The police/SWAT response at Binghamton was slow like Columbine

[RamboLiberal]

The shootings were over in about 3 minutes. The gunman was dead. But apparently it took 3 hours for the cops to go in. Wonder how many died waiting? After Columbine many SWAT teams trained to go in more quickly. Go to the active shooter. I think response in this case was too damn slow - at least from what I've read tonight.

The killing began around 10:30 a.m. and was over in minutes, witnesses said, but the ordeal lasted up to three hours for those trapped inside the American Civic Association as heavily armed police officers, sheriff’s deputies and state troopers threw up a cordon of firepower outside and waited in a silence of uncertainty.

Finally, officers who had not fired a shot closed in and found a sprawl of bodies in a classroom, 37 terrified survivors cowering in closets and a boiler room and, in an office, the dead gunman, identified as Jiverly Wong, 42, a Vietnamese immigrant who lived in nearby Johnson City.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/nyregion/04hostage.html?hp

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1. you post criticism? should the police have rushed in guns a blazing?

hell, yes, response can be slow. if you were not there and in charge of analyzing the situation and directing the response, you might want to step back for a minute and consider what you would do in that situation.

or knee-jerk and criticize as a "20/20 hindsight arm-chair" keyboard comando.

your choice...

[RamboLiberal]

4. Most SWAT teams after Columbine reevaluated and decided

they needed to go in and engage an active shooter. I wouldn't have any criticism if they go in and proceed slowly clearing a building. I've actually was in a group of shooters who had demonstrated to us by a federal agent how they clear a building.

There's no sounds of gunfire coming from the facility but this group of police sat outside for nearly 3 hours!

The SWAT teams at Columbine for roundly criticized for this tactic. They cost the life in all probability in that incident of at least that one teacher who died in a classroom while students frantically tried to attend to him, even holding a sign in a window that 1 person was dying.

At Virginia Tech the police broke through the chains Cho put on the door and went in fairly quickly.

Yeah, I think in this case the response of the police, especially SWAT needs to be examined and if they cost any of the victims inside their life. Trauma medicine is taught the golden hour to save a victim.

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5. ok. cool. but there are just as many that would criticize if the police went in immediately...

and any life was lost.

its a no-win situation...

[RamboLiberal]

7. No - this group of police did not follow what most police agencies

do now in active shooter situations. They went back to Columbine mode. Police trainers who have studied these mass killings know that most of the time its one shooter and 90% of the time the shooter commits suicide. Tell me the last spree killing that was a hostage situation? All the spree killings I can think of in the last few years none held hostages, most of the killings occured in less than 15 minutes, most of the perpetrators committed suicide or were shot by police and/or captured. Time is of the essence. Most police agencies now tell their officers not to wait for SWAT, but go in to the building, in a group if possible. They train them in building clearing tactics much like SWAT. They build simulator situations like this. They try to get a school building with some volunteers to play victims and practice this.

Most parents at Columbine who lost children are probably still angry at police response that day.

The police response that day still provokes outrage. As students poured out of the school, police did not move in. Teacher Patti Nielson made a frantic 911 call.

Here is her conversation with the police dispatcher:
Nielson: "He turned the gun straight at us and shot. And my God, the window went out. And the kid standing there with us, I think, I, he got hit."

Dispatcher: "Ok, OK. We've got help on the way, madam."

Lauren Townsend’s step-father, Bruce Beck asks, "Why did the 911 operator tell Patty Nielson to keep the kids down, help is on the way, when they knew they weren't going to send any policemen into the building?"

Both Kelly Fleming and Lauren Townsend were killed in the library, where students had fled to hide under the desks.

Dawn Anna says, “Our Lauren was told the police were coming.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/20/earlyshow/main612726.shtml

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8. so what are you saying? people died today because of the police response?

i get that is your theory. but do you have some proof to back that up?

hard facts? or are you just criticizing the police action today on general principle.

and stop with the columbine quotes. that does not apply to today.

aside from your problem with columbine, what do you have to contribute to the events of today?

[olegramps]

14. How dare you criticize those brave police officers!

That is just plain un-American. It is as bad as those un-American critics of the Bush administration for slaughtering tens of thousands in Iraq. Every criticism of the police, military and Republicans is nothing but propaganda by scumbag liberals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. It is a no win situation

and as you point out EACH TACTICAL situation is unique

But the lessons learned from Columbine is that you need to actually go in, in tactical clearing operations, fairly fast.

This does not mean...guns a-blazing... in fact, when they go well you will hear no shots... or two to three shots... usually when the team lead engages the target...

Also ... here is a note from having worked along these teams...

Once a hostage is dead... all are dead... if we get any out alive... that's gravy

Cold... perhaps... tactical reality...

And if I ever find myself a hostage... I know I'm dead, until the team comes in... tactical reality.

[Goatman1]

12. Yes. they should have.

The Active Shooter response is pretty much the same now in all 50 states. The first 3 to 5 police on scene go in and 'remove' the threat. The only time police set up a perimeter is when a barricaded subject/hostage situation exists. It is possible they didn't categorize the situation right --it was obviously a chaotic scene. Perhaps some of the dead or dying could have been saved, however. Monday morning quarterbacking is exactly what is going to happen; and it doesn't look good for both the local cops or the troopers when these 911 tapes are reviewed. Regretably cops on the east coast are the least trained in active shooter, they are just now starting training that west coast agencies have been doing for years.

[amerikat]

2. The cop at the nursing home shooting went in alone

as I recall. He didn't wait for backup or the swat team to arrive.

edit for link.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h91ZbQTpB1bqDYrWJgMJlTE07KDwD97A0BMO2

[Truthiness Inspector]

11. Like someone else said, don't confuse the OP

The officer who went into the nursing home knew he was alone, and if he didn't do it, no one else could. He put it all on the line.

On the other hand "RAMBO"Liberal thinks the SWAT team, once present, should have piled in guns-blazing as if that always solves everything, forgetting that 2 Oakland SWAT officers were just killed less than 2 weeks ago trying to apprehend the cop-killer. They weren't idiots, they were highly trained guys dealing with a nothing-to-lose piece of shit.

People need to stop playing Monday-morning quarterback on this stuff. Bottom line is that if you weren't there, you have no fucking idea (meaning not one drop of an idea) of all the variables/considerations in play in any given situation. To pretend you do shows only one thing: abject ignorance and zero experience.

[Orrex]

3. Around 6:00pm ET on NPR

I heard that police suspected that there might be a second gunman in the building and were therefore proceeding with extreme caution.

That's lovely, of course, but if they knew were at least some of the civilians were trapped, you'd think that they'd have made a special effort to get to them and get them to safety?

I admit that this is a gut reaction, and I certainly have no expertise in the logistics of such a nightmarish situation, so take this all with a pound or two of salt.

[RamboLiberal]

6. This is how a lot of police agencies & campus police have trained

since Columbine.

Columbine 04/20/99, Utah Mall Shooting 02/07, Virginia Tech Massacre 04/16/07. These are all active shooter situations where armed subject(s) enter a public place to murder as many people as possible. These incidents have become more common in our society and it is the Patrol Officer who will be first on scene and may have to confront heavily armed suspect(s). Hopefully your agency has developed training and procedures for responding to active shooter situations. These situations are extremely dangerous for the responding Officer(s) because by the time we arrive, the scene is chaotic and information is usually limited and basic.

Obviously you will want to adhere to your department’s procedures if you find yourself responding to one of these situations during your career. The importance of a fast and rapid response by Officers cannot be stressed enough when talking about an active shooter situation. Officers must respond rapidly and and move to eliminate the threat immediately and without hesitation. We have to remember that as we are responding to one of these situations people are being killed and our quick response and action could save many lives.

Even if the suspect(s) commit suicide before we arrive, our rapid response into the shooting scene will allow us to render life-saving first aid and allow for the deployment of more highly trained medical first responders to treat the wounded. These are not situations where we setup a perimeter and wait for the Swat Team. Swat will be used if we can contain the active shooter(s) in a specific location where they are trapped or if hostages are taken.

The ideal situation would be for 2-4 Officers to arrive at the scene and then form a fire-team to deploy into the active shooter area.A fire-team is simply a group of Officers working together as a single unit to complete a required task. It makes sense that 2-4 Officers working together will be more capable of dealing with an active shooter than a single Officer. A 4 Officer fire-team is ideal because the 3rd Officer will protect the rear as your team moves around the shooting scene.

If I was the first Officer on the scene of an active shooter I would wait for the next Officer or Officers to arrive before deploying into the shooting scene. A team needs a leader so it would make sense for the most experienced Officer or highest ranking Officer to be the leader. If a member of your team happens to be a Swat or Tactical Officer then he becomes the leader for obvious reasons. Because we are in rapid-response mode we want to form up quickly and then deploy into the shooting scene.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Active-Shooter-Response-For-Police&id=646347

These types of cases have become so commonplace that law enforcement professionals coined the phrase "active shooter." This term is used to describe an armed individual who has used deadly force on others and continues to do so while having unrestricted access to additional victims. The list of cities struck by the active shooter phenomenon is long and includes places like Littleton and Bailey, Colorado; Jonesboro, Arkansas; Red Lake, Minnesota; San Diego, California; and Barts Township, Pennsylvania. Reviewing the list of names, it quickly becomes clear that be it a pastoral village or sprawling metropolis, no community is immune to an active shooter massacre.

Because these dangerous and unpredictable situations require swift and immediate law enforcement action, authorities have fashioned a response strategy where first responders march to the sound of gunshots to neutralize the threat. The modified response tactic has prompted many of the nation's police agencies to engage officers in ultra-realistic training regimes aimed at eliminating and minimizing casualties by preparing patrol officers to go in where they typically haven't gone before. "Traditionally we've always put officer safety first," says Anthony Callisto, Syracuse (New York) University chief of public safety. "But this kind of training really puts victim safety first. We are putting officers in harm's way to enter an active shooting situation."

Active shooter response training originated after Colorado's Columbine High School attack, where 13 people lost their lives and 24 were injured. In the massacre's aftermath, responding agencies teamed with the Los Angeles Police Department's SWAT team and the National Tactical Officers Association (NTOA) to develop an active shooter protocol termed Immediate Action Rapid Deployment or IARD.

This training places emphasis on the fact that officers must charge into a situation — even if it means putting their own lives at stake. As Lt. Patrick Martin of the Greenfield (Wisconsin) Police Department points out, "You've got to do something or people are going to die."

http://articles.directorym.net/MARCHING_TO_THE_SOUND_OF_GUNSHOTS_Boston_MA-r909374-Boston_MA.html

[Historic NY]

9. Police were on the scene in 2 minutes of the 911 call

there were no reports of further shots upon the poice arrival. The rest of those killed were shot in the classroom. Four people were critically wounded.

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10. don't confuse the op with facts. op has "documented procedures" that must be followed in all cases.

regardless of the actual situation occurring before the eyes of the local law enforcement officers.

the op knows. the op googled it...

[Berry Cool]

13. Yeah. For some people it's easy to sit back, relax and pretend they know everything

and can armchair-quarterback everything other people do in life from the comfort of their keyboards.

Others realize life is more complicated than that.

[jeburke242]

15. I agree -- response was lame

This should be scrutinized, as was Columbine.

I have posted about it here:

http://thepurplecenter.blogspot.com/

[NashVegas]

17. If The Killing Was Over In 3, Cops Couldn't Have Done Anything

At 5.

Stuff like this happens. Yelling at police for not acting sooner just delays mourning, IMO.

[Dr. Benway]

18. Another Moderate Clairvoyant

"If The Killing Was Over In 3, Cops Couldn't Have Done Anything

"At 5.

"Stuff like this happens. Yelling at police for not acting sooner just delays mourning, IMO."

You know from the comfort of your keyboard how many people didn't die immediately but succumbed during the hours that the police sat outside and did nothing? You must truly be psychic. Please tell me what the S&P 500 will do over the next six months. I need to know.

[Taitertots]

19. When seconds matter, the cops will be there in hours n/t