Is it wrong to identify someone as "Black" when describing the person?

[trumad]

Honestly I hear it all the time---and from people who really don't have a racist bone in their body.

Kids for instance--- My kids, my kids friends, when talking of other friends or acquaintances say things like "it's that Black dude, right? Some of my kids best friends are African-American and Jamaican, and they even use the term, "Black" to describe other friends.

I admit I cringe a bit when they describe others by color---but I really don't think they mean it in a bad way.

[loyalkydem]

1. Don't sweat it

People call me Black all the time when they refer to my race. The only time I ever hear African-American is from those politically correct crowd. The only time you should be afraid is if you call someone by the n word

[onehandle]

4. That's what I see here in Atlanta.

Oddly, when I refer to black people in front of them I say black.

When I am around other white people, I say African-American. Probably because I have been involved in managing a lot of corporate diversity programs where people are reduced to subjects.

[marmar]

5. I'm assuming the point is using a race identifier when seemingly not essential to the discussion....

...... I was talking to someone yesterday who was telling me about how long she had to wait for a clerk to come to the register at Macy's, and she said that she and the Chinese woman behind her were getting really tired of waiting. Well, there was no point in mentioning the fact that the woman was Chinese.....except to tell me that the woman was Chinese. The woman's ethnic background had no significance on this situation, so why point out that she was Chinese?

[trumad]

Good post

I think you hit it right on the head.

[drm604]

30. That kind of usage makes me cringe.

I assumed that the OP was talking about using "black" to identify who they were talking about, which is acceptable depending on the context. Using it unnecessarily makes me cringe.

I have a family member who used to do that in the past. She's been corrected on this enough times that she's changed her behavior. However it's obvious that she doesn't understand, because now she prefaces any mention of a person's race with something like "I don't mean anything by it but she's black". She doesn't seem to be able to distinguish between proper and improper usage so she assumes that she'll be criticized for any usage.

What really angers me is when I hear something like "she's black, but she's very nice" or even worse "she's black but she's very clean" from someone who believes they're paying a compliment.

[auburnblu]

77. Agree that is bad

Race is too often brought into the conversation. This always aggravates me.

But it seemed like the original poster was focusing on is it really sensitive to say Black and not always use African-American.

[misanthrope]

78. That has driven me NUTS for years...

...And I finally grew so exasperated, I started asking about it: "What does him being white have to do with that?" "Why does it matter if she was black?"

People are dumbfounded when you call it to their attention. Some are reflexively defensive. Others are more intellectually curious and ponder it for a while.

Context is everything.

[drm604]

2. I think that if they're using it simply to identify the person then it's probably okay.

If they're using it like "that blond guy" or "that redheaded girl" or "that tall guy" then I can't see where it's a problem. It's simply using a physical characteristic to identify who they're talking about. Of course, that's just the opinion of a middle-aged white dude.

[barbtries]

3. when i object to it is when it is unnecessary

i'll give you an example. i was walking down by the lake and struck up a conversation with a man. seemed to be a very nice man. we got to talking about cases by the lake where women were accosted and/or attacked while they were running or walking. and he says, "there was one lady walking down here, and a black guy was hiding in the bushes...."

see what i mean? that was the end of the conversation for me. if he had said african american i would have been just as offended. but just used as a descriptor, when necessary - no problem.

[vadawg]

7. no problem with him giving the description of someone acting suspicious

i guess you would prefer if he didnt give the description of the black guy hiding in the bushes, it always amazes me that people get offended when someone is giving a description and uses race.

[marmar]

9. Unless he was reporting it to the police, why would it be so important to point out race?

:shrug:

[vadawg]

12. i guess there must be something different about you, if you never use sex, race etc as descriptors

in conversation. people will use descriptors all the time or do you always say person no matter what sex or race the person is.

[marmar]

17. I guess not.....I don't feel the need to identify race unless it has some bearing on the discussion.

And secondly, I don't think that's true. If one white guy is talking to another white guy about something another white guy did that had nothing to do with the fact that he was white, is he going to describe him as "this white guy"?

:shrug:

[barbtries]

10. all he had to say that there was a man in the bushes

the color of the man was immaterial. and yes i was offended. people betray their racism. do you honestly think he would have said, "there was a white guy hiding in the bushes"?

[vadawg]

11. yeah there was a man hiding in the bushes, and yes he would have said a white guy, or fat guy

people when describing someone always use the most prominent feature whether thats race, weight, sex etc, i dont see why your not getting upset over him saying it was a man, isnt that overtly sexist.

[barbtries]

13. ya right

you're being deliberately obtuse.

[vadawg]

15. no i think you are making a mountain outta molehill, or you dont get to talk to people a lot

or you are deliberatly looking for ways to be offended.

[Bandit]

55. What if he said a gay guy?

Unless you are describing a crime scene to a cop or some such placing an adjective in front of a person for no apparent reason is offensive. What purpose does saying the man was a black man have except to make one wary of all black men? There were no other descriptions given. It wasn't short black man with long hair or very tall black man with dredlocks. It was just black man and that my friend is not a description it is a rascist comment.

[dem629]

56. LMAO. It's crazy analogy day!

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dem629]

66. No, haven't seen any here.

[LisaL]

14. It's not immaterial when police is looking for a suspect.

Give me a freaking break.

[barbtries]

19. that wasn't the situation!

of couse it's material when seeking a suspect, and i specifically stated that i don't find that offensive. jeezus

[petronius]

67. Had I been in that situation, I would have wanted as complete a description as possible,

and would have requested more details rather than ending the conversation. If there were ongoing attacks in a place I frequent, I'd want to keep my eyes open...

[Raineyb]

61. They weren't talking to the cops

Your comment is really rather pointless in this situation.

[Matariki]

70. But presumably they were talking to someone who lived in the neighborhood?

If there were attacks in the park by my house I'm sure I'd want to hear detailed descriptions of people doing suspicious things like hiding in the bushes. Probably all my neighbors would be exchanging information.

[dem629]

18. OK, so you were offended. But that doesn't make it wrong....

it only means you're easily offended or looking for something to offended about.

[marmar]

22. "it only means you're easily offended or looking for something to offended about"

Umm, that's a matter of perspective. I don't know that you should be the arbiter of what people should or shouldn't find offensive, n'est-ce pas?

[dem629]

26. Of course it's a matter of perspective.

And my view is that this person is easily offended or looking for something to be offended about.

[barbtries]

23. BULLshit.

that is all.

[dem629]

27. Good one.

[doctor jazz]

54. He certainly would have in many neighborhoods.

:shrug:

[Coyote_Bandit]

35. You are taking offense at what

is a very important and relevant part of a physical description for whoever is investigating the offense.

As a citizen and potential victim I believe that information is also relevant knowledge to me.

I've little tolerance for bigots but I do not believe using a physical description of someone who committed a crime - including the offenders race - is a form of bigotry.

Including racial information in an offenders description is important to protecting others from suspicion. If you know that an offender was a 5'8" 160 lb. man having certain racial characteristics then there is reason to remove other 5'8" 160 lb men who do not share those racial characteristics from suspicion.

Same is true if you know the offender was male instead of female. But you were not offended that the man with whom you were conversing described a MAN hiding in the bushes.

Matter of fact, you described a conversation with a man. By your own standards that description just might reflect gender bias.

[marmar]

38. The situation described in the OP has nothing to do with the victim of a crime....

.....or any other situation when identifying someone's race is important. It's about the causual, pointless use of race.

[dem629]

41. They were responding to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5433599&mesg_id=5433627

That's one of the dumbest posts I've seen on here in a while.

[Coyote_Bandit]

44. I was responding to post 3

where there was a comment about "a black man hiding in the bushes." Guess you missed that?

If there is somebody hiding in the bushes attacking walkers and joggers in the park then I damn well want to know if the attacker is male or female and if there are relevant identifiers - including racial identifiers. As someone who regularly walks and jogs in the park that information is important to me - and it is also important to investigators.

Such information is not a casual pointless use of race.

[barbtries]

59. please, give me a break

we were not investigating a crime. we were chatting. read first, then comment.

[Coyote_Bandit]

68. I did

Apparently you still have not read post 3 even though I specifically pointed out that was what I was responding to...or else you are unwilling to acknowledge that physical characteristics are indeed relevant in identifying offenders.....Color me unimpressed. I don't think you'll be invited to my next dinner party.

[Matariki]

69. Was he describing a current problem - women being accosted by the lake?

The police hadn't caught the guy yet? Or was he telling you something that happened in the past and there was no longer any danger for women in the neighborhood?

If it was a current problem, then giving a detailed description of someone engaging in suspicious activity (hiding in the bushes) seems relevant - you'd want that information circulating in the neighborhood.

If it was a past event then I think you're right, the motives for describing the guy's race sound racist.

[barbtries]

79. in the past

years past. thank you

[RC]

6. It depends. Are they?

Skin color is just an easy identifier in our "White Ruling Class" society. Ideally, anyone, no matter race, color, or nationality should be identified by their jobs, accomplishments, whatever. But we identify any non WASP by their nationality or race, even our own aboriginals. I don't really understand it either.
And if they are women, we have to mention what they are wearing in addition. Why?

[vadawg]

8. yeah i can see that working, "im in pursuit of a 6 foot male accountant"

:who git exeptional scores in his SAt's, and makes a great chilli" race is a good descriptor when describing people and the reason it is used is that it works.

[marmar]

20. Huh?

Sincerely, :wtf:

[vadawg]

24. lol the above post says why cant we describe people by achievments etc

i was just demonstrating why race is used, it works so much better.

[tekisui]

74. Do you say the white guy?

Or only to distinguish the black ones?

[empyreanisles]

16. No, it's not wrong.

I'm black. I've got no problem with it.

[dem629]

21. No.

Conversely, no one objects when declaring someone the "first black male/female to (insert some achievement here)."

[marmar]

25. Completely different situation.....and an intellectually dishonest argument.

n/t

[dem629]

28. Why? The objection is the use of race as a descriptor, isn't it?

Why are some people fine with it when pointing out an accomplishment but not something bad?

[marmar]

31. ....in situations when there is seemingly no reason to use it.

Obviously, if someone was the first African-American president or Latino attorney general or Asian American governor, there's significance to it - it's history.
If you were at the grocery store talking to someone about the weather, and pointed out that you were talking to a Latino guy, or a black guy or an Asian guy about the weather......what's the point of pointing out the race of the person you were talking with? To say, "Look, I talk to blacks, Latinos and Asians too!" ?

[dem629]

34. It's nothing more than an identifier.

I've heard people say they were talking to some guy with a beard, and the beard had nothing to do with the conversation. Same for glasses, a woman pushing a stroller, etc.

People use descriptors. So what?

[marmar]

36. People do lots of things, that doesn't mean they're the right things to do.....

...... In the Pantheon of evils, I don't think the casual use of racial identifiers for no apparent reason ranks that high, but they do make me uncomfortable.
But to each his/her own I suppose.

[dem629]

39. Agreed. If there was an actual harm here, I'd go along with the objection.

But this is just people being overly sensitive for no good reason, imo.

[Raineyb]

62. Well YOU'RE not offended so it's all in her head

How very white of you.

Offended yet?

[dem629]

65. Not at all.

[vadawg]

32. bingo, i think you have it watson, is it only offensive if its used to describe something bad

but to be used when it comes to good stuff. an old analogy is the way sports broadcasters used to say all fans that attend the world cup and behave as being british, but as soon as theres any trouble then label them as scots, welsh etc, and if english fans misbehave then they are called british. It was wierd seeing that happen all the time.

[NashVegas]

29. Not Wrong, If Quick Descriptive Info Is Needed, But

It's very telling about how the user looks at people.

My step-dad never had a mean bone in his body, but when describing his co-workers, it was the "Polish guy," "Frenchie," "black guy," etc.

It made me uncomfortable that peoples' race and ancestry were the first things he reached for to identify someone.

[Rockholm]

33. Nope.

Especially if one were to say..."His neighbor is an African American attorney" when indeed the man was from Haiti. Then he would be black. Or maybe just Haitian (in case he was not a naturalized citizen.

And, what if the person was white, from South Africa and naturalized? Technically, they are African-American.

For ease of use and clarity, I prefer Black and White.

[marmar]

40. self-delete, responded to wrong post

n/t

[quickesst]

37. Obvious idiocy and ignorance....

...when using the term is easy to identify. My opinion is that in your case, the only ones you have to look out for are those gifted liberals who seem to have the ability to find a racist in an empty box. Also easily identifiable by the same traits. Idiocy, and ignorance.Thanks.
quickesst

[marmar]

42. Trumad, just reading some of these responses, it's clear that your point is being missed.....

..... by a few hundred miles. :grouphug:

[trumad]

52. I know---but that's OK....

That's DU for you.

[JanMichael]

43. Is this about the 911 call when the lady described the man in her

house (that she was watching via webcam?)

If it is, I don't think people should be judged by what they say on a 911 recording. She didn't use a racist term, she said "a black man," which...he was.

There was a 911 call in Missouri in the early 90's--- the woman was hysterical, screaming and crying "my baby has been hit by a car! Please hurry!"

Three cop cars, an ambulance, first responders a a fire truck went to the scene...and her baby was a German Shepherd. Were people mad? Yes. But, she was panicked...completely wigged out. That's what Americans do when they wig out; they dial 911...and sometimes use language that wouldn't be acceptable, or would be, in other situations.

[MercutioATC]

45. We live in a predominantly caucasian society.

If I lived in Beijing, I'd probably say "the white guy".

It's a descriptor that's valid in describing a defining difference.

[H2O Man]

46. It depends

on what color they are, in my opinion.

[frustrated_lefty]

47. Try negra on for size.

My paternal grandparents called african americans "negra." I was really troubled by this, took them to task over it in my younger years. Some 20+ years later, I have a few new thoughts. My grandparents didn't mean a damned thing wrong, negative, insulting, or demeaning with that word. I don't use it myself, because, for me, it does carry negative connotations. For them, though, it was the correct noun to use. It was a different time, a different place.

It's taken me some time to realize it, but my grandparents were NOT racists. They pretty much accorded every man a measure of respect, and allowed every man the chance to earn respect beyond that. They used words I wasn't fond of, but there was not a drop of hate or derision in those words. The sky is blue, the grass is green, and a "negra" is black. To them, my grandparents, this was the way god made things, and you don't go questioning god.

I understand the drive to be pc. Ask yourself, is it insulting to call someone "white?"

Rather than focusing on our words, I think we would do more good in the world by focusing on our intent behind the words.

[Justyce]

48. If a black family was talking about their white neighbor & referred

to him as such, would you think that's racist? I think this is silly.

[TexasObserver]

49. No. The point of describing a person is to identify him or her.

If you are talking about a classmate, or someone from work, or from some social group, the features which set them apart are the most likely candidates for mention when identifying the person.

"Black," "Asian," "Hispanic," "red headed," "really tall," "really short," "in the wheelchair," "really thin" - these are all readily understandable terms used to narrow the scope of the pool of persons described.

If I'm telling a story and someone says "now which guy is he?" a good answer might be "he's the black guy, real short." If there is but one black guy who is really short in the pool of possible persons, that description quickly lets the listener know the person I'm describing.

Our kids feel more free about using such descriptive terms because they live in a world that is less sensitive about these words, because there is less prejudice and guilt about the use of such terms.

[H2O Man]

51. Taking that one step further,

it is probably especially important to provide an accurate description when calling to report a home burglary. Some DUers may not realize this. The recent example that is so troubling to some involves, by coincidence, a woman calling the police, and describing a suspect.

If the police had not been fast enough to catch the criminals in the home, it would not have bee helpful if the woman had described the burglars as "three white girls." It would have been satisfying to some of our DU friends, but confusing to the police.

[keep_it_real]

50. A person's color can be descriptive

[salguine]

53. Without exception, every one of my black friends refer to themselves as "black".

[sammythecat]

57. It should be obvious that it depends on the situation

The county I live in has 23,512 people, with 134 African Americans, 98 of Asian descent, and several thousand Amish people. If I was talking to an acquaintance about someone hiding in the bushes I seriously doubt I'd bother mentioning if the person was white or male. I would, however, mention if he was young or old, or had one arm or blue hair or was wearing a suit. If he was black, Asian, or Amish, I'd mention that fact because they're identifying characteristics in an area that is overwhelmingly white. If I was in Nigeria or Vietnam, white would be an identifier and mentioning if the person was black or Asian would be superfluous in a casual description.

Like I said, I think this should be common sense to anyone giving the subject a little thought.

It also depends on where the speaker is "coming from". It's usually pretty easy to tell if someone is using an identifying characteristic in a bigoted way.

[kentuck]

60. If a green Martian breaks into your home...

and the cops ask for a description, what do you say?

[SidDithers]

64. My kids will sometimes say "that person with the dark skin"...

just as they would say "that person with the blonde hair" or "that person with the red jacket".

There's absolutely no value judgement attached to the description. To them, it's a characteristic and nothing more.

Sid

Edit: "Value judgement" probably isn't the right wording. Connotation? Inference maybe?

[BlooInBloo]

71. (facepalm)

EDIT: Just another mendacious attempt by white folks to whine about how HARD it is for us poor, well-meaning white people to know whether or not something will offend those oh-so-sensitive black(!) folks.

[omega minimo]

73. that's true and it's also true that it is awkward

and like H20 Man says, "it depends." :hi:

[Matariki]

72. People can call themselves what they like, but I wish our culture didn't use 'black' & 'white'

Maybe I'm superstitious about language but it seems to perpetuate an idea of opposition. And both words are loaded in our language with certain moral ideas, you know, the black hats and the white hats and all that.

Maybe 'brown' & 'beige'?

I call myself 'caucasian' to circumvent the terminology of opposites, and I have some asian genes - but mostly 'cauc', lol.

[sampsonblk]

75. As with most things, it depends

Most of the time, the answer is no.

[auburnblu]

76. Do you cringe if someone is referred to as White?

In the U.S. the pc thing is to say African-American. Even if it is someone from Haiti or Kenya visiting the U.S. For some referring to someone of African descent as Black is not the preferred way to go, I think similar to how some view referring to someone from Mexico as Mexican. That sometimes can be considered offensive.

I think most people when they refer to someone as Black or Mexican are not being racist, they simply don't have time in their lives to focus on being pc 100% of the time. Listen to Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, sometimes they will shift between saying Black and African-American.

And referring to Whites as caucasians all the time is not something I see too often.

[treestar]

80. Black and white were the PC terms when I was young, and so I have to

think to change it.

I (white) was talking to a black lady - oops, African American lady - in the steam room at the gym. We were talking about employees of the gym. She described one of them as a "white guy" and a few other characteristics.

I thought it was interesting somehow. Like she included me as being black for that purpose. I think all races just notice that as a characteristic of another person first where the person is of a difference race. Really someday we just have to realize that we are only referring to it as a physical characteristic and no put down is intended.

[mudesi]

81. How Else Can You Describe Someone?

[ecstatic]

82. depends on the context

If used to distinguish someone from a crowd, then I don't see a problem. If used in a negative, derogatory way then that's another story.

[Hello_Kitty]

83. If it's not relevant to the topic it is.

I make a conscious effort not to do it.