: Latin for "reduction to the absurd"

You do it here, and those say what you claim they say do it too. But that's the language the Right has reduced the discussion to. Don't give in to it. When they call you "socialist", shoot back: "damn stright! I'm an Eisnenhower Socialist" (you don't even have to believe that, but just saying it helps to bust up their over-simplistic framework).


There's more than one kind of capitalism (as you note). Just because (RW-defined) capitalism (i.e., ReaganBushonomics) is an abject failure doesn't mean we want Stalin and Mao. It just means (as I've said in my sig for years) we want the kind of economy that defeated Communism as it was in those nations, not the kind that spawned it.

[bigtree]

54. capitalism may well be dominate, but it's certainly not the only system

The only question we can reasonably contemplate without speculating outside of what's realistic is how can we accommodate other forms of commerce and trade to allow or enable them to survive and compete with capitalism___ that is, if we actually value those other means. You can't force some other choice, but you can work to make others more viable, considering the preeminence and permanence of capitalism.

[ogneopasno]

56. This is like a version of the game kids used to try to play with me in high school, which is "Name a

country where a version of socialism actually worked, and you can't say Sweden, or France, or..." I generally agree with what you post but the OP is a little disingenuous.

[mudesi]

57. European Style Socialism

Why can't I say that?

Why insist on giving it the name "capitalism"?

[Taverner]

63. Because it IS Capitalism

The correct term is Social Democracy. There is a huge social safety net, but at the same time the economy is powered by investment, renewal and growth. That's capitalism. It's Keynesian Capitalism rather than Adam Smith Capitalism but it is still Capitalism.

[hendo]

70. but, but its not capitalism if we don't want it to be

:sarcasm:

[Taverner]

73. LOL yeah lets call it FREEDOM ;)

Renaming things changes everything ya know :)

[Lilith Velkor]

80. Because it is good, therefore it must be capitalism

All good things emanate from having a ruling class control the means of production.

Didn't you know that?

[earth mom]

58. Replace it with good old fashioned commerce that doesn't allow the bloodsuckers&gamblers of Wall St

anywhere near any business in this country.

As far as I'm concerned Wall Street needs to be kicked to the curb after it's beaten to death. It's ruined too many people's lives and brought this country to it's knees.

After that, add some socialism to cover those who need it like the poor, mentally ill, disabled, sick and elderly.

There you have it- an almost perfect world. O8)

[Taverner]

61. We need to all move to an agrarian economy

All form communes and execute the disloyal.

While we're at it why don't we execute anyone over 12 years old, since they are tainted by Capitalism.

:P

[leftofthedial]

71. Oooh!

I like that "execute the disloyal" part!


:rofl:

[Taverner]

75. Basically that was the blueprint for "Democratic" Kampuchea and The Great Leap Forward

Although they didn't exactly "form" communes, they were sent to them at the barrel of a gun

[leftofthedial]

77. Give me one example of that approach failing

and you can't use Kampuchea or Jonestown.

:rofl:

[Taverner]

79. Hmmmm, Great Leap Forward in China, Stalin's Five Year Plan...

Jonestown actually worked pretty well until the Kool Aid came out :P

[leftofthedial]

84. Those are all Kool Aid examples,

so they don't count. This thread is all about arbitrary definitions and arbitrary exclusions, leaving MY version of "reality" as the only possible solution to a problem I invented specifically for this thread don't you know.


Does this lint make my navel look fat?

[Taverner]

86. Depends, is t black lint? Then its slimming...

[anigbrowl]

120. Fail.

[leftofthedial]

124. the only thing that failed is your (complete lack of a) sense of humor.

[anigbrowl]

119. Sure. Here's a list.

Kampuchea (why can't we use it? It's a fine example).
Rwanda.
Cultural revolution under Mao.
The French revolution. Don't think so? ask Robespierre.
The USSR post Trotsky - nice one, Stalin.

I could go on, and on.

[leftofthedial]

123. what if someone showed up in the middle of a joke

and started beating people they don't know over the head with a history textbook?

...and you DO go on and on.

[anigbrowl]

127. Don't quit your day job.

[anigbrowl]

118. Well put.

[No.23]

62. Let's learn from the pendulum effect.

Heavy handed swings to one end... will only result in an equal swing to the other end... in time.

The laws of physics are related to the laws of economics.

[JHB]

74. The pendulum doesn't swing if it's pushed -- and only from one side.

Over the last 30 years it's been pushed past horizontal by the forces pushing for deregulation and "free" markets. It's long past time for a swing in the other direction, but it's still being pushed in the wrong direction.

That situation demands pushing back.

[kerrywins]

64. How About Replacing Our Predatory Capitalism With Freedom?

Just a thought.

[Taverner]

65. Never heard of an Economic Model called "Freedom"

[kerrywins]

68. Freedom is Pretty Unknown to Most Folks

Its a radical idea that allows people to sell and buy goods without government intervening with forced protectionism and subsidies and corporate welfare.

[Taverner]

78. You just described Libertarian Capitalism

Without the Ayn Rand Hero-Worship

[kerrywins]

83. Do You Mind Telling Me How That's Not Freedom?

?

[Taverner]

85. I'm not, but not calling it Capitalism is false

And there is no economic model called "Freedom"

Like Obama once said, you can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig

[kerrywins]

87. The Capitalism We Have Now Is Far From Freedom

.

[Taverner]

88. Yes, but you miss my point. Freedom is a vague, abstract term that in the end means nothing

Freedom for Wall Street execs is trading free of regulation

Freedom for me is being able to light up a joint at 5pm

Freedom for a Wahabbist Muslim is living under Sharia Law

Freedom is an abstract meaning, not an economic system

[kerrywins]

89. It Means Something When Its Been Taken Away

.

[Taverner]

90. This makes about as much sense as "Freedom isn't free"

:eyes:

[kerrywins]

91. Let Me Explain in More Detail

"Cartels are created by legislation which is defended in the name the public interest. Economists generally are suspicious of claims that invoke the public interest. All modern economic theory, beginning with Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations (1776), begins with this presupposition: "Individuals act in their self-interest, however each individual defines his self-interest." Smith was hostile to business cartels. He had nothing good to say about such associations.

Special-interest business groups organize to pressure the government to intervene into market pricing, so that existing businesses are favored at the expense of those kept out by government-created barriers to entry. They show how this restricts the freedom of new producers to offer consumers better deals. It also restricts existing producers from offering discounts or other arrangements to consumers."

[hendo]

96. then I take it you would know that Smith would not approve of the current state of global capitalism

any more than Marx would approve of the examples of communism in action.

Greed and human self-interest will ruin any system if it is allowed to do so. However, the only way to take greed and self-interest out of the mix is to start taking away freedoms.

[kerrywins]

113. "start taking away freedoms"

I'm sorry you feel that way.

This wouldn't be a start. They have been taking them away for a good while now.

[hendo]

122. you missed the point

no economic system can truely be free because greed will intervene.

[kerrywins]

128. Throughout History, Government is the enemy of freedom

When people ask for their freedoms to be taken away, they will be.

Ask and you shall receive.

I wish we would start standing up to tyranny, not inviting it.

[hendo]

132. so, you are for predatory capitalism?

anarchy won't be as free as you might think.

[pnutbutr]

102. hahaha

you just advocated a true free market system. Good show anti-capitalist. :rofl:

[HughBeaumont]

72. I wished we actually PRACTICED capitalism.

At least the fair, Keynesian kind. The Friedmanist model we're stuck with now is a failure beyond words. You know, unless you were already well monied to begin with. Then it works out just fine.

All I'm saying is to a Keynesian setting, add two things and reform a third thing we already have. Then it'd be ideal.

How would we pay for it? Here's a clue:

STOP BLOWING UP THE MIDDLE EAST and STOP GIVING MONEY TO THE WEALTHY for starters.

[kerrywins]

76. As Long As Our Government Can Counterfeit Money

They Can Pay for unjust wars and military bases all over the world.

[pnutbutr]

103. do you support

a commodity backed monetary system?

[kerrywins]

114. I support competing currencies.

The government should not force a monopoly money supply. Especially a fiat one that they can counterfeit.

[joshcryer]

109. Keynes said that "In the end, we are all dead."

I tend to agree with him with regards to the capitalist / monetary obsession.

[Romulox]

81. Trillions of taxpayers $$$ to private equity isn't "capitalism". nt

[Jennicut]

92. I like the mix of capitalism with socialism. What is really wrong with that? The US has the worst

system with the free market capitalism that has run rampant for years. The problem here is the Rethugs and many Dems are so afraid of the govt. running anything. But just look at recent polls, Americans trust the govt. more then they trust the CEOS of big corps.

[pnutbutr]

101. free market?

is a myth like pure socialism. The US is currently using a mixed system that you seem to like, it's just out of balance at the moment and needs some adjustment.

[Jennicut]

105. Actually the socialism is being used for the banks not us

so in a way you are correct. It needs a shift back to us.

[killbotfactory]

94. A federation of worker and community owned industries

A government which first and foremost guarantees the means of life to every citizen, and the opportunity for education to all.

A system of laws and regulation based on preventing provable harm between individuals or groups, rather than allowing laws to be made by whim of a majority or grandstanding politicians.

Businesses democratically run by the workers and the communities effected by their operation. People in management positions would be put their by, and work to serve, the employees.

No more capitalists or bureaucrats.

[guitar man]

95. I do necessarily think it's the system

I don't think the system is as much at fault as is our culture these days. "I, me , mine, I want it all and I want it NOW!!! Waaaaahhh, what about me??? Fuck those poor people, they're all lazy losers". And so no and so forth.

Greed, hubris,egomania, total lack of compassion and all other sorts of regressive bugfuckery can find a way to thrive under just about any system. IMO, if we want real reform, we have to reform the way we think and act in this country.

The first thing we need to do is lose the tolerance for the Robber Barrons and let them know in no uncertain terms that Plutocracy 2.0 is dead and Reagan is still rotting in his grave.We need to send a loud and clear message to our govt. continually that they work for us, all of us, not just the upper few percent and that we won't tolerate this un-level playing field anymore.

Then, whatever the system of reforms born from the movement is called is unimportant, as long as it works....for everyone


just my .02

[Vidar]

97. It has to be heavily regulated to work.

[wuushew]

100. Anarcho-syndicalism

[Warren DeMontague]

104. Nothing. Just put Bozo on the dollar bill and Houdini on the Ten.

So people will be reminded that, no matter WHAT the system, it's mostly a lot of tomfoolery and hocus-pocus.

[arcadian]

106. agrarianism

[Runcible Spoon]

107. Ahhh, Cali. How I love your threads.

I don't even have to read your name on the OP-I just count the number of deleted subthreads. It is your signature, kinda like that nasty anal secretion hyenas smear all over their territory...yes, hyena butter :rofl:

[Orwellian_Ghost]

121. OMG!

Splutter...

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

108. Anarcho-technocracy.

The fundamental problems with capitalism are that it creates and maintains scarcity in an environment (nature) which has no such thing, especially for beings which have intelligence and are able to form their own environment around themselves.

A society that fully recycles its waste is the enevitable outcome, there's simply no debating it. Water can't be allowed to evaporate right into the sky (geoagriculture is depleating the great midwest aquifer by shocking amounts; the bread basket of the world will go dry eventually), so we'll grow food in giant vertical farms, which recycle wastewater (sewage, which gets put into streams and goes into the oceans). Once you have that then it becomes difficult to debate having to "pay for" food because your waste is the only "payment" necessary to grow it, and vertical farms are easily automated.

I could go on, but the basic point is that technology along with no government is the best solution to the problems humanity faces. Hinging your beliefs on sentimental and authoritarian systems is a no win.

[backscatter712]

110. European style social democracy, yes, with Regulated Capitalism (TM)

Where have I ever said "CAPITALISM IS EEEEEVIL!!! LONG LIVE GLOЯIOUS PЯOLЗTAЯIAT ЯEVOLUTION, COMЯADES!!!"?

I hold the philosophy that in order to have a truly free market (not a GOP Free Market®) it has to be a fair market, with rules in place to keep the predators and fraudsters in check.

[Mike 03]

112. Sadly, of late, it's extremely difficult to make a post as sensible as yours and receive many

respectful, logical or thoughtful replies.

But I admire your tenacity, as always.

I think so much would be cleared up if people would trouble themselves to go to CSPAN and at least watch these hearings into the causes of this disaster and listen to the testimony with their own ears.

It's all there.

[Canuckistanian]

115. Strawman. I don't see many people wanting to ABOLISH capitalism

All we want is More TRANSPARENCY. More ACCOUNTABILITY. And more REGULATION of vague "financial instruments".

I like the financial system of the 50s and 60s.

People bought SHARES in ventures that looked like good ideas. They ACCEPTED that those investments were legally protected from financial vultures and con men. They TRUSTED the Federal Government to actively INVESTIGATE, EXPOSE and PROSECUTE criminals that abused that priviledge and SET GOOD LAWS to PROMOTE the concept of ethical investing.

Tell me, is that too much to ask??

[Mike 03]

116. I cannot fucking believe that only ONE person rec'd this thread.

It scares the shit out of me that nobody around here other than a few are thinking anymore.

[Mike 03]

117. Kick and read this and think about it, please. NT

[omega minimo]

125. Where does regulation fit into your worldview, cali? Your OP is flawed.

[cali]

129. you're right. I absolutely support strong regulation with real teeth to it.

[omega minimo]

130. You're right. Your OP suggested that as I reread it.

:thumbsup: