My daughter *was* going to buy a new car.. Until today.. An example of trickle down..

[Fumesucker]

My grown daughter has been researching new cars for a while now, her old one is a 97 and getting a bit long in the tooth.

Today she and my son in law unequivocally decided against a new car for her. The reason? My son in law is an aircraft mechanic at Lockheed and works on the F22, today's announcement means there is an excellent chance his good paying union job will be history quite soon.

I'm not posting this to debate the pros and cons of the F22 or any other weapons systems, this is actually a bit of a moral dilemma for me as someone with pretensions of liberalism.

Just showing an example of how eliminating one good paying American job leads to the elimination of another and another and another.

Do you blame a family the majority of whose income is possibly going away soon for tightening the belt at the expense of other American workers?

[terisan]

1. No you are being wise. The bank bailouts may well bankrupt the US.An additional worry is

that in our weakened economic state, it is (I believe) more likely that a natural disaster or a man-mane disaster will occur that will send us reeling.

[Mojorabbit]

17. That is my gut feeling too

and I have no idea why. I am thinking natural disaster.

[Fumesucker]

20. I don't think there is any "may" about it..

Between two never ending wars on the other side of the world and the goddamn banks there isn't going to be anything left for us or our kids or grandkids.

If I wasn't emotionally burned out from the last eight years I'd be highly upset.

[terisan]

22. You need that R and R break they used to give soldiers in Vietman before sending them back to fight

in Hell.

[SoCalDem]

2. This kind of thing will be with us for a while

good luck to both of them.. maybe they can find a carmax near them, and find a good used car for a good price:)

[Fumesucker]

10. They have gone into complete spend-as-little-as-possible mode..

Thanks for the good wishes..

They really have just gotten back on their feet financially after having three kids in a row, buying a home on significant property and my daughter spending five years as a stay at home mom. I started watching my grandkids last summer which allowed my daughter to go back to work and actually keep some of her paycheck instead of spending the majority of it on child care for three kids.

They were hoping to have everything but the mortgage and a new car paid off by the end of this year, now they have decided to concentrate like a laser beam on paying down everything possible and saving as much as possible on top of that. I know this is exactly the wrong direction for them to take as far as the general economy goes but it is really the only rational course for them to pursue IMO. I'm behind them completely in this.

Next year all the kids will be in full day school which will free my time to go out generate some supplemental income.

We are battening down the hatches and rigging for heavy financial weather.

[SoCalDem]

29. That's the safest way to live these days.. as debt free as possible

you just never know what may happen, and the worst that can happen is to lose a job AND owe on stuff..:(

[hamsterjill]

67. "We are battening down the hatches and rigging for heavy financial weather."

Wise counsel. Aren't we all!!!

[Salviati]

3. Of course one needs to live within ones means...

So there is no blame on anyone who needs to cut back spending due to a loss of income, to do otherwise is absurd.

On the other front, as someone who belives very strongly that the military budget is in need of severe cuts, the consequences of these cuts are also on my mind. It just goes to show you that there are no easy decisions. Perhaps we can retool and retrain some of the "defense" infrastructure and workers into developing the green economy. I believe that we need to divert a large percentage of the dollars we currently spend on the military, but to simply cut them off will hurt a lot of families like your daughter and son in law...

[peace13]

4. I hear what you are saying.

My son, 24, is losing his housing due to a roommate getting married. He has money for a down payment from his grandmother's estate. We thought, what a great time to take advantage of the fist time home buyer gift(as my right wing sister puts it) We looked through several houses and then sat down and discussed how bad it would be if he lost his job after the purchase. Long story short, he decided to sit out a while longer. I don't know how we are going to jump start this economy. Time will tell.

[xchrom]

5. we haven't felt all the multipiers from

our huge unempolyment and underemployment numbers yet.

it's very worrisome

[TahitiNut]

6. I made a HUGH discovery some years ago. I'm SIRIUS!!1!

It's cheaper to put a new engine or transmission in a paid-off car than buy a new one!

OMG!! :eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

12. Wasn't that way when you were young though was it?

When I was young I had to have the newest and shiniest car I could get as often as I could afford one.

With age that all changed. Now I just want something that gets me from point A to point B and thats enough.

Don

[TahitiNut]

23. I had to give up my Valiant (convertible) when I was drafted.

My Cutlass was a good car but I screwed up and ordered a (my first NEW! car) Camaro Rally Sport on the 'B-plan' when I was at Chevy ... and it rusted through above the windshield. (Dripped on my lap.) So I bought a Volvo 244 DL --- a REALLY bad choice. A lemon that got 8-12mpg. Then I got a VW Rabbit - another BAD choice. Faulty gasket - blew oil and froze the block. Then I got a Plymouth Voyager -- and got tired of people thinking I was married with kids. It was an underpowered 4-cylinder.

THAT'S when I got my 1990 red Chrysler LeBaron pervertible. It's an engineering nightmare but the design is PERFECT. I've replaced the transmission twice and the engine (half-block) once. It only has 108,000 miles on it. I still love it.

There's no question, though. RELIABLE is the best 'feature.'

[MindPilot]

34. Two trannnys and a short block in 100k?

And you call that "reliable"?

Hey I got a car made in India for only two thousand bucks that's got "gullible" "TahitiNut" written all over it.

Just sign here!

[TahitiNut]

40. No, I DON'T call it reliable. It does, however, make me appreciate 'reliable.'

As I've said, even in the TWENTY years I've owned it, it's cheaper than buying new. The design is perfect - FOR ME. The engineering, as I've said, is horrible. The short block and two trannie replacements were under warranty.

In that short history above, 'reliable' was demonstrated by the Valiant, Cutlass, and Voyager. The lemons were the Volvo, the VW, and the LeBaron (Mitsubishi engine and transmission). In MY experience, over 40 years, the foreign cars were the WORST.

[MindPilot]

43. Gotcha. Sorry, I misunderstood.

When I was 12, my dad bought a new 1966 Dodge van. I learned to drive in it and my son learned to drive in it. At 300,000 miles it finally tossed a rod -- still had the orginal shocks.

[bvar22]

69. Is that John Voit's old car?

You might be able to tell from the bite marks on the pencil in the glove compartment.

[TahitiNut]

71. His was a 1989 model.

... and I never had a nosebleed while driving it.

[Fumesucker]

13. The engine and transmission are in pretty decent shape..

But the electrical system is becoming unreliable.

We have long commutes around here if you want to live in affordable housing and a couple of breakdowns on the way to work can lose you a job if you have an unsympathetic employer or supervisor. That is pretty much the position my daughter is in, her immediate supervisor is one of those incompetent jerks that there was a thread about earlier today.

[customerserviceguy]

25. Been there, done that

And when you put in a new transmission, then the engine goes out...

Best thing to do is buy a car with a reputation for being long-lasting, then don't scrimp on maintaining it.

[MADem]

26. I've been fixing my car for twenty some odd years.

It's great on gas, I can fit a lot of stuff in it (hatchback) and the insurance is cheap.

Can't beat it.

[kcass1954]

27. We had the engine in our F150 rebuilt last summer.

Truck has over 160,000 miles on it and the transmission is in good shape. (Oops - I shouldn't say that out loud, eh?) Our mechanic couldn't do it, but recommended somebody in Hialeah. I got nervous about that, cuz everybody knows somebody in Hialeah who can rebuild an engine. Mr. kcass went down to check them out - some Cuban guy who speaks English with up-to-date licenses on the wall and no BBB complaints.

Two weeks and $2200 later, the truck runs better than when we bought it at 45,000 miles.


edited b/c even spell-check can't fix my goofy mistakes.

[Fire1]

37. You just brought back memories. There was a time when folks

used to say it was cheaper to buy a new car than replacing the engine. Shows you how times and 'prices' have changed.

[TahitiNut]

41. I remember that time ... and it was when folks did a lot of their own maintenance.

When I was growing up, folks did their own tune-ups about half the time and their own oil changes about 80% of the time. Even so, 4-5 years was about the maximum time one would keep the same car, whether bought new or used. The 'affluent' got a new car each year. The 'almost affluent' got a new car every 2 years. Then there were the rest of us.

[Fire1]

44. So true. I remember that my mother only had one 'new' car

in her entire life time.

[TahitiNut]

45. Same for my mother. It's a 1977 Monte Carlo. She still has it, even though she can't drive anymore.

Thirty-two years old, single owner, only 47,000 miles on it. :rofl:

[Fire1]

47. You should drive that in the Woodward Dream Cruise! lol.

[TahitiNut]

48. We did ... 2 years ago. It's nothing compared to MOST of the cars, though. (Don't tell my mother.)

We did the Berkley Classic Car cruise along the center of 12 Mile Road through downtown Berkley ... from the cemetery at Woodward to one block short of Greenfield ... about three miles ... all at idle speed with 1-2 car lengths separation. There were people lined up all along 12 Mile Road, 3-4 deep. More people than the entire population of Berkley itself, I think. We were one of the first 10-20 cars. By the time I looped back to Woodward and the cemetery, the cars were STILL leaving the cemetery at the end of the line and going up 12 Mile Road!! It was a kick. Arriving early to line up, we got to wander around and look at the cars up close and personal. AMAZING. Engine blocks and underbodies as clean as a hospital operating room. Cars prettier than any kit ... and in more perfect condition, too. Afterwards, and the next day, we cruised Woodward just enjoying the party atmosphere.

When I was in high school in the late 50s, I was one of the "cruisers" ... Thursday night was looking for dates for Friday/Saturday - groups of guys and groups of girls. From the Totem Pole to Ted's Drive-In. Fun times. Friday and Saturday nights were date nights ... half the cars were couples. There wasn't that much dragging ... just the occasional peel-out at the stop lights. The drags went out on Adams and Opdyke, as I recall.

Nostalgia. It ain't what it used to be. :dunce:

[Fire1]

49. Good clean fun and good times had by all. Those were the

days.:P

[endarkenment]

53. YOUR INCOMPENT!

I keep having this same argument in my house. I view a 1,000 repair as MINOR compared to a 20,000+ sticker. My desire for new cars ended a long time ago.

[Trajan]

7. I regret that I had mistaken Lockheed in Georgia as 'non union' ...

in another thread .... I was wrong ....

Other than that: I just crossed into my 30th year in aerospace, having worked primarily for McDonnell Douglas and Rockwell International, which were both swallowed by Boeing in the 90's ....

I can unequivocally state that aerospace workers have to be aware that their jobs are tenuous and can disappear in a mere moment, and that nearly everyone who gets laid off are sad and regretful ...

More than that: They dont buy any goods or services that might place them in greater debt ... because that would be a mistake ....

I have travelled the country in search of suitable work, and now live in a place where I have no previous history ... no family (except my kids) ... no continuous thread of existence that allows me to ask "remember when ?" ..... seems like a little thing, but I am learning it is not ....

In any case: That is my lot in life as an aerospace worker .... Feast or famine ....

Ask those who worked on many defunct product lines, and you will find similar stories ....

I am sorry about your daughter ... I hope she finds something suitable ...

[Fumesucker]

18. Thanks for the good wishes..

She's just going to keep on driving the old one until the wheels fall off now..

I worked in the oil patch for a while and have done some construction in the past, both of those are similar to aerospace in that it's feast or famine with little in between.

I owned my own business for quite a while, folded that last year, things never really recovered after 9/11 and I was fighting a losing battle. Eventually I just pulled my camper onto my kid's property and started watching my grandkids while my daughter went back to work..

It's a simple life and I have to admit I'm not missing the damn rat race at all.

[Uzybone]

8. Shows you how hard it will be to change the military-industrial complex

when liberals are complaining about the jobs that will be lost when we get rid of useless weapons.

[Demobrat]

9. Good people will be hurt when we get rid of useless weapons.

Good people will be hurt when we cut the for-profit insurance companies out of the health care mix. Good people will be hurt if we don't save the auto companies. And on, and on and on. And talking about it, and helping one another to deal with it, is not complaining. It is facing reality. The reality that we can't all work for non-profits - as much as we would like to.

[Uzybone]

11. Oh I agree, but it shows how hard change will be

I point it out because lost of people seem to expect hard changes to come about overnight.

[Fumesucker]

15. The trouble is that weapons systems are among the last major things

Still made in the USA..

We have exported so much of our other manufacturing that there aren't that many jobs in the sort of skilled trades my son in law is in left.

As an interesting aside, my brother just got a job building movie sets, he's fifty four now and his construction business that he's owned for almost thirty years has slowed down so much that he has gone back to work for someone else. He's happy to get the work, things were looking pretty bleak for him three months ago.

[MadMaddie]

21. You are right

I still believe we have to have manufacturing in this country for the US to survive. Outsourcing every manufacturing company and job is not in the interest of US Security. We have let corporations ruin this country...and we are going to pay dearly for it.

[rucky]

14. How come trickle-down only works when times are bad?

[stillcool]

16. because you don't know what you've got..

until it's gone.

[rucky]

57. I think you're the first person ever to use Cinderella lyrics to explain economic theory.

:yourock:

[Fumesucker]

19. Because shit rolls downhill..

While the scum rises to the top..

Crude, but in my experience it's pretty accurate.

[pnutbutr]

76. It's a temporary patch

It is meant to put more money in the hands of the people to encourage them to spend which does happen. The problem is, those who set the policy to use trickle down have never figured out that it is not sustainable for more than a couple years and always try to make it permanent or expand it even more after the results start to fade.

[trixie]

24. It's not the tightening of the family's budget but a choice

that those who do spend make. You can't blame a person who can't afford a new car or ordinarily doesn't believe in a new car. Those that do purchase and then purchase foreign are the problem.

Now, can a Detroiter explain about the advantages of a new car?
I buy a new car every 2 or 3 years. With my payment and my 2 oil changes a year (yes, now the cars only need an oil change every 6,000 miles) I pay $2,006 a year. For that money I have a new, reliable car. I have not opened a hood of a car in 16 years. I don't buy tires, I don't have to do any engine work etc. Add up what you pay for car repair, oil changes, tires etc and you might be surprised that a new car can actually be cheaper.

[Fumesucker]

28. Define "foreign"....

You have to do research nowadays to find out where the car you buy was made and it's not always all that straightforward even then.

And when you are trading in a twelve year old car for a new one big enough to ride a family of five plus maybe another adult or two you're going to pay more than $167 a month.

The point was that a family that was in pretty good financial shape yesterday is now cutting expenses to the absolute bone.. There is going to be repercussions throughout the economy from this decision.

[trixie]

31. If you notice

I agreed with you.

[Fumesucker]

36. Sorry, I guess I misunderstood you..

Thanks for posting.

[SoCalDem]

30. $2006 x 3 is pretty cheap for that new car...

If you are rolling over the amount due, when you trade in for the new new one, sooner or later that's going to get costly:)

If you pay cash for them, or have a BIG downpayment, you are oustide the norm for people who buy cars these days:)

[trixie]

32. never roll over the debt

That is a bad decision. My last car was bought at the dealer, during an "everyone gets worker discounts" sale and with 0% interest. I also learned to buy a brand new car at the end of the dealer year. When they show the 2010s buy the 2009 off the lot.

I have this argument every year with a coworker who is not from Michigan. She spent almost 6k last year on repairs and towing etc. She could have had a new car.

[MindPilot]

39. DMV fees and insurance are much higher for a new car.

Depreciation, sales taxes -- It looks like there are a lot of expenses you haven't factored in.

[Smith_3]

33. This is part of why Eisenhower warned of the military industrial complex.

Once war profiteering becomes the only source of income for too many people, not being at war is economically difficult.

[Fumesucker]

35. Great point, thanks for posting.. n/t

[leftofthedial]

38. I've been wanting to buy a Chevy for the last 4 years,

but I can't.

[jmg257]

42. We need the new 'space race' - Instead of building Raptors he can build LMs.

[endarkenment]

55. how about we build healthcare for all instead?

[jmg257]

56. A good idea, but it won't help many people find/replace jobs in the aerospace industry. nt

[endarkenment]

58. ultimately that is just too bad

For 60 years we have been starving our domestic infrastructure in order to feed the military industrial complex. Claiming we can't change because people will lose jobs, ignores the flip side, which is that reallocating our resources from war to peace will increase jobs outside of war industries, and instead of giving us the dubious benefit of military hegemony, will bestow on all of us the benefit of a society that takes care of its people and frees them, ironically, from the same economic insecurity that is the basis of the argument against ending our failed dreams of empire.

The MIC is a piss poor social welfare system.

[jmg257]

59. Is there something militaristic about going to the moon?

[endarkenment]

68. yes google High Frontier

it is just more PNAC bullshit. send a freaking robot.

[Fumesucker]

61. I agree, the MIC is a piss poor social welfare system..

But it beats no fucking system at all..

[bvar22]

70. No. But using that money....

...to design and build a 1st Rate Rapid Rail Transit System would.

AND, the American people would have something they could use for their money.

I would rather spend my tax money on something that I could use instead of something that explodes.

[GoCubsGo]

80. Or designing and building...

...more efficient solar panels, wind turbines and other environmentally-more friendly power-generating devices. Moving to a "green" society will require lots engineering and manufacturing smarts. Surely the guys who can design and build jet fighters and missiles can design a wind turbine that doesn't kill bats. Or, find better ways to build objects and packaging that can be easily recycled. And, deal with the zillion tons of garbage that are sitting in our landfills and will be there forever. It's not like these people will become obsolete if their jobs go away.

[Romulox]

46. Was she looking to buy a Japanese car, by any chance? nt

[Fumesucker]

65. LOL.. She doesn't listen to me..

After a fairly severe accident about a year ago in a sedan when a woman in a Suburban on a cell phone changed lanes into her she is dead set on having a huge vehicle, probably a Suburban or something in that class, Tahoe, Expedition, she even mentioned Hummer and I had to hold my eyeballs in lest they roll out of my head.

Her current car is an Expedition.

[Romulox]

72. Yes, I recall your position on the matter. Which makes me wonder why you'd think people would care

any more about the job/financial prospects of your family than you care about the job/financial prospects of other American workers? :shrug:

[Fumesucker]

73. Actually I do care..

About the workers..

Management on the other hand is entirely another story..

GM, Chrysler and to a lesser extent Ford have been ruined by crappy management, not by the workers.

But of course, you know that already even though you hate to admit it.

[Romulox]

75. Just not enough to support them with your purchases.

Hey. I'm not judging you. But it *IS* bizarre that you think that the "free market" should only cut one way.

"GM, Chrysler and to a lesser extent Ford have been ruined by crappy management, not by the workers."

The same could be said about your SIL's company (who make a product for which there is apparently NO market whatever.)

"But of course, you know that already even though you hate to admit it."

And *you* know that the economic system implicit in your OP (one way "solidarity", where other workers sacrifice so that you and yours have more funds to buy outsourced goods) is impossible, too. :hi:

[Fumesucker]

77. I've never argued that people should not buy good products made by Americans..

My argument is that many people were burned by American cars when they were indeed crappy (and some Chryslers still are) and they have developed an antipathy to those products based on their personal experiences. The fact that American cars were crappy was not the fault of the workers, it was due to abysmally poor management decisions on the part of the big wheels.

It is my understanding that the great majority of American cars are now at parity in quality to most other brands, I'm not in the market for a new car and won't be for the foreseeable future but if I were I would certainly consider American made brands and indeed would favor them all else being equal.

And if you read my OP carefully you'll see that I wasn't trying to complain about what is happening to the F22, in fact I have a moral dilemma about this situation.. I honestly think we need to get away from building so many weapons systems but rationally realize that that is one of the few really heavily unionized industries we have left in this country.

[Romulox]

78. OK, then maybe we agree more than disagree.

I sense a softening of your position here, now that the shoe may be moving to the other foot.

Still, if you look downthread, you'll find at least one other "But I can't make my Honda payment!" post on this thread. People truly seem to be ignorant of the concept of "reciprocity", and are always seemingly shocked when the system of economic darwinism that they've espoused (and in many cases, continue to espouse) applies with equal force to their own lives. :shrug:

[Fumesucker]

79. Theres a good chance that Honda was assembled in the US..

And while the non union Honda workers in the US don't do as well as UAW workers, on the whole they do far better than their neighbors in the states they're in.

And I do know the arguments about assembled versus built and the profits go overseas and so forth so there's no need to reiterate those.

My position hasn't "softened", since I haven't changed it, it's just that perhaps I'm explaining it better or perhaps you are listening better..

FWIW, I'm "working class" and have been all my life..

[Romulox]

83. You can make that argument about any worker.

While Chinese workers don't do as well US aerospace workers, on the whole they do far better than the farmers in the countryside...

"My position hasn't "softened", since I haven't changed it, it's just that perhaps I'm explaining it better or perhaps you are listening better..

FWIW, I'm "working class" and have been all my life.."

OK, then you should expect the same "solidarity" you've extended to others. Why is this so hard to understand? :shrug:

[TwixVoy]

50. My heart bleeds for her

Can't buy a new car? Obviously on CREDIT because if she had the cash for it she wouldn't have to worry about an income stream to make the payments.

Here is an idea - DON'T BUY SHIT ON CREDIT! Especially things that drop in value like a freaking rock like a new car.

[Fumesucker]

60. Is your heart also going to bleed for all the people who will lose income because of the lost sale?

Which was my actual point, not looking for sympathy at all.

Cars drop in value yes, but people need reliable transportation if they plan on working somewhere like here that has *zero* public transportation.

[immoderate]

51. Hopefully, builders of weapons can be channeled into new productive technologies.

Building fighter planes is a drain on the economy. But building new infrastructure and energy systems contributes to overall growth. I hope this can be worked out in time.

--imm

[derby378]

52. Same thing is happening in Fort Worth as well

It's only about 45 minutes away from my home, but I've got family who lives there. None of them are working on the F22, but I think my nephew was hoping to fly one when he finally joins the service. I'm sure he'll love any plane he's assigned to once the Marines certify him, but I feel bad for the folks on the Lockheed assembly lines in Texas who have obviously taken great pride in building jets for our military pilots.

[northzax]

63. the Marines aren't flying the f-22

so that was never an issue for him.

[LynneSin]

54. Those of us with jobs are spending less because we're fearful our job could be next

That is even a bigger impact on our economy - Millions of people, many just like myself, have decent jobs but the concept that 'your job is next' means we're spending less in preperation of a very possible rainy day.

[grace0418]

62. Same with us. My 1999 Civic is still doing fine but before things got really bad

I was entertaining the notion of buying a Fit in the next couple of years. Now it looks like I'll be driving the Civic until she falls apart, which thankfully will be a good long time because she's so reliable. But I know what you mean about the trickle down. We've cut back on so much since I got laid off. But it makes me sad because I've always been a big supporter of all the local shops down the street from my house. I have a bookstore, card/gift shop, bakery, deli, butcher, produce market, apothecary and kitchen store all within a 10 minute walk from my house, all locally owned. Lately though, I haven't been able to buy nearly as much, and I know they are all suffering. I'd hate to see them close.

[northzax]

64. why would you ever buy a new car?

when you can buy one that is two years old, coming off a lease, for 50% off? why spend 30 grand on something that is worth 20 grand the second you sign the papers?

[Fumesucker]

66. I wouldn't personally...

Do you have kids?

Do they listen to what you have to say?

If so you are damn lucky.

[pnutbutr]

74. That's not trickle down

Obviously you don't understand what trickle down economics is unless you are randomly applying the term "trickle down" to something else.

[ejpoeta]

81. good thing they hadn't gotten a car already, i'd say. but

i totally agree that they need to tighten their belts, because it could get kinda bumpy.

[Aloha Spirit]

82. .

oops wrong place

[Aloha Spirit]

84. Gates said there will be 3x as many jobs created from new F35 production as jobs lost from less F22s

nt