Sen Whitehouse re torture memos:"Once people get a look at what was done they will be pretty shocked

[sabra]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/04/09/hes_not_buying_bygones_for_bush/?page=2

<snip>

But with Newsweek recently reporting that the Obama administration is preparing to declassify several "ugly" Bush administration memos on rough interrogation techniques, the truth commission may find fresh traction.

"Once people get a look at what was done they will be pretty shocked," Whitehouse said.

He has issued ominous warnings from the Senate floor: "We may have to face the prospect," he has said, "of looking with horror at our own country's deeds."

What tea leaves is he reading? Whitehouse, who also serves on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, has been exercising his authority to see documents about classified programs. "Let's just say I'm in a position to know what I'm talking about," he said.

[hedgehog]

1. The problem with statements like this is that when the truth

does comes to light, too many people respond by saying "it wasn't that bad" because they imagined worse.

[Winterblues]

3. What's worse than torture?

If we as a nation tortured people we need to come to grips with it and do something about it. If we sweep this under the rug then the very next time we elect Republicans we can expect a repeat of it..Republicans are not the least bit shamed by these revelations.

[hedgehog]

5. Putting people in isolation, depriving them of sleep, forcing them

into stress positions are all examples of torture that have become acceptable practice.

[EFerrari]

34. Sodomy and murder come to mind, too. n/t

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

42. acceptable

and not only at Black Sites.

[A Simple Game]

55. What's worse than torture?

"Jason meets Freddy in Texas for a chainsaw duel."

You only need to watch some movies to get your answer.

I don't watch very many of them, and haven't seen one in years, but they are plenty graphic.

These types of movies desensitize people. What was gross 20 years ago, is not so gross today.

What's so bad about water boarding? I saw a guy get his guts ripped out with a chainsaw yesterday!

[Blackhatjack]

7. There is not a chance in the world of that happening in this case ....

We are facing crimes that will shock the conscience no matter how bad people may have anticipated them to be in advance.

Witness the force being brought to bear on the Obama Administration to keeps these memos under wraps.

And once the memos are released, the next natural question will be 'was any of this ever carried out?' That is when the top blows off this rumbling volcano....

[Echo In Light]

9. Any uproar will pass quickly. Re Abu Ghraib, that had pictures yet was forgotten quickly

[bjobotts]

29. Only downplayed in USA. The world is showing us for what we are now

[acmavm]

35. That had pictures and the courts told the bush** admin to release them

to the public no less.

And you're right. They didn't.

[lunatica]

38. It was never forgotten. Just because the msm never talks about it

doesn't mean it was forgotten. You seem to still remember. I certainly do. Everyone here remembers. The MSM doesn't own anything anymore, and this very issue is one of the reasons it's becoming irrelevant.

[Bluenorthwest]

45. NOT forgotten

We all remember what Rumsfeld said about them. And I for one think every single day about the fact that the President knows the truth and is refusing to tell that truth. It defines him.

[defendandprotect]

27. I think it will depend on how much of the information is released . . .

can we be sure we'll get all of it?

[Horse with no Name]

24. I honestly cannot imagine worse than what I have heard exists

I mean seriously...raping a man's wife and children in front of him so he will "tell all"?
Does it REALLY get worse than that? Somehow I don't think so.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

43. It is worse than that, but

that's not what Whitehouse is referring too.






In your own country.

[northernlights]

50. we read worse on here

see #49.

[northernlights]

49. not too long ago we read about razor-blade slicing

of genitals, with supporting scars on a prisoner who was returned to the UK. The article was in a thread or two on this board.

That might seem mundane to some. It sure shocked the hell out of me, and still does.

[wryter2000]

2. So, when will people find out?

I'm not blaming Whitehouse here. If we had real news media, they'd be all over these memos. We've been torturing people, and the people who are supposed to inform us have nothing to say about it.

[sabra]

6. according to reports AG Holder wants to release them now - CIA officials are the ones trying to halt

the release... it could be released in the coming weeks...

[wryter2000]

22. I hope so

This excrement really needs to hit the fan and splatter back on the war criminals. Also, "Americans" who think it's okay to torture in order to keep their precious tushies "safe" need to have their noses rubbed in some reality.

[Horse with no Name]

25. The same CIA that destroyed tapes that were supposedly under

court order.
I had heard that there was an internal struggle between good v. evil in the CIA. Right now, seems the evil is winning.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. Holder is all bluster

I'll believe he 'wants' to release them when they are released. He is the Attorney General of the United States of America. He needs to act like it.

[KansDem]

11. Good observation....

If we had real news media...

Just look at the UK intel breaching scandal. CorpNews has been all over this...

But what about...Valarie Who?

Bob Quick, Britain's most senior police officer, resigned. But we're stilling waiting for the outcome of "Plame-gate."

[kpete]

4. xlnt find

yes good news

K&R

[JohnnyLib2]

8. + 1

Rec.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Bush has to be worried about this

because if the truth comes out, how will he be able to avoid prosecution?

[sabra]

12. word is the Senate Repubs plan to go "nuclear" with Obama appoinments

if he decides to release the memos... CYA time

[merh]

28. please explain to me, what does that mean "go nuclear"

and how does that have an impact.

Don't the dems have the majority in both houses? And why no make recess appointments - they worked for bushco.

And just play the truth card "repubs blocking appointments in retaliation against the truth" - smear them with their pettiness - link them to the horrific by showing how they wanted to bury the truth.

[tclambert]

36. Nuclear option to stop a filibuster in the Senate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_option

"In U.S. politics, the nuclear option is an attempt by the presiding officer of the United States Senate to end a filibuster by majority vote, as opposed to 60 senators voting to end a filibuster. Although it is not provided for in the formal rules of the Senate, the procedure is the subject of a 1957 parliamentary opinion and has been used on several occasions since. The term was coined by Senator Trent Lott (Republican of Mississippi) in 2005."

Currently, the Senate rules say it takes a vote of 60 Senators to stop a filibuster from preventing a vote on a particular bill. The Dems are 2 votes short. A united Republican block in the Senate can thus vote to stall any action. That is about the only power they have left. It is why Obama has been trying to make nice with them, in order to sway 2 votes. And it is why Al Franken's election in Minnesota is so important, and delaying it is so important to the Republicans. One vote closer makes the Democrats' task a lot easier.

The "nuclear option" would make it easier to stop a filibuster. But then what happens to your own party's power when the other side gains a majority?

Post 12 used the term incorrectly. Probably intended to mean the Republican Senators would use their filibuster power to prevent votes to approve Obama appointees.

[merh]

37. thank you for the explanation

If I understand you correctly,it would be dems using the nuclear option to stop the filibuster.

What I don't get is how GWB was able to do so much damage when the repubs had so tiny a majority. Isn't our majority(s) larger than the majority they held? Why is our "side" so sacred?

And there are always "recess appointments" - they worked so well for GWB.

And I want to see the repubs stink up congress because the truth was made public, because the torture memos are released. That will do them so much good in 2010 and 2012.

[L. Coyote]

13. Lots of evidence = CIA Has 3,000 Docs on Torture Tapes

Governments create paper trails!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5303329

[rhett o rick]

44. Never a worry. The commission is for show just like the Warren Commission and all the other

white washes. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

[Gregorian]

14. And if you think the torture was excruciating, wait until we see the actual invasion damage.

I find this kind of inability to empathize, or visualize, the hideous damage we have inflicted upon others to be an indication of just what kind of people we have in this country. I can safely extrapolate that into the way we are treating the environment. Story after story of the extreme damage that was inflicted even in that decade of SANCTIONS. Or the depleted Uranium that now litters the countryside of Iraq.

Why do I hate America, I heard a conservative ask one time. The answer is not why I hate it, but why the rest of the world does. And that is your answer. No one likes a bull in a China shop.

[hedgehog]

15. It occurs to me, that we here have seen photos that were never

widely published in the MSM. I'm thinking of the photo of the little boy who lost both arms (and legs?) in the bombing that killed in family in the first days of the invasion.

[closeupready]

17. Well, if you are going to make an omelette,

right? :sarcasm: :mad:

[hedgehog]

19. I can see that little boy's face in my mind, but I can't bring myself to

look up the photo to check the details.

[closeupready]

20. Knowing what was done in our name does have a soulcrushing impact,

at least on me it does. I try not to think about it, but that's not the adult thing to do, and I have to fight that impulse.

[Gregorian]

21. Ali. He was later adopted by a physician in the states, if I recall.

Just one of a million. Hard to fathom the suffering. And to think of all of the people i've met who say we should have nuked them. Sick.

[closeupready]

16. Further to that point, as the world's only superpower, as we go, so go those who aspire to be mighty

And God forbid that other countries get the idea that between 1945 and today, somehow, torture again became acceptable in 'certain circumstances' (and of course, every country will redefine those circumstances to fit their own theaters of war).

[barbtries]

18. how about facing the prospect

of prosecuting the criminals involved in these horrors?!?!

what is so fucking hard about that?!

[tomm2thumbs]

23. will Beck pour fake gasoline over himself after Bush-Cheney's horrors are revealed?

maybe - for ratings, he'd wipe a frog's ass with a Q-tip

[Orsino]

47. I'm not sure what he'll do...

...but I know that it will be fake.

[rhett o rick]

26. Truth Commission, will that be like the Warren Commission, or the 9/11 Commission.

"Hey Martha, we have a Truth Commission, I feel so much better". That's as bad as an investigation. What did we get out of the lengthy Plame investigation, nothing. The sooner people figure out that they are all in this together, the sooner we can get on with the revolution.

[bjobotts]

30. We already know they're guilty.We need a prosecuter not a commission

[truth2power]

31. Yeah. And when are we gonna see them?? Release 'em, already! n/t

[johan helge]

32. K & R for Sen Whitehouse!

[democrank]

33. Prosecute every last one of these war criminals.

[merh]

39. Here is just one of the crimes they can charge the bastards with

18 USC § 2340A. Torture

(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—

(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or

(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.

(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.

§ 2340. Definitions

As used in this chapter—

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—

(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

(C) the threat of imminent death; or

(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and

(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html

[hangman86]

40. I said this before in another post

and I'll say it again, "we put our bank accounts before our values." I'm not sure what it's going to take to get a majority of Americans angry about torture right now. And the fact that our President is willing to overlook the war crimes committed by the previous administration certainly doesn't help. But when the economy's at stake we'll rationalize almost anything the current leader is or isn't doing. It's sad. :(

[SlingBlade]

41. They knew, Every goddamed one of them knew

what was going on

[Wapsie B]

48. Yup. It was so much more comfortable to bury their heads in the sand

rather than confront something like this.

[Joey Liberal]

51. Let the trials begin nt

[ThomWV]

52. If that's the best he can do then he is nothing but an irrelevant pissant

Read the god damned Red Cross report.

God dam it - someone - in fact many people - have to go to jail behind this. We "may have to face the prospect"? What in all that is good on this earth is the man talking about? There is no "May" involved here. God dam it, something must be done and it must be done now.

[Johnnyheadstone]

53. So what....

I know that is really cynical, but really so what? Yeah everyone will be shocked until Angelina tries to adopt another baby, or Jennifer Aniston starts dating some new guy, or "OctoMom" makes a sex tape or some other stupid shit that will take our focus and attention from what is going on and what is important back to the same bullshit 99.9% of this country focuses on....

Don't you get it? We got all the change we were going to get when Obama was elected...he was elected to placate the masses who were ready to take to the streets...the same way the civil rights legislation that passed in the late 1960's was used to placate everyone without making or allowing any meaningful change, for example, do we still have racial separation in this country? Of course we do, we just are not allowed to do it legally so instead we just use economic segregation, keep the people we don't want near us poor and uneducated or in prison so they can not compete economically and thus are separated out by those we can afford better...the powers that be concede just enough on the surface to keep the populace under their control for another 30-40 years or so...until some new shit blows up, people get pissed and they decide that they need to sell us on yet another "great day for america"

It's bullshit. No one will see justice for the crimes committed, it will be swept away and forgotten about (hello Watergate, Iran Contra, SNL Crises of the late 80's) in large measure because of the manufactured economic crisis that we have all fallen for, which again no one will be held responsible for, no one in any position of power actually gets punished for abusing that power...it's really simple...the argument has already been changed from "was a crime committed" to "is this really a crime if it was even done"

If you are waiting for an investigation, forget about it, you have a better chance of winning the lottery.......without buying a ticket.

As the great Richard Pryor once said: "There is no justice....Just Us that's it"

[Texano78704]

54. Release the memos

Do it already. There are lots of countries with the cojones to prosecute war crimes and crimes against humanity.