I've found the people really responsible for torturegate.

[originalpckelly]

Walk over to a mirror. Take a look at the person. That person is responsible for torturegate. Yes, that's you, if you're an American.

After all, who else allowed our government to conduct its business in secret? "BUT I VOTED AGAINST BUSH!"

If you think the only measure of democracy is voting on one day in a little booth, then you are truly out of your fucking skull.

"It's not, I sign petitions too!"

Do you make it a regular practice to consider matters like that on the spot in any other area of life? Why should you in an election or a petition? Even if you voted against Bush, you probably voted for a Democrat who did the same secretive BS or wanted to. Elections and petitions, the tools of "democracy" are cop outs. Democracy is not what we think on one day every couple of years, it's what we do the rest of the days.

I can guarantee you that government would be open to the public if we really wanted it to be. We don't it to be, we want someone else to make all the decisions for us, so that we can go fuck around with our new iPhones, HDTVs, SUVs and McMansions. Look where that shit got us. Now people are fucking homeless and the government tortured people in secret.

We need a little common sense. That means we stop believing people when they tell us there's a Santa Claus, and that he doesn't torture people. It also means we stop believing people when they say there's a tooth fairy, and he's the master of the gay agenda. (Although, he's quite well dressed and his pad looks stylish and sleek.) It means that we stop believing there's an easter bunny, and that he's capable of making good decisions in secret.

Democracy and secrecy in government are mutually exclusive. You cannot have one with the other. If someone has the power to determine what to keep secret, then anything can be kept secret.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGyObuH3WTY

[Hubert Flottz]

1. Gawd had a hand in it!

The Repubs swear, that Gawd wanted Bush to be pResident, so I guess this is ALL Gawd's fault...

[leveymg]

2. Who would meet your standard? Political assassins? Isn't that what they want?

You say we're all responsible for torture because we're Americans. Every single one of us. Any exceptions? Not one? If we're still a torturer regardless of any legal action we might take, what choice does that leave us? What of those who commit political violence against the state? Hardly seems logical to assert that armed insurgents are guilty of complicity? But, consider this - if political violence does not succeed at overthrowing the regime, it will likely justify even wider torture and other abuses. No, that's just playing into the hands of those who want to expand repression.

I don't think your political construct is valid because it doesn't allow for any constructive choices, at all.

Is there anyone who measures up to your impossible standard of moral righteousness?

[originalpckelly]

3. My impossible standard of moral righteousness?

:rofl:

Holy shit that's a good one. Opposing torture or government secrecy is not an impossible standard of moral righteousness.

Torture is only the side effect, it's like having a runny nose when you're sick. The actual cause of the cold is a virus, not the runny nose. You can treat the runny nose, or you can figure out a way to knock out the virus.

The virus in this case is the secrecy in our government. Take a look at the top of this memo:
http://72.3.233.244/pdfs/safefree/olc_08012002_bybee.pdf

It says TOP SECRET. That's the problem here. The torture, well, that's just the runny nose.

I think there is no one but us to hold accountable for the secrecy in our government. My impossible standard of moral righteousness is really just fucking common sense. It's like letting someone know your credit card number, and allowing them to spend what they want, with your only knowledge being their statements to you, not statements from the credit card company.

[leveymg]

5. You said we're all guilty, regardless of how we voted or any other political action we took.

Or, did I misread you on that?

As for secrecy, I agree, it's what makes this sort of thing possible. It removes the judgment of the executive from the normal political process. The result of such flawed decision-making is catastrophic. The secret decision to torture weakened the United States - the abuse and overuse of the classification process is a threat to the national security, and in those instances it's the responsibility of the military and the intelligence services to resist unlawful orders. That was a dereliction of duty at CIA and in the military, and the responsible officers should be held publicly accountable along with those who issued illegal orders.

We'd be a far safer (and more just) country if we simply made it illegal to classify policy documents.

[annabanana]

9. Well. . we ARE guilty of being unable to stop it.

That much culpability we have to admit.

[leveymg]

12. I freely admit guilt on that charge, Your Honor, and throw myself on the mercy of the Court.

Unless, of course you know of any plausible defense? Really, any ideas about anything we could do differently?

[HillbillyBob]

4. Some of us keep up near steady letters to the editor,

and letters and calls to our senators and reps and anyone else 'in charge' while tring to get others to do the same. I also do a lot of reading and research and try to wake up fellow citizens. Though some times I feel like I'm talking to the wind.
We all need to keep up the pressure and call for Sunshine laws in our government from the village level up to the presidents office.

[DiverDave]

6. Wow, just WOW!

So, I'm a torturer, news to me.

I've heard some BS in my time, but this is the topper.

Just how in the hell was I supposed to stop a guy that did these things?
The guy who ordered him?
Oh, you must think that every decision is ran by ME??


Yeah, I'm the cause, and I DID it...from the cab of my truck in Delaware.:eyes:

Guess you need to step away from the medicine cabinet for awhile, then read what you wrote.

[rucky]

7. I confess.

where do I turn myself in?

[Laelth]

8. I certainly feel responsible.

After all, the torture was done in my name. The rest of the world has a right to condemn us, collectively, for treaty violations and for imperialist hubris.

However, I must point out that we don't live in a democracy. This is a republic. We elect people to act on our behalf. We don't get a say in every decision our government makes. If a public official makes a decision we don't like, our only recourse is to either stage a bloody revolution or vote them out of office when they come up for re-election. Congress could have impeached Bush, of course, but individual constituents can't make their elected representatives do anything.

So, while I feel responsible to the rest of the world for what was done in my name, my responsibility (in a republic) really does end at the voting booth. Once they're elected, we can't really control our representative. As such, we're not entirely responsible for what they do.

:dem:

-Laelth

[annabanana]

10. Well yes...

It was done in our name, and we were unable to prevent it.

That is why we MUST have prosecution.

[Laelth]

11. Hear, hear. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[leveymg]

13. Absolutely.

Let me be the first to volunteer for jury duty.

[DiverDave]

16. Sign me up for that trial (s)

Yes, they SHOULD be prosecuted.
"Following orders" is the most fucked up excuse known to man.
Not only did we hang the perps of torture at Nuremberg, but we hung the nazi bastards that issued the orders.
When I was in basic training, after the mei lai massacre, we were told that if we felt an order, ANY order, that was morally or just plain unlawful, we were to REFUSE them and report it up the chain of command.

Those motherfuckers shouldn't get out of this, I need to teach my kids that we live in a society that is just and humane.
And I gotta look in the mirror each day and think "they did that in my name"

Mr. President, you GOTTA prosecute these sorry excuses for human beings, you HAVE TO.

[originalpckelly]

14. You're right.

"This is a republic. We elect people to act on our behalf. We don't get a say in every decision our government makes."

That's my point, we have practically no control over our government, aside from that's often overlooked.

How exactly does the government finance all this bullshit?

[MadBadger]

15. Do you have to give it a gate?

[TheKentuckian]

17. Meh...The electorate was NOT tricked

they knew what BushCo was about and enough backed them to win or at least to allow the numbers to be fudged. Hell, even for us on the other side there is the Constitutional responsibility to not allow our country to be over run by enemies of our ideals. However, most of us lack that level of conviction (even if we demand it from others).

Yeah, its our fault. Who else's fault could it be? We didn't get fooled or anything like that, we (as a nation) just have a predilection for criminal leadership and a deep desire to take the easy way out.