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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:01 PM
Original message
Some (obviously) forgotten context regarding the release of the additional torture memos
Edited on Thu Apr-16-09 07:08 PM by Solly Mack
July 17, 2008

Ashcroft Suggests CIA Started Torturing, Then Sought Legal Cover

"But in a House Judiciary Committee hearing on Thursday, former Attorney General John Ashcroft raised the possibility that the CIA started torturing at least one detainee before any of the memos were even written.

If true, that would suggest that the CIA realized that the agency might be breaking the law and sought legal cover after the fact. Attorneys say that, hypothetically, this could make it easier to prosecute those who condoned or conducted the abuse before the torture memos were produced.

Intelligence agents from the United States and Pakistan captured suspected al-Qaida operative Abu Zubaydah on March 28, 2002. According to news accounts and congressional testimony, Zubaydah's interrogation began soon after his capture. His interrogation was reportedly particularly brutal, and he is one of three detainees confirmed to have been waterboarded."

U.S. may have waterboarded detainee before getting legal approval.

Abu Zubaydah and the CIA Tape Destruction

Zubaydah was water-boarded (tortured) a full 5 months BEFORE the Bybee memo giving the CIA "legal" cover.


CIA Videos Predated Bush Legal Memo

CIA admits waterboarding inmates

Waterboarded Gitmo Detainee Lawyers Up

"Meanwhile, in an overseas location, the CIA videotaped Zubaydah's interrogation, which included exposing him to waterboarding -- simulated drowning -- as a method of interrogation.

In 2005, the CIA destroyed the videotapes, an action currently under investigation by a U.S. attorney at the Department of Justice. "




The torture came first. Even if someone wanted to promote the bullshit excuse of "I was just following orders"....the torture came before the memos. The CIA was torturing people BEFORE the memos were written. So anyone claiming the CIA was only acting on what they were told was legal is - not exactly telling the truth.

NO (quasi, bullshit) LEGAL COVER.

Research it yourself. The torture came first.





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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Torture first. And then suit up with legal insurance years later.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep. They sure did. I remember it.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. That gives me a *little* bit of hope. Obama clearly said that those who would not be prosecuted
were those acting under the the orders given to them by the justice dept at the time.

I STILL don't buy the "just following orders", but the wording of Obama's gives me hope that at very least those who tortured prior to the memos will be held accountable.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That could always happen
Not saying it will...but it could.

I don't buy the thinking that the government can provide legal cover for breaking the law. That's dangerous thinking.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yeah, it could. We'll have to see I guess.
I agree with Greenwald though. The ACLU did a great job of getting these memos released and if we can push for prosecutions, that pressure will also come from below rather than above.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I'm glad the the latest memos have been released
Though they are too redacted to my thinking.I've read/re-read them and printed them out. Can't have everything, I guess (the redactions...as any redaction is too much for me)

I still have hope (beyond all reason - as I couldn't explain why I have that teeny, tiny smidgen of hope) that prosecutions will be possible at some time.

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. 100% correct n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thank you, malaise
I've read some short-memory comments tonight.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks for the memories n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I wish I didn't have them
:(
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I know, you've always been there pushing against torture :( n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thank you.
I give thanks to everyone who has been.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. YW and the people who have been tortured or have died
by torture appreciate your voice.

:)



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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R Thanks for the reminder.
:thumbsup:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Hey pleah. Thanks!
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thank you.
Big K&R.

This is going to require some repetition, but it's a very, very important point you are making.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I believe it will be repeated over and over again in the following days
and that's a good thing!

Thank you, bleever.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
40. After the Iraq War began, the amnesia
around its build-up blew my mind.

I think maybe we've got the same dynamic now, but with the possibility that remembering is now as powerful as the forces imposing forgetfulness were then.

I applaud you, because you've brought up a key reason why we cannot forget, and cannot even pretend that it's possible to just move on and think that this evil is permanently left behind us.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Have you seen these? Both excellent!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5474761
by davidswanson


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5473525
by Boondog


I fear that, without accountability, at another time with another President, the CIA will once again be cowering behind the cowards who write BS justifications for crimes, at the behest of even bigger cowards.

I can't think of a single good it serves to not prosecute the CIA (or Bush Inc). I've heard all the excuses people have given (some cowardly and self-serving... some downright delusional) and not at all in the best interests of the country or its citizens. How can allowing an organ of government to get away with war crimes possibly benefit America?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Solly Mack has been following this very carefully and as we have seen,
there is a very special amnesia that attaches to the topic of torture. Over and over again, we've seen the same story reported as if for the first time. Over and over again, the same Congress critters are surprised by something they have already been told five times.

It's uncanny and it's special to torture for some reason. :shrug:
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks Solly-
I sincerely believe that what was done will not go unpunished.

It may take much longer than anyone would like, and it may be more difficult than it should be, but in the end, those who did this will be held accountable.

We went down a path that we never should have traveled.



In all of the memos, did you see any mention of the children of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed... held by the CIA and used to make him talk?.... I'm still haunted by their fate....
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/09/1047144871928.html

thanks.

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I didn't see anything
but I could have missed it. Also, there are huge blobs of redactions where they talk about KSM.

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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. kick. and kick. and kick ... . This is NOT a time for "let bygones
be bygones"
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Thanks, annabanana.
You can't unite a nation over the tortured bodies of humans
Justice - not retribution...JUSTICE - must be sought.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
48. Wisdom!
Those words should be emblazoned in some permanent place here for all to remember.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Thank you
I'm not wise...just disgusted
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. Hasn't the CIA always tortured?
Isn't that what they teach at the School of the Americas? I think the only reason why they sought legal cover is because the Bush Administration planned on torturing on such a large scale. Reminds me of the findings Reagan signed after the fact of some of the Iran/Contra shit.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yes
but then people have always murdered....doesn't stop them from being charged and sent to prison. Just because the CIA got away with it in the past doesn't mean we should let them get away with it now.

They sought legal cover because they knew what they were doing was illegal. (in my opinion)





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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Why else would they repeatedly...
ask for clarity on the legality of every technique? The CIA or I should say the U.S. Government has never been held accountable for their crimes. And I don't think it will, until the United States loses influence in the world, allowing victims to get their justice. The American people are not the victims. If all the people we've killed, tortured over the years, were able to sue the government we wouldn't have a country, would we?
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Because each time they asked, they needed a new protection for a new way of doing it
Are you reading the memos?

The CIA would claim the detainee was attempting to resist the torture by turning his head or closing his mouth (actual examples) ...they would then ask the DOJ what they could do to remedy that

and if it was OK to cover the detainees mouth with their torturers hands to stop them from "resisting"

Maybe that's a big part of our problems as a country?...our government gets way with all kinds of crimes.

But we are also victims when our government breaks the law. If government corruption is systemic...and it is...then Americans pay for that corruption in all kinds of ways.


If Congress can be bought...and it can...then laws will reflect the best interests of those doing the paying and not the best interests of the people or the country.

If government is above the law, then they can do anything to anyone and it's OK. Well, there goes your rights.

Just because some people are willing to accept these things doesn't mean they aren't a victim...just means they are willingly aiding their own oppression...and not just theirs.








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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. The point I was trying to make..
is that they sought approval for every technique. This isn't just the CIA either. The military was involved, as was I think the FBI in Gitmo. We may be victims of our government, but it pales in comparison to what we have done to millions of people across the globe. Our government will not change until the time comes when a small percentage of 'we the people', start exercising what little power we have. We can't even bother picking up the phone to call our Congressperson or Senators.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I agree...it does pale!!
And I agree...it won't change until we start exercising the power we do have

And Yes, it was the military as well.

And Yes, the FBI was there...and they reported the abuse they saw....it was the subject of an ACLU document.

Whew...that's a lot of agreeing. :)
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. An excellent explanation
This should go without saying, but apparently it needs to be said over and over.

Nicely done.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Thanks!
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. I remember it too...
Thanks...
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. You're welcome!
Thanks!
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. kick n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. Legal Cover
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #27
45. The dog ate my immunity memo
:P
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
29. Scott Horton wrote a column about that last week
He pointed out that first there was the torture and then came the memos, to justify/defend/legitimize the torture.

He also noted that the army investigation into the death of a detainee who had died in the custody of a CIA agent concluded that the detainee had been murdered. The case was handed over to the DOJ in 2004 - nothing has come of the case yet.

April 10, 8:43 AM
Licensed to Kill

Yesterday CIA Director Leon Panetta emailed thousands of subordinates his hearty greetings for Passover and Easter. Appropriate to the season, perhaps, his message was filled with talk of torture, foreign captivity, and doubtful acts of contrition. “CIA officers do not tolerate, and will continue to promptly report, any inappropriate behavior or allegations of abuse,” he wrote. And this rule was not to be evaded by proxies, either: “That holds true whether a suspect is in the custody of an American partner or a foreign liaison service.”

He also spoke about the decommissioning of the system of black sites constructed in the Bush era to hold prisoners outside of any form of accountability. “I have directed our Agency personnel to take charge of the decommissioning process,” he wrote. “It is estimated that our taking over site security will result in savings of up to $4 million.” Some of these black sites are now the subject of criminal investigations seeking to ascertain whether crimes were committed there. One wonders what sort of care Panetta’s agents will take to preserve evidence of what transpired there, and what the criminal investigators think about the CIA “taking charge” of the process.

Panetta also provided assurances that “No CIA contractors will conduct interrogations.” Many of the most serious cases of abuse of prisoners involve CIA contractors. I am aware of a single case in which a CIA contractor was actually prosecuted. Remember Abu Ghraib? The Defense Department’s investigation concluded that the most serious offenses against detainees there were committed by contractors. As Major General Antonio Taguba noted, several of these individuals had clear-cut and continuing high-level connections to the intelligence community. Some purported to be contractors for the Interior Department, but the facts strongly suggested a relationship to the shop Panetta now heads. This group of contractors were investigated by the military, which turned over a full portfolio of evidence to federal prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia, recommending prosecution. What happened? Nothing. In the meantime, however, a group of young NCOs and enlisted personnel who acted under the influence of the contractors were court-martialed. Another demonstration of the Bush Administration’s total perversion of our justice system.

Or consider what Congressional Quarterly’s Jeff Stein calls “The Mysterious Case of Mark Swanner.” The Army’s Criminal Investigation Detachment studied the death of Manadel al-Jamadi (photo left), who died in Swanner’s custody, and concluded that he had been murdered. Swanner, a long-time CIA officer, was fingered as the perpetrator, and the case was referred to the U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia for prosecution. That was 2004. So five years later, what has happened? Nothing happened.

Note the contrast: the Bush Administration aggressively prosecutes a bunch of grunts. But the military’s investigation showed that these enlisted personnel and NCOs were actually operating under the direction of a mysterious group of contractors. And it also concluded that a CIA officer was responsible for the one clear-cut homicide to emerge from Abu Ghraib–an individual who was literally tortured to death. The bit players are prosecuted, but the instigators, the individuals who bore real responsibility for what happened? They’re handed over to the crack “fast-lane” prosecutors in Virginia, the most political crew of a highly politicized Justice Department, and nothing happens.

Why? The Bush Administration issued a license to the CIA to torture and kill. The Justice Department itself was smack in the middle of this process, offering assurances that there would be no prosecutions. Moreover, a prosecution, had it been brought, would likely have resulted in disclosure of many uncomfortable details—how Bush cabinet officers approved not only techniques, but even specific torture programs, for instance; how the Justice Department itself connived in the entire process. A prosecution might have brought the truth close to the surface. Can’t have that. Is there any chance that this process will be reversed by the Obama Administration?

So far, every sign runs in the opposite direction. Panetta’s pastoral missive offers absolution: “Officers who act on guidance from the Department of Justice—or acted on such guidance previously—should not be investigated, let alone punished. This is what fairness and wisdom require.” He adopts the “go forth and sin no more” approach.

But start with the fact that much of the worst abuse occurred well before the first of the Justice Department’s torture memoranda, from August 2002. How exactly were CIA agents relying on “guidance from the Department of Justice” that had not yet been issued? They weren’t. Note that the Justice Department’s letter in response to the ACLU’s FOIA request stated that the 92 tapes that the CIA destroyed (in yet another criminal act) were made between April and December 2002. The Justice Department acknowledges that these tapes would have contained evidence of torture. Therefore we know that the CIA was implementing the Bush torture program a half year before John Yoo came in to craft his infamous torture memo. Moreover, Yoo was brought in to write only in response to push-back from CIA officers and others who properly labeled these techniques as unlawful.

Now the CIA and the Obama Justice Department have locked arms in an act of open obstruction: on Thursday they wrote the judge overseeing the FOIA litigation that they will produce no evidence from the period before the issuance of the Justice Department’s opinion. It’s not that such evidence doesn’t exist. It’s that the evidence would establish criminal conduct for which Panetta’s defense of “reliance on advice of counsel” doesn’t work. We are witnessing something akin to an institutional invocation of the Fifth Amendment, and in an act of ultimate perversion, it is being asserted by prosecutors.

Leon Panetta’s promise of absolution is being implemented—by way of cover-up. And the Eric Holder Department of Justice is complicit at every step along the way.

I am sympathetic to Panetta’s predicament to some degree. I strongly advocate accountability, but it would be unreasonable to focus on ground-level agents who were implementing decisions taken high-up in the government. The accountability process should focus on those who adopted torture as a matter of policy and those who pushed it through over internal opposition. That includes the lawyers who have become the targets of a criminal case in Spain, who are prime actors in this process. And it includes a handful of senior figures in the CIA, several of whom have emerged as Panetta’s closest advisors. As John Sifton notes in today’s Daily Beast:

Accountability… should focus primarily on executive-level directors, such as the current CIA Deputy Director Stephen Kappes and Michael Sulick, the director of the CIA’s National Clandestine Service—both high-level officials in the CIA’s operations directorate when the worst detainee abuses were committed. Investigations should focus also on high-level executive officers in the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center (CTC) who are still at the agency, for example, G— —, a former deputy to Jose Rodriguez, the chief of CTC back in 2002-2004 and who now enjoys a prestigious CIA station-chief posting in Europe.

These individuals are giving Leon Panetta plenty of advice today, and that advice serves their interests, but not those of the CIA or the United States. But the real burden falls squarely on the shoulders of Attorney General Eric Holder. He took an oath to enforce the law. The torture controversy is the darkest moment in the entire history of the Justice Department. The only way forward involves exposing what was done to the ultimate disinfectant–bright, unrelenting sunshine. Repressing the facts won’t keep them from coming out. It will only make the process longer, more painful, and more damaging to the reputation of the institutions involved.

http://www.harpers.org/subjects/NoComment


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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Yep!! Thanks for adding that!!!!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I want to believe that there will be justice
I really want there to be justice.



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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Me too! I need it.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Did you catch Olbermann?
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yes! I truly enjoyed it
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. I guess we're not crazy, merh; at least not alone.
:hug:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. I teeter on the edge, bleever
the frustration with the lack of action - I held out during the bushco years with the hope that we could take back the white house and someone would right the wrongs and hold the criminals accountable.

how long do we have to wait for justice?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
32. absolutely
they did whatever the hell they wanted to, the rest was cover.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Yep
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
46. You are absolutely right on. The torture came first.
K&R
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. My hat is off to you!
I've been looking all over DU at some of the comments - and YIKES!...and there you were, fighting the good fight.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. That was probably a mistake.
Did you catch Amy this morning? The first segment after the headliness was Scott Horton. He brought up a number of issues that were interesting -- including the problem of the memos being produced months after the torture started.

:hi:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. No. I didn't catch it.
How anyone in government could even think people wouldn't know the timeline....unreal.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Here's the link if you want to see:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Thanks!!!!!!!!
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Just wanted you to know I watched...enjoyed it very much!
I'm thinking about doing a brief history of the little guy...you know, the CIA...those little guys. Those poor, put upon little guys who are always being picked on by those big guys in government.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
51. Thank you for that important reminder.
Edited on Fri Apr-17-09 12:51 PM by Hell Hath No Fury
I was starting to reel from all the "But...but...but the CIA were just following orders/they didn't know they were torturing" bullshit post I have been seeing here today.

Nothing but a bunch of rationalizing bullshit.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Yeah. I want to say I was shocked by some of the comments I've read
But I wasn't....those comments were no less incredible, however.

And you're right...pure rationalization. Pure bullshit.

Bush Inc used that "good faith" excuse.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Yesterday was really something. I was called everything
and someone asked me why I hate the troops -- and they were serious! lol

Did you see Horton on Amy's show today? He gave me a lot of hope, actually, that this legal position of the admin's will fold up like a cheap card table. :)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-18-09 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
60. The "Just following orders" excuse is bullshit on a number of accounts
We did not allow it when we prosecuted the Nazis at Nuremburg.

And furthermore, the CIA never had orders to torture, even after there were memos available that allowed them to torture. Their orders were to obtain useful information, not to torture. There were much better ways to go about it -- within the boundaries of international and moral laws.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-18-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. It is...complete bovine caca
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