IMMEDIATELY! Investigate War Crimes Or Lose Your Seat Mr President and Dem's(TPM)

[kpete]

Investigate War Crimes Or Lose Your Seat Mr President and Dem's
April 8, 2009, 8:20PM

Torture is more than a repugnant series of "procedures" applied to the fourteen "high-value detainees" at "black site" CIA prisons--procedures described with chilling and patient particularity in this authoritative report. Torture is a critical issue in the present of our politics. By torturing, the United States has wounded itself and helped its enemies in what is inherently a political war. And by torturing prisoners, many of whom were implicated in committing great crimes against Americans, the United States has made it impossible to render justice on those criminals.

By Mark Danner
http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf


http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/coonsey/2009/04/investigate-war-crimes-or-lose.php?ref=reccafe

All I can say is, I pray the government never takes it upon itself to assume that I am guilty of something, because if they do you may as well claim me dead.

The Bush administration didn't have to prove any right or wrong being done by anybody or to anybody -- they were the LAW. These prisoners weren't even recognized as having BEEN a prisoner, let alone tortured while being one. And these doctors who profess to wanting to save lives and heal the sick and those in pain -- should be found and sent away to their own prison.

Most of all, former President George W Bush and VP Dick Cheney should pay for their war crimes --- IMMEDIATELY!

If President Obama allows this torturing and spying and lies to be brushed aside, I will not vote for the man in 2012. Plain and simple. I don't care if he does save our economy, gets us off oil dependency and starts up health care. The same holds true toward the Democrats in Congress. If they can't do their jobs, they don't deserve American's votes.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

1. INVESTIGATE ALL CRIMES OR STEP DOWN MR PRESIDENT!!

We have to push for this or Bushco WILL walk.

K&R

[Bucky]

2. Not TPM. It's a posting on TPM Cafe, a public discussion board

You wouldn't confuse a Letter to the Editor in the NY Times with a NY Times editorial. Don't make the same mistake here.

[kpete]

5. i apologize

but life happened - and now it is too late to edit.

Thanks Bucky for pointing this out to everyone.
peace, kp

[Bucky]

8. peace

the green lady wishes you well

[Ticonderoga]

32. Ha Ha....I love that !

"Handsome, Pretty Handsome, Doctah Smith". lol

[FiveGoodMen]

3. Completely agree!

Your last paragraph, in particular, is just spot on.

Nothing can compensate for covering up BushCo's crimes.

[rhett o rick]

4. I think Pres Obama would do this if enough people made enough stink.

Right now it would look like a partisan witch hunt. But if enough people made enough noise, he would be forced to take action. I think that's what he wants. Forgive my poor memory, but there is a similar story about FDR where some group came to him and said we need this legislation. FDR knew it was political dynamite so he told them to make him. They got the message and built a movement and he gladly did their bidding. We need a movement.

[tbyg52]

9. I think so too. We've got to make him. nt

[acmavm]

19. I am not being snarfy but how would investigations into what amounts

to an on-going scheme of criminal activity (lying us into wars, theft of billions from the Treasury, giving out no-bid contracts to obvious conflict of interest corporations, and standing by while their shoddy work killed American service men and women, allowing the oil companies to gouge us during a time of 'war', etc.) see partisan?

It is simply upholding the Constitution and the laws of our land.

[rhett o rick]

29. Well let's just say that it would be painted partisan by the MSM and the repuke criminals. nm

[blublu]

62. stink.

So we do nothing then? I say lets cause a "Big Stink" and if the MSM and the repukes don't like it, well its just tough and I wont loose any sleep over it.

[rhett o rick]

65. I am for stink.

We need to help Pres Obama. We need to make a huge stink so he will have the excuse he needs to take action. Stink away.

[ChiciB1]

85. Just Adding MY Two Cents... I AGREE With What I've Read So Far....

But I'm a Pacifist and am against War in general. Of course WE NEVER should have stuck our finger in the Middle East of ALL PLACES, but I'm one who actually thinks we should "cut & run!"

I know my idea isn't popular, but we've made enough of a mess and THEY really don't want us there AND THEY have been fighting their Religious Wars since FOREVER!!

Hold Obama and Congress accountable and let's stop throwing so much money out the window!!!!

[jtrockville]

6. and justice for all

[Pastiche423]

7. K&R!

[Dinger]

10. kpete, I Just Don't Know What To Say

That's because you say it for me. :)

[tomp]

11. there is no other reasonable OR patriotic course of action.

prosecute the war crimes AND all the other crimes.

[ThomWV]

12. K&R and I plan to keep this up where it can be seen.

[omega minimo]

13. boost

:kick:

[SammyWinstonJack]

40. I'll help with that.

:kick: and rec'd

[jannyk]

14. k&r

[pleah]

15. K&R

Prosecutions and nothing less.

[daughter of liberty2]

16. K+R

:thumbsup: :kick:

[Senator]

17. "Looking Forward" Is Just Looking Away

And also looking over the steering wheel of the torture getaway car.

---

[democrank]

18. "Plain and simple" indeed.

Add me to the list of those who will not vote for Obama in 2012 if he does not investigate these barbaric war crimes.

[Kitty Herder]

20. K&R

[Enthusiast]

21. K&R

Consider the millions of American prisoners living a horrible life behind bars while this evil cabal live out their lives in luxury after far more egregious violations.

[Hubert Flottz]

22. 'No JUSTICE, No PEACE!

K&R...

[MissDeeds]

23. K&R

I cannot believe this is even in question. It's not only the right thing to do, it's the necessary thing to do. I am sickened that Obama and our Dem "leadership" is not making this a top priority.

All the campaign rhetoric about change is looking more and more like a snow job. The direction this administration is taking better take a left turn soon or this is one voter who will be voting for change in the next election.

[SammyWinstonJack]

42. Snow job is EXACTLY what is was, on so many issues.

[butterfly77]

64. Wrong...

and the reasons have been stated by others so I will not give you my list of reasons...

[hangman86]

24. And, to add to your list, it's INHUMANE AND DOESN'T WORK!

I know you are aware of that. But unfortunately, as you point out, political reasons have more sway in Washington than plain facts. Getting reelected is more important than doing the humane thing. And if Obama does succeed in fixing the economy, health care, and reducing our dependence on foreign, our anti-torture vote won't make a difference in 2012. Many people have put foreign policy related issues on the back burner with the economy's downturn and they won't kick out someone who fixes it. American citizens should share part of the blame here. We put our bank accounts before our values.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

25. Done

All I can say is, I pray the government never takes it upon itself to assume that I am guilty of something, because if they do you may as well claim me dead.

[Kaleva]

26. Not enough votes to make any difference

So the threat of the President possibly losing his seat is meaningless.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. Sorry but it is not

He had the votes of millions of people who would not have bothered to vote for another Democrat. In my life, every single voter I brought to Obama came from Greens, or from Jades...those so jaded that they no longer bother to vote. None of them will repeat that vote the way it is going now. Not one of them. The most ardent Obama supporter I knew in the Primary times now will not even talk about politics. He feels utterly and personally betrayed. He put himself on the line for Obama, and now he feels like a shill or a fool. Everything he said 'warmonger Hillary' would do, Obama has done. Those things mean much to voters.
He opposes equal rights for my family, just like a Republican. If you add torture coverups there is no reason for me to vote for the man at all. In 08, I voted against my families best interests and ignored the homophobia. I did that in order to save the country, which can only be done via truth and justice.

[Kaleva]

48. Twice as many moderates voted for Obama as did Liberals

This is what I got by looking at CNN exit polling data after the election. By doing some further calculations, I figured that had Obama and McCain split the moderate vote 50/50, McCain would have won the popular vote. As long as Obama retains the center, he's pretty assured of winning re-election in 2012.

While Obama may lose some votes from the Left, I think most, even if they are sorely disappointed in him, will convince themselves that a Republican alternative would be far worse.

[iamthebandfanman]

71. people didnt 'convince' themselves in 2000

and look at th margin it provided for them to steal the election.



thats okay though, keep it up democratic party...
keep shitting on the people whove always supported you , and always been your back bone...

one day we wont be here.

[OwnedByFerrets]

27. K and R

[LeftHandPath]

28. No Justice, No Peace...

Face it, they arent afraid of us.

They have stolen our tax dollars to float the insolvent banks with trillions.

We continue to fight and fund 2 wars.

And Cheney is still doing Sunday morning interviews.

There are 2 Americas, one for the rich and connected, and one for the proles, where the laws are applied ruthlessly.

It wont stop until they fear us again. And we wont make them fear us again until enough people have lost enough to care.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. What A Dolt.

[NNN0LHI]

31. Yea I am sure the Republicans who replace them will do a thorough investigation

Some people are nuts.

Don

[pnwmom]

33. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Don't vote for Obama, Danner says, if he doesn't prosecute the Rethugs. According to him, then, we should stand by and watch the country get thrown back into the claws of the Rethugs, so they can start up their war crimes again.

This kind of "ethics" makes no sense.

Are there really progressives who are that dumb? Or is this just a Rethug trying to lead an insurrection of gullible Dems?

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Covering a war crime IS a war crime

So 'start up again' what never stopped. What is the meaning of a lable like Republican or Democrat if they behave in the same way. While you assume the torture has stopped, unless we know the facts, that is just an assumption. They cover up for war criminals. That makes them war criminals. And perhaps they are still doing it. Can you prove that they are not? The refusal to prosecute points to a continuation of the practices, if you ask me.
The covering up of war crimes is in itself a war crime.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. WHEN does it become a crime?

When he has been President for one day and not prosecuted them? One week? One month? One year?

[tomp]

54. as soon as you are aware of it, have the power to act, and don't.

that would be day 1 for obama, the first black criminal president.

[Senator]

61. While you're correct about the criteria,...

..."day 1" for Obama was the day he was sworn in as Senator. All Gov't officials are duty bound to act and to act on suspicion, not "proven" facts. And there are no exceptions for wanting to win the next election.

Obama, and the rest of the DC-Dems, have been guilty for literally years.

Ironically, when he was sworn in as "head of state," he became immune from prosecution. Still guilty, but unprosecutable under the treaties -- US law may still be enforceable though.

----

[tomp]

72. i can go with that. nt

[berni_mccoy]

47. "Are there really progressives who are that dumb?" Answer: YES!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

34. This country had the audacity to complain about other countries' human rights violations

yet at the same time Bush and cheney were doing exactly the same thing

[TBF]

35. I'm with you kpete. K&R

Such an embarrassment that there are so many dem war-mongers these days.

[emald]

38. either we have rule of law, or we have anarchy.

It appears we are headed towards anarchy. It appears that our President wishes to maintain the anarchical state Bush set up. I am with the op author, no money, no vote, no nothing for the dems, or anyone else for that matter, unless we see that the rule of law applies to all, including the rich fools who have destroyed our country.

[emmadoggy]

39. K & R. Make them pay. NOW.

[yy4me]

43. Ditto. No justice? No vote in 2012. No excuse, Mr President.

[Freddie Stubbs]

44. The reminds me of the whining that claimed that Obama and Congressional Democrats would lose if

there was no impeachment.

[glitch]

67. "whining" about war crimes and impeachment (for treason, btw).

Do you even read your own words?

[bbgrunt]

45. Amen.

[ProSense]

46. Write to your members of Congress and call for his impeachment. n/t

[karynnj]

69. But - even if you got half the House and 2/3 of the Senate - it would be for nothing

Joe Biden is no more likely to go after war crimes, nor is Pelosi, Byrd, Hillary Clinton etc

The op article is stupid in making this threat.

[Senator]

74. Oh, I dunno. Biden could well be K-R-ing this thread.

If it's his ticket to the big chair, what's the harm in "doing the right thing" (his quotes).

---

[Individualist]

49. K&R

[ProSense]

50. Question:

here.

[BlueJessamine]

51. K&R!

:kick:

[katandmoon]

52. K&R!

[Orwellian_Ghost]

53. But we've been told "We can't look back"

"We have to move forward to get things done"

"These investigations would split the nation"

So what do you think? Meaningless slogans over the Constitution?

Jonathan Turley: These are war crimes. These are special categories. . . . The downside to all the pageantry -- and it is certainly well-deserved -- is that it's important for people who lift their hand in front of that building to understand the difference between the man and the mandate.

And the mandate here, as far as I understood it, is that we were going to have a true change, where people would be held accountable. And all this talk about civility makes it sound like it's just simply uncivil to investigate people for war crimes. . . .

All they have to do is say: "we're going to allow the law to be enforced." That's not a very difficult thing to say. But it's going to be inconvenient. But principles are always inconvenient. It's never a good time for principle. . . .

What I think the new Barack Obama -- President Obama -- is going to find it very hard to do is go around the world and say: "we're now again a nation of laws," if the first act he commits as President is to walk away from confirmed war crimes.

[Life Long Dem]

55. Investigate or the sky will fall!

:rofl:

[MadBadger]

56. Currently there are 87 recs for impeachment

[Individualist]

57. link?

[MadBadger]

60. Its called the OP..."investigate or lose your seat Mr. President"

He isnt investigating soo...

[Seen the light]

73. Do you understand the concept of being voted out of office?

Or is that beyond your grasp?

[leftofthedial]

58. Have Obama and Holder become accomplices to war crimes

by refusing to investigate?

[ThomWV]

59. So long as they refuse to investigate they are complicit in the crimes.

As are the Chairmen of both the House and Senate Intelligence, Justice, Defense, and Government Oversight Committees.

[grahamhgreen]

77. Yes! I believe you are right - put me on the jury.

[demigoddess]

81. Who are you going to put in his place?? A pro-war pro torture republican??

Cut off your nose to spite your face??? much???

[JDPriestly]

63. I support war crime trials for all involved.

Following orders is no excuse. Further, I support investigations and possibly trials regarding the falsification of evidence prior to our invasion of Iraq, an inquiry about the criminal neglect in the days preceding the devastation of Katrina, hearings at which top level officials respond to questioning about where money stolen and lost by contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan ended up, further trials regarding the Abramoff scandal, and, above all, complete disclosure of the details of the illegal surveillance programs of the Bush administration.

[MadBadger]

66. 96 Recs for Impeachment

[Just-plain-Kathy]

68. "Error: You've already recommended that thread."

[StarryNite]

70. I agree!

Now how do we make him do it? I don't want to have to wait until 2012.

[seemslikeadream]

75. yes

[grahamhgreen]

76. If he does not prosecute known crimes, is he not complicit in those crimes?

[WA98296]

78. So much for our Constitution in the hands of "democrats". It's a deal breaker for me.

[AtomicKitten]

79. It is his constitutional duty to prosecute war crimes.

I patiently await him coming to terms with that.

I am still hopeful he will do the right thing.

[winyanstaz]

80. Return us to the rule of law and restore the Constitution or step down

and this is for every single one of our politic ans, republican and democrats alike........time to do your damed job!

[iandhr]

82. This is the most moronic

thing in my life

Prosecution is not going to happen by any president by any party. Get that threw your think skulls.

I don't care if he does save our economy, gets us off oil dependency and starts up health care.

[orleans]

83. just another k&r for ya! n/t

[rambler_american]

84. K& almost R

Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

[MasonJar]

86. I am all for giving Obama cover by insisting he prosecute war criminals;

however, he should not wait for us to push him to do what is right. He should do it because it is right. The American people voted for change. We are not getting it.

[ThomWV]

87. Kick because I can't recommend this post enough.