People have seen the questions and answers and have made a decision. Most have decided to err on the side of caution and sign a petition urging a stay of execution. So where is the harm in that? Or the embarrassment? It may be that there are five or 128, even one is too many.
This story has become interwoven with criminal acts and atrocities against GLBT folk in Iraq.
There needs to be a distinction between the Iraqi Court system condemning people to death for being gay, and unofficial, cleric led acts by thugs and killers.
Cleric led sexual cleansing does need our attention.”This campaign of terror is sanctioned by Iraq's leading Shia cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. In 2005, he issued a fatwa urging the killing of LGBT people in the "worst, most severe way" possible.
This is the same Sistani who was praised by President Bush as a "leading moderate". The British government concurred. We hosted him in Britain for medical treatment. He was anti-Saddam, so the west backed him, even after he issued his murderous religious edicts.
Although the general security situation has improved in Iraq, for LGBT people it has deteriorated sharply. Systematic assassinations of queers are being orchestrated by police and security agents in the interior ministry, many of whom are former members of the Iranian-backed Badr Corps militia.” -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/25/iraq-gay-rightsThis is the internet, things get more confusing with each telling.
Bigotbasher, from the UK, on Saturday wrote a carefully worded thread:
Bigotbasher wrote that among the 128 condemned:
"that five of the people on death row are their (gay) campaigners in Iraq. And they believe that many more are gay...Ali Hili of Iraqi LGBT said the five gay people on the list he knows about may be the tip of the iceberg.
He told Pink Paper: "I believe there are many more among the 128. Most of the people haven't been told the reason why they have been sentenced to death and there have been so many raids on gay parties and round-ups recently."
Pink Paper is awaiting responses from the Iraqi Embassy in London and tje Foreign Office about whether they are going to intervene, as Britain still has troops in the country and has been training the local police."Yes, there is now a petition about 128 gays about to be executed, “the IRAQI LGBT association, based in London, which calls on activists and democratic citizens to take part in an international campaign to save the lives of 128 prisoners sentenced to death because they are homosexual.”
Those two bits of information are not consistent. Are there five known condemned, or 128? This is the internet. It is very confusing, anyone can post anything and conflicting information is not uncommon and that is why corroboration is requested.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/petition-sign.cgi?iraqgay>>"We endorse the Urgent petition to save the lives of 128 homosexuals sentenced to death in Iraq."
EveryOne Group and civil society in democratic countries have taken up the appeal from the IRAQI LGBT association, based in London, which calls on activists and democratic citizens to take part in an international campaign to save the lives of 128 prisoners sentenced to death because they are homosexual. According to the judicial and religious authorities, the prisoners will be murdered in groups of about 20 people. The first series of executions is imminent. Over the last three years 132 homosexuals have been put to death, including 17 Iraqi LGBT activists.
Arcigay has officially asked the Italian Government – through the Foreign Secretary – to support the international campaign against these executions that violate all the international charters in defence of human rights. EveryOne Group is asking the American institutions - which are still very influential in Iraq - to support this petition in favour of human rights and life, and invites all democratic citizens to send requests for clemency to the politicians and authorities who are able to put a stop to these executions."<<
This is another reason there are questions regarding this matter.
There are several issues here and we have been discussing this for days.I don’t see this as a Forum wide embarrassment. I do see concern, I see good hearted people being appalled and I see some inconsistencies and lack of outside confirmation about a particular story.
The story about the alleged up coming Iraqi execution of gays did merit verification from NGO sources, not because Amnesty Intl. for example has a presence in Iraq, because as I read their web site, they do not, but because I would expect a group like Amnesty to verify the execution of human beings for their sexuality and call for action, and cite the IraqiGLBT group as their source of information.
Also, while it is tempting to assume the US is passive on this issue, it seemed less likely that everyone else in the world from the UN to Amnesty Intl. was silent and passive on this specific matter, which sounds like a terrible human rights violation.
So, there was a call for verification from secondary sources about the London based IraqiGLBT group, first and foremost, and then, if at all possible some corroboration that the execution of gays story was credible.
My concern arose after posting a link about the IraqiGBT group and how to donate money to them, was a comment in one of the UK blogs voicing concern about sending funds to a flat in London. I started to look for some cross reference on the internet about this execution story, as I felt responsible for posting a donation site and some good hearted people had already said they would send money.
I did not want to be responsible for our hard earned dollars being sent to an overseas organization without solid NGO credentials. Our money can be spent in ways that are proven to be effective and to mainstream groups, who can effect a change.
The one thing I noticed is that while this story had great internet presence and was picked up by many, many blogs, all of the stories about the executions came from the same IraqiGLBT group. To date I am not aware of any recognized NGO group like Amnesty echoing the story of gay executions.
If someone has that info. please share it and post it.The DU poster from the UK who posted one of the first threads here did provide me with a story from the Guardian in the UK, which seems to lend credibility to Mr. Hili’s group as activists who have safe houses.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/25/iraq-gay-rightsUnfortunately that story does not mention anything about the up coming executions.
Given that Iraq is an unknown and mostly impenetrable to outsiders, I can’t say we have disproved that executions will occur for people who are gay, I can only say, caveat emptor when sending money. Everyone should do their own due diligence.
As far as atrocities against GLBTQ people in Iraq, I don’t think there is any controversy over that at all.
As far as your statement: “I think we as a forum embarrassed ourselves.”
That is a matter of personal opinion. We know there are up coming executions of human beings and we are hampered by lack of inside information about Iraq.
We know the IraqiGLBT states that a number of those to be executed are gay, at least five, now, more recently cited as 128, but because we don’t know the names or charges, we can’t even rule out that there are more or less people condemned.
There is nothing to be embarrassed about on either side of this issue. Nothing has been disproved. There is no shame in asking for verification, either.
It is fair and proper to seek verification of a story that has terrible human rights violation implications and is so emotionally charged, while at the same time exhorting us to action, activism and donations.
There is already corroborating information about on-going atrocities against gays in Iraq. Just yesterday, CNN manage a tiny little crawler about the execution of six gay men in Iraq by family members, a sort of honor killing. Obviously many of us suspect that the MSM doesn’t give a damn about the plight of gays overseas, not in Iraq, not in Uganda, not in so many other places on this planet where gays are persecuted.
Each person needs to make up their own mind on this. The issue of Iraqi execution deserves our attention, further research and on going monitoring.What was requested was some corroboration from some secondary source that gays have been sentenced to death for being gay in Iraq, by the Iraqi Court. That is a separate issue above and beyond the casual murder of GLBTQ people as a matter of ad hoc social policy and sexual cleansing, that alone is hideous, however, the questions raised were about upcomming executions by the Iraqi Court, strictly on the basis of sexual orientation and not for ancillary reasons such as civil crimes.
By asking these questions, for days now, we have proven we are willing to look at issues, ask hard questions, bring these matters into the open for consideration and not be knee jerk reflexive about gay rights issues. Obviously, people have weighed the pros and cons and have made a decision and certainly, judging by the comments made in question of this issue, not in a vaccuum of information. Hats off to the gay community for staying on top of this pressing topic.
There is no question about crimes being committed against gays in Iraq or the persecution of gays in Iraq.
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