OMG, I heard on the BBC World Service that 30% of women in the US millitary are raped on the job.

[Odin2005]

And 90% are victims of sexual harassment of some degree. The most sick thing is that the women are threatened with being court-martialed for "dereliction of duty" or for some other BS reason if they speak out about it, at least going by the story of one woman they interviewed.

:puke: :cry: :grr:

[ejpoeta]

1. isn't that great!! we go out to other countries trying to make them more democratic

and to treat their women better... and this is how we treat our women in uniform!!

[Muttocracy]

109. wonder how women are doing in Kuwait these days... nt

[seabeyond]

2. yes. we have known it for a while. not a priority. thanks.... n/t

[youthere]

3. When I was in the service...

(Coast Guard) I was stationed at a small boat station and had a male crew member come in from liberty, into my room, drunk off his butt and try to crawl in bed with me. He held me down and fondled me. I started screaming bloody murder and he came to his senses and left. Incidentally, NO ONE came as a result of me screaming. I went to my CO the next day who not only REFUSED to follow up on it, but told me that if I wanted to play in a "man's world" there were just certain "things" I was going to have to "expect". Keep in mind, there were only 2 other women stationed with me, and both of them lived off base and were in a different duty crew.
I was only 18 at the time, and didn't really know what my options were, and even if I had I would have been too...I don't know, I guess, defeated maybe? so I never took it any further, but it didn't stop the men in my unit from making life miserable for me for daring to "tell" in the first place. I put up with it 8 months before I finally got a transfer to another duty station.

[Odin2005]

5. "NO ONE came as a result of me screaming." That perfectly encapsulates the whole problem.

Good that you got out of their all right. :hug:

[youthere]

7. ...

:hug:
That's the first time I've talked about that in almost 20 years. :hug:

[Orrex]

4. The 30% sickens me, but to be honest I thought that the 90% would have been closer to 100%

[youthere]

6. I think the other 10% just refuse to say anything.

[get the red out]

8. I wonder how this compares to other Western countries?

I would be interested to see. If they have a respectful military, then it could remove all idiotic excuses for making American service-women's lives hell. I am sorry, but "boys will be boys" just doesn't cut it. "Boys" need to be decent human beings.

Of course the Right has to love this because they just want women out of the military, no matter how they are run out.

[Odin2005]

10. It's not just a right-wing thing, unfortunately.

The "boys will be boys" BS came out here on DU in the date rape flam-war a few days ago. Why does it seem like I'm the only guy that thinks us guys should act like gentlemen instead of ogres? :puke:

[get the red out]

20. I agree with you

I have seen people that call themselves liberals but when faced with human rights abuses against women will suddenly be extreme supporters of "religious freedom" over human rights; or "culture" over human rights, or just say "you cant' change things over night" or "that's what you have to expect". Lefties use different excuses to support misogyny than the idiots on the right, but some of them are clearly not comfortable actually seeing women as true equals to be respected as fully human with rights in all cases.

I just wonder how Europe is doing with this issue, women in the military. If they are doing better than we are, we need to try to learn how.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

38. I think everyone is against date-rape.

I don't think in that thread that everyone necessarily thought that that particular scene was date-rape.

[noamnety]

53. Somewhat infuriating response there.

"people here oppose date rape - they just think it should be okay to screw a woman who is so intoxicated that she is barely conscious."


kinda like how some people oppose torture, but think it should be okay to water-board people, hang them by their wrists, and hook electrodes to their genitals.

[seabeyond]

56. very good point. i wish people

would actually read, think about what you are saying.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

57. I haven't seen the scene.

I was under the impression they were both pretty wasted and had normal, drunken sex, which I don't think is date-rape.

[noamnety]

59. The woman was barely conscious.

In other words, if the man had been similarly incapacitated, there wouldn't have been any sex.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

99. I stand corrected, then.

I certainly won't defend that.

[patrice]

98. I taught highschool Seniors Psychology for 8 years, heard it all, believe me Young Women NEED

to be more responsible too. If they're never held to account for the stuff they do on purpose, they will never be worthy of our respect. Now that doesn't mean that I think ir-responsible women should be raped. It means, in order to identify the true victims, we, Women AND Men, need to be honest about what is really going on.

[Vidar]

92. I somehow doubt the figure in the Israeli army are anywhere near this

high. I'm not disavowing the atrocious number of atrocities perpetrated toward their neighbors by this comment.

[patrice]

9. There is a GREAT deal of alcohol flowing in the military. "Shit happens."

[Odin2005]

11. That's no excuse.

If the rapists were punished instead of protected this would happen far, far less often.

[patrice]

12. No ma'am, that's not an excuse. It's a description.

Except in the absolutely most diminished cases of mental capacity, there is NO such thing as no-Choice, and, hence, no degree of Responsibility and, in regard to the issue identified in the OP, those choices and responsibilities INCLUDE Us, so yes, INDEED, rapists should be prosecuted, so that ANY and ALL others (rapists or rapees), faced with similar or, co-relant, choices (e.g. alcohol and other behaviors) make better Choices.

[Odin2005]

14. Hey, I'm a sir, not a ma'am!

:P

[patrice]

65. Pardon me!!

My issue-related assumptions are showing!

[Odin2005]

68. "Issue related assumptions" are the problem

It's easy for many of us guys to blow stuff off as "femi-nazi rantings of man-haters" until a women close to us is affected.

[get the red out]

21. And if a cop stops a military person for a DUI

does that get them off the hook for breaking the law in that case? Does the judge dismiss all DUI charges against military personnel due to the "shit happens" defense reserved especially for them?

[seabeyond]

29. shit happens? so we ignore it, deny it, dismiss it, pretend it doesnt happen? shit will

keep on happening with that attitude, hence the problem with our military

your attitude is exactly why our women are being abused in military

[Odin2005]

31. Exactly! n/t,

[patrice]

66. I'm not saying ignore. Just recognize the factors involved.

And what will be said about the problem.

[seabeyond]

76. i certainly recognize the factors. your post though is significantly lacking in any "factors"

at all.....

[patrice]

84. I wasn't trying to write a dissertation. Simply making a casual observation based on personal

experience.

Little high on yourself, aren't you?

Who died and made you THE arbiter of what is an acceptable post and what isn't?

You have something against ALL people accepting responsibility for what they do and don't do? Or is that something that only applies to men?

I did nothing to evoke this kind of response from you, ergo, there must be something wrong with you.

End of "discussion".

[seabeyond]

93. you say shit happens, i reply. you say factors, i say where. hm.....

pretty simple. not tough to follow

[noamnety]

54. Why I object to the "shit happens" phrasing

The passive construction puts the blame vaguely on the workings of the universe, instead of holding the individuals rapists accountable.

It's not "shit happens" - it's "troops are committing these crimes."

[patrice]

69. I was trying to suggest that they also NEED alcohol counseling. Fat Chance!!!

My experience, alcohol and sex are the highest priorities for non-combat situations. Duty hours were something you endured, so you could go drinking with friends later.

[patrice]

71. P.S. OTH, I may be a bit of a blue-nose, because, though I DO drink some, it appears to me

that a significant portion of the population of the U.S. are dependent upon alcohol.

[noamnety]

80. We aren't talking about sex here.

We're talking about rape and sexual harassment.

[Romulox]

13. Do you really think you can turn dehumanization off and on when it's convenient?

Our military's mission is to attack civilian population in wars of conquest.

[seabeyond]

30. exactly. n/t

[yodermon]

58. War is a form of Rape after all,

yep, hard to turn it off.
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/eln06_war.html

[patrice]

94. Excellent, Excellent! point. Women who think they're hanging out with the boy next door

are stupid. I say that as someone who used to go drinking with 4 Marines.

Now, before someone jumps my ass, being stupid doesn't mean you deserve to be raped. Being stupid means you need to try to learn more and be more honest about other people and about yourself, so that you can function and avoid things such as rape

IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.

Sometimes being honest, knowledgeable, and responsible gets you raped anyway. What we need to do is figure out which is which and who is who, so that EVERYONE can accept the just consequences of their own behaviors.

[noamnety]

104. That last line needs some explaining

"What we need to do is figure out which is which and who is who, so that EVERYONE can accept the just consequences of their own behaviors."

Are you trying to say that some rape victims need to "just accept it" as a "just consequence" of their own behavior?

If not, maybe you could find a more precise way of phrasing your thoughts there.

[patrice]

110. Oddly selective reading there. "...just consequences..." as in justice.

You're really reaching for it to try to make just accept out of "just consequences".

Maybe you could try some more precise reading? Or is it always someone else's fault?

[noamnety]

112. When a rapist rapes someone, that would be the rapist's fault. No?

I'm trying to figure out if the reason you capitalized EVERYONE was to imply that it was sometimes the victim's fault - that rape can be a "just" (as in justice) consequence for a woman's behavior.

Or maybe when you said everyone, you just meant the rapists. The more precise reading is that you meant rape is a just consequence for the woman's behavior - therefore I'm asking if you could clarify your intent. If you prefer not to, that's fine.

[patrice]

117. Everyone, as in both men and women.

Look, it would be absurd to think "All 'victims of rape' are innocent."

It would be equally absured to think "No 'victims of rape' are innocent."

These false dichotomies do no justice to reality that, were it possible to validly identify all factors in all circumstances, would reveal degrees of innocence relative to guilt, for both men and women, ranging from nearly 100% to nearly 0. Justice REQUIRES as close an approximation of reality as is possible under the circumstances. There is no Justice without reality. No matter the outcome of a given prosecution, denying anyone's, any man's, any woman's, responsibility/guilt does NO service to the truly innocent.

[Triana]

105. you think a RAPIST is going to accept the consequences of his own behavior?

no matter how honest/responsible his victim is?

You live in another world.

[patrice]

113. No, I've been talking about a process called Justice that seeks the truth.

Did you actually even read any of my posts? It's pretty obvious that you didn't, because I repeated the point about just prosecution frequently.

But what I actually said probably doesn't matter, or perhaps it's a little too nuanced for you, or you're not really interested in discussing the whole truth and this ridiculous "conversation" is really just a pep rally for an angry, bitter, vengeful cadre to get its jollies by attacking anyone who shows up and doesn't march along screaming, "All men are rapists. Any accusation any woman brings against a man is true!" so you just go right ahead and take the position that women are ALWAYS 100% innocent victims; that's just as much bullshit as pretending that anyone would think that REAL honest-to-god rape should not be legally prosecuted. This kind of characterization of the position of others is referred to as "reductio ad absurdam" and it's stupid.

[havocmom]

15. But the howling from the winger 'patriots' has long been about gays in the military

and how bad they were to 'the troops'. They are pretty damned quiet on the treatment of female troops by hetero males in the military, but they sure don't want to risk some gay guy hitting on their sons. Guess their daughters mean squat to them?

How many Arabic speaking linguists forced out of the military because they are gay? No way of knowing how often troops were put in MORE danger than need be because of failure to translate something in a timely manner, but 'gotta get teh gays' outta the military to protect the sons of America! Troops in the long run, shortchanged because of the policy on gays.

But we are OK with rapists. Daughters are just S.O.L.

Fucking short sighted, narrow minded asshole bigots!

Yeah, all the emoticons in the OP and more.

[Odin2005]

16. one digusting anectdote I heard on the radio...

...was that a lot of the male soldiers think the women shouln't be allowed in the military and are only there as replacements for prostitutes. :puke:

[havocmom]

22. Would sadly believe it.

When one local girl decided to go into the military (in bush years), I wept. Still get ill when I think of her, growing up rather naive in a family where females are cherished and respected as equals, then sent into a world she had no concept of.

She is not unique in any way and that is really sickening. So many young women thinking the military will appreciate them as individuals and help them reach their potential. Yeah, and a lot of serious abuse, if not outright violence, on the side from their 'comrades in arms'.

[get the red out]

23. I'm sure it is just GAWD'S way

so far as the right is concerned.

[havocmom]

28. Most likely. They sure use their god as cover for a lot of barbarism. Their 'cover' wears thin.

I get physically ill when a hater I personally know tells me how 'Jesus LOVES you!' When you know them and know how far from the master's teachings their daily interactions really are, it makes you wanna go into the temple and wreck havoc on the moneychangers ;)

[get the red out]

39. Oh no!

That Jesus guy, he just reeks of SOCIALISM!!!!!

The right need him only for branding purposes.

[KharmaTrain]

17. "Sluts & Nuts" Defense Still At Work...

Testosterone flows in the military...always has. I recall the female contractor who tried to speak out about her abuse and ended up locked in solitary and then out of the country. Did anything come of her suit? It was pretty damning, but seems like the little attention she got in the corporate media was a shrug of the shoulders and not much more. It's shameful we have a military culture that attempts to justify torture and dehumanizing...looking at rape and sexual abuse as the "spoils of war".

:kick:

[L0oniX]

18. I'm sure recruiters don't mention this. ...assholes!

Doesn't felony rape call for a 20 year sentence? Protecting America from who? Women shouldn't be in the military so it's their own fault if they join up?

I will never trust the military or those who have served or are serving in it.

[Blue_Tires]

19. who can they turn to?

more often than not i'm guessing rape reports are suppressed or covered up

[noamnety]

34. Yep. And the women get to pay for their own forensic rape kits.

Tricare doesn't cover that.

[Marie26]

81. Not to mention, many of the women who do report end up dead.

Is There an Army Cover Up of Rape and Murder of Women Soldiers?

by Ann Wright

The Department of Defense statistics are alarming -- one in three women who join the US military will be sexually assaulted or raped by men in the military. The warnings to women should begin above the doors of the military recruiting stations, as that is where assaults on women in the military begins -- before they are even recruited.

But, now, even more alarming, are deaths of women soldiers in Iraq, and in the United States, following rape. The military has characterized each of the deaths of women who were first sexually assaulted as deaths from "non-combat related injuries," and then added "suicide." Yet, the families of the women whom the military has declared to have committed suicide, strongly dispute the findings and are calling for further investigations into the deaths of their daughters. Specific US Army units and certain US military bases in Iraq have an inordinate number of women soldiers who have died of "non-combat related injuries," with several identified as "suicides."

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/28/8564

[Odin2005]

101. There are no words...

:cry: :puke:

[biopowertoday]

24. There have been a few articles about this issue posted

over the last few months in LBN. They sink quick with little discussion.

[Odin2005]

25. After the sicke rap-apologism here a few days ago I'm not suprised.

Sad to see so many self-proclaimed "progressives" that don't seem to have problems with violence against women. Sometimes it seems like I'm the only guy who gives a damn. Then again most guys don't have a close friend or loved one that is the victim of rape. :cry:

[atommom]

27. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of them DO, They just don't know it.

You'd think by now that we would have come farther on these issues. :(

[biopowertoday]

35. Glad I missed that one. Sorry to hear

about your close one who has gone through a horrible experience. Thanks for your support on this issue.

[marketcrazy1]

26. no means NO

I am a man and i have ALWAYS respected a woman's right to change her mind no matter how far things have gone. I might ask why but in the end it is HER choice. if the woman says stop, you should stop. NO is a line i have never crossed and never will.....

[seabeyond]

33. it isnt so hard, is it. once a line is drawn for an individual of what is acceptable....

and thank you for your post.

i dont think our boys are being taught as in times past.... by fathers, peers, culture as a whole.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

36. Uhh, you're wrong.

Rape and sexual harrasment was MUCH HIGHER in times past. Don't say bullshit that isn't true.

[seabeyond]

40. it was higher than 1 in less than 4....? n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

45. The official number of rapes and harrasment cases

prosecuted were less than now. However, several studies have shown that, much more than now, rape and sexual harassment was severely under reported and that the rate in the past is actually greater than now.

[seabeyond]

46. suppositions for conclusions. i can easily say that appears rapes are terribly underreported

today too.

rape is not an easy thing to report. date rape is nigh impossible to report for a female.

it is a concept many men will never get. it is not to make less, or insult the male. psychologically, why should they be able to understand, unless they have been in percarious position themselves. then i would imagine it would be much more common for them to have empathy. otherwise, from my experience, i cannot see males able to get it.

it is a horrible problem today that needs to be addressed. i am not much into comparing. to me, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. that simple. to me, posts like yours does little more than dismiss the problem today.

[Odin2005]

62. I agree with you completely.

I was one of those guys who "didn't get it," until my physically disabled friend was raped by a "friend". Every time someone, a guy usually, tells her to "quit thinking about it" I want to punch the person for being an uncaring, unempathetic ass.

[marketcrazy1]

37. I have no sons

but I do have nephews and as they matured i have taken it upon myself to point out that a woman deserves respect and violence is NEVER to be used ( never hit a girl even if she hits you first, just walk away. ) my father taught me that. I have also told them to respect the word NO in sexual situations, sex is not something you "have" with a girl, it is something you share with each other. if she says no you need to STOP! period. respect the girl and respect yourself.

[seabeyond]

41. and you are so important to them.

i have two brothers, and i know my father would talk to my brothers, as they grew up, appropriateness with girls, but then i was talked to about my behaviors too, as a girl.

lines were clearly drawn. lines of respect, acceptable behavior, character.

our older males are so important to our youth. they are needed as example.

again, i will reiterate since some will think i am male bashing, it is equal for our girls too, to get this from our older women. i think there is such a disconnect from our youth, and our own principles, that they are not being handed down.

[backtoblue]

32. Disgusting

How lonely for those women to have to endure such tragedy and have no one who will listen...:grouphug:

[gblady]

42. sadly......

it's right in line with the statistic that one out of EVERY 3 women
is sexually abused in their lifetime.

[sampsonblk]

43. Thats an unfair assessment

First, the percentage is dependent on the definitions of "rape" and "harrassment." And the definitions have been very very broad.

Secondly, military environment is a lot different from our civilian lives. I think its unfair to apply the same expectations. There is a LOT of casual sex at some installations. There is a lot of college dorm stuff that goes on at some posts. And there are a lot of soldiers who use the legal system as a way of settling disputes. You can ruin a soldier's career with one accusation.

I have known people who've made false accusations, and I have known people who were abused while in uniform. Its just plain screwed up either way.

Maybe you have to be there and see it to understand how different a lifestyle it is.

[alarimer]

44. It does not matter how "different" it is.

Wrong is wrong. No sexual harassment and assault is EVER acceptable by ANYONE ANYWHERE. You cannot excuse it or justify it based on a few false reports. In most cases, people do not report it because of the pressure they feel "just to go along". There are far too many criminals and assholes in the military as it is now.

[sampsonblk]

52. Oh brother

Its not my place to justify it. But you can't use the same standards of measurement that you'd use in civilian life because its completely different. You said as much in your post.

There is intense pressure not to report it. Often that pressure comes from female servicemembers who either don't believe the accuser or are sick of the large number of false/dubious reports.

This aint civilian life. Its a different life with different issues that most civilians don't get to see.

And those "few false reports" as you call them, will destroy the careers of the accused. Once accused, you are ruined.

On the other hand, people who make honest accusations are subjected (in some cases) to harsh retribution. Its just plain screwed up.

[lukasahero]

60. "Once accused, you are ruined" as opposed to being just ducky "once raped"... eom

[sampsonblk]

67. Is that what I said? (nt)

[noamnety]

63. I'm a veteran, and that's a bunch of crap.

"Once accused, you are ruined."

Seriously, that's crap. Often "ruined" means a letter goes in your file.

Sorry, but a letter in the file or getting busted a rank is not equivalent to ruined - and is not appropriate punishment for rape. And that doesn't even begin to address the chain of command covering for you. At least in the civilian world, a person's boss can't step in and decide it's not worth the police pursuing a rape charge.

And in the civilian world, a rape victim has the option of leaving an environment where she has to live with and work with her rapist 24/7.

[sampsonblk]

74. You know better than that (nt)

[noamnety]

78. You mean like

Maria Lauterbach's rapist? When she got an order of protection against him, what exactly happened to "ruin" him? Nothing. And she had to remain living and working on the same base as him. And when she disappeared, the Marine Corps Times speculated that it might be because she'd lied about the accusations. (She was found killed, burned, and buried at her supervisor's home.)

Military investigators have said they did not take action against Laurean before he disappeared because he and Lauterbach appeared to have "a friendly relationship.” WTF @ it being a "friendly relationship" when she's gone to the authorities to get a protection order against him?!

---------
or maybe you mean this: Marine Cpl. Brittany Thornton says a member of her unit in Okinawa, Japan, raped her on Christmas Day 2005. She reported the incident right away, pressed charges and was put on antidepressants, which she says her commanding officer saw as reason to remove her from her post in weapons maintenance and assign her to a desk job. The administrative position, however, gave her access to court documents and allowed her to look up her own file. Thornton says she was appalled at what she found.

The CID (or Criminal Investigation Division) agent in her case had taken the liberty to completely revise her account of the assault. “She made it sound like I told her that we went out and got drunk and had sex and I didn’t really want to, and afterwards I regretted it,” she says. “It was nothing like what I had said.” Meanwhile, her case “went nowhere,” she says, and her assailant eventually received nothing more than a “slap on the wrist.”

Thornton was allegedly left to live in the same barracks as her assailant for a full six months after her assault, despite repeated requests for a transfer.

----------
or this:
Airman 1st Class Cassandra Hernandez, 20, says three of her fellow airmen gang-raped her during a late-night party at Pope Air Force Base in Fayetteville, N.C., in May 2006. She says she reported the incident and sought all of the help available to her. Nonetheless, she wrote in a letter to the governor of Texas, her native state, “I felt like no one was looking out for my interests.”
Hernandez says she stopped cooperating with the investigation when charges were filed against her for “lewd behavior” and “underage drinking.” The three men accused of gang raping her were offered testimonial immunity in exchange for cooperating with the prosecution.

---------
Those are anecdotes - and they represent the overall pattern. When I say MOST often, even those found guilty don't have their lives "ruined" - that's based on statistics. Even ignoring the ones that aren't followed up on at all, of the ones found guilty in 2006, 292 cases (out of 2,974 reported) resulted in a court martial. Meanwhile, 488 cases resulted in an “administrative punishment,” such as a letter of reprimand, a discharge from the military, forced resignation or a reduction in pay or rank.

[madeline_con]

72. You just said there's more rape because it's easier to get away with,

due to the pressure not to report.

Other females don't believe the assaults are occuring?

False accusations NEVER ruin civilian lives! :eyes:

[sampsonblk]

73. That wasn't my point, but yeah that makes sense

There are plenty of incidents that go unreported for the reasons I mentioned above. I have presonally known of at least three that I can recall. All three just sorta went away.

[Odin2005]

61. Typical BS "witch-hunt" accusations by rape apologists.

:puke:

[sampsonblk]

107. Are you suggesting that I support rape?

Get a grip on yourself.

[Odin2005]

114. I'm saying you are spewing memes that traumatize rape victims by belittling what they went though.

[patrice]

116. Give up. This is a stupid hysterical thread. We're supposed to believe **ALL** women are innocent

babies, whose vulnerabilities, physical and mental, entitle them to "justice" that turns a blind eye to their responsibilities. This is called Infantilization and anyone who TRULY cares about the dignity of women does NOT participate in it.

I suspect there are other motives at work in this thread than those presented for public consumption in this absurd charade.

[madeline_con]

70. Please! What a load!

We all knowe what rape is. Stop trying to excuse the assaults because there's "casual sex" or "college dorm stuff" going on.

I don't have to "be there" or "understand the lifestyle" to know where the line is drawn between consensual sex and rape.

[sampsonblk]

108. You are being irrational

I am relating my experience to you. I didn't choose it. I saw what I saw. How on earth does that cause you to conclude that I am excusing assualts?

[patrice]

88. WHAT? are you implying?? No woman has EVER tried to use sexual attraction to get what she wants.

[Scout]

47. i know someone who is recently back from iraq...

he says there are signs and a popular saying about the women there being "one plane ride away from being ugly again."


edit for spelling

[leftofthedial]

48. Army strong indeed.

That's horrible. Inexcusable.

[Arugula Latte]

49. I'll bet almost all of us women, whether in the military or not, have anecdotes that fall

on a spectrum of abuse from groping, attempted rape, actual rape, etc. etc.

I got a "walk by" grope at a concert when I was TWELVE, and that was the first of a few incidents that have happened to me. I can think of other stories my friends have told me where men felt entitled to use their bodies for whatever purposes they wanted.

I've got a daughter and I'm going to teach her to kick any man who tries that in the testicles as hard as she possibly can.

[friedgreentomatoes]

50. I sometimes wonder

if the repubs insist on keeping DADT in place to save straight men from gays or the other other way around?
Going by this article, looks like the second is true. :puke:

[Aristus]

51. The Pentagon must be THRILLED! What more proof do we need that our troops are a bunch

of raging, red-blooded heterosexuals! No homosexuals in THIS country's army, right?


:sarcasm:
:grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad:

[ehrnst]

55. And they're not allowed to get emergency contraception, nor abortions at military hospitals

Thank you, Bush.

They and their dependents can, however, get breast enhancements & liposuction paid for by the military:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/07/26/040726ta_talk_schaler

[ismnotwasm]

64. My daughter became a hard ass in the military.

She still is, for that matter. Spent free time working out. Took absolutely no shit at all. Was hit on a lot until she got a reputation for don't bother. Didn't party with them. Stayed by herself or other women when possible. Guess what the favorite word for her was? Sargent (insert favorite here) You have a choice of over a hundred gender specific pejoratives. Made a tough situation ever so much worse.


She never used gender as a reason not to do anything. Volunteered for whatever she could in Afghanistan. She's a decorated combat veteran. A lot of the men do have respect. It's the ones that don't that do this shit, and get away with it.


She's out now, says the military is full of what she calls "swinging dicks". My son is now in Iraq. So far their military experiences are quite, quite different.

[sampsonblk]

75. Women at war face sexual violence (BBC) with *link* to article

Women at war face sexual violence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8005198.stm

[sampsonblk]

77. Women at war face sexual violence (BBC) with *link* to article

Women at war face sexual violence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8005198.stm

[noamnety]

79. It would be nice

if our commander in chief would address this on a major US network.

Ticks me off that the BBC covers assault in our military and our media is reporting about Obama's dog.

[empyreanisles]

82. It is naive to throw women into a mix where they are outnumbered by men ...

and not expect sexual tension.

Men are attracted to women and want to have sex with them. It is hard wired and will not change EVER.

[Scout]

90. yes, men want to fuck women, it's hard-wired, blah, blah fucking blah

that does NOT give any men the right to harass women, take advantage of them when they are vulnerable (drunk), give them date rape drugs, kidnap and rape them, etc. etc. ad nauseum ad infinitum.

what, men can't control themselves when their dick is hard? is that the gist of your point? that's bullshit and you know it.

"boys will be boys--and too many of them will be assholes"

real men know how to treat women as an equal and with respect. real men are the ones who get the sex that men are "hard wired" to want from women, voluntarily.

[Odin2005]

103. I agree completely. I find that sentiment nauseous, and I AM a guy.

[seabeyond]

95. rape is hardwired? you sure tried softening it with language. some men might

be bothered by this conclusion

[Odin2005]

102. Sex is hardwired, rape isn't.

[ehrnst]

123. Rape is not hardwired - it's taught. And it can be drummed out of them in the military

Just like other impulsive behavior. Are soldiers given a pass when it comes to other kinds of violence on fellow soldiers?

The same shit was shoveled when the miltary started integrating racially - you have to expect violence, etc.

I think that if the military wanted women to be treated with respect, they would enforce that behavior, just like they enforce other behavior. But I think that the brass resents women, and they turn a blind eye.

[ehrnst]

124. So Gay rape must be hardwired, too, right?

And I don't see the DOD ignoring even Gay ORIENTATION, let alone rape or harrassment.

[crimsonblue]

83. I'm going to throw the bullshit flag on that one..

Undoubtedly, there is an unknown and horrible percent of female military members sexually assaulted on the job, but there's no way it is as high as 30%. To me, that percentage fails the sniff test.

[Marie26]

87. Those are the DOD's own statistics.

Rapists in the ranks
Sexual assaults are frequent, and frequently ignored, in the armed services. - http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-harman31mar31,0,5399612.story

"UI, VAMC Researchers Study Women’s Risk Of Rape In Military" - "The researchers found that 79 percent of participants reported experiences of sexual harassment during their military service; 30 percent of the women reported an attempted or completed rape."

http://famedetroit.org/79-harrassed-30-report-rape-or-attempted-rape/

[Scout]

91. if the reported rate is 30% the actual rate is probably much higher n/t

[noamnety]

121. I don't think that's the formal reports.

From previous articles I've read on the subject, I believe that's the number of veterans that - now that they are out - report having been raped. Most of them would not have filed a report at the time it happened.

[patrice]

85. Sick of this fucked-up shit about Women in general as the Inevitable Victims.

Yes, rape DOES happen.

But so DOES a whole lot of "other stuff."

Justice is impossible unless Everyone owns their part in it; that does not preclude punishment for the guilty. It only makes it more Just.

[Marie26]

86. Huh?

Yes, let's not post about the high rate of sexual assault in the military, because "other stuff" happens too! It's always such a disappointment when otherwise progressive people get so... aggressively defensive on this issue.

[patrice]

96. Did I say not to post something? Seems that was coming from someone who thinks I disagree

with the principle that all rape should be brought to justice.

I just also disagree with this

INFANTILIZATION

of Women that says we ARE ALWAYS the victims, that no woman ever tries to manipulate any male, and we're not capable of figuring out what appropriate sexual behavior is, and we're not capable of avoiding rape nor of actually defending ourselves if necessary, ERGO

every rape IS IN FACT rape.

That point of view serves neither women nor men. In short, it's dysfunctional and dangerous.

[babsbunny]

89. Link?

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. No idea if this is true or not but.....

I remember a University study that had similar numbers. Some of the questions were Have you ever had sex when you really didn't want to? Have you ever had sex after initially saying no? if yes was answered to either of those questions then they were classified as having been raped. I would be interested in seeing the numbers of attempted rapes that were included and what criteria was used to classify the victims. Having said all that from personal experience rape is a hugely under reported crime.

David

[ChelseaCenior]

100. First of all

100% of the women who are raped are victims of sexual harassment, secondly the women who report rape just like in the rest of the free world, go through some sort of trial to convict the potential rapist, and the women are evaluated and asked if they are OK to stay and perform their duty, but it up to their superior officers. As a woman I am very defensive abut my rights and inequality and mistreatment, Women are not treated exactly as men are in the military, but they are not out to get us.

[AwakeAtLast]

106. Thank you for your service

and welcome to DU!

Have you served overseas? I am the wife of an OIF Veteran.

[1]

111. 30%??? i call bullshit. i don't care what you think you heard. present some proof...

actual fucking proof.

your assertion is a fucking lie.

[Odin2005]

115. Another idiot in denial.

[noamnety]

118. The assertion is within the range of what's been widely reported

In 2007, the Department of Veteran’s Affairs reported that 20 percent of female veterans seen at its facilities nationwide said they had been raped or sexually assaulted while serving. Other veteran studies put the incidence of rape at 30 percent: nearly one-third of all women in the military force. Furthermore, the DoD admits on its website that 80 percent of rapes in the military are not reported because women (and the men who are raped, too) fear ostracism, punishment and loss of careers.

http://www.msmagazine.com/Fall2008/TheScandalOfMilitaryRape.asp

"Of the 6.8% of women and 1.8% of men who indicated they had experienced unwanted sexual contact, the majority - 79% of women and 78% of men - chose not to report it." -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7950439.stm (note - those percentages are for a single year).


"The scope of the problem was brought into acute focus for me during a visit to the West Los Angeles VA Healthcare Center, where I met with female veterans and their doctors. My jaw dropped when the doctors told me that 41% of female veterans seen at the clinic say they were victims of sexual assault while in the military, and 29% report being raped during their military service. " -- Congresswoman Jane Harman http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-harman31mar31,0,5399612.story

[Quantess]

119. I wish the OP had these links, for more credibility.

Because the OP has no links, and nothing to back up the numbers, I would never rec this thread. I love to rec threads, but not this one.

[noamnety]

120. In fairness, sounds like they heard it on tv or radio.

Makes it harder to have a link on the spot.

I've run across the stats before, so I knew I could find them again when I went looking. Unfortunately I had the stats from a talk I was asked to give about women in the military (my longer post above with incidents described came from my notes from that talk). I say "unfortunately" because it wasn't til I arrived to give my speech that I found out the full topic wasn't "Women in the Military" - it was "A Celebration of Women in the Military."

:rofl:

[w8liftinglady]

122. A few resources

new book by a female soldier
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8005198.stm
http://digg.com/d1N95D
"In 2003, a firestorm of media reports and investigations, prompted by an anonymous whistle-blower at the Air Force Academy, exposed the prevalence of sexual assault in the armed forces and its training centers. That same year, the results of a study conducted by Dr. Anne Sadler of the Iowa City VA Medical Center found 28 percent of female veterans having suffered MST while on active duty."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-harman31mar31%2C0%2C5399612.story

"Numbers reported by the Department of Defense show a sickening pattern. In 2006, 2,947 sexual assaults were reported -- 73% more than in 2004. The DOD's newest report, released this month, indicates that 2,688 reports were made in 2007, but a recent shift from calendar-year reporting to fiscal-year reporting makes comparisons with data from previous years much more difficult."

These statistics are horrific.My son was a soldier in Iraq in 2003-2006.He still doesn't talk about it.God only knows what he has seen and done.I hope there is an aggressive campaign to counsel ALL soldiers,but especially females,after deployment.