You are being lied to about pirates

[Phred42]

You are being lied to about pirates
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html

Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling

Who imagined that in 2009, the world’s governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy – backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the US to China – is sailing into Somalian waters to take on men we still picture as parrot-on-the-shoulder pantomime villains. They will soon be fighting Somalian ships and even chasing the pirates onto land, into one of the most broken countries on earth. But behind the arrr-me-hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labeling as “one of the great menaces of our times” have an extraordinary story to tell – and some justice on their side.

Pirates have never been quite who we think they are. In the “golden age of piracy” – from 1650 to 1730 – the idea of the pirate as the senseless, savage Bluebeard that lingers today was created by the British government in a great propaganda heave. Many ordinary people believed it was false: pirates were often saved from the gallows by supportive crowds. Why? What did they see that we can’t? In his book Villains Of All Nations, the historian Marcus Rediker pores through the evidence.

If you became a merchant or navy sailor then – plucked from the docks of London’s East End, young and hungry – you ended up in a floating wooden Hell. You worked all hours on a cramped, half-starved ship, and if you slacked off, the all-powerful captain would whip you with the Cat O’ Nine Tails. If you slacked often, you could be thrown overboard. And at the end of months or years of this, you were often cheated of your wages.

[Gman]

1. "pores through the evidence"

Lost me there. It is a far fetched story anyway. That did it.

[Fridays Child]

8. "...pores through the evidence?"

What's wrong with that?

Anyway, if companies are dumping waste off Somalia's coast and overfishing the waters, they should be investigated and punished.

[anigbrowl]

24. You pore over something, not through it.

Meantime, the guys who attacked this ship did speak directly to the media. And they didn't mention anything about being environmental crusaders. This is not say there are no other aspects to the overall situation besides the obvious hijack/money one...but these guys were in it for the money.

I don't feel 'lied to' in the least. Why do people expect the daily headline news - and especially the TV news - to be anything but shallow? Most people don't have the patience to read some high-detail newspaper like the NYT or the WSJ, where the more complex historic, social and economic issues are acknowledged.

[Fridays Child]

26. "Pored through" has passed into usage.

Language is fluid. See post #13 and Google "pored through."

And the author did not suggest that the pirates who attacked the Maersk Alabama were environmental crusaders. The article was about a broader view of pirates, which, while acknowledging that some are "gangsters," suggests that the motives of others could be misunderstood.

You may not feel lied to because, like many DUers, you're not content to pick only the low-hanging fruit from the news tree. But for those who can't, or choose not to, stretch their arms, the proverbial devil remains in the details. Most of the mainstream media regularly perpetrate lies of omission, when they present information devoid of meaningful context--particularly when they're aware of how that information will feed the fires of prevailing assumptions. The practice is a hallmark of propagandism.

[wordpix]

61. that's "pour through" and "pore over" in my book

[Fridays Child]

71. Uh, okay.

[GiveMeFreedom]

96. I'll just pour myself another drink and read the rest of the rable. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Pick it up again:

Poring over “Pore” and “Pour”

Some confusion appears to exist regarding the use of pour and pore.

Charlie complains that he has to pour through stacks of badly-written letters to the editor every day.

In this context the word should be pore. The usual idiom is “to pore over.” Apparently the preposition “through” has entered into use, as in the above quotation, and as in this headline in the New York Times:

Teachers Pore Through Stacks Of Possibilities

The verb pore, with the meaning “examine closely,” may derive from two Old English words, a verb, spyrian, meaning “to investigate, examine,” and a noun, spor, meaning “a trace, vestige.”

The noun pore, meaning “an opening in the skin,” is not related to the verb in the expression “to pore over.” The noun comes from a Greek word meaning “a passageway.”

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/poring-over-pore-and-pour/

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pore

[Gman]

23. Thanks! I stand a bit more literate than I was a few moments ago!

[Ticonderoga]

121. Poring over “Pore” and “Pour”

and "por favor".

[starroute]

14. The real problem is he confused Bluebeard and Blackbeard

Aside from that, it's a pretty solid story. And yes, the pirates (along with the Indians and the Freemasons) really did set the pattern for American democracy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebeard

Bluebeard is the title character in a famous fairy tale about a violent nobleman and his curious wife. It appeared in Charles Perrault's Les Contes de ma Mère l'Oye, first published in 1697.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbeard

Edward Thatch or Edward Teach ( c. 1680 – November 22, 1718), better known as Blackbeard, was a notorious English pirate in the Caribbean Sea and western Atlantic during the early 18th century, a period referred to as the Golden Age of Piracy.

[Mike Daniels]

163. So pressing sailors of captured vessels into service is democracy?

Threatening to kill captives is democracy?

Give it a rest. This article is one of the most poorly researched pieces of crap when it comes to its defense of "golden age" pirates. Yeah, there was a democracy of sorts on pirate ships but the pirates didn't grant the same courtesies to the passengers or officers of captured vessels.

As far as slaves were concerned slaves were more likely sold for the pirate's profit or marooned than to be liberated. Exceptions were made for those who knew their way around a ship but pirates weren't going to keep deadwood on board.

[AngryAmish]

165. Cicero and Cincinatus set the pattern

grow up

[Orwellian_Ghost]

2. K&R

[Occam Bandage]

3. Yes, pirates are clearly just eco-crusaders.

That is why, instead of demanding cash ransoms, they're demanding stricter dumping regulations. Oh, no, wait, they're just in it for the coin. The fact that Western activities have made piracy more profitable than fishing does not mean that pirates are a praiseworthy lot.

[arcadian]

6. Neither does it deserve the attention being focused on it by the media.

The Maersk 'Alabama' had a crew of 20 and 1 man was taken hostage. Please. More hyper-reality from those who spoon feed this crap to the masses.

[MADem]

9. You know, this HAS gotten attention in the media in the rest of the world.

I've been aware of this practice for well over a decade. But then, I wasn't living in the US.

The US media is rather late to the party on this matter.

[TreasonousBastard]

74. I've known about it for a while, too, and I live here...

it was brought up when the piracy was becoming a major issue.

But, these are two entirely different stories that just happen to be marginally related-- the pirates are not Greenpeace.

[anigbrowl]

25. Here, I've got just what you need

[Enthusiast]

97. Clearly the RW MSM wanted to blame

President Obama. They were licking their lips. Wolf Blitzer was near orgasm. Morning Joe will say the captain was rescued 'despite' President Obama, or something derogatory.

[NoSheep]

91. What would you do?

[HEyHEY]

113. Well, killing people that have never done a thing to me wouldn't be an option

[Uben]

4. Illegal dumping and fishing......

...Then why aren't they hijacking the ones doing the illegal dumping and fishing instead of cargo ships full of goods? Sounds like hoodlums to me. It sure as heck quacks like a duck!

[depakid]

43. So they're dumping highly toxic material into the waters- and then overfishing there?

Bit of a stretch- though surely something one ought to be able to find evidence of.

[notadmblnd]

5. the Seattle underground was infamous for imprisoning men and

enslaving them on corporate ships. They would kidnap their victims after they got drunk in local bars. There were actually hidden passages under the inns and taverns. Some of them had a drop door in the floors where they stowed the men until they were enslaved and shipped out. When the men woke up, minus their shoes... they found they could not escape because the tunnel floors were lined with glass. The kidnappers would just follow the trail of blood and re-capture their victim(s).

[pengillian101]

66. Yes, I recall learning that about Seattle.

When I lived there I learned some of its history. The underground city tour piqued my interest.

What a great city. I loved living there.

[MADem]

7. You are not being lied to about pirates.

These guys were shaking down the vessel in question. They want a ransom. This vessel was NOT dumping "nuclear waste" OR doing any fishing. It was a container ship transiting those littoral waters.

Ask the Yemeni fishermen who have been murdered for their vessels if this is all about environmental issues. Ask the two hundred and fifty suffering bastards these guys are holding hostage.


What a load of tripe. This bullshit "justification"---that EUROPEANS are dumping stuff, and EUROPEANS are taking all their fish (from these nuclear-mercury laden waters, supposedly--when the EU has far better and stricter food testing than we have with our FDA...so they're NOT noticing any of the mercury/nuke/poison crap in this fish???) does not explain why they are shaking down SAUDI tankers for millions at a pop, nabbing container ships and stripping them of their pricy goods, or they are murdering their Yemeni and other neighbors to steal their small little vessels to use as decoys, and they now have made the major mistake of fucking with a US asset.

This doesn't pass the logic test:

Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury – you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Mr Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention."

At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by overexploitation – and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300m-worth of tuna, shrimp, and lobster are being stolen every year by illegal trawlers. The local fishermen are now starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon won't be much fish left in our coastal waters."

This is the context in which the "pirates" have emerged. Somalian fishermen took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least levy a "tax" on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia – and ordinary Somalis agree. The independent Somalian news site WardheerNews found 70 per cent "strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defence".



Dumpers and trawlers my ass--they've been going after Saudi oil tankers and Indian and Gulf State container ships that look like they're loaded to the gills with "good shit." They've murdered innocent fisherman to steal their vessels, and present themselves as innocents themselves in order to gain control of these tankers and other ships.

I call bullshit on this "two wrongs make a right" revisionism. You don't shake down the Saudis because the Italians are fucking with you--you go to the UN and you gripe. You make your case.

Thugs. Bullies. Murderers. There isn't any justification for this kind of behavior, and old Ahmedou can shove that line of crap back where it came from.

[nashville_brook]

10. when it's not all white or all black there comes a great discomfort. i feel your pain.

[MADem]

12. I'm not "in pain" at all. The one who is in pain is that lying bastard occupying a chair at the UN.

And the nitwit who wrote this bullshit article. Talk about a tortured defense! The "two wrongs make a right" approach doesn't work at the kindergarten level. When you throw in murder, hijacking and hostage taking, it definitely doesn't fly.

[doctor jazz]

15. Thanks for not defending the subhuman scum.

:thumbsup:

[Two Americas]

44. "subhuman scum"

Democrats are talking like this now. Democrats.

[MADem]

95. Yeah, these guys are choirboys....

[Two Americas]

173. who is defending them?

I am objecting to the hate fest here. Why is that so difficult for people to understand?

Brutality doe not justify brutality, and brutality starts with the sort hateful and blood thirsty rhetoric people are using here.

There was a time when this idea I am expressing would not have been controversial nor be met with such opposition here.


...

[dionysus]

125. democrats are supposed to like murdering pirates now?

:shrug:

[Two Americas]

172. that is the supposed choice?

Call people subhuman scum, or else you must "like murdering pirates?"

[Arctic Dave]

136. This guy is new. Go figure. He one that likes to lash out like a child.

[get the red out]

150. Yes Democrats

can know criminals when they see them too. Go back and tell Rush that you weren't able to convince real democrats to go along with your play-acting to lead us all into being idiots and loving-up the Somali criminals!

[Two Americas]

171. right

I am not talking about the pirates.

[MedleyMisty]

157. I flinched every time the prisoners were called scum in The Dark Knight

It really made me cheer for the Joker.

For me at least, it's hard to see beyond those terms. My brain tends to tag people with the terms that they use to describe other people, and so if you talk about subhuman scum my immediate emotional reaction is to bring out my rubber and bounce what you say back to you and see you as subhuman scum.

I am trying my best to overcome that emotional reaction, but it's damn hard to see people who don't see others as human as human themselves. I am working on it, but I'm not a saint that can feel empathy for people who seem to be mentally healthy and are in positions of privilege and power who don't feel empathy for others yet.

I've been hanging out on DU for a while and realized quite some time ago that the term "Democrat" is basically meaningless as a label and that you can't generalize about anything based on it. I think that a lot of posters here hold what you and I would think of as conservative views but somehow or other, probably through their parents or friends or, as you argue, their class identification, they came to call themselves Democrats.

It's a lot like Christianity, actually - it's a label that anyone can put on themselves for whatever reason and you can't use it to assume anything about a person. You have to learn their personal language and what they think that word means, because chances are it means something very different to them than it means to you.

[NoSheep]

177. very well said

[Mike Daniels]

52. The idiot who wrote this article needs to research piracy more.

Most of the pirates known through history were every bit the murderous thugs they are portrayed as being. A form of democracy may have existed on the pirate ship but they didn't grant that courtesy to the men they pressed from captured ships, the women they raped and the slaves they resold or marooned.

And none of the major figures of piracy were rescued by crowds. In fact, crowds went out of their way to turn out so they could jeer at the pirates as they were led to the gallows and cheer their execution.

[MADem]

94. +1 nt.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. I agree with you. nt

[KT2000]

56. It is my understanding

that Somalia is a lawless state at this time. The pirates are part of well organized groups that are organized like the mafia. The point of taking ships is to get money. The pirates who come back without money or not enough do not look forward to a long life. The group they belong to wants to control the country and the money is used to that end (weapons) and probably lush life styles for some.

French shipping companies have been paying the ransom for years - to avoid bad press and because their insurance company pays the bill - AIG. It has been a cash cow for the pirates. Maybe now it will end.

[MADem]

158. Not entirely true. They do have UN representation, and they do have

a judicial system. They have a Transitional Federal Government, and they even have a President, now, Sharif Ahmed, and a Prime Minister, Omar Abdirashid Ali Sharmarke. Of course, the actual "reach" of these entities isn't very far--it's really more like a "provincial" government for all the sway it holds outside its own specific field of influence. However, in name, these guys "have the titles."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_Federal_Government

I hate that source, but it's "everything in one place" and thus far, sticking to fact on this issue.

It's not simply the French as much as the Saudis who have been paying out hand over fist for far too long. Two million a pop for a tanker, and very few fellahs with an RPG is all it takes. The insurance companies have had enough, and who can blame them?

The reason the French aren't returning the pirates they've captured to TFG control is because they will be executed in rather short order. The TFG is interested in rejoining the community of nations.

[NoSheep]

86. Is it possible we have a limited capacity to imagine what they have experienced

as the less advantaged subjects in a "come what may' scenario in their waters? Also...I see them as no different from any other entity who just "takes what they want". The United States has been doing it since day one.

I don't advocate what they are doing. Yet I am bothered that it seems all too easy for Americans to dismiss the reality of their situation. Perhaps if that were addressed, they wouldn't resort to these methods.

Why are we always so willing to spend money to kill people that could have been used to educate them?

[MADem]

98. They were hijacking an AID ship--that was bringing aid to SOMALIS.

They hijack tankers, container ships and yachts, and the warlords SELL the stuff and dispense the booty to henchmen. They keep the smaller vessels and use them as motherships to resupply their boston whalers and inflatables.

No "poor Somalis" are benefitting from this shit. Those people would have been denied the aid on that ship had this last 'jack succeeded. It would have been sold over the border for profit for a warlord.

Here are the "less advantaged" at work. They kill fishermen, sailors, little kids, too, if they get in the way. They don't want your stinking education--they want to hijack you and demand a million dollars from your family.

[NoSheep]

167. Ignorant Americas don't seem to want our "stinking education" either.

The pirates are doing with a few dollars what the US does with trillions; with a few men what the US does with thousands. Except when the US does it, it's called "Making the World Safe for Democracy" or "Protecting our Interests in the Region".

When the US wants to break international law, they just stack a justice department, as was the case with the last administration when they wanted to invade a country, torture prisoners and spy on their own citizens.

I am not, to repeat, condoning the pirate's behavior. And I am glad the innocent have been spared (who wouldn't be?)

I just find it hypocritical that some people don't see governments as doing exactly same thing...not realizing this will make the problem worse. I, for one, tend to think in terms of the root causes of a problem in order to try to arrive at a solution. Just being willing to raise hell about it on a message board doesn't do much good

We can stop (and by we, I mean sanctioned government agents) supporting policies that yield the same results over and over leading to scenarios like this, or we could treat world populations better and perhaps be a part of the solution.

Go ahead, insult me for thinking beyond my own personal interests.

Edited to add I doubt very seriously the pirates got the memo as to what was on board the ship.

[MADem]

168. Sorry there Sheepish, the "justice department" ain't the decider on "international law."

Your argument is complete tripe, you know.

You can complain all you'd like about what Bush did, but aside from the fact that this discussion isn't ABOUT him and this conduct PREDATES his presidency (oops), he jumped through the hoops and got the go-ahead to do it. I didn't think his Iraq idea was too hot either, but I am not going to try to stretch, in tortured, ignorant, obtuse fashion, to compare the process he went through, that involved the UN, who weren't terribly questioning, now, were they, to these little shits stealing fishing boats from Yemeni fisherman (who are killed and their bodies flipped over the side) in order to hijack container, tanker and passenger vessels, for the purpose of their PERSONAL enrichment. They aren't sending money to the Somali treasury, you know. They're not funding hospitals and paving roads. They're living large and paying off small time thugs to act as a personal army for them.

It's not an "insult" when I say to you that your argument sucks. Your argument is what it is--a really lousy one.

Somalia has had a functioning government and a UN presence for a few years now. It's not optimal, but it's there. You'd think if these pirates had only "high minded" goals at the forefront, they'd be pushing to join their nation's delegation to the UN. They'd be working to aid in Somalia's effort to rejoin the community of nations.

But no--they 'jacked four more ships today. Poor, downtrodden pirates, my left foot.

[NoSheep]

170. At no point have I presented anything to make you think I am taking up for the pirates.

I am simply saying your obvious venom toward the situation, in my point of view, is hypocritical. I don't need to "know you" in order to read that in your post. You can dismiss my argument as tripe, although I don't think anger such as yours has ever enlightened anyone or resolved much of anything. I believe, if it were immediately apparent to you how much their actions resemble those of your own government's, at almost any point in history, you may not be so quick to be the poster child of condemning them. Big shits are just as guilty as little shits...if not more so...no one could possibly think what they are doing is right....I just don't get your need to go on about it so.

State-sanctioned violence is not by definition more ethical than non state-sanctioned violence. If you agree with that, then you and I agree on this issue. If you don't realize that, it is your argument that is tripe.

Speaking of pretending to know someone, you read an awful lot into my position that you can provide no evidence for from what I have written. I do not think anyone should allow the pirates to do what they are doing. I am glad the crew of the Alabama is safe. I just do not feel these things will be resolved unless developed nations such as ours see our own part in it.

And I have to add, if you don't think the Bush administration's actions were for personal enrichment...his, and the others in his administration, then you are in a serious minority among those walking upright.

And just for the record, where this discussion is concerned, it matters not that you may have served in the military. That has nothing to do with my position. I can't "pretend to know you" as you say, just as I cannot know that your claims as to your own identity are accurate. If somehow your history mattered where my argument is concerned, I would have needed it before the conversation started.

That's all about this from me. Everything you've written indicates we will never agree on this issue.

[varelse]

16. Too bad people are so focused on the Somalian pirates

The fishermen of Somalia need justice, too and help against the international pirates assaulting them off the coast of their own country:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,594457,00.html

[MadMaddie]

17. Agreed the root cause of the problem needs to be fixed

their lively hood has been been destroyed by illegal dumping and illegal fishing.

It does not excuse the Piracy though.

[FloridaJudy]

108. Absolutely!

Sometimes people are attracted to criminal behavior because the alternatives are so few. That doesn't excuse the behavior, or make it any less criminal or hurtful to the victims. It just means that it can't be eliminated by killing or confining the criminals; the same conditions will continue to create more criminals unless they're corrected.

Desperate people will do despicable things. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to get away with it.

[FLAprogressive]

18. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[nichomachus]

20. So, the Boston Tea Party was wrong

Firing in British troops was wrong
Joining the Continental Army was wrong
Slaves running away from their masters in violation of the law were wrong

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[FLAprogressive]

21. so taking people who may not have any direct connection to the dumping hostage is right?

Nice logic.

And those historical events have little to no connection to this either....

[rollingrock]

48. Desperate people don't make the distinction

they see any non-Somalian ship in or around their waters as the enemy.

[Mike Daniels]

53. The ship they captured was 300 miles outside of their territory

They need a new excuse because the fact is most of the ships they captured haven't been remotely near their country's waters.

[rollingrock]

62. Most of the population is on international food aid

when they are lucky enough to get it.

starving people will resort to desperate measures. that's just human nature.

[MADem]

99. The warlords were trying to hijack a ship carrying AID...for SOMALIS. nt

[rollingrock]

101. How would the pirates know that?

even if they were told by the kidnapped crew it was an aid ship, how would they know the crew wasn't lying to them?

[MADem]

104. Maybe they've got a buddy in Kenya who works in port ops.

All you have to do is have access to the port operations schedule, and you know who's coming in and what they're carrying. It's not magic.

[auburnblu]

87. Oh the French sailboat was toxic dumping

European sailboat, that just says toxic dumping. And how clever to have a child on board as cover. "We" at DU are not fooled and neither were the Somalia Volunteer Coast Guard.

[ddeclue]

34. Fact free response...

The British East India Tea Company was a government controlled enterprise.

The British were NOT the innocent party on April 19, 1775 - they were going out after the Americans, not the other way around. It wasn't we're going to the British it was the British are coming...

and the Continental Army didn't in turn attack Italy because the British attacked Americans.

Slaves running away from their masters didn't in turn rob someone else at gun point to make up for their servitude.

Your lack of historical knowledge and logic is astounding.

[Arctic Dave]

140. You forgot the American "pirates" against the Crown.

[kegler14]

146. STRAWMAN ALERT!!!

[slackmaster]

133. That's true, but three do

.

[Ikonoklast]

19. The pirates are using Bushian logic to justify their crimes.

I have no sympathy for criminals using one crime to justify another.

[retread]

22. The British Royal Navy is going to fight piracy? When will we see their ships on

Wall Street?

[Odin2005]

27. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I can't believe what lengths some posters are going to make these thugs look like the good guys. :crazy:

[paulsby]

28. anybody who attacks american interests

must be defended.

they are poor misunderstood eco-liberators!

keeerist!

[Odin2005]

29. It's part of a demented mindset that sees everyting Western as evil.

A mindset that has been popular among the Far Left starting in the 1960s.

[Fire1]

31. True and I'm one of em.

[paulsby]

33. happiness

is living your warm delusion!

[Fire1]

37. How prosaic.

[paulsby]

38. my iambic pentameter is broken, or i would have made it prettier

[Fire1]

39. iow, 'dull'

:boring:

[Lucky Luciano]

63. I always like Ghandi's comments:

What do you think about Western Civilization?

"I think it would be a good idea!"


I disagree with such sentiment, but perhaps someone like you can appreciate it.

[Fire1]

67. I recall that comment and it is and has been most

'appropo,' imo.

[ddeclue]

30. BY YOU - THEY ARE ALL GANGSTERS DOING THIS FOR THE MONEY.

NO pirate has held the crew ransom for an environmental cleanup - this is NOT about the environment - it's about getting rich at the point of a gun - they are no different than Bonnie and Clyde.

[Two Americas]

40. what on earth is the matter with people here?

Would it kill you to read the article and gain some understanding about the conditions under which this siruation has arisen?

Geez we have some angry blood thirsty people here. Didn't we have enough of this bloodlust and militarism during the last administration?


...

[ddeclue]

41. What is the matter with people like you who think I have to agree with your BS disinfo just because

you posted it.

I read it and don't agree with it because it fails basic logic.

:eyes:

[Two Americas]

45. so angry

No one is defending what the pirates did. Is that the only alternative you can imagine to this orgy of hatred and bloodlust you are indulging yourself in?


...

[Tejas]

57. "orgy of hatred and bloodlust " - wow,

you really pulled that out've ddeclue's posts?

Project much do we?

[Two Americas]

64. not on this thread

No, I didn't "pull that out've ddeclue's posts" on this particular thread.

[ButterflyBlood]

78. You seem to be arguing these pirates are really misguided environmentalists or something

In that case, find me a single incident where the pirates demanded that these activities cease instead of ransom. I won't be holding my breath.

The pirates and the companies doing this have the same motivation: money. The end.

[Two Americas]

92. all or nothing

For us or against us. If you don't hate the pirates and celebrate them being killed, you must be loving them. Pick one: Obama or the pirates. It is a big showdown! The forces of good are smiting the forces of evil! Pick a side!

This is getting truly insane.

Anyone objecting to the frenzy of hatred here around this issue must therefore "seem to be arguing these pirates are really misguided environmentalists or something."

I am not talking about the pirates at all. I am talking about people here.


...

[cali]

111. lol you are undoubtedly one of the most rigidly black/white

"thinkers" on DU.

[HEyHEY]

114. or in somali shipping lanes?

[LanternWaste]

174. I think most people...

I think most people (at least on DU) are fully cognizant that poverty breeds crime, and that the best way to combat crime is by combating poverty.

I also think most people realize that each pirate was given a choice-- work a subsistence level plot of land in a violent, war-torn, gang-ravaged region, or turn pirate to send some money back home to the family.

Each pirate made the choice. Their own choice. A choice they themselves knew was fundamentally and morally wrong, regardless of the reasons they may have made it.

Cheering the safe return of the captain isn't bloodthirsty. And for the few actual bloodthirsty posters, there are one hundred who are simply glad that the hostage was rescued.





"Didn't we have enough of this bloodlust and militarism during the last administration...?"
That particular question seems better directed towards the actual transgressors rather than those who are simply happy the hostage was freed.

[Kip Humphrey]

32. Aye mateties. DU pirates agrees! They's be good pirates and they's be bad pirates!

[Smith_3]

35. Ssh. Don't interfere with the national socialst wing's imperialism celebration party.

[leeroysphitz]

36. I knew it was the pirates. Even when it was the terrorists.

Just like I knew it was the bears even when it was the immigrants.

[Two Americas]

42. disgusting, truly disgusting

We certainly have some angry, hateful and blood thirsty people around here. They are just smashing the crap out of those bleeding heart liberals, aren't they, though?

It is quite a spectacle watching so many Democrats morph into doppelgangers of the people who have been in power over the last 8 years.




...

[veganlush]

47. you're right..

...there's a population of bushian "us vs. them" "good vs. evil" types here at DU who thrive best in that simple black and white world. The Somalian situation is more complicated than that, as are ALL things. Of course there are 'pirates' who are taking advantage of the situation for personal gain just as there are those who are trying to bring attention to the dumping and other abuses. Somali is without a strong government presently and human nature, the same human nature that guides some of the 'pirates' is guiding some others to take advantage of Somali's problems are dumping pollutants there and apparently some countries are allowing over-fishing to take place there. If anyone thinks those two activities are at cross-purposes, remember human nature; there are markets for contaminated fish too.

[Lisa0825]

49. Yeah, it stuns me that they are not even able to understand the concept

that it is a complicated situation with many layers of wrongs. To fix it, more is needed than just killing the latest pirate in the scope. We have to do something to address the situation so that the Somali people have something better to support than the pirates. And this is NOT just about doing something "for them." It's about making the waters safer for all international ships. As long as the deeper issues are not addressed, no one there is safe. I can't understand how so many DUers don't get that. I feel like it's an internet "Freaky Friday" and DU and FR have changed places!

[veganlush]

51. thank you...

..for weighing in, your presence is reassuring....:toast:

[NoSheep]

90. no shit.

[tnlefty]

50. Desperate people do desperate things. While I don't condone the

actions of the 'pirates' someone needs to explain to me how people in impoverished countries, with a virtually non existent government are supposed to get the world to pay attention to their plight. As I've understood it, the 'pirates' were seeking ransoms to pay for their activities because the Somali gov't. can't either fund them, nor protect the 12 mile international waters.

People soon forget how the powerful in poor countries will help wealthier countries exploit the citizens of the poorer countries, i.e., blood diamonds, gold, gems, and minerals.

[amyrose2712]

59. +1..

you always say things so well.

[BlooInBloo]

72. Yup.

[leftstreet]

77. Bravo!

:applause:

[Life Long Dem]

46. MSM is protecting big business because oil is involved.

All the toxic waste washing up on shore killing hundreds, while they all starve with the sea being depleted of seafood.

And we sit back going rah rah! get the pirates! And send Obama into this mess to get all tangled up with the hope we can say we told you so. That's so fucked up.

[TK421]

54. Yes, matey....yes

[UTUSN]

55. WHO is buying the ARRRGGGRHHHH crap? I'm calling B.S. n/t

[TK421]

58. see post 54

snicker,snicker.....ARGGGHHHH!!

[muryan]

60. You seriously believe there is anything redeeming about these pirates?

They are heavily involved in drug trafficking, sex trade and other venues of crime. They aren't hijacking ships to stop dumping, it's never part of their demands. They want money or blood will be spilled.

Stop trying to find the diamond in the rough, sometimes its not there.

[get the red out]

105. Oh but if it is another culture

they are pure as the driven snow! Those beautiful non-western cultures need to trade in women and children and drugs, it is their culture and must be preserved!!!!! We are evil! We need to understand the beauty in murder, sex slavery, and the drug trade. Oh we are so short sighted!!!!!

[WilliamPitt]

65. "others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling"

Are they taking hostages at gunpoint?

[opihimoimoi]

68. BULL CRAP on the dumping and trawling as a reason for piracy...they never once demanded

the dumping be stopped or the hostages would be harmed... did they?

I'm w you Will....

The President showed Balls

[Skittles]

69. um.....opi?

male body parts are not required for courage

[opihimoimoi]

70. I didn say they were MALE Balls....LOL :o)

Its a good day...even for Argentina

[Two Americas]

79. no one claimed that

Some tried to offer some context for the problems there. They were not defending the pirates nor attacking the president.

[Dover]

80. Their government is looking the other way as the illegal dumping goes on.

And we all know how powerless a feeling it is to have a corrupt government and their corporate ties who are doing lots of bad things under the table at everyone else's expense, not properly responding to devastating and illegal activities or protecting the environment. Sound familiar? And what if this was happening off our own coastline? Sometimes people have to take things into their own hands and fend for themselves. And then pretty soon it becomes a way of life. These days it's very difficult to distinguish who the real 'pirates' are. Corruption and desperate people....

So lots of money changing hands under the table. And meanwhile the dumping off Somalia's coast, which has been going on for decades now, has led to the destruction of their fishing industry and has caused extensive health problems as you might imagine. And of course the dumping issue has pretty much been scrubbed from the news ...doesn't exist. It's all the work of those boogiemen, terrorists, pirates and that's the whole story, or at least all you need to know.

If we can't find a moral center within us to stand upon regarding this travesty, we should at least ALL be concerned about this for selfish reasons because foreign vessels ARE still fishing those waters and then selling their toxic fish to worldwide markets. And we can ill afford to further contaminate the oceans with nuclear waste. BUT as long as we stay fixated on the good guy vs. bad guy pirate story, the much bigger issue gets lost or dilluted.

[NoSheep]

88. How would we know what they demanded? Who would pay any attention?

Through what news organization could their demands be heard? What powerful corporation could be made to stop their practices that may be causing these events?

[MADem]

100. They've got a big fat high living rep at the UN--read the OP. NT

[bird gerhl]

73. Thucydides approved of pirates

[Dover]

75. Some older DU links on this and more info:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=181834&mesg_id=181834


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x413790

[ButterflyBlood]

76. And if all these activities ended tommorow, I'm sure the pirates would cease too

Right... :eyes:

It's possible to criticize such actions without glorifying common criminals who happen to be against those carrying them out for exactly the same reason this occurs: monetary gain. Does anyone consider brutal drug lords to be heroes of their oppressed nations against imperialism?

[bjobotts]

81. Pirates could attack foreign supply ships whereas nations couldn't.

[bjobotts]

82. Somalia and the US are only countries that refuse to sign the protect Childrens rights act at UN

[bjobotts]

83. A failed state having no navy to stop foreign fishermen from stealing all the fish in their waters

[bjobotts]

84. No way to stop polluters dumping hazardous waste into their waters

[bjobotts]

85. A starving and sick failed state where opiracy became their only revenue and defense

[NoSheep]

89. a person who gets it

[Tarc]

120. Neither of you twits "get it", I'm afraid

No matter how dire one's situation is, kidnapping for ransom is not an acceptable solution.

[NoSheep]

179. This twit did not say it was a solution.

[Norrin Radd]

93. ....

[WeDidIt]

102. I'm not buying it

I think it's bullshit to attribute any altruistic motivations to common thugs.

They're criminals, noithing more nothing less. These bastards got what they asked for.

[get the red out]

106. I can't believe you!

You are someone with the sense to walk and chew gum at the same time on DU!!!! I agree with you completely. The pirate-lovers are why Republicans can demonize Democrats as people who care nothing for the innocent and only protect criminals. We have been painted that way for a few decades by the Republicans, and for some it appears to be true.

[WeDidIt]

124. I'm beginning to see what those people say about

"blame America first".

Either that or there are moles stirring shit.

[DevonRex]

130. Yeah, me too. At least now I know it's not just Obama whom they hate.

Apparently they will blame America for any reason, at all times.

[get the red out]

149. Moles maybe

The way people sound, it might be moles. Some people couldn't fit the Limbaugh description of a Democrat any more if they tried!!!! Which makes me wonder!

[Kablooie]

103. At least they didn't lie to me about Blackbeard. He DID have a black beard.

[blindpig]

107. K&R

Thanks for this perfect illustration (however inadvertent) of jingoism. The ruling class is in no danger.....

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do,
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too,
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true,
The Russians shall not have Constantinople.

The more things change the more they remain the same.

[Tarc]

109. Idiotic rubbish that stains the front page of the DU

They are kidnappers. They want money. There is nothing more to it than that.

Arrest them if possible, kill them if not, and save the hostages. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

[baldguy]

110. They're just people trying to survive

While their "government" does noting to protect them, their families or their livelihood. Who've had their natural resources stolen and their fishing grounds poisoned, while the very people committing these crimes are within sight of their homes.

They're just people trying to survive

[Tarc]

119. Are you being intentionally stupid, or just fundamentally naive?

They have kidnapped innocent people, and they need to be held responsible for that.

This sniveling, cowardly excuse-making by people like you makes me want to vomit in my own mouth.

[baldguy]

127. So, enlighten me. What would you do in their situation?

These guys aren't Hollywood pirates - but they aren't bloodthirsty demons who've been ostracized by their society either.

Somalia hasn't had a real govt for 30 yrs. Poverty is epidemic; the only people who have really been able to feed themselves & their families were the fishermen. But now, ships coming from other countries dump toxic waste in some of your fishing grounds, and come and strip the fish from others.

If you had a choice between watching your kid starve to death or doing something to prevent it, what would you do?

[Tarc]

152. Did you ever take any college couses in the basics of debate, or elements of logic?

If so, sue your professor please, as you obviously did not get what your tuition paid for.

[baldguy]

154. I note you didn't answer the question.

Until you walk a mile in their shoes...

[Tarc]

159. I note that your question is an invalid red herring

Keep swinging and missing, chief.

[baldguy]

160. Like the problems in Somalia don't exist.

Or is it that you don't think the Somalis shouldn't be considered human beings?

You're one of the people that woke up on 9/11 and said, "Why did this happen? Why do they hate us?" and bought the Bush Regime's War On Terror® hook, line & sinker.

[Tarc]

161. The *PLONKED* Troll says what?

Welcome to my first Ignore List entry since the primaries, chief.

Now you can gather up your tinfoil hats and your 3rd-grade education and go bug someone else. Buh-bye. :kick:

[baldguy]

162. And you didn't answer the question.

[DevonRex]

132. To me, that post crosses the line from stupid to something else entirely.

[baldguy]

145. Same question: What would you do?

[DevonRex]

143. That is a disgusting thing to say. Goodbye.

[get the red out]

151. SEEK THERAPY!

[Stuckinthebush]

116. This place is becoming crazy town

Jeez...did I just read a recommended post that supports piracy?

Jesus.

[Julius Civitatus]

129. I agree. That article stains The Independent, and DU

First of all, Johann Hari does not offer ANY EVIDENCE to support his claims other than unsubstantiated third party hearsay from a couple of detained pirates.

Second, not a single Somali pirate has mentioned any "eco-friendly" demands when they kidnap people for ransom.

Third, the thought of a trying to turn these thugs into some ecological Robin Hood is sickening, and I think it makes Hari and The Independent look loony!

Fox News will have a field day with this.

[DevonRex]

131. It's still on the front page. And it's horrifically embarrassing to all of us.

Every one of US is now associated with this disgusting OP and the disgusting replies in it, which defend murderers, lament that the poor souls have no other way to make money, and even that they are nothing more than environmentalists trying to keep their ocean fresh and clean.

[Julius Civitatus]

139. Totally agree. Well said - n/t

[DS1]

137. It's DU. I think there's a hidden clause contractually obligating posters to spend 15%

of the time blaming everything on the west.

[redqueen]

141. Yep.

I'm used to seeing such nonsense on the front page of DU though. Nothing new about that.

[slackmaster]

112. The Stupid still runs strong in the UK

:nuke:

[DevonRex]

142. And now we have DUers defending pirates, so teh stupid is running strong here too.

[SlingBlade]

115. New's Flash ..... Pirates are NOT Green !

Go Navy :patriot:

[Javaman]

117. what a completely inane post. nt

[HEyHEY]

118. The article offers no actual proof besides hearsay from the pirates.

As well, I really don't think it's that much of a surprise that these guys are doing this cause they live in a poor country. That said, they attacked a cruise ship with a rocket launcher last year, they're holding 14 ships hostage. What have they actually DONE to prove they are doing all this to end illegal trawling and dumping?

Sad considering how much I like Johann

[stray cat]

122. The Warlords collecting the ransom are environmentalist helping the Somalia people

:sarcasm: And thieves are looking our for your soul to keep you from becoming attached to frivalous things.

[styersc]

123. Idiocy. Green murderers and kidnappers.

You are a genius.

[dysfunctional press]

126. what a total load of CRAP. people are actually buying this tripe...?

:crazy:

if the pirates are such dedicated environmentalists- why haven't they expressed that aspect of it in any of their hijackings?

their demands are always about money

they're in it for the cash, pure and simple. it's a LOT more profitable than fishing or farming.

[Julius Civitatus]

128. NO, WE ARE NOT! This is a poor excuse for a thread

I'm dumbfounded at this execrable article, but more about the fact that it got so many recommendations.
I've known about this issue for a long time, as Somali pirates have been kidnapping and pillaging ships from every nation on earth for a decade or more. This is the first time I see an article glorifying these GANGSTERS as some sort of eco-friendly heroes. Fuck that!

Seriously, this detracts from every effort to put ecological issues at the forefront, and gives AMMUNITION to the Fox News crew to bring out that old "eco-terrorism" canard. It is embarrassing, it is ridiculous, and it is offensive.

[kpominville]

144. You missed the point completely

The fact is that there are perfectly understandable reasons why that piracy started and even if we killed every "pirate" living today, if they fail to stop the illegal dumping and illegal fishing then the PIRACY WILL START AGAIN!!!

We have to stop looking at the short term and start looking at the long term in situations like this so we can not only stop what is happening now but prevent it from starting again in the future.

[swishyfeet]

134. BBC: Somali pirates living the high life

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7650415.stm

"They have money; they have power and they are getting stronger by the day," says Abdi Farah Juha who lives in the regional capital, Garowe.

"They wed the most beautiful girls; they are building big houses; they have new cars; new guns," he says.
"Piracy in many ways is socially acceptable. They have become fashionable."

Most of them are aged between 20 and 35 years - in it for the money.

[slackmaster]

135. Brave freedom fighters indeed

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

138. Poor, misunderstood pirates.

Hardly anyone ever observes that they only kill the ones they can't ransom.

"Hardly anyone"... except us enlightened folks. We know that they're only murderous thugs because they're looking for a better life for their countrymen.

[Duval]

147. I thank you for

bringing the "other part" of the truth that we have not read in our news, and probably will not, unless we hear it from KO. It took courage to post and after reading Hari's article in The Independent I wondered if we would hear the whole story about the pirates/terrorists. Thanks, again. OTOH, I am so glad the Capt is safe and I believe the USA did the right thing.

[kiva]

148. Yes, it's here too.

[RoadRage]

153. This is how democrats get labled as "PANSYS"..

Sometimes there are grey areas.. but this is not one of them.

These "Pirates" took ahold of a large ship, used AK-47's and other weapons, and took several American's hostage. The only thing the people on this boat were doing was taking AID to ravaged countries much like their own.

These Pirates deserve no sympathy. They should take the effort to unify & form a government in their own tatterd nation, and stop terrorizing innocent sailors who are only trying to get goods from point A to point B.

Showing sympathy for thugs like this only lessons the image of liberals, and it makes it much more difficult to have our voices heard where there truly are citizens that need "defending".

[get the red out]

155. I think it is time

for real Democrats, the ones who really give a damn about this country and this world rather than the "flavor of the week" downtrodden criminal "who hate the evil west so they must be the good guys,we will just ignore the murder part", to retake DU and retake the Democratic party if it comes to it.

[RoadRage]

156. Sign me up for that group please! ;)

I have sympathy for many people.. and to any Republican i'm a pathetic loser who see's the good in any. But in reality I draw a line in the sand.. and showing sympathy for these types of people does no one any good. The Captian & his crew on that boat are the true hero's.. and they deserve every American's energy. No one else!

:)

[Tarc]

164. The Sheehan/McKinney wing of the party needs to be booted

Apologies if you're a supporter of either of those types but IMO that is the type of "Democrat" that we can do without. This "sympathy for the poor pirates" thing going on here...especially clowns like "baldguy" who just made my ignore list...is just plain ridiculous.

[baldguy]

169. The ones doing damage to this country are the DLCers, the corporatists and the other DINOs.

And calling people out is against DU rules.

[Blue-Jay]

166. Yarrr.

OP is a load of crap.

Yarrr.

[amborin]

175. agree: pirates are opposing fisheries' extinction by over-fishing G-7 nations

[Orwellian_Ghost]

176. A brief history of Somalia

Like virtually every modern African state Somalia's history is the history of imperialism itself.

Though long the home of many independent and indigenous nations and cultures, beginning in the 1880s the horn of East Africa, of which Somalia is part, was divided up by France, Britain and Italy. They were also joined in this carving up of what is today Somalia by Ethiopia, an independent African nation which was spared conquest by aping the European imperialists.

France took the port of Djibouti, which today is a separate nation by that same name. Italy seized Mogadishu and the coastal areas around it. The British had earlier taken the port of Berbera, which separates DJibouti and Mogadishu. Ethopia took the inland region of Ogaden.

The proximity to the Suez Canal was the prime motivating factor for the carve-up of Somalia by the imperialists. The lives, history, culture and basic democratic rights of the people inhabiting this region were of no interests to the colonialists.

<snip>

http://www.geocities.com/arcticreds/somalia.html

[NoSheep]

180. I can only assume the blood thirsty here are not interested in history. Cause and effect is a false

concept, y'know, as is evolution, homosexuality and women who can still be women and choose not to have children. Long live the Tooth Fairy, abstinence as a birth control method and this "democracy" we live in. Long live the "American Family" and the American Dream, for that matter.

That said, thanks for your post. Maybe someone here who needs to will bother to read it.

[WestSeattle2]

178. I have no sympathy for anyone who targets innocents. eom

[ASUliberal]

181. Then you are a moron

You have no sympathy for someone who targets innocent people?

What about the mother that steals bread from an innocent store clerk because she needs it for her children?

The guy that robbed a bank to help his family survive? (true story in AZ ended up crashing head on into another car at 100 mph during the police chase after the robbery)

I have sympathy for these people driven so far to the edge that they are willing to do deplorable things. Condemn the act, but don't forsake the person.

[Tarc]

182. Your infantile insults and weak analogy-making skills aren't swaying anyone, sport

They are criminals who took a man hostage, and refused negotiations to end the matter peacefully. It is a shame that it had to end the way it did, but I'd much rather have the innocent captain make it through the ordeal alive, and if that can only happen with the death of the criminals, then so be it.

So please, stop mewling.

[ASUliberal]

183. No see here is the thing...

I'm not being infantile. You are being a blowhard on a subject that you clearly have very little knowledge over.


You think it's proper to just declare that you have no sympathy for those targeting innocent victims? That completely contradicts the idea of a progressive system of laws and it makes you look like a hardened prick. May I also add that it sounds a lot of like the rhetoric coming out of the far right.

Go speak to anyone who knows a bit about African politics and they will kindly explain to you why you are wrong.

You say you have no sympathy for the pirates. Yet you apparently think it's a shame that they were all killed and the hostage saved? Which one is it Tarc? You can't have it both ways.

[Tarc]

185. /yawn

Criminals.

Committed a crime.

Negotiations failed.

Hostage.

Criminals had to be killed to save the hostage.


Connect-the-dots seems to be something you could manage, on a good day. Use a pencil in case you need to erase, though.

[ASUliberal]

187. Oh how quickly

the ignorant are to polarize dynamic situations.

Do the world a favor and do some damn research before you draw such drastic and ill-willed conclusions.

[Tarc]

189. More research won't make you less of a spineless coward

The military did what it had to do, actions directed by and condoned by Obama, who handled the situation quite well.

Thankfully, most of the comments on this and similar threads have shown some common sense. Yours is a tiny minority of wingnuts who thankfully do not speak for the DU.

I see little need to revisit this topic again, so feel free to get in the proverbial last word; you seem like the type that needs to.

[NorthernSpy]

184. Thank you for posting that article, Phred.

Bless you.

[Tarc]

186. Another sniveling coward?

[NorthernSpy]

188. No, indeedy... I want to shoot MORE people!

I want the Navy to shoot the people who are dumping chemical and nuclear wastes off the coast of Somalia:

Somali fishermen have another problem: toxic waste. Initially dumped on land, toxic waste was increasingly dumped at sea after the collapse of the regime of former President Siad Barre in 1991. Because the country has no coast guard, for the past 20 years the Somali coastline has had no protection against European ships dumping waste at sea. Although hard evidence was rare, there have been periodic and mysterious incidents. In early 2002, tens of thousands of dead fish washed ashore at Merca, south of Mogadishu. The causes remain unclear.

In the spring of 2004, fishermen spotted two large containers floating in the water near Bosaso. Whether they were deliberately tossed overboard or accidentally fell of a container ship in rough seas is unclear. The Indian Ocean tsunami in December 2004, which also reached the African coast, unearthed dozens of containers of toxic waste and deposited the waste along the Somali coast. According to a United Nations report, many coastal residents suffered "acute respiratory infections, heavy coughing, bleeding gums and mouth, abdominal haemorrhages, unusual skin rashes, and even death."

Experts and environmentalists have long been aware of the problem. In 2006, a team of specialists sent to the region to investigate discovered nine toxic waste sites along 700 kilometers (435 miles) of coastline in southern Somalia.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,594457,00.html

[Prometheus Bound]

190. 'Toxic waste' behind Somali piracy

'Toxic waste' behind Somali piracy
Saturday, October 11, 2008
Somali pirates have accused European firms of dumping toxic waste off the Somali coast and are demanding an $8m ransom for the return of a Ukranian ship they captured, saying the money will go towards cleaning up the waste.

The ransom demand is a means of "reacting to the toxic waste that has been continually dumped on the shores of our country for nearly 20 years", Januna Ali Jama, a spokesman for the pirates, based in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland, said.

"The Somali coastline has been destroyed, and we believe this money is nothing compared to the devastation that we have seen on the seas."

more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html