What's with the apologism for Somali pirates that I've been seeing?

[ButterflyBlood]

It's ridiculous. DU has always had some bit of knee-jerk sentiment on this sort of thing, but it boggles my mind anyone can seriously argue the pirates are some defenders of the oppressed. They are some not some romanticized revolutionary organization, but common criminals. No different than street gangs, drug cartels or the mafia.

Sure the dumping of waste in the area by European companies is horrendous. But does anyone seriously believe if that were to halt tommorow, the pirates would too? Furthermore does anyone believe they WOULDN'T raid ships carrying aid supplies to Somalia? Somali warlords have in the past had no issues robbing food and medical supplies from non-violent NGOs.

I just wish some people would use common sense instead of taking a knee-jerk position against anyone who dares stand up against "capitalism" and "the West". It's a rather small minority on DU, but one there nonetheless.

[SeattleGirl]

1. Small but very vocal.

I agree that the dumping of waste is horrendous, but I also agree that the piracy would NOT stop the second dumping stopped.

I for one am glad the captain was rescued.

[Bluebear]

2. You are not "one" that is glad the captain is safe. Who is saying otherwise?

[SeattleGirl]

5. Ah jeez.

WTF is up with that?

I said I was glad he was rescued.

There are some on here who feel sorry for the fucking pirates.

Could you dial the fangs back just a bit?

Fuck, any more, it's like taking your life into your own hands to post anything here or in GD-P, 'cause someone's always gonna come after you.

[Bluebear]

8. I'm sick of people accusing people of "cheering on the pirates" here.

If there are people who feel sorry of the pirates, it must be a very small number and certainly not worth starting thread after thread over, as if we're all America-haters (or as somebody said "malcontents") here.

[SeattleGirl]

12. Well fine, be sick of it. But don't go after me about it.

There WERE some people defending the "poor" pirates.

And if people want to start threads about something, who are you to tell them it's wrong?

[Bluebear]

15. Aw, shut up.

Wait, I kid! I kid! :0

I didn't mean to jump down your throat. The reaction to this story has been weird here, that's all. I do apologize.

[SeattleGirl]

17. LOL.

I was just winding up to deliver an internet smackdown!

And yes, the reaction has been weird.

Apology accepted. :hi:

[arcadian]

77. Care to point me to one thread defending the pirates on DU?

[snooper2]

96. Um, any of the ones you started

:rofl:

[ShareTheWoods]

107. Where is the proof of said dumping?

[Threedifferentones]

111. Just putting things in perspective

"We hijack because you dump is obviously bullshit." I guess some pirate somewhere probably said it.

Dumping is only a small fraction of what we have done to make Somalia the way it is. And Somalia has pirates because it has violent assholes, and because the situation powerful foreign governments created brought the opportunity. Moreover, desperate situations actually create more violent assholes, so the problem has become a vicious cycle. Thank you, colonialism, for making us so rich...

That is much more important than any one ship, is all we are saying...

[Liquorice]

3. I agree. I think it's elitism to try to make the pirates into 'victims.' nt

[Bluebear]

19. lol yes, all the "elites"

[Liquorice]

25. I don't know what you mean. nt

[Bluebear]

26. So many Democrats, you know, are elite and everything.

[Liquorice]

30. Elitism is the idea that you are part of a group of people which is

in some way better than other people. Perhaps you know better (you're smarter), or you are wealthier, or you have more experience than other people, etc. In the case of the pirates, elitism rears its ugly head when it seeks to make the "lowly" poverty-stricken pirates into victims who have been violated by the evils of the West, which made them turn to piracy and kidnapping. In other words, they are victims who don't know any better, and therefore are not responsible for their actions.

[leftstreet]

4. What were the pirates demanding? Anyone know?

:shrug:

[question everything]

7. Money. So what?

Does this make their crime any less criminal?

[Bluebear]

9. Yes, heaven forbid you answer a simple question about what their demands were.

[leftstreet]

14. LOL it's gettin nuts here, ya think?

:hi:

[leftstreet]

10. I just wondered, that's all. How much money?

:shrug:

[WonderGrunion]

73. $2 Million is what was reported before the captain's rescue

N/m

[NYC_SKP]

11. Not sure about these pirates, but usually they want one or two or three million dollars.

And they get it.

Arming the ships raises liability costs for the shippers and they prefer to just pay the ransoms and move on.

I suppose captains and crews sign on knowing these risks.

Kind of stupid IMO, cuz then we have to go in and save them?

I think they should have a couple cannons on each ship, but critics of that say it would escalate the weaponry on the other side.

[leftstreet]

"they prefer to just pay the ransoms and move on"

I kinda wondered about that.

Interesting.

[ButterflyBlood]

22. They got insurance

That makes paying the ransom all the more easier.

[leftstreet]

24. Good point n/t

[question everything]

81. And how does the insurance company recover its loss?

By raising premiums on others, of course, meaning raising costs of all things shipped, so next time when you realize that stuff costs more, remember this absurd comment of yours.

Might as well set your over priced home on fire, or steal your own precious stuff. After all, the insurance pays.

[NYC_SKP]

33. Per "Meet the Press" panelist.

I just happened to be watching when the OP was posted.

Makes sense in a corporate way...

[leftstreet]

36. Interesting. Wonder why they chose not to pay the ransom this time

Yes, it makes sense in a (shudder) corporate way, so it makes me wonder why this time was different.

Probably hard to say.

edit to say:
If that was the case here.

[MADem]

39. They fucked with an AMERICAN Vessel, is why.

It's usually the SAUDI tankers they're shaking down for big bucks, or container ships flying something other than a US flag.

[leftstreet]

41. Well, AMERICANS just gave Wall Street trillions in 'ransom' money

Nobody called in the Seals

[MADem]

45. Oh, please. Pathetic attempt to redirect.

Always happens when there's no real retort.


But.....but.... (sputter!!!!!) Look over THERE!!! Pay no attention to those murders and hostages!!! Why "that thing" is...so much worse!!! BAAAAD!!! BAD America!! Blame Obama...and his little dog, too!!!!

[leftstreet]

46. I thought it was kinda clever

:cry:

[Bluebear]

21. The international maritime community needs to start putting "Air Marshals" on board...

Or sea marshals I should say! The pirates would not know which ships have armed security on board, maybe it would work at least as some deterrent.

[NYC_SKP]

35. I agree, some form of protection, some armament.

And as you suggest, maybe just on, say, 20% of the fleet, or roaming from ship to ship to keep the pirates guessing.

[Wednesdays]

71. I thought they'd be demanding a treasure map

I know, I know...I'm risking permaban here.

:hide:

[leftstreet]

99. ...

:spray:

Excellent answer!

[MADem]

6. Stupid people. Easily led. Simple folk, who can be convinced of anything.

Their argument sort of falls apart when you realize that the damned ship they were attacking was carrying HUMANITARIAN AID that was going to BENEFIT the citizens of SOMALIA.

However, if the warlords had gotten hold of it, it would have been SOLD to the citizens of Somalia ... or across the borders in other countries.


Question: Why attack American and Saudi and Indian vessels, if you're pissed at the ITALIANS for dumping?

Doesn't pass the smell test. If any Somali pirate ships are flying a flag, it's the BULLSHIT flag.

The nitwits who believe this stupid "excuse" are abject fools. And the "I hate the Capitalist West" crowd are a bunch of tiresome blowhards. They're a minority who manage to be a major irritant. I don't understand why they patronize a forum that favors a robust Democratic Party and a progressive presence in this republic of ours. They certainly don't give a shit about any of the planks of the party platform--you really have to wonder why they spend all their time here, scolding people who don't favor their lameass, un-democratic views?

[question everything]

13. And how easily they plaster the term "fascist" on our government

Sometimes I wish that they lived in a real fascist country to learn, first hand, the difference.

As a start, there won't be DU, or Olbermann, or Maher, etc.

[MADem]

23. Yep. Ain't that a fact.

Listening to nothing but the Glorious Leader's bullshit, no matter who that Leader may be, day in, day out, and the same crap on every channel, why, it gets old. I've been there and done that.

[Two Americas]

16. there hasn't been any

What is going on here?

Some people tried to present a little context for the problems there, and we have people throwing a fit about that.

No one made any of the claims that you are accusing people of making.

No one is defending piracy, no one is hating America nor hating Obama.

People are losing their minds around here.



...

[SeattleGirl]

20. Sorry, but yes, they have.

Not many, but a few.

Justifying the pirates actions because of the dumping.

Sorry, but many of us think that taking a person hostage and threatening to kill him is wrong.

And who knows if these particular pirates were doing it because of the dumping?

Seems to me, they were doing it for the money, because it's succeeded before.

Just because you didn't see a particular thing, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Two Americas]

32. I don't know about that

with the number of members here there is always a chance that almost anything will be said at some point by
"a few." So what?

I read several posts where people talked about the dumping, None of them said that the dumping justified piracy. They may have suggested that it was part of the entire picture. So what?

We all "think that taking a person hostage and threatening to kill him is wrong." Suggesting otherwise is without foundation and is a malicious smear of other DUers.

"Who knows if these particular pirates were doing it because of the dumping?" No one claimed that.

I didn't even realize that this had anything to do with Obama. Now that I know that people have this associated in their minds (or implanted there by the MSM) that this was some sort of test of the president as commander in chief, I understand why people are acting half crazed around here. Anyone offering any background or context is attacked because they are disturbing the happy little fantasy people have going on in their minds about the commander in chief, a though he were some warlord. I think that is an insult to all of us here as well as to the president. This so-called "loyalty" and "support" is way, way out of control.

President Obama did what any other president would have done in this situation. It does not warrant yet another round of attacking other Democrats and throwing the community back into the cesspool of animosity and acrimony.



...

[MADem]

42. Yeah, they did.

Here's one thread making that claim: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5442004

Here's another: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5440007

[Two Americas]

48. yes

I saw both of those. Are those the egregious examples that justify all of this uproar?

I think a case can be made that those conditions led to the chaos there in which piracy is happening.

Don't you? Wouldn't anyone who is not completely caught up in jingoistic militarism be willing to consider that?

If Bush were president you would be willing to consider this.

Politics, by the way, is always about resources. When all legitimate approaches are blocked, and when people are desperate, anything can happen. So this idea that there are good guys fighting - or expropriating resources - for noble reasons, and then there are those who are merely greedy is unsupportable. Saying that those whom you place in the second category deserve to be killed is the same mindset we just rejected in the recent elections.

This isn't Marxist bullshit, it is basic human decency.

And what is this business of attacking other Democrats for "blaming America first?" Haven't we endured enough of that crap from the right wingers?



...

[MADem]

50. A bullshit case can be made. Not a genuine case. That clown at the UN was

playing "two wrongs make a right."

You know, if I am mad at the teacher, I don't go pick a fight with the policeman. That's the level of argument that asshole is applying. It's nonsense, and anyone who buys it needs a reality check.

This has nothing to do with Bush. Bringing him into the discussion is the first sign that your argument has failed. If someone held a merchant captain from Vermont hostage and Ronald Fucking Reagan was president, I'd want that hostage freed.

You need to study up. You have no clue how many people these assholes have MURDERED. You have no idea, apparently, how many are being held hostage still.

By your arguments, it's obvious you need to work on your knowledge base vis a vis this issue. You're backing the team of murderers and criminals--not a good side to be on, IMO.

[Two Americas]

52. no one is making any such case

So those remarks in those post you cited justify this uproar in you mind?

Which argument of mine has failed? Why are we not permitted to talk about Bush now?

I am not talking about the pirates. I am talking about the people here.

I am not "backing the team of murderers and criminals" and that is an outrageous, malicious and unfounded insinuation.

Let's step back from this a little. Do you really believe that I am "backing the team of murderers and criminals" Are you asking others here to believe that? You well know that I said nothing whatsoever that could even remotely be construed as "backing the team of murderers and criminals."

That remark by you is a perfect example of exactly what I am complaining about - we should all be complaining about that sort of dishonest and malicious behavior here.

THAT is what I am talking about. Not pirates.



...

[MADem]

58. Let's chop your post up, since that is what you want.

I saw both of those. Are those the egregious examples that justify all of this uproar?

They are not the only examples, they are two -- I am not your secretary. The search feature is your friend, too.

I think a case can be made that those conditions led to the chaos there in which piracy is happening.

Yes, a bullshit case. Because when you are angry at the Europeans for stealing your fish out of your toxic waters, and you are angry at the Italians for dumping toxins off your shore, as the lying bastard at the UN claimed, of course the way you address these issues is to hijack Saudi tankers, Indian container ships, French private vessels, and American ships carrying HUMANITARIAN AID to make your point clear to the Italians and the Europeans. PLEASE. That justification strains credulity.

Don't you? Wouldn't anyone who is not completely caught up in jingoistic militarism be willing to consider that?

Jingoistic militarism? Now that's absurd. Gee, I think pirates who hold hundreds of people hostage, and who have murdered SCORES of innocents, and who have extorted MILLIONS from hijacking vessels peaceably plying the seas are ASSHOLES--so "I" am engaging in jingoistic militarism? What planet are you from?

If Bush were president you would be willing to consider this.

No I wouldn't. That was your Big Bullshit statement.

Politics, by the way, is always about resources. When all legitimate approaches are blocked, and when people are desperate, anything can happen. So this idea that there are good guys fighting - or expropriating resources - for noble reasons, and then there are those who are merely greedy is unsupportable. Saying that those whom you place in the second category deserve to be killed is the same mindset we just rejected in the recent elections.

Politics is about communication. The right kind of communication can earn a nation resources. Ask Pakistan. Ask Libya. All legitimate approaches were NOT blocked. If Muhamar Friken Quaddafi, of PAN AM 103 infamy (remember that?) can kiss and make up with the USA, a coalition of Somali warlords could cobble together a government along the lines of the UAE in a power-sharing scheme and come to terms with the USA. All they'd have to do is say "Sorry" for Mogadishu, give up a few of Osama's pals who are still hiding out down that way, and they'd be on their way to AID-ville and a place in the community of nations.

This isn't Marxist bullshit, it is basic human decency.

It's profound naivete.

And what is this business of attacking other Democrats for "blaming America first?" Haven't we endured enough of that crap from the right wingers?

As I said, that's what the far left is saying to their fellow Democrats who aren't sufficiently left to suit them. And when they aren't whining that America sucks and Chavez and Castro run paradise nations, they're blaming Obama and his little dog, too.

Bottom line--there's no defense for what these "pirates" did. There's no "seeing their side of the story." They're thugs. They are murderers. They've killed innocent fisherman, sailors, small children--and they don't give a shit. You don't "reason" with people like that. There's no reasoning to be had. You meet force with more force, and you make it clear to them that if they come near you, they are gonna lose. The thing those thugs need to do is ESCHEW the behavior, and it's up to those who are doing the wrong thing to act first.

You don't reward bad behavior. You don't try to "understand" it. You tell the people behaving badly to stop, and advise them that if they don't, the consequences will be profound. And then you back it up.

Is this simply America's job? No. The Indian Navy has sent a ship to patrol the waters--other nations need to chip in, too. And they need to be prepared to fire at fucking will. These criminals need to be knocked down and held to account. They cannot be permitted to continue killing and capturing innocents, and anyone who thinks that there's some place for "understanding" this criminality needs to check themselves. They are violating INTERNATIONAL LAW when they attack people on the high seas, and nations have the right--and responsibility-- to respond when this happens.

[Two Americas]

61. no one is doing any of that

No one is defending pirates.

No one is calling for rewarding bad behavior.

No one is saying that of you are angry at the Europeans for stealing your fish or dumping toxic waste that the way to address these issues is to hijack ships.

But you insist that some mythical group - your hated leftists - are doing those things, and then go off on a McCarthyesque red-baiting rant.

I am not talking about the pirates at all. I am talking about you, and others, who are using this issue to spread hatred and bloodlust and make malicious attacks on your fellow DUers.



...

[MADem]

63. Excuse me? The Somali representative at the UN has been saying all of that.

And people here have been AGREEING with the lying jerk.

I provide links. Those links have posts. These posts bear out my comments.

If you don't read them, that's on you.

[Two Americas]

82. what does that have to do with the price of beans?

Argue with him, then.

As I said, I am objecting to the behavior of you and others here. I am not talking about pirates.

[MADem]

83. One more time--the Somali rep has been saying that, and people HERE

have been agreeing with him.

The people who don't agree with this view are debating the subject with those HERE that do.

Look, if it's a little too warm for you here in the DU kitchen, you aren't forced to stay. No one is holding YOU hostage at gunpoint and demanding that you pay the ransom of participation in this or other threads about this subject, at the peril of your very life. You're free to jump off the life raft and start swimming for a safer vessel at any time.

HIDE THREAD is your friend.

[Two Americas]

84. I am fine

Too warm? For me? lol

There really isn't anything to debate. You say piracy is bad. Terrific. I think everyone agrees with that.



...

[MADem]

37. Yes there have been these claims made--in several threads, too.

That halfassed Marxist overlay of claptrap that you see scattered around here like birdshit. Tons of Moral Equivilency and "Evil America" nonsense. Invention of reasons why the pirates do what they do. Convoluting the poor of Somalia (who are not fisherman, Somalis don't particularly like fish) with these henchmen of wealthy warlords.

People ARE losing their minds around here, and they're saying that very foolishness. Do a quick search, you'll see.

[Two Americas]

43. you see things that are not there

Of course the odd comment is always possible. But I read several threads where people tried to provide a little bit of context for the problems in Somalia, and were viciously attacked for daring to do that. Had the exact same thing happened under Bush's watch, and had people posted the exact same comments, there would not be this ridiculous uproar over it.

There was a time when we could speak out about injustice and poverty, about the domination of poor countries by American corporations, and in general discuss things calmly and intelligently and did not have to apologize for taking a left wing point of view.

What happened is that there are people here who object to any commentary whatsoever that interferes with their comic book fantasies about their commander in chief.

"...halfassed Marxist overlay of claptrap that you see scattered around here like birdshit???"

"'Evil America' nonsense?"

WTF? Can't you leave those sort of attacks on the Left to Fox news and the rest of the red-baiters in the mass media?


...

[MADem]

47. Odd comment? I just gave you two links full of "odd comments" in post 42.

Peruse that Hate America/Evil Obama bullshit and get back to me. I'm not the one doing the attacking--it's people HERE who are. I like both America and Obama, and if that makes me "uncool," I'm happy to be in that club.

Obama wasn't my first choice by a LONG shot, but I happen to prefer having a Democratic President. I'm giving him some room. He and the US NAVY did a great job handling this business. I'm delighted at the outcome.

[SeattleGirl]

57. Apparently, though, if Obama hasn't fulfilled YOUR agenda completely,

he's a fucking looser, right?

Gawd, but I am sick of that.

And I like you post.

[MADem]

62. He hasn't fulfilled my agenda completely. He never will, either.

Unless he turns white and female, gets a decade and then some older, and everyone calls him Hillary, he never will!

:rofl:

But see, I got over that shit, and I'm backing the guy even though he's not The One That I Wanted. Why? Because he's doing a decent job. He's not the President of the Far Left, he's not the President of Middle, and he's not the President of the Far Right.

He's everyone's President, including mine. Even though I don't love his Faith Based bullshit, his religious pandering, or his foot dragging on GLBT LGBT (whatever the order, I always fuck that up) issues, to name a few things. That said, I do see what he's doing and why. He's sucking up to the Jesus crowd, and stiff-arming the gays a bit (leaving the states to carry the heavy loads), in order to DENY these wedge issues to the GOP. It's "post-triangulation." It's stealing their shit, in a way.

Prepare to see the Democratic Party be less vocal and/or more tolerant of prolife Democrats, too. That's another wedge issue that he intends to deny the right.

While he disappoints on these fronts, he will move the ball forward on stem cell, worker rights, wages, health care...bread and butter stuff. And hopefully, he'll cross those risky T's and dot those unpopular I's in his second term.

I won't give up on the guy just yet. He's barely out of the gate.

[Extend a Hand]

18. I've been surprised that DU went so "hang 'em high" in response to the pirates

first, I am very, very glad that the captain is safe. Yet I still have some sympathy for the Somalian pirates. Somalia is a failed state with no real economy left. Desperate people do desperate things. The fact that I'm not willing to write off all Somalian pirates as "common criminals" has nothing to do with a stand against capitalism or the illegal dumping of nuclear waste.

[MADem]

31. These are not "desperate people." These are the henchmen of wealthy warlords.

You're buying the bullshit.

Do you think ANY of that stuff they wanted to steal would have ended up in the hands of the poor? Fuck no--unless the poor PAID THEM for the stuff that was destined to reach them for free in the form of humanitarian aid, had not the pirates tried to interfere.

It's not "hang 'em high." It's a normal intolerance for brutish thuggery, criminality and yes, murder.

Where's your "sympathy" for the widows of the Yemeni fishermen that these assholes murdered, in order to steal their fishing boats, so they could prosecute their piracies over the years and capture larger and bigger "mother ships?" You do realize these bastards have murdered people who have NOTHING to do with this nonsensical dumping excuse, and who aren't "European fisherman" (taking fish from these so called toxic waters, when the EU has WAY better food testing that we do? Yeah, sure--no bullshit there). They are holding over two hundred people HOSTAGE, STILL. And you feel SORRY For them?

Piracy is WRONG. It's why we established our Department of the Navy and the United States Marine Corps. We've never put up with it, and no one should. How anyone can excuse or forgive it is astounding. It's theft, and in the case of these guys, it's theft, it's murder, it's hostage taking, and it's ransoming. All of it is dispicable and inexcusable.

They've got a rep at the UN. This guy never piped up about this nonsense until they had four guys holding a gun to an American's back, and two US Navy warships off their coast, ready to do business. They know the gravy train has derailed, and they're trying to rewrite their reasoning. Don't buy it.

[Extend a Hand]

51. I guess The House Armed Services Committee is "buying the bullshit" too

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/03/pirates_of_somalia.html


check out the high tech weaponry in photo 19.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/africaCrisis/idUKLC335689?rpc=64

http://www-cdn.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103000534
Since then, Somalia has suffered nearly 20 years of anarchy, chaotically ruled by rival clans backed by pickup trucks mounted with anti-aircraft guns. Its nominal government controls barely a few blocks.

With no coast guard to defend its shores, Somalis began complaining that vessels from Asia and Europe were dumping toxic waste in their waters and illegally scooping up red snapper, barracuda and tuna. The rampant illegal fishing began destroying the livelihoods of local fishermen.

According to a memo prepared last month by the staff of the U.S. House Armed Services Committee, Somali clans began resorting "to armed gangs in an attempt to stop the foreign vessels. Over time, these gangs have evolved into hijacking commercial vessels for ransom as an alternative source of income."

[MADem]

53. I don't think you understand the history of this issue.

This shit has been going on since the EARLY NINETIES. The toxic dumping excuse went by the wayside YEARS ago. The business is hijacking and ransoming, make no mistake. Here's the real money quote in your link:

And most of all, picture ransoms, huge ransoms.

"I think when most people think of pirates, they think of Johnny Depp and the Pirates of the Caribbean," said security consultant Crispian Cuss of the London-based Olive Group. But these guys are "just fishermen paid to act as pirates by warlords and armed gangs who have taken over a lawless state."



Henchmen, thugs, criminals. In the employ of wealthy warlords. Shaking down tankers by aiming RPGs at them and capturing them.

[NoSheep]

54. I don't think YOU understand the history! This "shit", as you so aptly term it, has been

going on for thousands of years. I simply despise when a person such as yourself, who pays taxes for an army who will do his bidding, thinks these folks who must take matters into their own hands are somehow BENEATH YOU.

[MADem]

59. Oh please. Develop a sense of context.

I was IN THE REGION when they started doing this in the early nineties. They weren't doing it in the eighties, seventies, or sixties.

And I am RETIRED MILITARY. Where you get that idiotic "beneath you" dramatic crap I have no idea. What, I'm beneath myself???

You either need to read more carefully or go to bed.

[NoSheep]

91. I wouldn't expect anything any more intelligent from you.

[MADem]

94. Is that supposed to be a 'retort?' You don't know me. Don't act like you do. nt

[Fire1]

93. Ah, that explains alot.

[MADem]

95. What does it explain, precisely? Please elucidate.

Come on, Snarkmeister, put up or shut up. Don't keep us all in suspense, now.

You have a problem with people who served in the military? Gee "that explains a lot."

[auburnblu]

38. Like taking over the French sailboat

Clearly a case of standing up to evil European toxic dumping. How dare the toxic dumpers bring a child on their evil mission. But the Somalia Volunteer Coast Guard took a stand and those of us that are "enlightened" on DU cheered.

[walldude]

27. Nobody is apologizing for anything...

Some people see that there is more than meets the eye here but I have yet to see a single post apologizing for the pirates or unhappy that the Captain was freed. What I do see is many people, like me disgusted, with the celebrating going on.

I'll repeat this: Not many years ago GWB put a woman to death. She was a murderer convicted by a jury of her peers and sentenced to death. Bush sniggered and joked about killing this woman. 100% of DU was up in arms about the jokes and comments he made, about the celebrating he did, even though this woman was a convicted murderer. I for one see no difference in these Rah Rah, go USA, Navy 3, Pirates 0 threads, it's celebrating killing. Justified or not, it's as sickening to me now as it was then.

[Bluebear]

28. +1

[leftstreet]

29. Well said

Excellent example.

[Two Americas]

44. thank you

Thanks for adding a note of sanity.

[MADem]

49. Post forty two. Two links.

They justify the pirates by claiming, quite falsely, that the pirates attack Saudi and other vessels because Italian mafia dumped toxins off their coast, and "Europeans" overfished their (toxic) waters. I'm sure the EU with their way-better food regulations just loves "toxic" fish on the market.

As for Karla Faye Tucker, or whatever her name is, here in America most states don't do the death penalty. Most do life for murder. See, there's an OPTION there. And Karla didn't have a gun in the back of a hostage, either--if that were the case, I'd say turn her head into an exploding watermelon, too--because it's just not "cool" to hold people hostage and threaten to kill them. We don't go for that. Perhaps this situation will make those thugs realize that, no indeed, we do not play.

[walldude]

55. Well then... feel free to continue your celebration

pardon me if I don't join you.

[MADem]

60. Well then, indeed. nt

[rusty fender]

70. well, you know, if you play with fire...

...you just might get burned.

[Occam Bandage]

92. Please learn what the word "apologist" means. nt

[auburnblu]

34. The noble Somalia Volunteer Coast Guard

They can also be referred to as high seas adventurers. Only greedy people would call them pirates.

I was so glad that the Somalia Coast Guard took a stand against the French sailboat. I could not believe the nerve of the French sailboaters dumping toxic waste and bringing a child on the mission as cover. "We the enlightened" are not fooled. And like many on DU I will only think toxic dumping is occurring by European ships. "I'm enlightened". No way ships from other continents would do that.

[Skittles]

40. they are worse than common criminals, bb

they are terrorists

[Wednesdays]

72. Wow, we've come full circle, haven't we

[Political Heretic]

56. The following things can ALL be true at the same time:

1. Some, possibly many or perhaps most somali "pirates" are in fact pirates - criminals in it for the money.
2. Some, possibly many, unlikely to be most somali "pirates" are actually motivated by other underlying causes which need addressed by the global community
3. Our Navy SEALS kick ass when it comes to assholes holding our citizens hostage and threatening to murder them.

[Syrinx]

64. and with number five you go the greatest page

[Norrin Radd]

65. They met their inevitable end, living by the sword and all...

[woo me with science]

66. But....they are CHILDREN!!!!!!!!

http://themoderatevoice.com/28756/somali-pirate-wanted-us-protection-hes-16-years-old/

[DainBramaged]

67. White folks living in the comfort of their Mother's basement finding solutions

to the World's problems.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[nichomachus]

69. Don't get snarky just cause your mom lets you live upstairs in the attic

:rofl: X 10

[DainBramaged]

80. Mom don't got noes attaic, and she won't let me lives wif hers

She be 92 and don't trust no innertubes. :hi:

[Wednesdays]

74. Huh?

Which ones are the white ones, and which ones are living in their mothers' basements?

:shrug:

[Bluebear]

102. unreal eh?

[Odin2005]

68. It's the "The West is always evil, 3rd World thugs are good and virtuous" contingent.

It's a wacky fusion of Marxist BS and anti-colonialist romanticism.

[Mike Daniels]

75. Also irritating is that article that claims the pirates of yore were about equality/democracy

Yes, life in the navy revolved around "the Captain is god". However, a captain and officers knew that a ship that had a discontented crew was not going to make for an effective ship in or out of battle and any captain worth his salt used the harsher discipline methods rarely. Incidentally, punishments for offenses at sea were generally less severe than the punishment for an equivalent crime on land. What may get you 3 or 4 lashes on board a ship would have resulted in a lengthy prison stay or more on land.

As far as pirate "equality" goes, while there was a sense of democracy on pirate ships that democracy was not extended to crews of vanquished/captured ships. People in crew positions who would have been of value on a ship were pressed into service against their will. The conduct towards female passengers on ships taken by the pirates was generally of a violent nature (usually rape). Meanwhile, pirates were more likely to sell any captured slaves than to welcome them as equals. If the slaves couldn't be sold easily they were generally marooned on land and recaptured or left on board an abandoned vessel.

Also, this myth that pirates were frequently seen as heros by the impoverished is crap. Most of the victims of piracy were other sailors who weren't much higher on the income scale than the general citizen and piracy played havoc with the economy of many ports and towns which would effect the population in turn. If anything, the general populace was more inclined to turn out to celebrate the capture, trial and hanging of pirates vs. attempting some sort of rescue attempt.

Anyway, it seems that too many people have based their ideas of pirates from what they see from Hollywood vs. any sense of reality.

[jody]

76. Doesn't surprise me, people honored Lovelle Mixon who shot and killed four police officers Oakland.

[WeDidIt]

78. It's Freepers trying to make DU look bad n/.t

[Quantess]

86. Yes, I agree that a few of the apologists are probably stealth freeps.

But, some of them have a romantic affinity for pirates, and some others are just extreme bleeding hearts.

At the end of the day, the overwhelming majority of DUers are happy with the outcome. They post about it less, because there is really nothing to complain about.

[arcadian]

87. Funny that you should call some people "stealth freepers"

Then turn around and call liberals "bleeding hearts" which just happens to be one of the rights favorite monikers for liberal. Me thinks you just outed yourself.

[Quantess]

89. Oh, you caught me. Give me my pizza.

Edit: My post above was unfair. I realize some people have reasons beyond those that I listed in an unflattering way. I don't agree with them, but it was rude of me to dismiss their arguments in that way.

[arcadian]

88. Man, you're paranoid with all your conspiracy speculation.

[ButterflyBlood]

105. Want wild conspiracies? Check post #98

n/t

[slackmaster]

79. There are a few idiots in every crowd

:nuke:

[JackRiddler]

85. Maybe you should ask yourself: Why are you seeing things that aren't there?

Where's your link to even one of these supposed apology threads?

What I have seen is a few rational responses to the bloodthirsty cheerleaders who hanker for more military action in Somalia.

Some threads even talk about history: Such as that the US has intervened repeatedly in Somalia and contributed to the horrific situation there in many ways -- most recently through the Ethiopian invasion of 2006-2008 and the toppling of the Islamic Courts movement. (They were anti-warlord and anti-pirate!)

Others correctly point to the dumping of waste along the Somali coast as an example of a much worse crime than piracy - and yet it gets minimal coverage, no mass outrage, no calls for military strikes.

What I've also seen is threads pointing to the utter disproportionality of the media coverage: a hijack/kidnapping of a ship with one hostage means three or four days of continuous coverage by the same media who ignore the ongoing piracy of everything we collectively have by the Wall Street criminal class.

Is that too much for you to deal with, that you have to misrepresent and invent?

[ButterflyBlood]

90. Check out post #42 for links

As for the Islamic Courts movement, you did coveniently leave out that they were in fact a Taliban-esque movement which executed people for supposed high crimes like watching the World Cup. Yes, really sad that they were toppled.

[alarimer]

97. My perspective is that any society is just a few steps from complete breakdown.

And that in such a situation people do ANYTHING to survive. None of us are any different. Remember LORD OF THE FLIES? That is us, with the veneer of society ripped off. Anyone so high and mighty as to think they are different is WRONG.

[conscious evolution]

98. When do we invade Somalia?

Thats what this recent concern with pirates is all about,imo.If the US actually gave a fuck about pirates we would have been doing something about the pirates that have been operating with impunity for decades in other maritime zones across the globe.
The whole thing smells like a psyop/propoganda campaign geared toward selling another war to the american sheople.

[ButterflyBlood]

100. So you're accusing Obama of spreading imperialistic propaganda

Nice. I hope you noticed the change in administrations.

Of course why either Obama or even Bush would care about invading and occupying Somalia is beyond me. What is there in Somalia?

[conscious evolution]

101. If we do invade

it will be billed as america reformatting itself as an international peacekeeper without imperialistic or profit driven motives.Sort of a return to the good ole days when the sherrif wore a white hat and ran the bad guys outta Dodge.

I ain't buyin what they are selling.
We may be putting on the white hat but I garauntee you we will still be wearing a blackhat underneath it all.Our goverment will still be trying to overthrow goverments that don't kiss our ass,will still be murdering activists and voices for peace,still supporting despots and dictators and tyrants that support the company line,will still be supporting corporations over people.

Meet the new boss.Same as the old boss.

[ButterflyBlood]

104. Give me some proof Obama wants to do this

Actual proof, not wild, random speculation. If you're going to smear Obama, back it up.

[amborin]

103. they're protesting extinction of fisheries by over-fishing G-7 nations

[NorthernSpy]

106. I would ask that people take piracy committed by the rich just as seriously...

When people from affluent nations steal the resources of poor countries and intimidate poor fishermen out of making a living, it's an "issue".


When people from affluent nations dump deadly poisons on poor countries, and injure and kill the people of those poor countries, it's an "issue".


When people from poor nations interrupt the commerce of affluent countries, and hold ships and their crews captive for ransom, suddenly it's understood that we're not talking about "issues" anymore. We're talking about crimes, and we're ready to act with lethal force to end the threat.


And I'm waiting for someone to explain why the first two "issues" didn't seem to merit that kind of response.

[ShareTheWoods]

108. Because the first two "issues" are lies and have no basis in reality

Feel free to supply proof to the contrary from a reliable source.

[NorthernSpy]

109. Why do I get the feeling that your idea of a "reliable source" is Freak Republic?

Here ya go: Prelude To Piracy, from Spiegel Online.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,594457,00.html

[ShareTheWoods]

112. That FR quip was uncalled for and does nothing to educate anyone

From the story...

The UN envoy to Somalia, Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, said last October that the UN has "reliable information that European and Asian companies are dumping toxic waste, including nuclear waste, off the Somali coastline."

And why is this "Reliable information" so elusive that it can't be found? Maybe because it's a lie perhaps?

There are no documented accounts for any of the bogus claims.

[Threedifferentones]

110. Just putting things in perspective

"We hijack because you dump is obviously bullshit." I guess some pirate somewhere probably said it.

Dumping is only a small fraction of what we have done to make Somalia the way it is. And Somalia has pirates because it has violent assholes, and because the situation powerful foreign governments created brought the opportunity. Moreover, desperate situations actually create more violent assholes, so the problem has become a vicious cycle. Thank you, colonialism, for making us so rich...

That is much more important than any one ship, is all we are saying...