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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 08:52 AM
Original message
60 drone hits kill 14 al-Qaeda men, 687 civilians
Edited on Fri Apr-10-09 08:54 AM by JohnyCanuck
Friday, April 10, 2009

By Amir Mir

LAHORE: Of the 60 cross-border predator strikes carried out by the Afghanistan-based American drones in Pakistan between January 14, 2006 and April 8, 2009, only 10 were able to hit their actual targets, killing 14 wanted al-Qaeda leaders, besides perishing 687 innocent Pakistani civilians. The success percentage of the US predator strikes thus comes to not more than six per cent.

Figures compiled by the Pakistani authorities show that a total of 701 people, including 14 al-Qaeda leaders, have been killed since January 2006 in 60 American predator attacks targeting the tribal areas of Pakistan. Two strikes carried out in 2006 had killed 98 civilians while three attacks conducted in 2007 had slain 66 Pakistanis, yet none of the wanted al-Qaeda or Taliban leaders could be hit by the Americans right on target. However, of the 50 drone attacks carried out between January 29, 2008 and April 8, 2009, 10 hit their targets and killed 14 wanted al-Qaeda operatives. Most of these attacks were carried out on the basis of intelligence believed to have been provided by the Pakistani and Afghan tribesmen who had been spying for the US-led allied forces stationed in Afghanistan.

The remaining 50 drone attacks went wrong due to faulty intelligence information, killing hundreds of innocent civilians, including women and children. The number of the Pakistani civilians killed in those 50 attacks stood at 537, in which 385 people lost their lives in 2008 and 152 people were slain in the first 99 days of 2009 (between January 1 and April 8).

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21440

And they are seriously talking that within 10 years or so these assassination drones will be made completely autonomous to seek out and fire at targets without human intervention, just acting under the direction of computer programs. Message to lurkers from the Pentagon and/or members of the MIC: YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING LUNATICS!
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. "without human intervention" wasnt that in Terminator?
then start using them to patrol us here, then allow them to flyby and zap us......then Skynet and T-1000's all over the place
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Coming soon to your friendly skies - Your neighborhood terminator drone.
Terminator Planet
Launching the Drone Wars

By Tom Engelhardt

SNIP

If you want to read the single most chilling line yet uttered about drone warfare American-style, it comes at the end of Christopher Drew's piece. He quotes Brookings Institution analyst Peter Singer saying of our Predators and Reapers: "hese systems today are very much Model T Fords. These things will only get more advanced."

In other words, our drone wars are being fought with the airborne equivalent of cars with cranks, but the "race" to the horizon is already underway. By next year, some Reapers will have a far more sophisticated sensor system with 12 cameras capable of filming a two-and-a-half mile round area from 12 different angles. That program has been dubbed "Gorgon Stare", but it doesn't compare to the future 92-camera Argus program whose initial development is being funded by the Pentagon's blue-skies outfit, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

Soon enough, a single pilot may be capable of handling not one but perhaps three drones, and drone armaments will undoubtedly grow progressively more powerful and "precise." In the meantime, BAE Systems already has a drone four years into development, the Taranis, that should someday be "completely autonomous"; that is, it theoretically will do without human pilots. Initial trials of a prototype are scheduled for 2010.

By 2020, so claim UAV enthusiasts, drones could be engaging in aerial battle and choosing their victims themselves. As Robert S. Boyd of McClatchy reported recently, "The Defense Department is financing studies of autonomous, or self-governing, armed robots that could find and destroy targets on their own. On-board computer programs, not flesh-and-blood people, would decide whether to fire their weapons."

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175056/filling_the_skies_with_assassins
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. not in my name! ahh the good old USA, creating more death and destruction
this time under a DLC administration...
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. It sounds like the drones biggest issue isn't the drones
but the faulty intelligence that sends them the wrong target. How the hell are they going to automate that?
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. "killed 14 al-Qaeda men, 687 civilians"...and created how many thousand
potential new terrorists??? :mad:
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. 9/11 killed 19 al queada men and 2,000 civilians
So the cure is eeriely similar to the disease
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. And what exactly did these dead civilians killed by drones
have to do with 9/11
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. Collateral deaths of the innocent mean nothing to these sociopaths.
Fucking terminator machine makers. Skynet is coming soon to your country.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. The sad fact is that nothing has changed. n/t
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. And nothing will change. $84b more for illegal war and occupation.
x(
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
9. when the enemy is thousands of miles away...
it is just another video game. they do not see the horror they create on their computer screens
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
10. Roger Waters....The Bravery of being out of Range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzofJeg5bPo

You have a natural tendency
To squeeze off a shot
You're good fun at parties
You wear the right masks
You're old but you still
Like a laugh in the locker room
You can't abide change
You're at home on the range
You opened your suitcase
Behind the old workings
To show off the magnum
You deafened the canyon
A comfort a friend
Only upstaged in the end
By the Uzi machine gun
Does the recoil remind you
Remind you of sex
Old man what the hell you gonna kill next
Old timer who you gonna kill next
I looked over Jordan and what did I see
Saw a U.S. Marine in a pile of debris
I swam in your pools
And lay under your palm trees
I looked in the eyes of the Indian
Who lay on the Federal Building steps
And through the range finder over the hill
I saw the front line boys popping their pills
Sick of the mess they find
On their desert stage
And the bravery of being out of range
Yeah the question is vexed
Old man what the hell you gonna kill next
Old timer who you gonna kill next
Hey bartender over here
Two more shots
And two more beers
Sir turn up the TV sound
The war has started on the ground
Just love those laser guided bombs
They're really great
For righting wrongs
You hit the target
And win the game
From bars 3,000 miles away
3,000 miles away
We play the game
With the bravery of being out of range
We zap and maim
With the bravery of being out of range
We strafe the train
With the bravery of being out of range
We gain terrain
With the bravery of being out of range
With the bravery of being out of range
We play the game
With the bravery of being out of range
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. Is this some more of that "change" we heard about?
A kinder, gentler, war, one that has fucking six percent targeting accuracy while we continue to slaughter innocents?

Get the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan now, it is because of shit like this that we've already lost both wars. Get the fuck out, rescue what is left of our reputation, and preserve the lives of the innocents around the world.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. kick n/t
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
14. Seeing the sickening reality
America's Imperial Wars: We Need to See the Sickening Reality

by Dave Lindorff Page 1 of 1 page(s)

When I was a 17-year-old kid in my senior year of high school, I didn't think much about Vietnam. It was 1967, the war was raging, but I didn't personally know anyone who was over there, Tet hadn't happened yet. If anything, the excitement of jungle warfare attracted my interest more than anything (I had a .22 cal rifle, and liked to go off in the woods and shoot at things, often, I'll admit, imagining it was an armed enemy.)

But then I had to do a major project in my humanities program and I chose the Vietnam War. As I started researching this paper, which was supposed to be a multi-media presentation, I ran across a series of photos of civilian victims of American napalm bombing. These victims, often, were women and children-even babies.

The project opened my eyes to something that had never occurred to me: my country's army was killing civilians. And it wasn't just killing them. It was killing them, and maiming them, in ways that were almost unimaginable in their horror: napalm, phosphorus, anti-personnel bombs that threw out spinning flechettes that ripped through the flesh like tiny buzz saws, and gunships that randomly spewed out so many projectiles that everything within the range of several football fields was killed or maimed almost instantly (all weapons still in use now)

I learned that scientists like what I at the time wanted to become were actually working on projects to make these weapons even more lethal, for example trying to make napalm more sticky so it would burn longer on exposed flesh.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/America-s-Imperial-Wars-W-by-Dave-Lindorff-090410-985.html
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
15. aren't these war crimes? nt
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 11:14 AM by G_j
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Typically its the losing side that gets charged with war crimes.
And the USA hasn't lost (not yet anyway).
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. "aggressive war"
true, even though we took part of the treaties..

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/imt_jack02.asp

Robert H. Jackson : chief United States prosecutor at the Nuremberg (August 12, 1945).

"The definitions under which we will try the Germans are general definitions. They impose liability upon war-making statesmen of all countries alike. If we can cultivate in the world the idea that aggressive war-making is the way to the prisoner's dock rather than the way to honors, we will have accomplished something toward making the peace more secure."


The privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating, that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored, because it cannot survive their being repeated. That four great nations, flushed with victory and stung with injury stay the hand of vengeance and voluntarily submit their captive enemies to the judgment of the law is one of the most significant tributes that Power has ever paid to Reason.


/////////////////////////


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/International_War_Crimes/Nuremberg_Fallujah.html

The Crime of War: From Nuremberg to Fallujah

A review of current international law regarding wars of aggression

by Nicolas J. S. Davies

Z magazine, February 2005

<snip>
It is important to understand that war crimes fall into two classes: (1) war crimes relevant to battlefield conduct; (2) waging a war of aggression. To explain what was at that time an unprecedented focus on the second kind of war crime, war of aggression, the Nuremberg Judgment included the following statement: "The charges in the indictment that the defendants planned and waged aggressive wars are charges of the utmost gravity. War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

The treaty that outlawed the waging of aggressive war was the General Treaty for the Renunciation of War, otherwise known as the Kellogg-Briand Pact or the Pact of Paris. It was named for U.S. Secretary of State Frank B. Kellogg and the French statesperson Aristide Briand. It was signed by President Coolidge in 1928 and duly ratified by the U.S. Senate. It was the result of a decade of negotiations and lesser diplomatic achievements to prevent war and was motivated by the horror and tragedy of World War I. In 1932, the new Secretary of State, Henry L. Stimson, made the following statement regarding its significance: "War between nations was renounced by the signatories of the Kellogg-Briand Treaty. This means that it has become throughout practically the entire world... an illegal thing. Hereafter, when engaged in armed conflict, either one or both of them must be termed violators of this general treaty law .... We denounce them as law breakers."

The convictions of German leaders at Nuremberg for the crime of waging aggressive war were based entirely on the Kellogg-Briand Pact and the history of lesser treaties that led up to its signing. The Nuremberg Judgment states: "The question is, what was the legal effect of this pact? The nations who signed the pact or adhered to it unconditionally condemned recourse to war for the future as an instrument of policy, and expressly renounced it. After the signing of the pact, any nation resorting to war as an instrument of national policy breaks the pact. In the opinion of the Tribunal, the solemn renunciation of war as an instrument of national policy necessarily involves the proposition that such a war is illegal in international law; and that those who plan and wage such a war, with its inevitable and terrible consequences, are committing a crime in so doing."

In 1945, the United Nations Charter, Article 2 Clause 4, reiterated the principles of the KelloggBriand Pact, stating, "All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state." Article 39 established the authority of the Security Council to "determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression" and to "decide what measures shall be taken."

The U.S. Supreme Court was asked in Mora v. McNamara (1967) to rule on the case of a conscientious objector who claimed that the U.S. war against Vietnam was an illegal war of aggression. In this case, the court cited only the Kellogg-Briand Pact, Article 39 of the UN Charter, and the London Treaty (which established the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal) as the relevant body of international law regarding cases of aggressive war, so it is reasonable to examine the legitimacy of the war in Iraq based on those same treaties.

<snip>
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Since Pakistan is well know for its freedom of the press
unlike here in America, where newspapers print only what the government allows or manipulates them to print - I have no problem believing this story.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, it is a drag living in a country that doesn't have a free press -
as the reporters and journalist who contributed their experiences to the book "Into the Buzzsaw:Leading Journalists Expose the Myth of a Free Press" found out the hard way.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Do they specifically talk about how Pakistan is a shining beacon
of press freedom? BTW - I share your jaundiced view of the American press. I don't share your apparent favorable view of the Pakistani press. There is something about the combination of dictators and religious fundamentalism that send up red flags. You know as well as I do that powerful factions within the Pakistani government support the Taliban - what if they are the "Pakistani authorities" quoted in the OP? What if the story in the OP is simply one factions attempt to use the newspaper to influence internal Pakistani politics?

Just because it coincides with your world view does not mean it is true.
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