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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:44 AM
Original message
Obama Protecting Bush from Spain?
The official story is that Spain has decided not to prosecute Bush's torture lawyers. Yet the known facts suggest something else entirely.

1-We know that the prosecutor who initiated this effort wants to prosecute Bush. He wrote about it months ago. We know that he and his colleagues see targeting the lawyers first as a step in Bush's direction and more likely to move forward than a case that starts at the top.

2-We know from Scott Horton's reporting that Spain and the Obama administration have been communicating about this case.

3-We know that the White House's press secretary was asked this week about those communications and avoided answering the question at all, rather than simply going with the story already reported that the U.S. was just observing and "gathering information."

4-We know that Obama wants to "move forward," does not want to prosecute Bush, and is going to extraordinary lengths to maintain and expand the power of the presidency (including the power to detain without charge, rendition, illegal foreign occupations and strikes, the power to make treaties without Congress, rewriting laws with signing statements, making laws with executive orders, keeping most of Bush's signing statements and executive orders in place, unprecedented claims of state secrets and classification and sovereign immunity and executive privilege, the power to fire whistleblowers, keeping memos and Emails secret, etc.)

5-We know that the top law enforcement official in Spain has made an argument for dismissing the case against the lawyers that an 8 year old would spot as an illegal absurdity, that was not a necessary argument for dismissing the case, but that would be a necessary argument for preventing a case against Bush. While he could have argued, like Doug Feith, that those engaging in the torture or ordering it were more culpable than the lawyers (as they are indeed), he instead argued that ONLY those present for the torture are culpable, thus exonerating Hitler, Pinochet, and every other official who has ordered a crime from a distance.

6-We know that if the top law enforcement official in Spain lacked the mental acumen of an 8 year old, Fox News would have pointed that out to us during the past couple of days of xenophobic screeching.

7-We know that the rightwing was preparing big attacks on Obama for allowing Spain to proceed, and that the official "left" was not going to have his back. Senator Russ Feingold said yesterday that Spain was behaving inappropriately.

These facts are at least extremely suggestive of a less than independent decision by the Spanish to deny justice and stick to "looking forward," a decision that certainly does not follow public opinion in Spain and was not predicted by reporters in Spain but was predicted by Doug Feith on Fox News:

"I hope and expect that the Obama administration will communicate to the Spanish government that they — that they do not view this as simply an attack against some former officials; they view it as an attack on the U.S. government — because as I said, the principle that's involved here would attack current officials as much as former officials."
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Probably most of the EU
doesn't want to see this. Afraid of what it would bring.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. the admis is probuably scared as well, if we extradited an ex president to spain
who would be next, clinton, US army generals, anybody in fact, i think there would be an uprising if the admin tried to do this.
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Duende azul Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. Sadly you are right.
Instead of standing up against US-torture practice they want to share results, learn the methods and advance a similar agenda.

Remember how they were all complicit in rendition flights?
And if you are concerned that members of congress were wiretapped - imagine what NSA did by listening in on all of Europe's communications. They should have enough dirt on every government member. Some may even be their tools.
The empire doesn´t leave these things unattended.

And Spain is a very special case. Trying or dissimulating to fight torture abroad they are practicing it at home. The incidence in Spain could well be the highest in Western Europe. Had this case proceeded, they wouldn´t have stood on very high moral ground.
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. Of course he's protecting Bush...
And I would and did fully expect him to.

People need to understand that Obama is never going to lift a finger to prosecute the Bushies for anything. Anyone who believes any different is deluding themselves. The man does not want his brains blown out. It's really that simple.
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howmad1 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. On the other hand......
.....maybe the Bush/Cheney cabal have set up a really good trust fund for Sasha and Melia, insuring these bastards will never be prosecuted. How else does one explain Obama's decision not to investigate - and his decision today not to prosecute the torturers. "They were only following orders." Geeez, that sure does have a familiar ring to it. Maybe Obama is a smoother con artist than Bush. Ya think?
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Windy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. this was a decision made by Spain. It had nothing to do with the US
From everything I've read, it appears that the nail in the coffin of the investigation was also bring in Isreal for its actions against Palestine.

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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. where did you read that
please tell me
david@davidswanson.org
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. AFP says
Earlier this month, Spanish public prosecutors also recommended the National Audience shelve a separate complaint against seven top Israeli military figures over a deadly bombing of Gaza in 2002, a lawsuit which angered Israel.

In that case, public prosecutors justified the move on the grounds the alleged crimes against humanity in question are already the subject of a legal procedure in Israel.

The complaint filed by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights concerns an Israeli air attack on July 22, 2002 on Gaza City which killed a suspected leader of the Islamist movement Hamas along with 14 civilians, mainly children.
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sattahipdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. Oh Please
"The attorney general speaks of the court being turned into a plaything. Well, I don't think the attorney general's office should be turned into a plaything for politicians," Boye told AP. "It is a terrible precedent if those intellectually responsible for crimes can no longer be held accountable."

The court official told AP that in addition to raising legal doubts, prosecutors will say that Garzon should be replaced by another judge who is already investigating whether secret CIA flights to or from Guantanamo entered Spanish airspace or landed at Spanish airports.

Such a move would make it difficult for Garzon to try to keep the case alive despite prosecutors' objections, as he did in the Pinochet case.

Observers say the removal of Garzon would be another serious blow for the hopes of human rights lawyers, who saw him as being sympathetic to their cause.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20090416/eu-spain-us-torture/
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
8. That's right. Obama is Satan.
:sarcasm:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. Obama now controls Spain, hm? Why, his improbable tentacles are longer than Bush's!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. These may be of interest:
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. And this thread get's taken over by the Bush apologists.
Sad, really.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. right. because if one doesn't agree with speculation that Obama
blocked a Spanish court from pursuing bushco, one must of course be a bush apologist- well at least is the sick and not very functional minds of some.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. If you don't think Obama should go ahead with prosecution of Bushco
Then yes, you are a Bush apologist. But, don't worry cali, it comes as no surprise where you are concerned.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm completely supportive of the U.S. prosecuting bushco
dearie. So please stop the vile and low habit you have of putting words in others' mouths. Not that it's surprising you'd stoop to gutter tactics and dishonesty. But hey, genius, we're talking about Spain here. duh. I see you have a problem distinguishing Spanish jurisprudence from American jurisprudence. Pretty basic stuff for anyone with two functional brain cells to rub together.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Bullshit. Get off your freaking high horse.
There are a lot of reasons to oppose a prosecution that have nothing to do with justifying what Bush did.

Gawd you whiny ass titty baby purists are a bunch of aholes.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. These stories seem to be crossing . . . however, Obama's failure to hold Bush/Cheney ....
responsible for torture is clear as policy now.

And, the legal guest on Olbermann confirmed tonight that this was related to him
as Obama's personal decision---!!!

Obama also went against the declared Nuremberg Trials rejection of "taking orders."

In violation of Nuremberg precedent, Obama evidently accepted that our own soldiers

were merely "taking orders." !!!!!

Wait until the next time someone tortures one of our soldiers!

Will we be for it or against it -- !!???
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
12. maybe SOS Clinton made the call to Spain.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. are you really that desperate to smear Obama?
And it's almost funny coming on the day that Obama is releasing the interrogation memos from DoJ.

A sad little effort.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Oh yay, so we're getting a memo
I'd rather see some prosecutions. Call me a perfectionist.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:51 PM
Original message
If Obama has been threatened, then he needs to go to court and say
so. If he is being blackmailed because of info obtained through FISA or any etc., then he needs to go to court and say so. If he just reamins silent, he is no safer. The Limpballs out there are constantly stirring up the "morans." If he is just stonewalling, then he needs to quit saying that no one is abve the law, because he certainly does not truly believe that alleged truth to be true. I am personally tired of many of his policies already. I am glad we are finally rid of Bush and the GOPers, but I did not know we were electing a Blue Dog or DLCer, BUT WE DID. I could tell by several of his votes in the Senate that he was not liberal enough for me. (Hillary is considerably more liberal than Obama or Bill.) However, his campaign rhetoric was exceedingly encouraging. I was finally convinced, but no more.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
27. In a perfect world..
that would be marvelous. But in the United States, our government has been doing the same thing for decades..but on a smaller scale and more covertly. Even if there is a Special Prosecutor, like Walsh was in the Iran/Contra prosecution, it will be so narrow in scope, that nothing will be revealed than what is already known..and the low hanging fruit will take the fall. "National Security" and "Classified Material" will see to that. It is who we are, and it is what we do. Long before Obama came along...hell..before he was even born. We have a history of taking care of those who go against the empire.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. If Obama has been threatened, then he needs to go to court and say
so. If he is being blackmailed because of info obtained through FISA or any etc., then he needs to go to court and say so. If he just reamins silent, he is no safer. The Limpballs out there are constantly stirring up the "morans." If he is just stonewalling, then he needs to quit saying that no one is abve the law, because he certainly does not truly believe that alleged truth to be true. I am personally tired of many of his policies already. I am glad we are finally rid of Bush and the GOPers, but I did not know we were electing a Blue Dog or DLCer, BUT WE DID. I could tell by several of his votes in the Senate that he was not liberal enough for me. (Hillary is considerably more liberal than Obama or Bill.) However, his campaign rhetoric was exceedingly encouraging. I was finally convinced, but no more.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. What's next? Obama was REALLY born in Spain? n/t
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. IndoSpanya
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. He's protecting the presidency
Which is his main concern. Not Bush. Obama loves himself some executive powers. He loves executive immunity.

He loves "state secrets", he loves unlimited spying. He doesn't appear to love rule of law quite so much.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I agree with your comment in the subject line
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Obama is confused . . . his job is to protect the Constitution and people's government . . .
Geneva Accords -- and moral precedents set at Nuremberg Trials --

not his office!!!

Obama is pushing national security, saving Bush/Cheney asses --

while doing violence to Constitution, Geneva Accords and the ill-conceived notion

of "taking orders" as an excuse -- correctly rejected by US at Nuremberg!!!



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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. It certainly looks that way.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. Agree . . . attack on people's government . . .
Edited on Thu Apr-16-09 08:42 PM by defendandprotect
Also, the "national security" alibi used by anyone has to be called what it is -- B.S.

The Geneva Accords don't say you can't torture anyone . . . except some.

It says that you can't TORTURE . . . period!

And, Obama is wrong to have done this -- it will only lead to more outrageous behavior

by the insane and paranoid right-wing.

Also noted that Obama went for the "taking orders" BS . . . while the Nuremberg Trials

run by the US were all about "taking orders" not being a legitimate or permissable excuse!

In other words, it is also treason to fail to instruct our soldiers, military officials,

private corporations, CIA/intelligence operatives of any kind, prison officials -- and

anyone else involved in WAR what the Geneva Accords entail -- and that we will honor them!


PS: Olbermann did a nice job on this tonight - congratulations to him . . .

DU seems oddly silent on this disgraceful story!

Meanwhile, as Coosby/? on AAR pointed out this afternoon . . . wait until the next time that

someone tortures one of our soldiers. How do we protest torture now?

And I'd say the same for the atomic bomb . . . having dropped two on Japan in barbaric setting

of precedent--!!!



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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. The Germans lost...
that's the only reason why the Nuremberg trials went on. We've killed and tortured way more than the Germans did, long before Bush came along, and before Obama was even born. I imagine what happened to Henry Kissinger is about as good as it will get, until the United States loses some of it's influence in the world. As long as we have the largest military on earth, I don't think that's going to happen. Even if Congress and/or the President acts, it will be a re-run of the Iran/Contra hearings. "Classified Material", and "National Security" will see to that.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. We are so far the most violent people on the face of the earth --- !!
Edited on Thu Apr-16-09 09:23 PM by defendandprotect
I completely agree with your analysis -- however, for whatever reasons, we did the
right thing at Nuremberg in setting principle --!!

We didn't, of course, prosecute the many who should have been held resonsible --
in fact, we seem to have taken in most Nazis under Operation Paperclip-!!
And they were put into founding of the CIA -- and also into the FBI.

In order to get Americans to wholly participate a lot of American "ideals" had to be
brushed up -- there was a lot of blowback from those democratic campaigns which the
right-wing sought to readjust after the war. The McCarthy Era was an attack on the
ideals of democracy -- largely successful in removing progressives and people of
conscience from office, from schools -- intimdiation of the press and the arts.

Civil rights, human rights, women's rights all began to explode in part because the
WW II "democratic" propaganda was so widely embraced. Segregation, Inc. they well
understood would be finished -- but more importantly colonialism everywhere.
And homosexuals actually came to understand how many homosexuals there were in the world!!

After the war, Great Britain was too weakened to continue their interests --
France tried in Vietnam -- and later we helped finance it.
But only the US has been able to continue its hidden agenda of suppression.

And, btw, when are we going to end our own MIC -- the military budget is insane!

I'd rather have some official record of all of this via hearings -- despite that I agree
with you on a disappointing outcome. Make them lie, make they hide - someday, hopefully,
justice will come!


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Nostalgic Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
33. O'Lielly is already taking credit for Spain backing off
:rofl::eyes:
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