Here's what you're not thinking in regards to the pirate situation.

[varkam]

Or at least, you don't seem to be - because the only posts that I've seen on the subject are either along the lines of "Good! I hope it hurt! Damn pirates! Go USA! Arrgh!" or "Poor pirates! They didn't need to die!"

First off, the people cheering at the death of the pirates...yeah, it's a little bit cold. Now, before you go into a blind rage and tell me what a tool I am (I already know, you don't need to tell me), read on. They probably had to die - and I don't feel a whole hell of a lot of sympathy for them because, well, they kind of knew what they were getting into. In fact, they might of killed the Captain had they not been killed themselves - so all in all, I think it was probably a good thing that they got shot.

However, I can have sympathy for him just on the base level that they were human beings. I think that violence is always regrettable but sometimes is unavoidable, and this may have been one of those times. While I think we can respect that sometimes violence is a necessary component of life, I don't think we should strive to be cheerleaders for it - regardless of the circumstances.

In other words, can't both propositions be true? Can't we be glad that the Captain got out safe and sound but simultaneously recognize that we shouldn't be creaming collective jeans over the fact that we killed three pirates? It's a little ghoulish.

But that's just my .02.

Okay, flame away! :hi:

[msongs]

1. reasonable response nt

[Renew Deal]

2. I agree

And it would have been slightly better if we got our guy back and the pirates went to jail or whatever. I don't there's a single sane person that wouldn't have preferred that the pirates were arrested or just got away. I think there's also something else going on here. Part of it was political and part of it was nationalistic. The political is that people didn't want Obama to look weak. The nationalistic is that people didn't want the country to look weak. That's partly connected to the political. Also, I think people want to send a VERY strong message to the pirates to stay away from American ships and crews. I know I don't want to go through this shit again. It was bad enough with the odds in the captains favor. Imagine these guys had 21 hostages somewhere in Somalia? Disaster time.

[Cirque du So-What]

3. No flames here

unless you insist upon claiming the pinnacle of moral high ground as that unique, singular individual whose fortitude places you head-and-shoulders above the rest of us mere mortals.

Careful that you don't overdose on moral fiber; it could induce a case of scrupulous diarrhea.

[varkam]

7. Uh, hello? I *do* insist on that.

I am, after all, a member of DU. As a consequence, I am able to judge the souls of people whom I have never met (and even those whom I have never interacted with, but only read about). In fact, I've just been promoted to Corporal in the Keyboard Kommando Corps (I would have said Korps, but that would be a rather unfortunate acronym).


:snicker:

[Cirque du So-What]

14. Touché

All kidding & snark aside, I take no pleasure in the death of any human beings. As despicable as their acts were, I deplore even more the conditions that compelled their turn to piracy in the first place.

[varkam]

16. Indeed.

I think a good phrase is understandable, but not excusable.

[paulsby]

38. i took pleasure in the death of jeffrey dahmer

if that makes me a bad person, so be it.

[theoldman]

4. Most of us probably wished for a better outcome.

It was not a situation where there were a lot of choices. The lesson is not to get in to a situation like this in the first place. I am sure the "pirates" knew the danger of what they were doing just like the captain of the ship. What's done is done and it does not help to look back. You cannot change the past.

[bertman]

49. There were plenty of other choices and here's one: give the pirates a shitload of money

or whatever it was they were asking for. "Mark" the containers or ransom so it can be tracked. Wait until they release the captain, then allow them to think they're getting away before capturing them. If they decide to stand and fight, then they die. If they surrender they live, the captain lives, the ransom is retrieved.

Is that such a difficult scenario to envision?


Personally, if there was no other alternative, I have no problem with killing armed pirates. But, that said, I think there was a desire to have a media event and the kidnapping of Captain Phillips provided the opportunity.


Nowadays I am very leery of the quick, easy government explanation for why we take military action. This leeriness extends to the Obama administration as well as all the others who have been under the thrall of the MIC for the last five decades. How many times have we thought that our military was acting for one reason then find out later that it was for another reason altogether?

[dipsydoodle]

5. I guess the whoopee brigade

have yet to grow out of the cowboys and indians syndrome.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. No flames here

it is important to realize we are all one being, interconnected--what happens effects us all.

[ulysses]

8. agreed, especially given that

piracy seems to be what passes for "making a living" for a lot of folks in the Horn.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. That's about right.

Plus it wouldn't exactly hurt to understand why, since around 2005, piracy has become epidemic in the region. That does not excuse piracy, but if in fact we non-somalians have, as has been claimed, wrecked the indigenous fishing economy through dumping and trawling, perhaps we might consider some way to remedy that problem. The alternative appears to be some sort of bloodbath. That will bring lots of cheer to some people here, but I've got enough indirect blood on my hands for one lifetime, thanks.

[dem629]

10. ....

[cali]

11. that's about where I stand

but if the only posts you've seen are the ones you describe, you haven't been reading very carefully.

[varkam]

17. Nah - they're just the loudest and the ones generating the most controversy.

:shrug:

[Lisa0825]

37. And they seek out those of us who are saying thinkgs like,

"Yeah, but lets solve the bigger problem that is causing this" and flame us. Sorry, but I don't see why it's wrong to want to find a permanent fix, as opposed to making it a carnival game, and just shooting them as they pop up. That's not going to make the ships safer. I have been insulted multiple times for stating that the pirate issue is a symptom of the conditions there. "Kill 'em all! That's all we need to do!" Yeah, right... I think I took a wrong turn somewhere and landed at FR.

[Skittles]

12. I'm a fairly compassionate person but -

I must say that when you threaten the lives of others, you really take your own life in your hands - because it gives people the RIGHT to use lethal force against you

[varkam]

15. And I'm not saying that it doesn't give that right.

And I'm not saying that they weren't taking their lives into their own hands, or that they were so naive as to be unaware of that basic fact (I mean, after all, they did bring guns of their own to the party). All I'm saying is that they were people at the end of the day, and while I don't think I'm going to lose a whole lot of sleep over the fact that they're dead, it doesn't exactly make me want to jump for joy that they're dead, either.

[dflprincess]

20. If you dump toxic waste into a country's coastal waters and threaten

the lives of the people of that country by doing so, shouldn't you excpect that at least some of the people in that country feel they have a right to use force to defend themselves?

[stray cat]

26. Warlords are true environmentalists looking out for the good of everyday Somalis

:sarcasm: I'm a bit dubious. If you follow the money over the years accumulated in ransoms how much have the warlords spent to help the average Somali?

[varkam]

29. Here's the problem, though...

the good Captain wasn't attacking them - so kidnapping him and holding him for ransom can't really be construed as self-defense. Indeed, the multitude of people that are kidnapped by the pirates have nothing to do with the situations that arise in Somalia.

It isn't that I don't have sympathy for people in desperate situations making desperate decisions - but just because the situation is bad doesn't make such choices righteous.

[dflprincess]

33. I know the captain had to be rescued

and I do think we did the right thing. I am disturbed by the carrying on like this was the biggest Naval action since Midway and the lack of any discussion about why these things are happening off the coast Somalia.

[Skittles]

34. using terroristic tactics on innocent people?

a big fat fucking NO

[HughMoran]

13. Oh, I'm gonna flame you but good!

I win. :hi:

[TZ]

18. Couldn't disagree with you more

I will NOT waste any of my energy feeling bad for people who GO AROUND THREATENING PEOPLE WITH DEATH FOR MONEY I'm big on personal responsibility..,they CHOOSE their actions.Actions have consequences

[varkam]

24. TZ, I'm not saying that they didn't choose their actions...

nor am I saying that actions don't have consequences. I agree with you that it was a risk they took when they hijacked that ship and took the Captain hostage - they made their own beds, so to speak.

What I am saying is that we shouldn't be chomping at the bit to dance on their graves. They were, at the end of the day, people and they are dead.

Beyond that, I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree.

[BlooInBloo]

19. Contrary to their arm-breaking back-patting, DUers don't differ significantly from most Americans...

They go crazy with bloodlust at any available opportunity.

[stray cat]

21. I cheer for the captain being set free - I see no cheers for violence for the sake of violence.

I'm glad the captain is free, no marines were killed and I'm sorry the pirates didn't take advantage of leaving when they could instead of holding a hostage and demanding payment. Most Somali pirates probably don't see much benefit as I suspect the money goes to the warlords but eventhough I may sympathize I will not cheer for people who take innocent victims hostage for money.

[mainer]

22. Before you form an opinion about the pirates, read this:

Even their former captives have a certain amount of sympathy for them.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/04/somali-pirates200904

[stray cat]

25. Sympathy isn't condoning. People feel sorry for mass murderers - and understandably so

most people are not completely devoid of basic humanity although I suspect some sociopaths may prove the exception.

[petronius]

23. Very well said. And, I think we can all agree that piracy is bad and should

be eradicated while simultaneously agreeing that developed countries have at times mistreated less developed nations like Somalia...

[Zhade]

27. Excellent post.

NT!

[Zodiak]

28. Here is how I feel about the pirate situation

1. I am well-aware of the forces that cause many Somalis to turn to piracy. They are real, and they are understandable. However, those reasons begin to break down the when piracy extends far beyond Somali territorial waters (or what was formerly their waters).

2. This attack occurred 350 miles from shore, far outside of the zone where the fisherman turned pirates tend to patrol. This fact makes these pirates far more enterprising and aggressive than other incidents of which I have seen.

3. Taking out these pirates and rescuing the captain was nearly the best outcome for this situation (capturing all four would be best). The pirates had already reneged on one deal and therefore could not be trusted. The hijacking of other ships and the inclusion of more hostages on a German ship made the situation far more volatile, and the willingness to take the captain to shore indicated that the pirates were changing the rules every few hours. Under those circumstances, anything could result.

So I support this action. The pirates needed to be taken out. I thought that tracking them to shore and meeting them with Seals there would have been smart, but this is better since it will not involve any ground forces or setting foot in their country.

Now, that being said, we need to really solve the problem of piracy in the region by removing the root causes of it: dumping and overfishing.

[Lisa0825]

39. Well said.

I never said they shouldn't be punished or even killed for what they are doing, just that the underlying causes must be addressed for a lasting solution, yet many on DU have ridiculed that concept. I am thrilled the Captain was rescued, and I do not mourn for the dead pirates, but let's do something about WHY the pirates are there so they won't continue to rule the sea there.

[Canuckistanian]

30. Well said

If you have a job to do - namely saving a life, just do it, quietly and efficiently.

No need to dance a victory jig over the death of other human beings.

It's unseemly and yes, it does look like bloodlust.

[Libertyfirst]

31. I will reserve my sympathy for those who die of starvation , homeless and i n pain. n/t

[aquart]

32. Yes, more than one thing can be true and usually is.

[Arctic Dave]

35. Finally, sanity.

[bahrbearian]

36. There is more to it then that , "Somalia the Dumping Ground"

The escapades of Somali pirates made headlines last week. But the media has ignored the injustice behind the phenomenon.

When the Asian tsunami of Christmas 2005 washed ashore on the east coast of Africa, it uncovered a great scandal.

Tons of radioactive waste and toxic chemicals drifted onto the beaches after the giant wave dislodged them from the sea bed off Somalia. Tens of thousands of Somalis fell ill after coming into contact with this cocktail. They complained to the United Nations (UN), which began an investigation. "There are reports from villagers of a wide range of medical problems such as mouth bleeds, abdominal hemorrhages, unusual skin disorders and breathing difficulties," the UN noted.

Some 300 people are believed to have died from the poisonous chemicals. Many European, US and Asian shipping firms – notably Switzerland’s Achair Partners and Italy’s Progresso – signed dumping deals in the early 1990s with Somalia’s politicians and militia leaders.

This meant they could use the coast as a toxic dumping ground. This practice became widespread as the country descended into civil war. Nick Nuttall of the UN Environment Program said, "European companies found it was very cheap to get rid of the waste.

[stray cat]

40. I suspect the warlords collecting ransom are not using the proceeds to help Somalis

somehow they don't strike me as envirnmentalists any more than the mafia collects trash to clean up the world instead of to make money.

[slay]

41. Well said

now maybe some of the more.. unbalanced threads on this topic can die off now.. :hi:

[ddeclue]

42. Nope - I have no sympathy for the pirates - the forfeited their lives and any right to my sympathy

when they became pirates and tried to hijack this ship.

[UTUSN]

43. Nope. I have no sympathy for this o.p. n/t

[TK421]

44. PREPARE TO WALK THE PLANK MANGEY SEA-DOG!!!!!

[TK421]

45. PREPARE TO WALK THE PLANK MANGEY SEA-DOG!!!!!

ARGGGhhhh..Dupe post, argghh

[LynnTheDem]

46. Not fair!!! *whine*

You get agreeable responses (other than the one expected one) and I get called all sorts of names for saying the same thing!

You paid them off, didn't you! Admit it! :D

[varkam]

48. Ha! I am but a poor student...

and Ramen Noodles aren't exactly in demand...

[arcadian]

47. Sounds reasonably to me.

Oh wait, that is not the response I'm supposed to give because I'm now a terrorist(actual DU post) by pointing out the bloodlust of the mob here on DU.