Obama is shooting for the top regarding this torture issue.

[Raven]

Now, I don't know this for sure...no one does... but I am a lawyer and I recognize what I think may be going on here: Obama has given cover to underlings who "followed orders" (I realize how loaded that phrase is) so that he will have a clear and good shot at the higher-ups who created this abomination.

There is something very methodical and carefully thought-out about this and I think we should all reserve judgment and let Obama play it out. Remember, there is time and it is better to get it right than to move too soon and loose it all.

I know this is an awful and very emotional issue. But, please, have a bit of patience with it. There is plenty of time to prove me wrong, Obama wrong and to see that justice is done.

Don't give up quite yet on this.

[Duer 157099]

1. Just as long as you don't say anything about keeping powder dry

I'm just getting tired of doing this over and over and over and over and over.

Y'know?

[Raven]

7. I know how you feel but I think Obama is a deliberate man and

he is going to get it right. After all...january 20th to April 20th is 3 months. Give the man some time and pray that he gets it right.

[EFerrari]

84. Do you find praying over politicians a productive strategy?

That doesn't sound very lawyerly, Raven. :)

[bdamomma]

2. I only hope so we have been jerked around for too long.

[cliffordu]

43. Yeah, 90 days is completely fucked up/.

[NoSheep]

55. Fucked up as far as time to sort all this out legally? Get all the evidence against them

together and create a case that will stand up to any and all scrutiny? That will stand up to corporate owned media? Please be realistic. I've been around long enough to know, 90 days isn't long enough to get a decent backyard garden off the ground while you already have a full time job.

[cliffordu]

57. I forgot my sarcasm tag.....

[NoSheep]

65. I'm so happy to hear that! I've been reading so much impatience

that I am assuming the worst of everyone I guess. I'm worried, but Obama is just too smart to let this opportunity pass. I have to believe it is all going to come together.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. My real hope is to see Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bybee, Addington, et al. in the dock.

That won't be easy; it will be politically tricky and it will take time. But if it takes letting some CIA guys off the hook to get at the big guys, I can live with that.

[calimary]

88. My hope as well. ALL of them facing charges. As high up as it goes.

It's amazing how low the pursuit of justice ranks in some corners of this country.

[NanceGreggs]

4. I'm with you, Raven ...

Keepin' my eye on the prize.

[Raven]

9. Hi Nance...you and me both!

[NanceGreggs]

26. Forgive my ignorance, Raven ...

I never knew you were a lawyer.

I'm a court reporter (not in your league, but familiar with the system).

We both know how important patience is in this game.

This is chess - and the need to think seven, eight, nine moves in advance is crucial. There seem to be too many who see this as checkers, and believe that a piece moved to the other side of the board that quickly results in a "KING ME!" will inevitably end in an overall victory.

Get it right, get it air-tight, get it aligned in fact and law - then go for the throat.

And that's the name of that game ...

[kentuck]

79. I'm with you two.

:-)

[aquart]

5. I have not given up.

I want him to prove clever and crafty and outwit all MY enemies. I want to believe there's a plan in place. But I don't at the moment see how he can get a good shot at the higher ups by allowing shelter for the lower downs.

[Lint Head]

6. I hope you are right because I do not want Obama to be a one term

President. Allowing criminal torture that has definitely resulted in death is criminal and should be prosecuted. I there is no prosecution there is no law in this country.
:dem:

[stillcool]

80. Why does it matter if Obama..

is a one-term President? Isn't it time to stop expecting the 'next election' to fix things? When are people going to realize that the government we have has not and will not act. Why should they? It's not like 'we the people' are going to do anything.

[glinda]

8. Yes. Thanks for saying this. Please let us wait. Obama needs the CIA and

Intelligence community. It keeps us safe. It keeps his family safe. Please please calm down.

[rug]

10. You don't give immunity to underlings until after you arrest them.

[Raven]

14. Well, that's not quite true. You need people to feel free to talk.

Don't you think there may be some "elite Repubs" pissing in their pants tonight? I would be if I were them. I think Obama's message to them is clear and damn bloody.

[rug]

21. The classic federal technique is to arrest and then threaten eons in jail.

But if they talk, less or no time. That's not quite the same as absolving them in advance so they are free to talk.

[Raven]

25. I know, you are right but let's just watch this and suspend judgment for awhile.

[rug]

28. OK

[bdamomma]

11. sorry but I am posting this everywhere.

ACLU PETITION.


https://secure.aclu.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=Nat_Petition_SpecialProsecutor&s_src=UNW090001ACT&s_subsrc=homepage&JServSessionIdr009=yunb0p16j2.app23a

[DS1]

12. Agreed, and happy 5th Rec

[BlooInBloo]

13. Flip... Flip... Flip...

I hope so.

[Raven]

16. You betcha! Gonna be a thrill to watch!

[glitch]

15. K & R nt

[Barack_America]

17. I agree. nt

[tridim]

18. "I don't know this for sure...no one does"

That's why I'm LMAO at all these chicken little threads, no DU'er knows what Obama has planned for the BushCo endgame.

As for myself, I have no reason to not trust Obama. Ask me again next year.

[Barack_America]

20. "As for myself, I have no reason to not trust Obama"

A-fuckin-men. Hallelujah, etc.

What the heck ever happened to having a little faith in people?

Sheesh.

[Raven]

22. and I'm not asking for totally blind faith here...just some patience

and an understanding of this guy's mind. He is not going to be rushed. I think he is going to be sure the gates are locked behind these bastards.

[bdamomma]

19. kick

[NoSheep]

23. Am I correct in thinking the decisions and go-aheads given by the Justice Department

will have to be proven unconstitutional before anyone could be convicted of a crime? I keep hearing this and it makes all the sense in the world. It also explains why you can't get the CIA first. I just don't think it makes any sense at all to start anything before the case is open and shut. It would be a waste of time and money before the best legal minds we can get have done their work and that is going to take some time.

[bigjohn16]

24. Releasing those memos is a good indication

he has no intention to allow the prosecution of anyone. If he was going to give the green light to an investigation he just lost a major piece of leverage that could have been used to turn multiple former Bush officials. The statement that he will not pursue torturers at the CIA doesn't give him a better position it makes it worse because now he'll have to go back on that word to force testimony from uncooperative CIA agents. He really hurt the chances of any possible investigation into torture and the authorization of torture by showing his hand. He also hurt himself by not standing up for the rule of law and allowing torturers to go free. It's a sad day for America and for our future. When "I was just following orders" becomes a viable defense then anything is possible with a friendly Justice Department.

[arcadian]

27. You have this dead wrong.

I plan on holding Obama's feet to the fire on this one. You know what happens when you wait? People lose interest and the issue is swept under the rug and forgotten about. Not gonna happen. I don't care if I'm 70 years old standing out in front of the CIA headquarters with a sign that says "CIA practices illegal torture", I will not let this rest. Hell, I may go out there next week with that sign.

[KoKo]

31. You should do that and we should keep presure on to give Obama cover

to do what Raven is suggesting. I thought she made a good point and Glenn Greenwald was suggesting a little of that in his update.

I also agree with another poster who said he would be in danger if he came out now and said he was going to prosecute ever last one of the SOB's who did this. I think we keep pressure up, but not give up hope that something is going on behind the scenes. I know how many times we have all waited patiently (Fitzgerald in Plame Case) and been disappointed. But, Obama is in a very dangerous position and has to move carefully. The Wingnuts are still having a field day with Palin and their Tea Bagging...so let them keep busy with that while things go on behind the scenes. :shrug: That's what I'm thinking and I'm one of those DU'ers who was out there before we invaded with signs marching.

[arcadian]

37. That's all I can hear when I see people who want to wait.

It's Fitzmas!!! :puke:

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. I hate to say it but

I have a feeling that Obama has agreed to ignore Bush's crimes in exchange for the republicans ignoring anything they could go after Obama with.

Just a hunch.

[cliffordu]

45. 90 days. 90 days. The deadbeat hasn't done ANYTHING

Except allow the release of the most damning evidence of WAR CRIMES against the Bush regieme that could be imagined.

he moves in Obama time, not yours.

Let's rehash this next year, after the worst of it is exposed.

I predict the Hague......

[arcadian]

46. Obama's time IS my time.

He works for ME and you and all of us. There is no "his time".

[NoSheep]

47. If we did it your way I'm afraid it would be too soon to get what we want..

That's why we elected HIM President. If it CAn happen...it will. He's a smart man. He knows what he is doing. No one here wants to let anyone off the hook.

[cliffordu]

58. Your hubris astounds.

90 days.He's obviously a failure.

[Spazito]

29. I read it exactly as you do!

Am happy to give a big recommendation to your OP!

[wiggs]

30. OK, I hope so. But why then doesn't he clarify what he's doing? nt

[KoKo]

32. see post 31 for one possible explanation...

[Spazito]

36. He is doing the right thing by not speaking out in the way we might wish...

because, unlike bush, he is not going to take 'jurisdiction' from the DOJ, the proper authority for this. I remember when Bush and Cheney spoke about the Libby case while it was ongoing and the outcry, and rightly so, that he was interfering with the case.

[wiggs]

71. Makes sense and I'd like to think so. But still, he could say that just as easily as

you just did. He could say...."political expediency is no reason to prosecute someone and for the SAME reasons political expediency is no reason NOT to prosecute somebody."

[Bluebear]

42. Shhh! It's a secret!

:silly:

[NoSheep]

48. What? In a personal letter to someone you know? Please don't take offense

but what do you expect him to do? What you seem to want would be exactly the opposite of what we need. The people need to keep raising hell, yes. We need to continue a climate of demanding justice...but A Criminal CASE that cannot fail MUST BE MADE before this will work and that cannot happen overnight.

[Hanse]

33. If some low level CIA analyst got convicted of charges...

and George W. Bush didn't...

That would be an injustice just by itself.

[yowzayowzayowza]

34. Obama certainly izn't gunna let responsibility for torture fall back onto him. n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

35. I agree...he will do the right thing at the right time.

K&R

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Um. If there is no investigation how is anyone going to be charged?

[NoSheep]

49. Do you think there isn't an investigation going on?

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. Well I thought I heard Holder was not going to investigate?

[Gregorian]

39. I'm so glad someone else senses this.

It does give concern that he may not enforce rules for some. But from the moment I heard how he worded this in terms of those who took orders, I had a strong suspicion that there were targets that are comprised of those who gave orders.

My guts says to worry, but my brain says he's a good man and a highly skilled constitutional scholar.

This should be very interesting. He knows just how woven this mess is.

[cliffordu]

40. I was going to post EXACTLY the same thing.

THe information just keeps leaking out, in what is obviously a managed, measured way to maximize the exposure of how bad it was under the Bush Regime, so when the time comes to get the big fish the country as a whole will understand the truth and not be able to let bygones be bygones........

Obama operates like this, And when he skirts speaking directly to something like this while allowing the evidence to be released, he OBVIOUSLY has a plan, and it ain't "moving forward"

I expect a special prosecutor after the new Abu Graib (sp) rape and murder pictures show up.

[Norquist Nemesis]

51. Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct!

(hate to use the word "right" anymore when correct serves quite nicely)

Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct! Please be correct!

[natrat]

52. don't hold your breath

[cliffordu]

56. Really. After all, it's been a whole 90 days.

it's not like he has anything else on his plate.

[MasonJar]

44. Obama has no intention of charging anybody. Cheney and Bush

have admitted their crimes; there is no need for investigation, just a trial.

[NoSheep]

HOW will a trial be won without first proving the Justice Dept acted

improperly? That case must be made first before the top can fall.

[NoSheep]

50. dupe. self delete.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

53. ok, lets go with your idea, a trial

We got an admission(which a lawyer could spin a 1000 ways) and minimum of proof

Now how do you plan to get a conviction?

Wouldn't it be wiser to ensure you got some rock solid evidence before making a case of such importance that this would be?

[NoSheep]

67. I feel like tattooing this on my forehead and hiring a skywriter.

:argh:

[amborin]

54. excellent points

[Shanti Mama]

60. Couldn't agree more.

All DUers should read this.

[malaise]

61. I think you're right

and I'm not giving up.

[depakid]

62. "There is plenty of time to prove me wrong"

My understanding is that there are statutes of limitations running on these matters....

[Psychic Consortium]

63. You are correct. nt

[HughMoran]

64. You might be right, or the rage-aholics might be right

I am always sure of one thing - and that's that I'm not sure what he's going to do.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. It doesn't make sense. If you want the bigshots, you threaten the goons, not let them walk.

Not to mention the lack of simple morality in giving the monsters a "get out of jail free card" as Amnesty International put it.

[Mari333]

68. what you said. nt

[leftofthedial]

69. I hope I'm wrong,

but I think he has no intention of holding *anyone* at any level in the previous administration accountable for any crime.

[Sedona]

70. chill...

[winyanstaz]

72. Thank you for giving me some hope,,

I was ready to throw in the towel on Obama..now thanks to your insights on the matter I think I shall just wait and watch some more. I hope you are right.

[ProgressiveFool]

73. I hope it turns out that way, but what makes you think it will?

Thus far, Obama's DOJ has been doing its best to cover up Bush admin crimes in regards to warrantless wiretapping and FISA, so why wouldn't that hold here?

One possibility is that Obama wants to keep his options to use warrantless wiretapping open, but not so for torture, and in that case, different behavior would be possible. But that can't be known, and for now, the safer position to take is that he desparately wants this, too, to go away.

I am still happy to have voted for Obama, and I am not a sky-is-falling fair-weather-friend. Releasing the memos in the first place is a huge step and very much to Obama's credit. I am tempted to subscribe to the notion that he is playing rope-a-dope, and that he's hoping that outrage over the memos will force his hand and give him no choice but to prosecute Yoo, Bybee, Feith, Gonzalez, Rice, Tenet, Powell, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush himself, but I think it's a pipe-dream to believe that.

I think that Obama is too comfortable playing within the system, and right now, the system (establishment politicians and media) is working to perpetuate a two-tiered system of justice, where the powerful break laws with impunity, and are forgiven in the interests of establishment harmony, and the little guy gets busted for buying a bag of weed.

But I am patient, and will wait and see.

[wiggs]

74. This is about torture, but there's a bigger picture issue of power abuse that

the current administration must address somehow in all of this...and the bigger picture connects the torture issue to spying, seigelman, gagging sibel, changing scientific reports, lying to congress, no-bid contracts, politicization of justice department, purging of the cia, election tampering, etc..

Those responsible for all these ARE at the top. Obama may not get them all on every count, but I hope the top criminals are a) exposed, and b) prosecuted for SOMETHING

[Coffee and Cake]

75. Who needs action when you have hope.

[Bluenorthwest]

76. Well it seems if he's smart enough to play the gambit you claim

he'd probably expect that until he shows his cards, there will be many voices demaning he take action. It seems to me he'd be counting on that. Incorporating that into his tactics, in fact.
Perhaps you know the statutes of limitations on the Bush co crimes? I think they are fairly short, so the 'plenty of time' argument needs to be backed up with facts about the actual time limits, I'd say.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. Is that why the ACLU had to sue to get the memos released?

All part of some secret master plan in this new era of "transparent government"?

[stillcool]

81. Absolutely...our government..

has plenty of shit to keep under wraps, and they won't give anything up willingly.

[EFerrari]

85. Same master plan where Obama personally gets to decide who broke the law

and who did not.

[Lars39]

78. I've been looking on this as "priming the pump".

Sure the underlings could be prosecuted,but then it could all be swept under the rug. But as more and more information is revealed, the public gets educated about it, making it easier to prosecute the ones planned it and oversaw it.

[EFerrari]

82. I'm not giving up. He'd have done better to allow the discovery process

to go ahead were it not for his political considerations.

[A-Long-Little-Doggie]

83. I'm with you, Raven.

He knows what he is doing, and he is going to do it right.

I hope.

[madeline_con]

86. Nothing will come of this. Count on it.

[EFerrari]

87. Don't give up on us. I can't speak to Obama or his admin or the Feds

but there are too many of us for this to go by.