1. Pot Legal 2. Prostitution Legal. What Do You Think of the Netherlands?

[Mr. Ected]

Are they right, half-right, or all wrong?

I lived there for 5 years and the permissive attitude towards cannabis and prostitution seemed to work perfectly fine for their people.

Can't speak for the prostitution, but I certainly took advantage of the marijuana laws.

Would such a system work in the USA? SHOULD a Dutch-style set of laws be advanced in America?

Really curious how DU comes down on these questions.

Fire away.

[sarcasmo]

1. All right. Legalize and Tax.

[roamer65]

2. Legalization of prostitution has worked in Australia.

It's been legal and regulated there for many years. Sydney and Melbourne are wonderful cities to visit, clean and a lot less crime.

[Mr. Ected]

4. Seeing Women in Red-Rimmed Windows Seemed Altogether Dehumanizing

But seeing them huddled together drugged up on the streets of Atlanta seemed even more heinous.

[roamer65]

7. Australia does not do it that way.

I saw none of that when I walked through King's cross in Sydney. They hand out fliers for brothels. It is more like the legal bunny ranches in Nevada. But there were no street walkers in Australia that I saw. You can walk just about anywhere in Sydney at night and be safe.

I would define Australia's way of doing it as "discreet legalization".

[noamnety]

50. Everything about buying women is dehumanizing.

I have no freaking clue why some people interpret that to be progress.

[oedura]

52. Yes, buying women is dehumanizing...

...but paying one for her services is just business.

[noamnety]

55. I hope you are being sarcastic there.

Nothing dehumanizing about a man paying to stick his penis in some strange woman's vagina. It's just "a service."

[Lilith Velkor]

63. It is a service.

Whether it is dehumanizing or not is a matter of opinion, but the payment is for an act, not a person.

What does it say about somebody when they equate the entirety of a woman's being with what she does with her vagina?

[noamnety]

65. I find this view overwhelmingly discouraging.

"Whether it is dehumanizing or not is a matter of opinion"

beyond that, I really haven't the desire to continue the conversation with you. But thanks for clarifying your thoughts.

[upyourstruly]

75. Purchased the whole package

I'm married I bought the whole unit. I hardly ever get the good stuff.It may have been better just to have rented a small portion.

[immoderate]

76. Welcome to DU!

Probably just as expensive. The grass is always greener...

--imm

[Lilith Velkor]

80. If you didn't think of your wife as property, perhaps she'd fuck you more often

Try a little respect, it's what women want.

And welcome to DU. :toast:

[MadBadger]

82. What you are speaking of is slavery

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. I respect how they run things.

I think we should do the same, frankly.

But we're too nuts to try it...

Too bad.

[eShirl]

5. 1. yes ; 2. yes

[Fire1]

6. I loved the Netherlands. Always wanted to open a coffee

shop in the red light district. They've got the best beer I've ever had. I had big fun!
On the serious side. No. It will NEVER go over here. I've heard too many congressmen make that emphatically clear. They won't even CONSIDER legalizing cannabis let alone prostitution. Never happen.

[Mr. Ected]

9. Are They Issues Worth Fighting For?

Time and effort have a way of breaking down barriers, if social mores change as well.

[Fire1]

14. I think the fight has started and also won in some states re:

medicinal usage. I think legalizing weed is justifiable due to the revenue it can generate. Prostitution, not so much.

[eridani]

78. Did you visit Hill Street Blues?

Went to that one in 1996--it shared a building with a police substation, hence the name. The usual No Hard Drugs sign was in the window, and they really had a leg up on enforcing it. :)

[theoldman]

8. The advantage of making these things legal is that they can be regulated.

No system is perfect, ours just needs to be improved.

[cascadiance]

62. Might help our health care system too...

if health conditions related to pot smoking and sexually transmitted disease can be reported earlier, and be prevented more too.

That would go a long way to helping reduce health care costs....

Also might help to reduce the costs of prisons if we could have a lot of people "guilty" of victimless crimes not in prison and those guilty of more violent or other harmful crimes can be brought in instead. And we'll probably need a lot of room once we really start to do what's needed on Wall Street, etc. too!

[walldude]

10. Can't wait to go back!

Spent 2 weeks there a number of years ago, and had a ball! You know besides the joys of coffee shops, and the um.. interesting red light district, the food was amazing. I ate different food every night for 2 weeks and hadn't even scratched the surface. Armenian, Italian, Asian, German, Indian, and not a bit of it from some faux "chain". It was awesome. But the best thing was the relaxed attitude. Every local spoke a number of languages, all were very helpful and I met a few people I remain in contact with to this very day. I wish the US would take some lessons.

[Mr. Ected]

12. My Family LOVED Living In Holland

Life was simple. People were friendly and helpful. There was no such thing as a language barrier (though we embraced the language and culture and did our best to acquaint ourselves with both). We lived in a small town near The Hague, commiserated with the locals, joined in all the festivals, rode our bicycles to work and to the grocery stores. My youngest son was born in Delft, and although the hospital itself was less than stellar, the care and attention to our baby and for my wife was absolutely unparalleled. Yes, it's too crowded, a little dirty on occasion, and homes are small and expensive, but you become accustomed to it quickly and it changes you forever. I drove a car only if I had to travel a long distance; most of the time, I used a bicycle, tram, bus or train.

God yes I miss it. Wish we'd never left.

[ejpoeta]

11. i believe both should be legal and taxed. there are benefits to this for both.

with marijuana, you can move users from jails to a place of treatment. Smokers get medications and other means to quit. Marijuana users get jail. As for prostitution, you can tax it and make sure that prostitutes are tested and such. People are just trying to make a living. What other than religious reasons prevents the legalization of prostitution, i wonder. I mean, i don't really know much about the dutch system. maybe it has it's negative aspects, but I have to believe that the positives would outweigh the negatives, as people are going to do it anyway. So, have some control over it, then.

[Fumesucker]

34. "Treatment" is rarely necessary for pot smokers..

Pot is considerably less addictive than caffeine for the great majority of people.

Have you ever even heard of someone getting "treatment" for a caffeine addiction?

[ejpoeta]

41. i never did hear of anyone addicted to marijuana, except on those

kids escaping drugs commercials. i meant it more in the way it would be classified. but i hear what you are saying. i'm surprised they don't try to make caffeine like that where people need protecting from it. LOL! imagine the revolution. i don't know anyone who doesn't drink caffeine in coffee or pop. doesn't chocolate have caffeine!! LOL! good luck with that. but people vilify marijuana because it's a 'gateway' drug. i tend to think it has more benefits than negatives. but you can grow it yourself. that stuff grows anywhere. and who needs the middle man if you can do it yourself!! and then how would the pharma companies get their big money!! i had heard some had wanted to extract the beneficial components from marijuana and make it into a pill they could sell. that was years ago, but i would believe it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

13. I don't care about pot, but their policy towards prostitution is a disaster

You see it is a funny thing, it turns out the number of western european women willing to fuck strange men for money is quite small and as a result thousands of women and girls are smuggled into the Netherlands each year for prostitution. So they police still raid the brothels, just instead of looking for prostitutes and johns their looking for illegal immigrants.

And a large number of the women and girls who are traffiked for prostitution were lured with the promise of jobs as nurses, maids, cooks and other domestic work.

The idea that the sex trade can be legitimized is a fantasy when it is built almost entirely on exploitation and coercion. Unfortunately too many people form their opinions about the sex trade based on what they see on HBO and Showtime and tidbits they remember from their Classical History courses in college.

[girl gone mad]

39. They've been shutting down the red light districts for that reason.

Turns out legal prostitution meccas attract a lot of undesirable elements... gangs, human traffickers, hard drugs, child prostitutes. Then there was the flood of Eastern European immigrants willing to work for cheap, or tricked into the work, as you mentioned.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. Of course it would work.

But technically isn't pot decriminalized in the Netherlands? International treaties stupidly prohibit the legalization of marijuana. Portugal is doing just fine as well, and they have decriminalized all drugs.

[Mr. Ected]

16. I Think You're Correct. Decriminalized, Not Legalized.

But unless you're caught with a shitload of weed, the police look the other way.

The coolest thing I ever saw was the Dutch-born CEO of our company...a multinational American IT corporation...pause on the steps from our building to light up a fatty at the end of a workday. No heads turned. No inquiries followed. Just an eminently successful man living his life and injuring no one.

[The Straight Story]

17. We have a fetish for banning things (like choice) here

Sadly it comes from folks in both parties.

[Vidar]

18. Of course they're right and it works.

[Politicalboi]

19. That would be a good idea for the US

It would bring in taxes and save a lot of marriages too.

[TheKentuckian]

20. Of course we should change our ways and laws in these areas

anything else is just outright flushing money down the toilet.

Vice is the dumbest waste of resources we have. Tilting at windmills.

[anonymous171]

21. Pot first. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. You are aware that they are cutting back on both via new restrictions?

[tkmorris]

24. That's true, but

It has been my perception that the recent and proposed changes in the Netherlands policy towards the cafes and prostitution have not been due to any specific and identifiable social problems they have caused but rather have come about due to purely moralist arguments made by a few politicians.

If I am mistaken in this regard do correct me, my knowledge of events there is limited.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. Lots of stories out there as to why

One concern is that the red light district really does scare away some of the tourist and other business. Also read that the owners can get more rent from more standard businesses. Another is intoxicated patrons of the coffee shops can be very noxious. While all the reasons out there can not all be true, I tend to think its several causes and not a couple of tight ass pols.

[Fumesucker]

35. And yet the *really* "noxious" visitors tend to be soccer hooligans..

Whose drug of choice is alcohol, not pot.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. Coffee shops, not lots of reasons, one specific reason

In order to comply with national regulations, 43 out of 228 Amsterdam cafes will be closed or moved to new locations. The regulations require that cannibis cafes be a set distance away from schools with students over the age of 12.
185 shops are not affected. Many of the 43 will relocate. According to the mayor of Amsterdam Job Cohen, about 25% of tourists visit a coffee shop, and in addition the mayor says these tourists cause much less of a nuisance than tourists who drink alcohol. Much less than the drinkers, I repeat. That is, the drinkers are far more 'noxious' as well as more violent, disruptive and so on. Far more.
So there are a few facts.

[That Is Quite Enough]

23. Good ideas, but will not happen here for (at least) the forseeable future.

[MrScorpio]

25. I love the place

And I miss spending time there

Yet, I'm a married teetotaler, so my enjoyment of Holland has nothing to do with hookers and pot

[Union Yes]

27. If men could make a living at prostitution..

it'd be legal everywhere and would be this planets #1 profession.

Like almost every policy, if it doesn't benefit men it isn't legal typically.

[XemaSab]

74. What makes you think that men don't make a living at prostitution?

:shrug:

[dorkulon]

79. prostitution doesn't benefit men?

Sorry, but by your own logic it would be legal.

[Coffee and Cake]

28. Prostitution works fine in Nevada

I think our marijuana laws are absurd and we need to at least decriminalize it if not completely making it legal.

Do people grow their own in the Netherlands or do they purchase it at stores?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

51. no it doesn't work fine in Nevada, it works fine on HBO

The desert brothels are are only the thinest edge of the sex trade,

[Coffee and Cake]

66. It is not without its risks and there are proponents and opponents to it

http://prostitution.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=000120

It also boils down to rights and whether you believe someone has the right to voluntarily sell sexual favors. If you believe so, then they next logical step is to mitigate abuse from clients and pimps.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

71. that isn't the issue

The issue in Holland (and elsewhere) is the number of Dutch women interested in selling sexual favors is very, very small. Not very many people wake up one day and say to themselves, "when I grow up, I am going to blow strange men for money behind Target" as a result women are traffiked for the sex trade, many of whom are not willing participants.

And unless you happen to be shopping for ass in the same league as Eliot Spitzer, the odds of getting a Western European girl who isn't either a junky or a transvestite is pretty slim. Quite simply legal prostitution in Holland is Dutch men exploitng foreign women lured to Holland with the promise of domestic work and forced into prostitution by criminal gangs. My, how progressive.

This is the age old problem with legal prostitution, demand outstrips the supply of willing women and sexual slavery is the result as the criminal element is more than happy to fill in the gap. The injustice towards these women is doubled that when the police get involved they are promptly deported and unable to give evidence against those who traffiked them to just round up another group of foreign women. The women traffiked for sex are treated like criminals and the men who traffiked them get off with a slap on the wrist or less.

[Mr. Ected]

67. People Buy Cannabis In "Coffee Shops" in Holland

But they are also permitted to grow small amounts for personal consumption.

[seabeyond]

29. legalization of prositution doesnt work. anyone thinking it does can do a simple

google. actually educate yourself on it

[QueenOfCalifornia]

30. They should all

be tortured --- waterboarded.

(I think it should all be legal.) I am tired of watching dumb assed shit regarding drug laws and drug wars.

[TankLV]

31. The more important question is, do I EVER normally think of the Netherlands...

come to think of it, what IS Botswana up to these days?!!!

come to think of it, I USED to think about my "nether regions" a lot more, too...sigh...

[iris27]

32. 3/4 right, but overall a better system than what we've got.

Prostitution, legal or illegal, is to me just a minute fraction up from literal slavery - you are purchasing the use of someone else's body for X amount of time. And in some cases, as posters upthread have pointed out, it is still ACTUAL slavery, as girls are taken from their home countries with promises that they can work in the West as nannies or do other domestic work, but in actuality they are sold as sex slaves.

If I had my way, selling would be decriminalized, but buying (and pimping!!!) would remain illegal.

And I could pretty much care less about pot. Never tried it myself, but it appears to have some decent medical applications for those in chronic pain. And I've heard that hemp has all sorts of great uses. I'd be in favor of legalizing and taxing it. In my admittedly limited and tangential experience, alcohol is a more dangerous drug than pot.

[dysfunctional press]

49. "you are purchasing the use of someone else's body for X amount of time"

how is that any different from:

models
athletes
construction laborers

to name a few.

:shrug:

[iris27]

59. you are purchasing the efforts of their labor, NOT their body itself

demonstrating how a brand's fashions will look

the entertainment of watching a sports game

the use of a building/road/etc.


Completely a different thing.

[Lilith Velkor]

61. So a blowjob is not an effort, but a body itself

That's an incredibly bizarre way of looking at it, I must say.

[dysfunctional press]

72. you don't seem to know much about modelling...or good sex.

i pity your partners.

[LongTomH]

58. I think you have the best answer on prostitution.

Decriminalize the prostitutes; but have severe penalties for the pimps and johns. I would add: very severe penalties, up to life without parole for human trafficking.

for the johns, I think the approach used by some American cities, treating their behavior like alcoholism, would be the most productive approach. Men caught in prostitution stings should be required to seek counseling.

[dysfunctional press]

73. why should johns be required to seek counseling??

to teach them that it's wrong to want to have sex? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MurrayDelph]

33. You left off the most-important one

3. They serve french fries with mayonnaise.

[Bluenorthwest]

45. In large cone shaped servings!

Heaven...hash and chips.

[Mr. Ected]

68. And Peanut Butter Sauce (Thai-Style!)

It's an acquired taste...Patat Oorlog..."French Fry War": French fries with a spicy peanut butter sauce, mayonnaise, and onions.

My absolute fave after a night of coffee shop hopping!

[bornskeptic]

36. Horrible country, the Netherlands!

Forget pot and prostitution. The government of the Netherlands forces everyone to by health insurance from a private insurance company. What a nightmare this must be for the Dutch people! Here are the gruesome details, for those with the stomach for them.

http://takingnote.tcf.org/2008/06/the-dutch-healt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_Netherlands

This is the kind of nightmarish system Obama and the Dems in Congress want to inflict on us.

[Fumesucker]

37. From your second link..

For those who would otherwise have insufficient income, an extra government allowance is paid to make sure everyone can pay for their health care insurance.

That isn't the way it's going to work here, there won't be enough money for the government to subsidize those who cannot afford insurance, certainly not after the Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, the TARP bailout and all the other stuff that we just have to spend trillions on.

"I can envision a day when you will have to show proof of insurance at the job interview" -Hillary Clinton

Another quote from your second link..

The Netherlands has a dual-level system. All primary and curative care (i.e. the family doctor service and hospitals and clinics) is financed from private compulsory insurance. Long term care for the elderly, the dying, the long term mentally ill etc. is covered by social insurance funded from taxation. According to the WHO, the health care system in the Netherlands was 62% government funded and 38% privately funded as of 2004.

[PufPuf23]

38. The Dutch are the USA's most substantial ally save

the Brits, Canada, Australia.

Our banking system is incestuous with the Brits and Dutch.

They are one of the most intelligent civilizations but they are also infected with neocons.

IMO no one ever should have to be a prostitute for survival and pot should be a non-issue as intoxicants are part of human evolution and pot is less damaging than alcohol and tobacco.

[sampsonblk]

40. Nice place to visit...(nt)

[NashVegas]

42. Half-Right

Every Nederlander I've ever spoken to tells me the bulk of mj users are American tourists.

If you think the certified drug distributors in the US wouldn't be any more cut-throat than the CA/SA cartels, should MJ be legalized, you're sadly mistaken. The only difference between an organized crime figure and an Eli Lily stockholder is one will go after you with paperwork to keep you out of the business.

[Cid_B]

43. I met some of their law enforcement...

a few years ago during a conference. Poor bastards hated their lives.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. That's funny

I had a long conversation with three Amesterdam cops who adored their work, and spent much time asking worried questions about their counterparts in the States, and all the violent crime they had to deal with. They said they would never be police officers in the US.

[hfojvt]

47. it makes me wonder why they gave me the 3rd degree when I left

I had something like a 3 hour layover between when my train arrived and when my plane left, so I wanted so see a little bit of Amsterdam. As it turned out I did not see that much, I spent much of my time wandering around trying to get Dutch money so I could buy a coke. Didn't want to pay $5 for a half liter bottle from a street vendor.

I probably shoulda just splurged on a cab and had the cabbie show me the town. Being a cheapskate did not serve me well.

Anyway I was kinda puzzled when they seemed to give me the 3rd degree before I boarded my plane. "Where did you go? What did you do?" Like, hey, what business is that of yours Mr. Passport-inspector? All tourists have to account for their time? Or was he just required to figure out if I was taking any of that legal pot back to the USA?

[MiniMe]

48. A great place to go to a coffee house

[MajorChode]

54. Especially if you don't like coffee

[MajorChode]

53. Their food sucks

I can see why they legalized pot.

[Fendius]

56. Laws are made when we can't figure out how to "fix" the problem..

Decriminlizing something is a way to identfy a societies understanding of a problem and focusing on the solution.. People make independant decisions to make money and or do drugs, some are pushed unfortunately into those situations.. I cant tell you ive been to the Netherlands. Though in America, we base these laws around undiscovered solutions, and through money and government, manipulate these laws to work in the lawmakers defense.. The "law" is a very very dangerous tool in the wrong hands...

[GreenArrow]

57. Considering that our Pilgrim forbears

were basically kicked out of the Netherlands, for being joyless and vicious fuddy-duddys, I doubt the current Dutch common sense and essentially decent approach to pot and prostitutes would go over real well here.

[underpants]

60. Much better at baseball than anyone expected

certainly not the Dominican Republic

[johnfunk]

64. Great country!

[opihimoimoi]

69. Ya forgot NUDE BEACHes...LOL

[Mr. Ected]

70. FRIGIDLY cold nude beaches at that!

With more grandmas and grandpas than co-eds, that much I can tell you.

[Initech]

77. Just went there a couple weeks ago.

I have to say it was rather glorious. And they've definitely got the right idea. Took full advantage of the coffee shops there. The red light district on the other hand was... I have to say very intimidating though. It was weird, it was like going into a store to pay for sex. Not my kind of thing but whatever floats your boat.

[cboy4]

81. I don't smoke or hire hookers, but I love their social

standards.

[Kitty Herder]

83. Half -right. Pot, yes. Prostitution, no.

Just my two cents.