Keith's Comment To Obama On His Torture Decision - Is There Anyway We.....

[global1]

can get that in hard copy - turn it into a petition - and get all of us to sign it that voted for Obama because we expected him to follow the laws of this land - and send it to him?

I don't know if he really has a sense of how upset the American people are of this.

Then I heard somebody posit that - maybe he is using the specter of prosecuting BushCo for torture and war crimes - as kind of blackmail - to get them to be more cooperative with him. Holding it over their heads that if they don't lay off him and give him the cooperation he needs to get things fixed - he will lower the boom on them.

If he is doing that - I think he is no better than them.

Although given the attacks from Cheney and Rove and the RW talking heads - I don't think it's working.

[Thrill]

1. He never said Bush Administration officials wouldn't be prosecuted

[Political Heretic]

4. "nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."

It's true, he did not say the specific words "I will not prosecute Bush administration officials." However, he did make the other statement, and prosecuting Bush officials is pretty hard to reconcile with a belief that nothing can by gained by laying blame for the past.

[Thrill]

6. Again, both Holder and Obama were very careful with their wording.

They didn't say the previous administration wouldn't be prosecuted. They did say that for the CIA agents. If the administration was being ruled out, why wouldn't they say it?? Wording is everything with a smart politician and lawyer like Obama and Holder.

[bdamomma]

10. very insightful comment I guess sometimes you have to read between the lines.

Obama and Holder are not ignorant, but I hope they will not let those bush thugs get away with their crimes.

[Political Heretic]

17. Reading between the lines is also known as seeing what you want to see.

But hell.. hope you guys are right.

[Political Heretic]

13. I don't disagree that it leaves room for the future - however, the language doesn't give me hope

If you don't want to rule anything out, you could just say, "we're not ruling anything out." But saying, nothing can be gained by looking back to the past, combined with all his other statements about moving forward, putting the past behind, and how his administration has now stopped all these things (as if that alone closes the book on America's torture and lie about it chapter) really leave me feeling like the change of actual investigation and prosecution is slim to none.

I hope that's not the case.

The bottom line is this, if the Obama administration doesn't prosecute torture, then the Obama administration owns torture. I reject this notion that you can simply ignore the past abuses of constitutional authority and just "move forward" like nothing happened.

[stillcool]

12. Did he say that today?

[Political Heretic]

14. Yes. I am quoting his statement from today.

[stillcool]

21. I just logged on...

seems like I've missed a lot! I'll go rummaging around and see if I can find it. Thanks!

[Windy]

7. Exactly right. He just said that the ones who followed orders would not be prosecuted

I remember the uproar on DU when only the underlings at Abu Gharib were held accountable and not the ones in charge.

[Political Heretic]

15. "nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."

[Political Heretic]

2. The constitution is not a fucking bargaining chip.

Prosecute criminals. Period.

[Lint Head]

3. If he does not prosecute obvious crimes he will not be a two term President.

This is a major problem. It will not be forgotten by the Democrats that tend to vote independent.
:dem:

[doctor jazz]

8. It won't be forgotten by Democrats who lean to the progressive/liberal side of the spectrum either.

Not seeing much 'change' here (and no I am not a DINO or any of the other nasty names some folks here use for anybody who doesn't fellate the president nonstop)
\

[stillcool]

16. Are you worried about a two-term Presidency?

I'm worried that he'll make it through the first term. I've never understood the threats of 'next time'. Every time a Democrat in Congress votes against the people's interest that's the first response. Doesn't seem to work. I don't know why people have such a hard time getting their representatives to do what's right Now. Why is Obama the only one that can start an investigation? Why doesn't the legislative branch do it's job?

[empyreanisles]

29. No. Most people are not fixated on this. They care about economy, health care, etc.

It's the truth. They are disturbed by it, but it is too far removed from their daily lives to really make an impact.

Only the truly far left progressives are going ape-shit over this.

[EFerrari]

30. The truly "far left" that objects to giving torturers a pass?

Wow.

How truly "far left" do you have to be to care about the rule of law, anyway?

[Blackhatjack]

5. Have to Agree with KO's Special Comment ... Ignoring Past Torture Won't Make It Go Away

I find it hard to believe that giving the perpetraters a pass from prosecution will make the commission of past crimes fade away.

In fact, it will become precedent for a less principled occupant of the White House.

KO is right... even if you don't get a conviction, you must prosecute -- its the right thing to do to regain moral clarity and standing vis-a-vis the rest of the world.

[malaise]

9. 100% correct n/t

[frazzled]

19. Prosecuting it won't make it go away either

That's like saying the death penalty deters crime. If punishment caused crime to end, there would be no recidivism among criminals ... and there would be no more crime.

It's like saying that the Watergate prosecutions prevented any further executive branch wrongdoing.

Case in point: John Poindexter, convicted of multiple felonies in Iran-Contra (it was later reversed, which is what would happen in attempts to prosecute CIA operatives for DOJ-sanctioned crimes, as pointed out by John Dean tonight--weren't you listening to that part?) ... ended straight back in the Bush administration, in DARPA Information Office, planning all the spyware stuff that is the other subject of debate today.

Let's get real folks: revenge doesn't work; the argument that the only way to prevent further torture is to prosecute it is specious: it will happen if we elect twisted governments, whether Obama prosecutes this last crew or not.

Both Fineman and Dean seemed to be downplaying the prosecution angle in their statements, Dean even suggesting that the legal case would be hard (he cited a Watergate precedent).

Let's commend Obama for explicitly forbidding torture, thereby setting a precedent that has never been explicitly uttered before (it didn't have to be), and for opening up these memos to public scrutiny . If this ever happens again it will be OUR fault, not his. It was our fault that it happened in the first place, because we (meaning we the people of the US) knew all about it and didn't care.

[angstlessk]

24. War crimes WERE deterred by WWII war crimes tribunals...

and they CAN be deterred again if they are as public and precise as they were.

[EFerrari]

31. You seem to be confusing revenge with our justice system.

And what evidence do you have that these practices are not in use today?

And, torture has been illegal in this country for many years, no matter what Obama said today or didn't say.

[Bluebear]

11. Keith must be a PUMA!!! Or a troll!!!!1

:crazy:

[FLAprogressive]

22. Tombstone him!

[chill_wind]

18. Two petitions you can immediately sign (links):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5472423

[amborin]

26. i actually agree with O's position: what good alienating the CIA rank & file at a time like this?

we can stop future torture, but going after the staff seems a losing strategy

[anaxarchos]

20. Obama said none are above the law...

He was required to say it (whether he actually said it or not). It is just about the only element of the flawed British "democracy" that ever rooted on America's shores.

The law says that being ordered to commit war crimes is no excuse. That's a problem.

If he does not prosecute those who ordered war crimes, that is much more than a problem.

There is nothing more fundamental... and all the "reasons" and rationalizations in the world don't mean diddle.

[Pisces]

23. I think a lot of people on DU must have whiplash from the " I love him, I hate him" flower game

everyone is playing with Obama right now. One thing I think we could all learn from Obama is to wait and see how it shakes out. A lot of you sound like Newt on the Pirates while Obama was silently and prudently taking care of the situation. Obama does not owe us an explanation of his every move before he makes it. Get a grip and lets see how this thing plays out. He has already done more than most by releasing the memos.

[anaxarchos]

25. Sadly, you are very wrong...

There are no double secret handshakes or "shakeouts" on this one. Perversely, you are right about "explanations". No explanation will do. At this point, he honors his oath or he doesn't... he does his duty or he doesn't. It is precisely that black or white. Everything else is piss in the wind.

[EFerrari]

32. That's exactly backwards.

[Hubert Flottz]

27. KO is right on all counts, IMHO...

If Obama don't resolve this matter by the time he's up for reelection, I think he's toast. I know I can't vote for anyone who would let this slide under the rug.

[Hydra]

28. Obama's going to say what he has to to string us along

And then he'll say later: "I said that we would not be looking at this matter in favor of going forward."

Which is EXACTLY what he did say. The Dem leadership seems to have found our secret button: "They're just saying that now because they have big plans for later"

Uh-huh.

[mwei924]

33. This message board does not = most American people.

No shit this place would be pissed. Average Americans? Probably more worried about paying the bills right now. I'm not saying it's not an important issue-- but I doubt polling the country would yield the same results as DU. It's not something people other than the passionate activists would spend more than 10 minutes on.